"Shouting in the jungle"

[Hazzard]

Earthlings haven't made many deliberate broadcasts to extraterrestrials, but in 1974, as part of a ceremony at the economy-sized Arecibo radio telescope, the observatory staff arranged to beam a three-minute message to a few hundred thousand stars in the constellation of Hercules.

The message consisted of a simple picture showing the structure of our solar system and the structure of ourselves DNA and its chemical building blocks. Innocuous enough.

What was not so innocuous was the reaction. Englands Astronomer Royal was aghast at the thought of our freelance pinging of unknown galactic inhabitants. Despite the fact that the message was short and directed to a globular cluster 21,000 light-years distant, he felt that we might be endangering ourselves by "shouting in the jungle."

So,what do you think.

Given the brevity and remote target of this broadcast, such concerns were surely overwrought. But the point is worth considering: Would anyone deliberately beam high-powered signals into space? Is that realy a good idea,granted we wont live to see or witness the effect of the outcome,but some one will be here.Can we assume that extraterrestrial societies would broadcast in ways that would mark their location as plainly as a flag on a golf green?

[mr. E]

Yeah, that seems kind of risky to me. as much as there is the remote chance that such signals might bring about communication with peaceful, intellectual civilizations (remote chance), there's an equal chance that it might be alerting a more advanced, warlike civilization to the presence of a less-developed planet (Earth). Now, i know that seems very paranoid, and is a view no doubt fueled by alien movies, but the notion that any race we might discover in the cosmos is going to be peaceful is equally realistic (or unrealistic, however you want to view it). i think the fact that the signals we send now will only affect our future generations is an irresponsible action to take. it has the potential to be like lighting a fuse and then walking away without seeing what happens, and leaving it to whatever unlucky person should happen to walk past later.

But basically, there's no telling what results sending a signal will procure, if any at all. it has the same potential to be beneficial or harmful, but the same could be said about any scientific endeavor. i'm sure the world would probably be better off if no one had invented the atom bomb, but it happened. In regards to the signals, i guess we'll basically just have to wait and see what happens.

[Hazzard]

Yeah, that seems kind of risky to me. as much as there is the remote chance that such signals might bring about communication with peaceful, intellectual civilizations (remote chance), there's an equal chance that it might be alerting a more advanced, warlike civilization.

I agree,and even today, humans (who are a long way from being able to make sporting trips to other star systems) dont rely on predation much. We farm our food, and soon well manufacture it. Killing as the Predators do, is no longer considered socially acceptable in most circles. Real Predators, who must be many thousands of years ahead of us, have presumably moved beyond this.Presumably.

Edited January 20, 2006 by hazzard

[Unlimited]

neat topic ...universal xenophobias common....you never know what your gonna get.

[vertigoflow]

OMG!

That's like, mailing out a catalouge of zebra's to a pack of lions.

"THEY" get it, rub their chin with a tenticle and say, "Now we know what they look like, where they live and the composition of their DNA. Just gotta find a recipe that calls for it and we can swoop in and harvest the whole bunch"

[Super Pancake]

wooooooo we should be concerned of the klingons getting signals from us from globular cluster 21,000 light-years away and by the time it gets their and they respond we will be so primitive compared to them to because obviously 21,000 years from now their won't be any advances in our own technology.

[mklsgl]

Although it's evident that the such didn't work out very well here on Earth, we can only hope for the opposite as we endeavor to find intellectual life elsewhere.

[NME_locus]

well, bring it on, we are ready for anyone. Leave Rosie O'Donnell, Howard Stern, Dennis Rodman and the rest of the weirdos including George Bush and Clinton as bait for our guest.......

no worries as they will return those weirdos back to us and will never even come back again.

[Murdison]

well, bring it on, we are ready for anyone. Leave Rosie O'Donnell, Howard Stern, Dennis Rodman and the rest of the weirdos including George Bush and Clinton as bait for our guest.......

no worries as they will return those weirdos back to us and will never even come back again.

Well, we'll have to vote Rodman out of the Big Brother House first then you can have him back..? He is currently residing in the t.v interactive house with a load of other fruit'n'nutters who have'nt got a Scooby..!

[Templar]

Too quick to assume predation, could actually alert other non sport travelers to other star systems. Maybe we will find other solo rock dwellers like ourselves

[shikon1]

who sends out into space what our dna is and what its made of? :angry2:

thats like implanting eveyone with a bomb and giving the detonator to hitler or someone like that

Edited January 21, 2006 by shikon1

[Hazzard]

who sends out into space what our dna is and what its made of? :angry2:

Thats not our biggest problem if we are scared of our neighbors. Its relatively easy to detect biology in space. How easy would it be for them to learn of our existence? If theyve already built planet-finding telescopes, comparable to, or slightly better than, the one that NASA will be hefting into orbit in the next dozen years, then they could detect the Earth. With substantially larger telescopes, they could find our planet from hundreds or even thousands of light-years distance. Not only that, but they could also spectroscopically sample the light reflected from our atmosphere, and learn that it has large quantities of oxygen and methane, tell-tale markers of biology.If we found another planet with the right conditions and life on it we would probably do anything to get our butts overe there.We might get the answer sooner than expected,after all they could be closer than the constalation Hercules.

[Lilly]

Hazzard is right, any ETs with sufficiently advanced technology would easily be able to tell that there is life on our planet. Earth stands out, quite frankly, like a sore thumb! The burning question actually is; Are there any sufficiently advanced ET civilizations out there who have noticed us yet, and even of more interest, do any of these civilizations have the ability to get from wherever they are to where we are?

The 'shouting in the jungle' analogy just doesn't hold up. We're already (without any further action needed upon our part) a glowing neon sign saying, "life is here" to anyone with the technology to observe the galaxy! Interesting thought, huh?

[Hazzard]

Fact is, we’ve occasionally sent deliberate messages to the stars. For example, there was the plaque on the Pioneer 10 and 11 spacecraft, with an engraving featuring a friendly couple in nature’s garb and a map of our location in the Galaxy. The Pioneers’ interplanetary successors, the Voyagers, carried a crude videodisk, with music, voices, and a small selection of inoffensive photos that could be played with a 16-2/3 rpm turntable and a mechanical needle. And like I said, thirty years ago, a radio message was broadcast by the Arecibo radio telescope to a star cluster in the constellation of Hercules. It was a spartan graphic, amounting to a mere 210 bytes of data.

Keep that in mind when you think of contacting other societies with something akin to the Pioneer plaque. Sure, that gold-plated greeting card was a great start, but if we’re really thinking about interstellar messages, we should think big.Any suggestions?They might not be hostile after all.Im thinking Vulcans.

[Lilly]

Keep that in mind when you think of contacting other societies with something akin to the Pioneer plaque. Sure, that gold-plated greeting card was a great start, but if we’re really thinking about interstellar messages, we should think big.Any suggestions?They might not be hostile after all.Im thinking Vulcans.

Well, if they are nasty sorts, looking for some type of conquest, we're likely 'toast' already! So, I say, put on a pleasant demeanor and try and seem friendly. Hmmm...how to achieve this? Interesting notion, but Im not sure we have the ability to do much quite yet. Personally, I favor interstellar probes that are programmed to seek out life and then be very, very pleasant in reacting to any life. Did you ever see the Discovery Channel's Alien Planet program? Something like this would be nifty!

[Hazzard]

Did you ever see the Discovery Channel's Alien Planet program? Something like this would be nifty!

I loved it,and there is quite a few of our brightest involved,its not just the

usual Hollywood scifi slush. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0453446/

An intriguing and engaging exploration of an alien world. The CGI was excellent all around with some breathtaking views of the flora and fauna of Darwin IV, a world about 6 light years from earth. It really was fun to watch.

Edited January 21, 2006 by hazzard

[BigDaddy_GFS]

Alien Planet was awesome!!!!!!

A geat show, well thought out. The CGI was stunning, and the flora and fauna were fascinating.

[Hazzard]

About this whole "is this a good idea" flaging our presens in the galaxy question.In the movies there are some badass aliens.Take the Aliens and Predator movies as an example. As unlikely as the Predator may be, even aside from its oddball, anthropomorphic appearance -- a brushed steel Samurai with dreadlocks -- its still more believable than Alien. This toothy terror, with its nitric acid blood (pray that it doesnt get a nosebleed in the car), depends on humans for breeding. Now sure, there are some terrestrial species, such as the ichneumon fly that use other creatures as part of their reproductive cycle. But those other creatures are at least hanging around on the same planet! Imagine the evolutionary difficulties for some species that requires a chance encounter with beings from another world just to have kids!

Edited January 21, 2006 by hazzard

[mr. E]

What if every other civilization on every other planet out there is about as advanced as us? wouldn't that be odd? i mean, i guess there's really no telling that other civilizations will definitely be more advanced than us, you know? while i'm sure there are millions of other planets that are far older than ours, they could have gone through longer periods in which the only fauna present were kinds which hadn't yet utilized tools and technology.

That said, there's just as much chance that there are many, many civilizations out there that ARE far more advanced than ours. there's really no way of knowing until we actually come in contact with another civilization or find evidence of another civilization.

As we are now, nobody really knows how the universe works or what else is out there. nobody knows the true nature of the universe. sure there are plenty of theories and whatnot, but nobody knows for sure. so, i guess all that we can do is see what happens.

[Lilly]

What if every other civilization on every other planet out there is about as advanced as us? wouldn't that be odd? ...

How about if we're the pinnacle of advancement for our galaxy? Maybe any society that surpassed us in the past is now dead and gone? There are any number of possible scenarios for this one, fascinating for speculation!

Let's just hope that the aggressive, 'kill mad' aliens of Hollywood design really are only a product of our imagination!

[mr. E]

What if every other civilization that progressed past us developed something like the atom bomb and ultimately destroyed each other, like people are all the time saying we're going to end up doing?

[Hazzard]

What if every other civilization that progressed past us developed something like the atom bomb and ultimately destroyed each other, like people are all the time saying we're going to end up doing?

I agree,we dont know much about the average lifetime of technological societies, other than the fact that ours has, so far, managed to survive for a century. We also dont know at what rate sentient societies spring up in the Galaxy. But we do know that this rate is surely tied to the frequency with which stars are born. Clearly, a greater flux of new stars will ultimately produce a larger number of planets with thinking beings.

What is the star formation rate? Well, there are roughly 200 billion stars in the Milky Way, and that means that the average rate over the last 13 billion years has been about 15 new stars per year. In fact, however, this average rate is two tads misleading. Anyone whos used a radio telescope to study galaxies knows that when you examine a big spiral like the Milky Way, you find that the total amount of interstellar gas is typically a few percent of the mass of all the stars. Since interstellar gas is the stuff from which stars are built, its obvious that theres little material around today for constructing new ones.

In other words, our Sol is a real sunny-come-lately.

Clearly, this must affect the roster for our club of intelligent beings. But how? There are two obvious possibilities. One is that intelligence is such a useful attribute that technological societies last a really long time billions of years. Heck, trilobites lasted a half-billion years, and they werent even smart (by any reasonable standard). So maybe the thinking-beings club is home to really, really old societies, and were like preschoolers surrounded by grad students.

The other possibility,like mr.E said, is that technology doesnt survive for such long time spans. And while the Galaxy may have spawned great civilizations in the deep and distant past, they are mostly gone now. In this scenario, other club members are not quite so ancient, but they are in short supply.

Which, if either, of these possibilities is true will only become clear when weve decoded a signal from elsewhere. But the fact with which we began our discussion remains just that: an indisputable fact. -We are the new arrivals on the technological scene. Our strut and fret on the galactic stage has just begun.

Edited January 21, 2006 by hazzard

[rapid7]

So hazzard, you've read the Drake equation concerning civilizations and decided to palm it off as your own original thoughts.

[magnetar]

One way to look at things is the history of carbon stars. I suppose if you consider that quintessential, then every civilization might be contemporary to our own.

But, evolution and panspermia might have given a slightly earlier start. And, who is to say what kind of intelligent societies might arise, at what level. I give carbon based life a big thumbs up; silicon, a thumbs down. Carbon is good for waste exchange, silicon would seem problematic, to me.

To those who are "from Missouri", they have their points. All the fine numbers look too much like chance. However, where the universe is concerned, I take a hopeful attitude.

Eta Cassiopeiae

Hip 43587 (55Cnc) has 3 planets or sub-stellar objects

Hip 26335

47 Ursae Majoris has two planets or sub-stellar objects

HD10307

all had messeages sent to them, directly by radio telescope.

On average, they are 40 lys away. The data sent was similar to Drake's effort, but without all the codons.

Images-

Hip 43587 (55Cnc) is seen as the central star in the two star image. You can see several companions are nearby.

47 Ursae Majoris is shown with its two companion or planets.

[magnetar]

If curious, here is some idea of the proximity of these signaled stars.

They were K7, G8, K5, G0, G2 class stars, respectively.