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cyrus11

what is the greatest trick

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LoopyLou

Numbers 31:7 - 18....War does not justify what God and Moses ordered! :devil: Is this the true face of Jehovah?

Thanks Mythra.

Well God is a jealous God..He says that himself..but its righteous jealousy. He wanted to get rid of all those that were causing the Israelites to turn away from Him. Back in those days war was an understood way of life..until Forgiveness came (Jesus)..thats how things were done. I can imagine how those girls must have felt when they were taken..but everyone had had a chance to choose God and they had gone against Him. Until you understand the Love and Justice of God..you wont be able to understand Righteous jealousy.

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Yelekiah

Again, no point in being jealous and "complaining" about it if he is all-knowing. Nor should he be concerned about who follows him or not if he is all-knowing. Jealousy in a way to me, implies that he isn't.

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Mythra

Sorry, that is not righteousness, that is pure evil..Ahuru Mazda never did anything like that, he is the shining example of what to expect from a loving God. Jehovah must be the equivalent of Angra Mainyu, the God of this world, the Evil God, the Advisary! That is the only explanation that I can come up with, but then what can you expect of a religion that is a flawed copy of Zoroasterism?

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LoopyLou

Again, no point in being jealous and "complaining" about it if he is all-knowing. Nor should he be concerned about who follows him or not if he is all-knowing. Jealousy in a way to me, implies that he isn't.

But He wants everyone to follow Him..thats the point. Whether He knows that people will or people wont. I guess thats just the way I interpret it.

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Yelekiah

If he wanted everyone to follow him, loopy, Mr. Omnipotent God would have done just that, instead of giving everybody a "free will". But he didn't. And if he is all-knowing, he shouldn't "want" people to follow him, because he'd know who would and who wouldn't. He's all-knowing, remember? Personally, I don't think so. But a lot of people believe that.

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LoopyLou

If he wanted everyone to follow him, loopy, Mr. Omnipotent God would have done just that, instead of giving everybody a "free will". But he didn't. And if he is all-knowing, he shouldn't "want" people to follow him, because he'd know who would and who wouldn't. He's all-knowing, remember? Personally, I don't think so. But a lot of people believe that.

Yeah sure, its all different opinions :) ..mine is that its BECAUSE He is Love that He gave us free will. If you imagine liking someone and wanting them to like you too but you know they never will..it still doesnt stop you from wanting it to happen.

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Yelekiah

Not really the point I was making. Why can't he just take away that jealous quality? And just be pure love? To me it's because God is a synthesis, and like zandore has shown many times, he creates evil. But how could he be all-knowing if he is concerned about petty things and being jealous? <----- You don't necessarily have to answer that.

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draconic chronicler

Zephyr, Zandore, like I said before, I am not making ANY of this stuff up. The Zorastrian scriptures called the Dinkard state quite emphatically that the God of the Jews is a fearsome and huge dragon named Zohac. I believe his is also the one that is supposed to devour a third of mankind at the end of days in the scriptures St. John ripped off to make his Revelation. But St. John changes this to 200 million fire and brimstone spewing dragons ridden by what are probably angels which seems a bit more realistic than just one giant Godzillaesque dragon. But then, if that one dragon is Jehovah, maybe he could eat 4 billion or so people. I don't recall there being a "time limit".

Whether you call Satan and Ahriman Gods or not, it is just wordgames. Those dualistic religions like Christianity and Zorastrianism have made them "gods" in everthing but name to explain why there is this perceived struggle between good and evil in the world, that has gone on for thousands of years.

As far as Jesus comparing himself to the fiery flying serpent, I am very surprised Zandore if you don't remember that scripture from Sunday School.

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AnuKabal

There are also many things that I could say they copied from my beliefs. But I don't know if theirs is right or not so I can only guess.

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Yelekiah

If they copied from your beliefs and they are right, that means that your belief is right too, if not partially.

Edited by Yelekiah

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Beckys_Mom

There are also many things that I could say they copied from my beliefs. But I don't know if theirs is right or not so I can only guess.

I don't believe in your beliefs(from what you have posted about it) BUT I DO find your beliefs rather intresting

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Sherapy

I don't believe in your beliefs(from what you have posted about it) BUT I DO find your beliefs rather intresting

This is an example of embracing others no matter what finding a way to be a bridge and this is my friend who I'm learning from too :D Namaste Sheri

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LoopyLou

Not really the point I was making. Why can't he just take away that jealous quality? And just be pure love? To me it's because God is a synthesis, and like zandore has shown many times, he creates evil. But how could he be all-knowing if he is concerned about petty things and being jealous? <----- You don't necessarily have to answer that.

Because its not a bad jealousy. According to the Christian Bible God made us..therefore He has every right to do what He did/does. People who dont or do acknowledge God is NOT a petty matter to God. Just because you know something is or isnt going to happen doesnt stop you from wanting it any other way.

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Yelekiah

A good jealousy. That really isn't justifiable, like divine anger. There is no point in being jealous.

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Beckys_Mom

Try telling that to my sister <_<

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zandore
Of course God can do anything..good or bad..He just chooses NOT to do evil because He is the ultimate Love.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Epicurus (341–270 B.C.), Greek philosopher"

Use headphones or speaker for this link: Jesus Loves The Little Children

He's saing that if He wanted to He could do absolutely anything but because He's altogether good..it's against His nature.
Again a limiting facor on your imaginary God!

An evil bloody God at that! :yes::yes::yes:

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mako
God made us..therefore He has every right to do what He did/does.

If we were speaking of tools, toys, furnishings or appliances, I would agree with you. We are, however, speaking of living creatures that supposedly he imbued with some of his attributes (a soul); that is to say, "in his image". To summarily destroy, torment or otherwise harm these creations would be tantamount to pure evil, just as it would be for these creations to destroy, torment or otherwise harm other creations. :yes:

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101

If we were speaking of tools, toys, furnishings or appliances, I would agree with you. We are, however, speaking of living creatures that supposedly he imbued with some of his attributes (a soul); that is to say, "in his image". To summarily destroy, torment or otherwise harm these creations would be tantamount to pure evil, just as it would be for these creations to destroy, torment or otherwise harm other creations. :yes:

Well imo the human being tortured like you say is not necessarily being tortured. Because in all reality it is free will that allows us to be both good and evil- which God created. If we can freely choose to do evil then we can also freely choose to do good. If God allows the devil to tempt us with our desires it is not bad. It only gives us a test. If we are tested we will eventually know what is really happening. It is when we should use discernment and know whether it is something that will harm us. If we choose to do something that harms us- we are actually torturing ourselves. We cannot blame God for everything. It is just easier to place blame on someone other then ourselves.

:wub:

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101

If I may butt in here. Only in Job does Satan ask permission for anything. Job is a recognized pseudepigraph written by Maccabean scribes in the 1st or 2nd century BCE. :yes:

Or maybe it is not revelant to add that satan asked permission in other areas of the Bible. It could be that some of the stuff is just not included because it was not needed. ;)

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zephyr

Zephyr, Zandore, like I said before, I am not making ANY of this stuff up. The Zorastrian scriptures called the Dinkard state quite emphatically that the God of the Jews is a fearsome and huge dragon named Zohac. I believe his is also the one that is supposed to devour a third of mankind at the end of days in the scriptures St. John ripped off to make his Revelation. But St. John changes this to 200 million fire and brimstone spewing dragons ridden by what are probably angels which seems a bit more realistic than just one giant Godzillaesque dragon. But then, if that one dragon is Jehovah, maybe he could eat 4 billion or so people. I don't recall there being a "time limit".

Whether you call Satan and Ahriman Gods or not, it is just wordgames. Those dualistic religions like Christianity and Zorastrianism have made them "gods" in everthing but name to explain why there is this perceived struggle between good and evil in the world, that has gone on for thousands of years.

As far as Jesus comparing himself to the fiery flying serpent, I am very surprised Zandore if you don't remember that scripture from Sunday School.

Zohak, or Zahhak is not the god of the Jews according to ancient Persian mythology and the Avesta, the holy book of the Zorastrians. Zohak was a tyranic ruler that managed to overthrow Jamshid who was an ancient mythical king during whose wise reign, the world lived in absolute justice and peace, in other words, the Mondus Idealis. Zohak had snakes coming out of his shoulders, and guided by Ahriman, he installed a reign of terror on earth. Of course, Zohak was overthrown by the legendary king Fereydoon and his ally, Kaveh the Blacksmith, who were aided by the people and AhuraMazda himself. Zohak is supposed to be the eternal prisoner of fire in Mount Damavand (a volcano north east of Tehran).

What we call Ahriman is not 'word games', it is putting things where they belong, and Ahriman doesn't belong to the god category. :no:

Zorasterism is not a dualistic religion since they believe in only one god and that's AhuraMazda.

The existance of good and evil does not mean the existance of two gods. Good and evil co-exist in the monotheist universe without a struggle, in fact they are each others complement and could not exist alone. Imagine a world where everything was good and we didn't have to make any choices, we wouldn't even recognize and appreciate the good since we had no evil to measure it against. We would cease to exist as an intelligent being who is offered the choices and the free will to choose. So if there was no good or evil, there would be no man as we know the creature anyway. I think the struggle is more within us than between imaginary gods and flaming dragons in heavens over our fate. :innocent:

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mr. E

I've personally got to say that there is no way we can understand, or hope to understand, or even effectively speculate the true nature of God. A being that created life or the universe or whatever it is that being created (i don't pretend to know) is not going to make sense to the conventionality of our human minds. that would be like ants trying to understand people. something that would have to be infinitely greater than humans (great enough to create existence perhaps) would not be on the same level as humans, therefore, our kinds of rules and ideologies would not apply to God.

Those people who have something against God because their lives perhaps didn't go the way they wanted or because something terrible happened in their lives have no authority to call God evil or even to judge God according to human ideologies. That would be like calling a tornado evil for destroying a house. tornadoes aren't framed by the same standards we humans frame ourselves with.

Back to the analogy with humans and ants: i wonder how many people have stepped on ants and killed them and never even know it? would that not be evil?

Perhaps the natural disasters and the seemingly senseless deaths of innocent people are part of a greater plan, one that we can't understand beyond the fact that it seems wrong that innocent people die. because no one knows what happens after death, how do we know that dying is such a bad thing? how can we then be mad at God for letting people die, if we don't know for certain that death is bad?

My basic point here, which i know i travelled away from a bit, is that God or whatever being behind creation can't be judged because man does not have the capacity to understand an omnipotent being. Those who are too prideful to admit that they can't understand something and aren't in total control of their lives are the people who have a problem with God, or creation, or whatever you want to call it.

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zandore

If I may butt in here. Only in Job does Satan ask permission for anything. Job is a recognized pseudepigraph written by Maccabean scribes in the 1st or 2nd century BCE. :yes:

Or maybe it is not revelant to add that satan asked permission in other areas of the Bible. It could be that some of the stuff is just not included because it was not needed. ;)

Job 42:11

Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.

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draconic chronicler

It is in the Dinkard, Zephyr, but maybe you don't know what that is. The online Jewish Encyclopedia will give you the exact verse. And Zohac is referred to as a "dragon" in many other sources as well. Perhaps the Zorastrian religion in the past few hundred years have edited all the dragons out of their theology, just as many Christian sects have edited them out of the Bible. But I assure you they are there, in the original scriptures of both religions.

And yes, most comparitive religion classes cite Zorastrianism as the classic example of a dualistic religion. Whether or not you call Ahriman (and his christian dragon-clone Satan) "gods" or not, these religions still give them god-like powers in their ability to "reign" over the earth for thousands of years until finally after letting mankind suffer all that time, the "Good" God finally decides to punish them....... give me a break. It is no wonder zorastrianism is virtually a dead religion now, and why many Christian relgions are dismissing the whole Satan and dualistic nonsense. This scenario simply defies all reason and logic, and in fact,contradicts the teachings of the old testament.

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zephyr
It is in the Dinkard, Zephyr, but maybe you don't know what that is. The online Jewish Encyclopedia will give you the exact verse. And Zohac is referred to as a "dragon" in many other sources as well. Perhaps the Zorastrian religion in the past few hundred years have edited all the dragons out of their theology, just as many Christian sects have edited them out of the Bible. But I assure you they are there, in the original scriptures of both religions

I think your mistake is to see Persian mythology through an online Jewish Encyclopedia, and take that source as the only reliable and correct one, while there is, for example, the Shahnameh (The book of kings), of Ferdowsi, which is the main source of Persian mythology. There is, of course, the Avesta itself.

Zohak, known as 'The Snake Shoulders', was a man and not a god according to those sources, neither was he a dragon. He was bewitched by Ahriman, and could have horrible snakes come out of his shoulders.

And yes, most comparitive religion classes cite Zorastrianism as the classic example of a dualistic religion

If by dualism it is meant the existance of the concept of 'good' and 'evil', fine; but it would be in violation of Zorasterian, and other forms of monotheism if that means the existance of two equally powerful gods. Ahriman is certainly not regarded as having as much power as Ahura.

Whether or not you call Ahriman (and his christian dragon-clone Satan) "gods" or not, these religions still give them god-like powers in their ability to "reign" over the earth for thousands of years until finally after letting mankind suffer all that time, the "Good" God finally decides to punish them....... give me a break.

Satan is not a 'dragon-clown' of Ahriman, I think those are two different names for the same nasty character. Having some god-like powers doesn't necessarily make a god out of someone. Look; we have some powers of god as well, but thank god, we're not gods. That's why Ahriman is not a god, although he might have some god given powers that he uses in his own negative ways.

You don't need to be a god to reign over the earth either. In the mythology at least, kings like Jamsheed (Jam) have ruled over what was regarded as the 'world', but they were merely men. So, why couldn't the tyranic rulers, such as Zohak have done it? I don't think it was god that decided to end the rule of Zohak. It was the people who were fed up with the terror and the injustice. Kaveh, the Blacksmith, who helped Fereydoon overthrow Zohac, represents exactly that, the will of the people for a change from evil into good. AhuraMazda only helped them achieve that because they prayed to him and asked for his help. He sent Anahita, the guardian of prosperity and rebirth to their help.

It is no wonder zorastrianism is virtually a dead religion now,

I don't think many would agree with that. Although small in numbers, there are Zorasterian communities in Iran and elsewhere. There are active Zorastrian temples in Iran as well, and look, we have Mythra here! ;) I wouldn't call this religion 'virtually dead', but the most ancient surviving monotheist religion that there is.

This scenario simply defies all reason and logic, and in fact,contradicts the teachings of the old testament.

All the monotheist religions I'm familiar with have the concept of Satan inherent in them, not as a god, but as an evil character. This is the case from the ancient Zorasterism, to not so ancient Islam. The whole concept of monotheism might defy reason and logic for some, but the existance of 'good' and 'evil' along with the existance of a unique, universal god is by no means in any logical contradiction within the concept itself. The idealogies that regard Satan as a god, opposed to the good 'god', and with equal powers, can not be classed as monotheist.

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LoopyLou

I've personally got to say that there is no way we can understand, or hope to understand, or even effectively speculate the true nature of God. A being that created life or the universe or whatever it is that being created (i don't pretend to know) is not going to make sense to the conventionality of our human minds. that would be like ants trying to understand people. something that would have to be infinitely greater than humans (great enough to create existence perhaps) would not be on the same level as humans, therefore, our kinds of rules and ideologies would not apply to God.

Those people who have something against God because their lives perhaps didn't go the way they wanted or because something terrible happened in their lives have no authority to call God evil or even to judge God according to human ideologies. That would be like calling a tornado evil for destroying a house. tornadoes aren't framed by the same standards we humans frame ourselves with.

Back to the analogy with humans and ants: i wonder how many people have stepped on ants and killed them and never even know it? would that not be evil?

Perhaps the natural disasters and the seemingly senseless deaths of innocent people are part of a greater plan, one that we can't understand beyond the fact that it seems wrong that innocent people die. because no one knows what happens after death, how do we know that dying is such a bad thing? how can we then be mad at God for letting people die, if we don't know for certain that death is bad?

My basic point here, which i know i travelled away from a bit, is that God or whatever being behind creation can't be judged because man does not have the capacity to understand an omnipotent being. Those who are too prideful to admit that they can't understand something and aren't in total control of their lives are the people who have a problem with God, or creation, or whatever you want to call it.

Very well written! Cool post! :tu:

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