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Antoine

Tofi: The Theory of Inevitability

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Antoine

TOFI: THE THEORY OF INEVITABILITY

EVERYTHING IS INEVITABLE THEREFORE PREDICTABLE

EVERYTHING IS PREDICTABLE THEREFORE INEVITABLE

TOFI is described on Internet by its author Derek Brockis. It is simple but describes the

universe as it is, not as we would like it to be.

Criticise and please prove Tofi is wrong - unfortunately no one has done so yet.

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Universal Absurdity

In addition, Antoine accidently sent this via the report system

Where are the posts proving Tofi - The Theory of Inevitability - wrong? Criticism please.

Tofi states that everything proceeds in an absolutely inevitable way, down to the last detail of human behaviour. It contrasts with conventional morality. Even that is still part of an inevitable pattern as is criticism of Tofi.

This site is for unexplained mysteries. Creation, God and free will are all unexplained. Tofi offers a description, if not an explantion of them.

Is Tofi right or not? What greater unexplained mystery could there be?

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Scorpius

That theory is flawed and opens up loopholes.

We can make predictions, but will each prediction be inevitable? No. I can predict that someone will come in my house in 2 minutes and steal my wallet right in front of me. Will it happen? Possibly. Is it inevitable? No. After that 5 minutes is up, the prediction is incorrect. And my wallet won't be stolen in front of me within 2 minutes.

I'd rewrite that theory into:

Everything is probable therefore predictable.

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Antoine

That theory is flawed and opens up loopholes.

We can make predictions, but will each prediction be inevitable? No. I can predict that someone will come in my house in 2 minutes and steal my wallet right in front of me. Will it happen? Possibly. Is it inevitable? No. After that 5 minutes is up, the prediction is incorrect. And my wallet won't be stolen in front of me within 2 minutes.

I'd rewrite that theory into:

Everything is probable therefore predictable.

Scorpius. Thanks for questioning Tofi's validity.

Tofi does not say that humans can predict everything. Firstly, we are not clever enough. Secondly, we never know all the facts. If we did, everything would be predictable because it moves in an inevitable way, downto the last molecule.

Referring to your burglar, if 50 hardened crimminals were held separatly outside your house, each with a steel passageway into it, given a million pouds each and promised another million and that they would die horribly if they did not take your wallet, you could reasonably predict you would be burgled

you might say there could be an earthquake. however, you have built an earthquake detector.

THink again - everything moves to an inevitable pattern, even your questioning it Derek Brockis.

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Scorpius

Referring to your burglar, if 50 hardened crimminals were held separatly outside your house, each with a steel passageway into it, given a million pouds each and promised another million and that they would die horribly if they did not take your wallet, you could reasonably predict you would be burgled

Following your premises yes. Following my premises, no.

Semantics...

I still have a problem with the word -- inevitable. From my understanding, the word inevitable describes an event that is impossible to avoid.

In order to assume everything is inevitable, you would have to be omniscient and have god-like powers, to control the universe at your will allowing every event to unfold in what would appear to be a multi-universe.

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Antoine

Following your premises yes. Following my premises, no.

Semantics...

I still have a problem with the word -- inevitable. From my understanding, the word inevitable describes an event that is impossible to avoid.

In order to assume everything is inevitable, you would have to be omniscient and have god-like powers, to control the universe at your will allowing every event to unfold in what would appear to be a multi-universe.

Sorry, can't see your nome. Thanks for criticism of Tofi. I always inevitably hope that someone will prove it convincimgly wrong. There may be a powerful He, She or It who or which controls our affairs but, according to Tofi, their actions proceed in just as inevitable way as ours do. Even your questioning of Tofi is part of the inevitably proceeding pattern.

I have put 'The Theory of Inevitability' on Internet - you can perhaps find it. I hope it does not apper presumptious. I am genuinely interested in seeing somebody put something more convincing in its place. There is plenty of evidence for Tofi. none for vague religious and ethical arguments against it Regards Derek Brockis

[edit - fixed quote]

Edited by Tommy

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Shivel

After thinking it over, I believe it is indeed true.

If you thought someone was going to steal your wallet, but it is very improbable that it will happen, then it is inevitable that it will not happen.

If you want to go to the park, it is inevitable that you may or may not go.

If your sink is dirty, it is inevitable that it will either remain so or be cleaned.

I hope this is what the theory is meant to say.

If it is, then there is no way to avoid inevitability.

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Scorpius

I still believe that the Theory of Inevitability needs to be rewritten. My proposal was and still stands as:

The Theory of Predictability [Probability]:

Everything is predictable therefore probable. ie. Everything is probable therefore predictable.

If you thought someone was going to steal your wallet, but it is very improbable that it will happen, then it is inevitable that it will not happen.

Seeing as Tifo is saying everything is inevitable. Then both the improbable and the probable should be inevitable. So eventually your wallet will be stolen and won't. But that is not always the case. A man could live the rest of his life without having his wallet stolen and only the prediction that his wallet won't be stolen will only hold true.

Therefore all predictions whether incorrect [improbable] or correct [probable] ("everything") should be inevitable. Semantics as I said - wrong choice of words.

---

I also like to point out that the theory in itself is true ("Everything proceeds to an unchangeable inevitable pattern. When you know enough about any situation its future is entirely predictable". It's just that when you put the word "Everything" and "Inevitable" together then it becomes misleading.

Edited by Scorpius

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Antoine

Jay Man 895

Scorpius

Antoine

As good criticism of Tofi as I have yet seen. Thanks. Tofi is such a deep subject that i have never been able to think it through clearly myself - only enough to accept it. Concepts of what we mean by 'correct and incorrect' and what 'time' is escape me.

Believers in Thermodynamic theories say minute particles move so chaotically they are impossible to predict and that even observing them changes their future. I say that however chaotic they are, they are moving in an inevitable pattern and of course observing them changes their future but it was inevitable you would have been observing them in that way at that time.

Regarding predictability and probability, two points. Firstly our assessment of the situation is basically only the movement of particles/waves in our brains and these are moving in an inevitable and predictable way. Secondly, nature is not untidy and probability is only a statement the making of which was inevitable, just as is the outcome of the event about which probability was being assessed.

Will come back on the other points later. Derek Brockis.

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Antoine

[Hello Scorpius. Interesting quote from de Chardin, which in no way contradicts Tofi. However spirtual the experience of the subject might be, it can be proceding to an inevitable pattern.

Inevitability has already been implied by Darwinism and by Determinism. what Tofi in its modest way adds, is the linking of inevitability to predicability.

Your mention of probability, implying it can only be said that something is inevitabiy probable or improbable is interesting. tofi would imply that the statement of improbability is a fact and its exact form resulted from an inevitably proceeding pattern. What is going to happen to the event you are describing as probable or improbable is already part of the inevitably proceding pattern, therefore prob or improb. does not exist other than that it is the movement of the molecules in your brain making the statement. I don't mean to be glib. Just looking - inevitably for the inevitable truth, but my truth does not exist any more than your improbability does. Derek Brockis

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Antoine

After thinking it over, I believe it is indeed true.

If you thought someone was going to steal your wallet, but it is very improbable that it will happen, then it is inevitable that it will not happen.

If you want to go to the park, it is inevitable that you may or may not go.

If your sink is dirty, it is inevitable that it will either remain so or be cleaned.

I hope this is what the theory is meant to say.

If it is, then there is no way to avoid inevitability.

Hello JayMan895

It is just as inevitable you were going to say Tofi is true as it would have been if you had said the opposite. You are right, you cannot cheat Inevitability, whether in the positive or negative sense.

Suppose a billlion ton meteor is one billionth of an inch above your head moving towards you at one billion m.p.h. You could say it was inevitable it was going to hit you.

All that Tofi does is to extend that thinking to all events, recognising that the farther away in time and the more complex the event is, the harder it is to predict by human intellligence, which is itself part of the inevitably proceding pattern. Still Listening with interest.. Derek Brockis

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zukie&jim

maybe the theory works but a bit backwards. like predictions have the opposite effect ie-predcting something make it go away sort of speak ?

and there was the theory about the infinate numbers of monkeys on a infinete number of typewriters typing away eventually produceing shakesphere--LOl

i suppose anything can happen given enough time .

Edited by jsf35rino

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Antoine

To all the valued commentators on Tofi.

Please ponder 2 points:

!. The woolly thinking of most media experts communicating to us on subjects like genes, evolution and atheism. They tell you the world is entirely materalistic, then go on to use words like 'ought, should and It is important that.'

Just listen to their confusion..

2. Think of the effect it will have on the world - morality, conscience, the concept of free will etc., if Tofi becomes widely accepted. Then think quietly about the fact that whatever is going to happen is inevitable.

Not preaching. Just interested.

Derek Brockis

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Antoine

maybe the theory works but a bit backwards. like predictions have the opposite effect ie-predcting something make it go away sort of speak ?

and there was the theory about the infinate numbers of monkeys on a infinete number of typewriters typing away eventually produceing shakesphere--LOl

i suppose anything can happen given enough time .

Hello Rino

The prediction is just another inevitable event in apattern of other inevitable events. It is movement ofmolecules/electrons in a brain, then of typewriter keys. What was going to happen happens wit or without te prdiction event hough, superficially,the prediction can appear to make an event happen or not happen.

re. your team of monkeys, just think how one monkey who noticed that a few letters could be arranged to describe things. he, or she, could speed things up a hell ofa lot. even moreso with music. If one monkey decided it didn't like the racket, you would soon have Mozart. Derek Brockis.

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zukie&jim

what if a few monkeys are blindfolded and have on hearing protection ?--there is allot of loose numbers in this equation -- yea given enough time and the infinity of the universe

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PadawanOsswe

Following your premises yes. Following my premises, no.

Semantics...

I still have a problem with the word -- inevitable. From my understanding, the word inevitable describes an event that is impossible to avoid.

In order to assume everything is inevitable, you would have to be omniscient and have god-like powers, to control the universe at your will allowing every event to unfold in what would appear to be a multi-universe.

well one thing that I do agree is inevitable is death.

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Tommy

I’ll have a stab at this:

Here’s a question: Are you Antione? Derek Brockis? both or neither? It is inevitable that you are one of these predictions, as there is nothing left to chance and it encompasses all possibilities.

Does this example explain the basis of your theory?

If you thought someone was going to steal your wallet, but it is very improbable that it will happen, then it is inevitable that it will not happen.

JayMan, to reiterate what Scorpius said; if there is the slightest degree of ‘probability’ involved, then the event by definition is not ‘inevitable’.

It is simple but describes the universe as it is, not as we would like it to be.

In your opinion, how do you believe ‘we would like’ the universe to be?

Given the assumption that we have perfect information about a situation, and all possible variables that could influence that situation, you are creating a closed system that is therefore both predictable and inevitable - provided these conditions are not subject to change. But is the universe a closed system? Can there ever be perfect information about such an open dynamic system that is constantly in flux?

What if an unknown factor appears into this closed system equation? Surely that would then change the initial ‘inevitability’ of it? Predictability uses information from a certain period in time. What if that information was to significantly change enough to affect the initial outcome, or ‘inevitability’ of the event?

For example, if someone said ‘we would have definitely won the game ‘if’ Pete hadn’t broken his leg…’

The prediction at the start, taking account of all information would have been ‘we will win the game’. The outcome is that they lost due to what you could call ‘unforeseen circumstances’ that were not present at the time of the prediction.

Therefore, to fully accurately predict or foretell an event, at the time of the prediction you would need perfect information on what happens from the moment of the prediction right up to the happening of the event. Since we cannot know with absolute certainty what will happen until it does happen, predictability cannot equal inevitability.

Believers in Thermodynamic theories say minute particles move so chaotically they are impossible to predict and that even observing them changes their future.

If you are to take chaos in a metaphysical context, (which I think we are) is it not the antithesis of law and order, pattern and predictability?

I say that however chaotic they are, they are moving in an inevitable pattern and of course observing them changes their future but it was inevitable you would have been observing them in that way at that time.

Why would observing them change their future? Why should it be assumed that the ‘observer’ can somehow influence what he is observing, by observing?

I would not say the path in which they move is predictable. If it was, then to classify them as chaotic/random would be untrue. Your theory assumes there must be an observable predictable pattern to everything that happens, even if we can’t see it. That is to say even events that we perceive as random aren’t actually random, but must have a pattern to them. By definition however, ‘chaotic’ movements have no pattern of prediction, and therefore cannot hold true in your theory.

Speaking subjectively, if we can observe no pattern or structure, then by our definitions it is indeed a ‘random’ event, until some time where we can observe a pattern to it. How can you assume there is order to everything when we have no evidence to suggest this? Perhaps random movements are just that; random.

I have more points I could throw in, but let’s deal with these ones for now.

So in conclusion, I would change your theory to this:

‘Everything is predictable, nothing is inevitable – c’est la vie.’ :P

One more question; how is Tofi different to fate?

Tommy – *now with a headache* :sm:sk

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Antoine

Hello Tommy, Padawan,Scorpius, JayMan and others

I am amazed at the attention Tofi is getting. I do feel, however, that as what I honestly think is a fundamental truth spreads it could change the world, even though any changes, or absence of changes, will be part of the inevitable pattern.

There are so many questions to answer! I have noticed a tendency to interpret Tofi as saying that humans can predict the inevitable pattern of events. and rejecting Tofi because we cannot. It does not claim this. It says that in an adequate system where sufficient information was available all events, being inevitable, are in principle predictable. In addition it says that because all evidence is that all events are predictable they must be inevitable.

Remember also that we are only molecules etc. moving in a complicated system and our observations do not necessarily represent reality.

Just to answer one question. What is the difference between Tofi and Fate. A person will accept that Fate is influencing his/her life but retain the concept of free-will, conscience and religious responsibility. Tofi says that whatever he/she does is inevitable, down to the last detail as does their will and that conscience etc. is proceding to an inevitable pattern. The person was going to do what they do do a billion tears ago.

I have studied all the comments, hope to reply, but unfortunately cannot see proof tofi is wrong, given sufficient thought. Derek Brockis.

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Antoine

well one thing that I do agree is inevitable is death.

Hello Padawan

Thanks for quote

Tofi states everything that happens, down to the smallest detail, is proceding to an inevitable pattern. THe omniscience of people has nothing to do with it. they are part of the pattern, however omniscient.

There is a theory we are all a virtual reality in computers of a master race from our own time that discovered time travel and went to the future and became unbelievably advanced.

Tofi does not rule this out. It simply states that whatever the master race does proceeds to an inevitable pattern like everything else.

Death appears inevitable in a superficial concept. It is inevitable, as is everything else. However, if a new drug stops us ever dying, that would be an equally inevitable event.Whether we all die or enjoy perpetual life is already decided as part of the inevitably proceding pattern.

So in one sense death is inevitable and in another sense it is also inevitable but they are different senses.

Derek Brockis

[edit - fixed quote]

Edited by Tommy

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Antoine

I’ll have a stab at this:

Hello Tommy

Agreed that your identity question demonstrates an inevitability. so does everything else

.There can never be probability. The expression of probability is part of the inevitability.

We would like the universe to be one where free-will exists.

Closed or not, whatever comes into the system comes as part of the inevitable pattern. Tofi does not rule out the existence of an infinite number of universes. It says only that tey are all moving in an inevitable pattern.

I do not understand time nor does anyone else yet. There is no reason to think it disturbs inevitability

The arrival of the unknown factor was part of the inevitable pattern

Any thought about the broken leg or expresssion of probability was part of the pattern.

A system having all information down to the movement of every particle in every brain in the universe could have predicted the result and the prediction itself would be and our comments here are part of the inevitable pattern

You are confusing human capability and concepts of time with a matter of, for want of a better word, atomic physics. The important part of Tofi (spot the deliberate mistake) is inevitability. Predictability is only a concept reinforcing Inevitability and I don't know what it means.

Advocates of thermodynamics claim that observation alters the future of very small particles and use this as evidence against tofi.

I contend that what are described as chaotic particles are in fact moving in an inevitable pattern that is too complicated for us yet to understand. Try giving a stone-age man a computer.

When you study any system, large or small, you find much evidence for Inevitability. Try dropping a stone on a table. Look at various ways through a maze. Look at planetary motion. Look at 1,000 others. Where is specific simple evidence that any system is not moving inevitably?

THanks for your criticism, believe it or not, I am trying to disprove Tofi myself!

derek Brockis.

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Tommy

Derek,

Thanks for your answers. There are several issues I still have problems with, I hope you can address them:

- The relationship between predictability and inevitability

- The concept of inevitability

- Choice & Randomness

To start with, I believe that you can break your theory down even further, to the simple relationship between cause and effect. Is what you are saying any different to saying every action has a reaction? Or that every choice has a consequence? Is your tofi any different to the concept of causality?

The concept of inevitability: I interpreted your definition of inevitability as a path of pre-ordained events that we are destined to walk down, that we could do nothing about. However instead of questioning the concept of choice and free will as you claimed it might, all tofi seems to say is that an action will cause an ‘inevitable’ reaction.

The relationship between predictability and inevitability:

The important part of Tofi (spot the deliberate mistake) is inevitability. Predictability is only a concept reinforcing Inevitability and I don't know what it means.

This again is another area I am a bit unsure on. At the start, you claimed -

EVERYTHING IS INEVITABLE THEREFORE PREDICTABLE

EVERYTHING IS PREDICTABLE THEREFORE INEVITABLE

You give equal importance to both inevitability and predictability, implying they exist on a level of interdependence. Now you are saying that predictability is only reinforcing the more important aspect of inevitability. (or was that the deliberate mistake) :unsure:

All it seems you are really saying is that ‘things happen’. Everything is predictable because it doesn’t have to come true. Everything is inevitable, because it will come true. Maybe it would just be easier to say, ‘everything ‘is’.

:sm

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Antoine

Derek,

Thanks for your answers. There are several issues I still have problems with, I hope you can address them:

- The relationship between predictability and inevitability

- The concept of inevitability

- Choice & Randomness

To start with, I believe that you can break your theory down even further, to the simple relationship between cause and effect. Is what you are saying any different to saying every action has a reaction? Or that every choice has a consequence? Is your tofi any different to the concept of causality?

The concept of inevitability: I interpreted your definition of inevitability as a path of pre-ordained events that we are destined to walk down, that we could do nothing about. However instead of questioning the concept of choice and free will as you claimed it might, all tofi seems to say is that an action will cause an ‘inevitable’ reaction.

The relationship between predictability and inevitability:

This again is another area I am a bit unsure on. At the start, you claimed -

EVERYTHING IS INEVITABLE THEREFORE PREDICTABLE

EVERYTHING IS PREDICTABLE THEREFORE INEVITABLE

You give equal importance to both inevitability and predictability, implying they exist on a level of interdependence. Now you are saying that predictability is only reinforcing the more important aspect of inevitability. (or was that the deliberate mistake) :unsure:

All it seems you are really saying is that ‘things happen’. Everything is predictable because it doesn’t have to come true. Everything is inevitable, because it will come true. Maybe it would just be easier to say, ‘everything ‘is’.

:sm

hello Tommy.

Firstly may I say Ido not set myself up as a pompous guru on Tofi. I am groping to comprehend its implictions like you are and feel I soon run out of intelligence to think things through.

Nevertheless, I have yet to see arguments that demolish Tofi.

In analysing Tofi it is easy to come up with glib answers

Re. your action and reaction point Tofi allows this, of course. The only thing Tofi adds is that all actions and reactions are inevitable and that there is not an input by a supernatural free will

yes, an action will cause an inevitable reaction and the action itself was inevitable, as was what happened before the action.

The concept of importance does not appear in Tofi. You can define fctors influencing and being influenced to different degrees.

Of course everything is. It may exist in more wonderful forms than we imagine but Tofi simply says all the forms move in an inevitable pattern.

No, that was not the deliberate mistake.

no problem in saying anything. A few elektrons moving in the brain and the speech muscles are following the inevitable pattern.

The idea of inevitability is not new. See implications of Darwin and Determinism.

The observation that the nearer the event is in time, that the biger it is and that the more you know about it te more you can predict its future is a simple truth. Carried further it implies 100% predictability can be arrived at.

The little bit of original thought I dare to think I might have created 30 years ago is that inevitability proves predictability that predictability proves inevitability and the link between the two. Regards Derek Brockis

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Antoine

[

Hello Padawan, 35rino,Scorpius, Tommy and others.

TOFI< TOFISM and TOFIST - a general answer to so many questions:

Beliefs can be categorised into 3.

1. The devout religious catholic, moslem etc. who believes in his God and obeys his church 100%.

2.The atheist or similar non-believer who neverthless claims a conscience, believes free-will exists outside a material world and in concepts such as right and wrong. Communists are the most confused. They deny God, suppress religion but demand obedience to a vague abstract doctrine.

3. Those who believe the universe is entirely materialistic.

For example, Tofi is the Theory. Tofism is the faith based on it and a Tofist is a person who practises that faith.

Arguers against Tofism often say 'If you accept Tofism nothing matters. You might as well get drunk and do nothing'.

It isn't like that. Whether you decide to be a drunk or a prime minister or both was decided a billion years ago. Your apparent decision was already part of the inevitably proceding pattern. Please prove the opposite, if you can!

Derek Brockis.

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circuit

this post was inevitable.

So is was/is the fact that you are reading it right now

it's a simple theory :)

Edited by circuit

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Antoine

this post was inevitable.

So is was/is the fact that you are reading it right now

it's a simple theory :)

Hello Circuit

Yes you are right it is a simple theory.

It is inevitable some people are reading Tofi and inevitable some are not. If you say you disagree with Tofi your statement is part of the inevitably proceding pattern as is any subsequent statement that you were right or wrong. We will have(have?) to change

our concept of correct and incorrect, when we can think it and 'time' concepts through, which is not yet.

You can extend your point to cover the apparent contradictions of Tofi by Heisenberg and quantum mechanics researchers. Their decisions to study were inevitable as were their methods and results. The apparent fact that observation alters the future of small particles apparently unpredictably does not necessarily disprove Tofi ie. that they are in fact moving to an inevitable but complicated pattern.Also, our concepts of 'correct and incorrect' and the limitations of our languages to express such concepts mean that we canot be sure we are defining the situation correctly, whatever 'correct' means.

I do not know the answers. Only that there is massive simple daily evidence of the validity of Tofi and no cohesive convincing evidence against it.

Derek Brockis

[edit - fixed quote]

Edited by Tommy

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