Faith vs Science

[ShaunZero]

I know, heh. Just ranting my ass off, lol.

[luxintenebrae42]

Hehe this thread is fun! I'm not an astrophysicist, but I'd like to throw my two cents in.

I don't know if this will help (the balloon example was great), but maybe imagine a room half full of people standing 1 foot apart from everyone else. Now tell them to move back a bit so that everyone is 2 feet from each other. No one has moved "toward" anything exactly but actually farther from everything because they are now 2 feet away from each other instead of 1. (And you can't say they moved toward the couch because the couch would be outside the "universe" of people.) I'm not sure if this is a good example because I didn't mull it over for very long.

Oh, and also, Aquatus, I was under the impression that we weren't yet sure how the universe would end because we weren't yet sure how much mass was in the universe? If there was too much, it would collapse; too little, it would continue expanding (Big Cold or Big Freeze or something, I forget); the perfect amount - whatever that it - and it would come to an eventual point where the universe would stop expanding but also would not collapse. Has the mass already been determined? I haven't heard anything for a while, so they might have already announced it. Unless those theories have been disproved in other ways?

[EDW74]

Hehe this thread is fun! I'm not an astrophysicist, but I'd like to throw my two cents in.

I don't know if this will help (the balloon example was great), but maybe imagine a room half full of people standing 1 foot apart from everyone else. Now tell them to move back a bit so that everyone is 2 feet from each other. No one has moved "toward" anything exactly but actually farther from everything because they are now 2 feet away from each other instead of 1. (And you can't say they moved toward the couch because the couch would be outside the "universe" of people.) I'm not sure if this is a good example because I didn't mull it over for very long.

Ok maybe not the couch but what about the walls, you did say they were in a room?

[luxintenebrae42]

Ok, ok, the people are in an empty void of nothingness. But a living room is easier to picture! (No walls allowed.)

[EDW74]

Ok, ok, the people are in an empty void of nothingness. But a living room is easier to picture! (No walls allowed.)

Ok, well I was just playing by the rules you'd established is all.

[luxintenebrae42]

All right, it's probably not the best example. That's why I'm not a teacher.

The people are the universe, nothing else.

[ShaunZero]

I don't think we can determine how much mass is in the entire universe. We only occupy a very small ammount of space.

But like I said, the people aren't going in EVERY DIRECTION if they're not headed towards where the big bang started.

If nothing is going in the direction of the where the big bang started, then surley we can figure out wich direction NOTHING is moving towards, and wouldn't that then tell us at least wich direction the middle of the universe may be?

Edited January 9, 2006 by ZeroShadow

[luxintenebrae42]

Very good point. I don't know. Have we looked at all the edges of the universe yet? I thought they had mapped them. If we have, I would think it would be possible to find the middle. I honestly don't remember, so I'll let someone else answer that.

[EDW74]

OK, if I may be abrupt, if not a little nitpicky, this is supposed to be FAITH VS SCIENCE. Not a discussion about time space continuums. So can we please get back on topic, or just move to the forum about space?

Edited January 9, 2006 by EDW74

[aquatus1]

How can things be moving in all directions and at the same time not towards the center of the universe or where the big bang started?

Perhaps it would be easier if, rather than thinking of things moving, you though of the distance between them increasing. Just like on the balloon, the dots aren't really moving, but rather the distance between them is increasing.

We don't even know where it started so who are we to say it isn't moving toward it? That doesn't add up. Am I missing something?

Actually, you just answered your own question. If we do not know where the starting position was, then we cannot claim that something is moving towards it. In all cases, the part where you are getting confused is probably my fault. Rather than saying that things are moving away from each other, which implies movement through space, I should have

said that the distance between objects, even though the objects remain stationary, is increasing.

But if the big bang was similar to a blackhole, wouldn't it have to be going at the speed of light to escape from being collapsed into itself? Light can't even escape.

The Big Bang isn't similar to a black hole.

Oh, and also, Aquatus, I was under the impression that we weren't yet sure how the universe would end because we weren't yet sure how much mass was in the universe? If there was too much, it would collapse; too little, it would continue expanding (Big Cold or Big Freeze or something, I forget); the perfect amount - whatever that it - and it would come to an eventual point where the universe would stop expanding but also would not collapse. Has the mass already been determined? I haven't heard anything for a while, so they might have already announced it. Unless those theories have been disproved in other ways?

No, you are quite correct. I only brought up the Big Crunch because Zero asked if the universe could collapse in on itself. There are quite a variety of other things that could occur in its stead.

I don't think we can determine how much mass is in the entire universe. We only occupy a very small ammount of space.

But like I said, the people aren't going in EVERY DIRECTION if they're not headed towards where the big bang started.

If nothing is going in the direction of the where the big bang started, then surley we can figure out wich direction NOTHING is moving towards, and wouldn't that then tell us at least wich direction the middle of the universe may be?

You understand now that objects in the universe are not moving towards anything, right? They are stationary, but the distance between them is increasing.

OK, if I may be abrupt, if not a little nitpicky, this is supposed to be FAITH VS SCIENCE. Not a discussion about time space continuums. So can we please get back on topic, or just move to the forum about space?

No problem with that here. I think the point has been made that science doesn't simply pull answers out of its nether regions, but rather relies on logic and objective evidence, as opposed to faith.

[Lilly]

...No problem with that here. I think the point has been made that science doesn't simply pull answers out of its nether regions, but rather relies on logic and objective evidence, as opposed to faith.

I agree. Science is basically empirical, whereas faith is metaphysical. One can't, and expect to get anywhere, argue with faith. However, in science everything is always potentially falsifiable, things are dynamic and changing, growing in scope and knowledge. The answers that science offers are very different from the answers that faith offers.

[ShaunZero]

Actually, you just answered your own question. If we do not know where the starting position was, then we cannot claim that something is moving towards it.

We can if you first say "things are moving in ALL directions".

You understand now that objects in the universe are not moving towards anything, right? They are stationary, but the distance between them is increasing.

So how exactly did mass escape the pull if it isn't even moving? How fast must you go?

Sense science uses logic, why don't you give me a logical explaination as to where the singularity was if there was no universe.

Edited January 9, 2006 by ZeroShadow

[aquatus1]

We can if you first say "things are moving in ALL directions".

I already said that better way to say it is that distance between objects is increasing, because the objects themselves are not moving.

So how exactly did mass escape the pull if it isn't even moving? How fast must you go?

Sense science uses logic, why don't you give me a logical explaination as to where the singularity was if there was no universe.

Because you don't have the physics background to understand it if I did, nor do I have the physics background to explain it in a simple manner. And I already said that we have no way of telling where the singularity was.

[ShaunZero]

I already said that better way to say it is that distance between objects is increasing, because the objects themselves are not moving.

I know you did. I was explaining why I replied to you with that question. You told me things were moving in all directions at first so that's why I asked how things can be moving towards the big bang.

[Rosemary Campbell]

In my Opinion the Destruction of the World is happening all the time through Earthquakes, Hurricanes and all sorts of Natural Disasters and most recently with the Earthquakes under the Sea that killed so many in Southeast Asia.

I believe if the World is destroyed by explosions and Fires it will be as a result of Nuclear Plants which have not been kept in good repair and so I believe we to some degree can prevent some of these things.

I know those people who preach about End of times and all those things believe god will suddenly one day get tired of looking at all the Sinners here on Earth and destroy the World and Start over but I don't hold to that idea at all and believe if the World comes to an End as we know it now it will be brought about by some of the things I write about here.

[aquatus1]

Ahh...

Did I completely miss the relevance of that?

[SG7]

faith and science wake hand and hand. God made science so we can learn what he deed.

For ex. God made man out of the apes. 7 million years to us may be one day to him or her (he or she can be what ever it wonts to be) that is what i belive

[EDW74]

THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT THE BIG BANG, IT IS ABOUT FAITH VS SCIENCE, TAKE THE BIG BANG SOMEWHERE ELSE PLEASE! Edited January 11, 2006 by EDW74

[aquatus1]

We stopped talking about the Big Bang two days ago.

[Rosemary Campbell]

faith and science wake hand and hand. God made science so we can learn what he deed.

For ex. God made man out of the apes. 7 million years to us may be one day to him or her (he or she can be what ever it wonts to be) that is what i belive

And can you prove that through Pictures and absolute proof or do you know that because a human somewhere in time wrote that?

[SG7]

And can you prove that through Pictures and absolute proof or do you know that because a human somewhere in time wrote that?

Its a part of my belifes.

[EDW74]

Its a part of my belifes.

And like all of us, our beliefs are shadows of our experiences, and therefore our values and who we are. Good job sticking to your guns. I like that.

[SG7]

And like all of us, our beliefs are shadows of our experiences, and therefore our values and who we are. Good job sticking to your guns. I like that.

Thank you my freind.