short theory

[jedi_yarael_poof]

No details about it. I heard part of this before. The thought ran through my head in Geography class.

At one time underground, there was a large body of water (under the present Atlantic Ocean) but erupted (the present Mid-Atlantic Trench) and forced apart the Pangaea and rained for 40 days & 40 nights, which killed the dinosaurs. Although dino fossils date back millions of years, could that much water and setiment stirring around hasten the fossilization to throw off carbon dating? Just an idea.

[frogfish]

As much as I would like to agree with you on the FLOOD part, I have to say this theory would not work...

How can an exploding underground "ocean" make it rain? What would make it explode? What would the ocean be made of? There is an "ocean" of magma, but nothin else.

The Mid Atlantic Ridge is a seperating region between two plates when molten rock forms new crust...not a scar of an once detonated ocean.

If water and sediment WERE stirring around, it would actually SLOW the process of fossilization, not hasten it. The sediment has to settle for fossilization to occur.

Radioactive dating would still work...

Edited January 10, 2006 by frogfish

[jedi_yarael_poof]

How can an exploding underground "ocean" make it rain? What would make it explode? What would the ocean be made of? There is an "ocean" of magma, but nothin else.

What about geysers? On a very, very large scale maybe.

Maybe if it did happen, it caused the demise of Atlantis and flooded other ancient sites that are now underwater.

Off topic, what's the scientific explanation about why the coelacanth is still the same as it was, but many scientists still believe in evolution?

By looking at your avatar and sig, you study paleontology?

Edited January 10, 2006 by jedi_yarael_poof

[draconic chronicler]

Hmmmmmmm, 40 days and nights you say? Sounds like you were attending a "Creationist bible school". But there are so many improbabilities with this. Even if you were to ignore the scienific dating techniques (and there are several), as well as the clear evolutionary lineages we see in fossil animals, science has never found mammoths and saber tooth tigers "mixed" in the same sediments as dinosaurs, as would be expected if they all lived together in a pre-Noah "Flintstonian World" (for lack of a better term).

An amusing sideline to the "creationist flood dino extinction theory" is the fact that many creationists think Noah somehow brought ferocious dinosaurs on board his ark as well, in order to explain the many "dragons" mentioned in the bible after the supposed flood extinction. Of course, serious students of ancient religion know these dragons are actually "servant and guardian creatures" to the Gods, well documented in Sumerian, Hebrew and Egyptian theologies, and prevalent in early Christian theology too, though most sects try to diguise this fact with heavy Bible editing.

Do not construe this is an attack against Judao-Christian beliefs, because the same Biblical scriptures used by the "young earth creationists", can be just as accurately interpreted to show that Noah's flood was only regional, not to mention compatibility with evolution and an earth billions of years old. In fact the creation story quite remarkably has life beginning in the sea, and humans appearing after dinosaurs (Tannyn), birds, etc, fully compatible with evolutionary ideas.

There is a multi-million dollar "creationist museum" in Kentucky now that has lifesize dino models with saddles, just like how they purport the "pre-flood" humans used to ride their dinos!

Edited January 10, 2006 by draconic chronicler

[frogfish]

Noah somehow brought ferocious dinosaurs on board his ark as well, in order to explain the many "dragons" mentioned in the bible after the supposed flood extinction. Of course, serious students of ancient religion know these dragons are actually "servant and guardian creatures" to the Gods, well documented in Sumerian, Hebrew and Egyptian theologies, and prevalent in early Christian theology too, though most sects try to diguise this fact with heavy Bible editing.

Do not go there DC or I will have to report you for being off-topic.

There is a multi-million dollar "creationist museum" in Kentucky now that has lifesize dino models with saddles, just like how they purport the "pre-flood" humans used to ride their dinos!

Tsk tsk, attcking another faith...No bashing here DC...

What about geysers? On a very, very large scale maybe.

Too make it rain 40 days and nights...very unlikely

Off topic, what's the scientific explanation about why the coelacanth is still the same as it was, but many scientists still believe in evolution?

By looking at your avatar and sig, you study paleontology?

I'll pm this to you now, but just to remind you in the future, going off-topic does not abode well

Just another word. I'm catholic, so its just a reminder again. Religion is a faith. Many things you cannot prove, but that's why its a faith. Believe.

Just to let you know, because some people here (not directed at anyone) can be very mocking of religions.

[Stalker]

The whole 40 days & 40 nights thing, is possible. The atmosphere would just have to have had a higher amount of moisture than it has now. How that's possible, I'm not sure.

[frogfish]

The whole 40 days & 40 nights thing, is possible. The atmosphere would just have to have had a higher amount of moisture than it has now. How that's possible, I'm not sure.

Its not. It's can't possibily hold enough moisture to rain 40 days, plus the saturation has to stay for it to rain.

[Kaizen]

There was no global flood. Or perhaps only the "world" Noah KNEW of was flooded, but not the whole planet? (if you think there is any trueth to the story)

(BTW, Frogfish do you believe in bioevolution even though you are Catholic?)

Edited January 11, 2006 by Kaizen

[Piney]

There was no global flood. Or perhaps only the "world" Noah KNEW of was flooded, but not the whole planet? (if you think there is any trueth to the story)

There was a lot of localized flooding about 15 to 25,000 years ago due to melting glaciers but no universal flood has been proven by science.

Lapi'che

[paladin]

How about this for consideration? Given the fact that the flood myth is univeral amongst all civilizations, there is probably a reason why. Things to remember when considering this topic. At its most primitive, any society will lcuster at a water source that will support wild life and agriculture. That means that most primitive societies will cluster around rivers, lakes, ponds, streams, oceans, inland seas, etc. What doe they all have in common? They all have flood plains associated with them. Given that, flooding is a problem. That in and of itself is reason for flood myths. However, most of the myths speak of somewhere around 40 days and nights of rain. With that in mind, what could cause it, short of a whim of God? How about a meteor strike in an area near one of the poles? Or, a large volcanic eruption? Think on the scale of the super volcano that is under Yellowstone National Park. Either type of event would throw a massive cloud of dust into the atmosphere which would result in massive rainstorms and possible super hurrincanes. This coupled with the fact that early civilizations would have been living in low lying areas = story of a massive flood. Then there is the whole theory of the earthen damn that separated the Meditteranean and the Black Sea rupturing. In other words, take your pick of any number of possible natural disasters. Which if you believe in intelligent design, could have been kicked off by God in the first place.

[frogfish]

Or, a large volcanic eruption? Think on the scale of the super volcano that is under Yellowstone National Park. Either type of event would throw a massive cloud of dust into the atmosphere which would result in massive rainstorms and possible super hurrincanes.

Why, humidity would be the same...no more rain than normal, PLUS if it did rain, it will be acidic.

How about a meteor strike in an area near one of the poles

What will that do? A tsunami? That only affects coasts?

That means that most primitive societies will cluster around rivers, lakes, ponds, streams, oceans, inland seas, etc. What doe they all have in common? They all have flood plains associated with them. Given that, flooding is a problem

Its very unlikely it will be on a universal scale like that.

Given the fact that the flood myth is univeral amongst all civilizations

Really? Do you have references?

[draconic chronicler]

Flood myths are prevalent in most cultures, but they are not always the same myth. Sometimes it is rain, sometimes rivers and seas swell. Because flooding is a traumatic human event, it is logical sometime in the past of every culture there will be a memorable flood that will form the basis of a flood legend. Also it is clear flood and other stories are taken from other cultures. The Hebrew flood story seems to have been derived from the sumerian one, just as the eden story.

[frogfish]

No worldwide flood...sorry

[Exterminator]

IF there was a flood which killed Dinosaurs.., then Why Cockroaches are still alive? I mean Cockroaches are also Prehistoric creatures, they should've been killed too...

Edited January 20, 2006 by Exterminator

[frogfish]

A flood never killed the dinosaurs.....

Edited January 20, 2006 by frogfish

[alteclancing]

I have a simple theory to the Flood Story.

During that time, the north and the south pole began melting due to climate change. Massive global ice melting flooded the islands and coastal areas, and some inlands. It literally changed the map of the Earth at that time.

The destruction does not really comes from the flood itself, but through massive tidal waves - like the Asian Tsunami, but at a greater scale. The moon's distance must have been at that time very close to Earth to create massive spring tides and king tides.

Quote:

The Proxigean Spring Tide is a rare, unusually high tide. This very high tide occurs when the moon is both unusually close to the Earth (at its closest perigee, called the proxigee) and in the New Moon phase (when the Moon is between the Sun and the Earth). The proxigean spring tide occurs at most once every 1.5 years.

http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/...oon/Tides.shtml

Adding to the calamity, there must have been massive Volcanic eruption and massive Earthquakes in the depths of the sea and on land to have caused massive waves.

Combining all these forces, you have a very violent wave going around the globe, unrelentlessly and without mercy. Gigantic tsunami powered by powerful eruptions, earthquakes and the pull of the Moon.

Everything on the Earth is destroyed.

We should not view flooding, as just a simple raising of water, people can always get a log and float and survive. However, I see this flooding as a massive wave going around the Earth to wipe out everything.

You can see this effect when you fill a pail with water. You swing it around and the water splashed about violently. See how the waves also moves the pail due to the weight of the water. Imagine that on a larger scale when billions of tons of water charging at you at supersonic speed and at an incredible height as high as mount everest. You're gone. Pulverised. Every civilization wiped out and pulverised. Ever played with a high pressure washer? See how it pulverise a wall?

The speed of the Asian Tsunami Wave: The wave travels across the ocean at speeds from 500 to 1,000 km/h.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsunami

And as written:

Genesis 7:11-12, "In the six hundredth day of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month-on that day the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened. And rain fell on the earth for forty days and forty nights. "

These verse suggest massive volcanic eruptions(bursts) happening at the great deep around the globe.

http://www.amnh.org/education/resources/rf.../volcanoes.html

The springs of the great deep is this:

http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/dynamic/exploring.html

Deep Sea Vents:

http://wonderclub.com/WorldWonders/VentsHistory.html

According to what is written in that verse, it is accurate. How did the Bible know that there is a spring at a great deep? Did they have a submarine back then? According to USGS, it was only in 1977 that scientist discovered this spring at a great depth of 2.5KM.

When the great deep burst forth through a violent volcanic eruption, it brought with it huge volume of water and shoot it up to the sky so high. The pressure must have been so enormous! It must have looked like a great gigantic fountain / geysers in the middle of the ocean. So high the burst went, it reached the atmosphere and formed massive clouds and formed rain and hail.

A big eruption in the deep like this, will create monstrous tsunamis, dwarfing the tsunami that happened in Asia. With such massive force, the Earth at that time will be wobbling badly like a drunkard. I believe the geographic North pole at that time would have changed, maybe moved somewhere near the equator. Our geographic North pole today could have been the equator before the flood. The massive force basically changed the position. I also believe, with such great force, the plates moved so much so that it formed mountains, canyons, valleys and etc. within a short period of time. Just study the tsunami that happened in Asia, it literally moved the islands by about 100 ft!

Quote:

More spectacularly, there was 10 m (33 ft) movement laterally and 4-5 m (13-16 ft) vertically along the fault line. Early speculation was that some of the smaller islands southwest of Sumatra may have moved southwest by up to 20 m (66 ft). There were also calculations that the northern tip of Sumatra, which is on the Burma Plate (the southern regions are on the Sunda Plate), may have moved up to 36 m (118 ft) southwest. Since movement was vertical as well as lateral, some coastal areas may have been moved to below sea level. The Andaman and Nicobar Islands appear to have shifted southwest by around 4 m (13 ft), according to GPS data.

In February 2005, the Royal Navy vessel HMS Scott surveyed the sea bed around the earthquake zone, which varies in depth between 1,000 m (3,300 ft) and 5,000 m (16,500 ft) west of Sumatra. The survey, conducted using a high-resolution multi-beam sonar system, revealed that the earthquake had made a huge impact on the topography of the sea bed. *It had created large thrust ridges, about 1,500 m high, which have collapsed in places to produce large landslides several kilometers across. One landslide consisted of a single block of material some 100 m (300 ft) high and 2 km (1.25 mi) long. The force of the displaced water was such that individual blocks of rock, massing millions of tons apiece, were dragged as much as 10 km (7 mi) across the sea bed. *A newly-formed oceanic trench several kilometres wide was also found in the earthquake zone.[19]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Indian_Ocean_earthquake

Quote:

Obliging deep-sea volcanoes erupt while scientists watch

WASHINGTON - Hoping to learn more about undersea volcanoes, scientists sent a camera-equipped submarine down to take a look. They got more than they bargained for, witnessing a deep-sea eruption.

"At first we really didn't understand what was going on," said Bob Embley, chief scientist on the mission, which involved nearly three dozen researchers.

"We were seeing billowing clouds coming up and turning yellow. There was sulfur and rocks were flying out," said Embley, an oceanographer with the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration's Pacific Marine Environmental Laboratory. "We realized we were the first to witness a deep-sea volcano during an eruptive episode."

http://www.sptimes.com/2004/06/13/Worldand...p_sea_vol.shtml

Edited April 12, 2006 by alteclancing

[frogfish]

Thing is, a tsunami wouldn't be able to fully cover all the landmasses...Something else must of killed the dinosaurs-an asteroid!

[alteclancing]

Thing is, a tsunami wouldn't be able to fully cover all the landmasses...Something else must of killed the dinosaurs-an asteroid!

Yes, I know. It won't cover all the landmasses if we consider today's map. I beleive that the Earth before the flood was one big landmass called the pangea, a large supercontinent.

http://geology.com/pangea.htm

I theorized during the flood, massive earthquakes and volcanoes as I have described could have moved this one huge plate of landmass below sea level, so much so that with the assistance of the tsunami and rain flooded the whole area.

[frogfish]

Actually, Pangea spilt up before dinosaurs evolved...There were about 3-4 landmasses near the end of the Cretaceous. Even then, the landmasses still wouldn't flood...

[alteclancing]

Remember how the Asian Tsunami apparently moved plates and islands within a short period of time and not millions of years? Some scientist thought it was impossible.

I believe during the flood, this one huge super plate colapsed below sea level due to the powerful earthquake and volcanic eruption in the ocean and land happening during that time. Imagine a dinnerplate submerged in the sink. I believe this is what happened during the flood.

Even when the rain stopped, there are still massive earthquakes happening due to the plates and splitted land masses colliding to form new land masses and mountains which eventually comes out of the water at great heights. Some of the water trapped in these newly formed mountains, formed lakes and water falls above sea level.

Most scientists believe this could not have taken place at a short time, but in hundreds of millions of years. New evidence suggest that this is not so when the Asian Tsunami happened. That Earthquake of magnitude of 9.3 made a 1.5KM high thrust ridges!! Imagine that happening at a short time!

[FrothyDog]

there's a number of problems with this theory.

i'll start with volcanoes:

1. highly explosive volcanoes happen in areas of continental, not oceanic crust

a. the low silica content of oceanic crust does not hold a lot of dissolved gases

b. the thin oceanic crust cannot support a magma chamber large enough for the volcano to provide worldwide devestation.

2. highly explosive volcanoes happen in subduction zones, not in the middle of an oceanic plate.

plates:

1. we see the earthquake and resulting changes as rapid, but the massive release of energy takes a long time to build. it is only released when the pressure overcomes friction. massive movements such as this one can take hundreds of thousands of years for the energy to build.

2. because continental crust is significantly less dense than oceanic crust, it cannot physically "sink".

rock record:

1. for massive rainfall to erode a continent this much, it would take an enormous amount of time. the erosional environment would leave a tremendous gap in the fossil record. no such gap exists.

2. the subsequent flooding described would cause a universally marine depositional environment, and again, no such one exists.

3. rapid flooding on a worldwide scale would cause non-adjacent facies to overlie each other, which would violate walther's law on a massive scale. no such recorded voilations exist.

water and weather:

1. the resulting massive cloud cover would change the albedo of the earth, causing glaciation. glaciation would actually lower the sea level.

2. ocean water did not cause lakes and waterfalls above sea level. (well, not directly: it happens through evaporation and precipitation). lakes occur where the surface intersects with the water table, and waterfalls where there is a steep drop. the water all comes from runoff of rainfall.

3. orogeny happens too slowly for water to get trapped within a mountain.

4. igneous and metamorphic rocks tend to be aquicludes, and therefore do not hold water very well.

5. wind and sun (evaporation) would not cause global floodwaters to recede. where would the water go? what goes up must come down.

tsunamis:

1. terrestrial earthquakes do not cause tsunamis: tsunamis occur when an deep sea earthquake displaces an entire column of water. without a column of water above it, as in a terrestrial rift zone, a tsunami will not happen.

2. no tsunami is massive enough to cover a continent, let alone a supercontinent. even though the energy released in the indian ocean was enormous, the tsunami only hit the fringe of the continent. a tsunami large enough to cover all land would require an energy massive enough to tear the earth itself apart.

whew! that took a while.

[frogfish]

Along with what Frothy said, Pangea broke up BEFORE the dinosaurs

Very good points Frothy.

[fantazum]

No details about it. I heard part of this before. The thought ran through my head in Geography class.

At one time underground, there was a large body of water (under the present Atlantic Ocean) but erupted (the present Mid-Atlantic Trench) and forced apart the Pangaea and rained for 40 days & 40 nights, which killed the dinosaurs. Although dino fossils date back millions of years, could that much water and setiment stirring around hasten the fossilization to throw off carbon dating? Just an idea.

there didnt need to be a large body of liquid water beneath the land masses. The Earth was formed from space debris most of which, if not actual ice, was rock which had water molecules in it. this mass of material coalesced and eventually became the Earth. Much of the material that makes up this world contains water either bound up chemically within the rocks or as liquid trapped within the geology ,deep within the crust and mantle. Volcanic action releases this water into the atmosphere which then falls back to the ground. I suspect that it was this volcanic action on a gigantic scale that produced the large volumes of liquid water on the surface.

Tectonic plate action produces volcanic events and if the plates in the mid atlantic did undergo a cataclysmic shifting then there would indeed have been cataclysmic volcanic action which would have released vast amounts of water into the atmosphere and this could have fallen as rain....but for how long is anyone's guess.

I also believe that the repeated mass extinctions down thru the life of this planet were caused by this type of cataclysmic volcanic action which I also believe will occur again, many times, in the future.

The flood legend is common to all cultures and religions not just the jews and christians.Even the ancient Egyptians incorporated a flood legend within their folklore, which may have influenced the designers of the Pyramids to produce a shape ideally suited to resist a future flood.

Fast fossilization CAN occur under particular conditions. I suggest you google for more information but here's a quick link: http://shum.huji.ac.il/~por/icz_xviii/abstracts/Briggs.html

[frogfish]

[RamboIII]

this theory is highly unprobable. Besides there is overwhelming evidence saying that the dinos were killed by the asteroid, which is scientifically much more likely