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Antoine

Tofi: The Theory of Inevitability

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Toronado

The only thing i can say about that is it's probably just a coincidence. Like, whatever you saw had to be pretty normal... not like pink elephants flying around or anything, so maybe your brain is just good at making up situations and showing them to you... and of course they really happen because it was something pretty normal... like watching a movie, or something normal. So it feels like it was supposed to happen, but it would be like me saying you are going to eat some kind of meat that is tan or brown and covered in something for dinner tonight. You probably are, and it will look like i'm a mind reader if i get it right... but it was just coincidence.

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Antoine

Just a thought.

There is a lot in the media these days about the quarrel between Creationists and Darwinists.

Tofists are ahead of both of them in clear thinking.

Creationists could be right. Tofi adds simply that if a God created us, he, she or it did it in accordance with an inevitably proceeding pattern.

Darwinists could be right. they say that humanity is shaped by evolution. Tofi agrees but adds that both evolution and everything else proceeds inevitably.

Creationists and Darwinists are not keeping up with modern thinking as illustrated by Tofi.

They might as wel quarrel about the whole - and correct - situation as only part of the picture..

Derek Brockis.

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Tiggs

Sorry. One of us is missing something. You say that the Main tenents of Tofi are:

EVERYTHING IS INEVITABLE THEREFORE PREDICTABLE

EVERYTHING IS PREDICTABLE THEREFORE INEVITABLE

I'm pretty sure my previous post illustrated how everything wasn't predictable.

So, if you turn those two tenents around:

EVERYTHING IS NOT PREDICTABLE THEREFORE NOT INEVITABLE

EVERYTHING IS NOT INEVITABLE THEREFORE NOT PREDICTABLE

QED?

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circuit

I'm pretty sure my previous post illustrated how everything wasn't predictable.

:blink:

Edited by circuit

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Antoine

[Hello Circuit. I think it was you who doubted the 'Predictable' content of Tofi

The Theory of Inevitability (Tofi) is simply that 'every event is inevitable'. This means that every event, however large or small, proceeds in an inevitable way. For example, when you take a decision, the events leading to that exact decision were taking place right from billions of years ago up to the second before you took the decision in accordance with the inevitable pattern of events. You could not have decided any differently than you did decide.

I introduced the 'predictable' element expanding Tofi because it makes the concept easier to understand, fuller and more interesting.(totally unscientific reasons).

Nevertheless, to my mind the idea that the series of events proceding to an inevitable pattern must in principle be predictable - whatever that means - is a valid one. Put a train on a well maintained track, eliminate terrorists and the more you know about the situation the more confidently you can predict where and when the train will arrive. Here lies both the argument and the trap.

There are two reasons why 'Predictable' is, in principle, better dropped form Tofi.

Firstly it is nearly always wrongly interpreted - like in 'train' above- as meaning that people can be expected to make perfect predictions of future events. Obviously wrong, so, it is argued ,so Tofi must be wrong.

Secondly, the concept of prediction cannot, as far as I can judge, be clearly stated within human limitations of language, thought and time. It is not as simple as being right or wrong when betting on a horse. Your decision to bet, choice of horse, the result were all part of the inevitable pattern moving to our concept of 'time' that must be wrong.

I admit to being confused on 'Predictability' but am still firm on 'Inevitability'

By the way, have you noticed the incomplete arguments of the 'Darwinists' and Creationists' ? They seem to be arguing about a half-way house to Tofi! Either could be right. The Darwinists need only to take their case to full 'Inevitability'. The Creationists can have their God but need to recognise that he, she or it is creating and behaving in accordance with 'Inevitability' to an inevitably proceding pattern. I wonder which of them will be brave enough first to give-up the concept of 'free-will'? They may not like it, but Tofi is the way it is.

Thanks for your eforts to clarify - all read with interest. in an honest attempt to understand better.

Derek Brockis

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circuit

[Hello Circuit. I think it was you who doubted the 'Predictable' content of Tofi

Nope.. .it wasn't me :)

completly agree with all that you said

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Tiggs

I admit to being confused on 'Predictability' but am still firm on 'Inevitability'

I'd agree with that - Everything is inevitable, just not predictable.

It might interest you to know that until quantum theory was unveiled, physicists thought exactly the same - that we lived in a clockwork universe.

Nowdays, they're slightly more confused. It's probably best summed up in the following exchange:

Einstein - "God doesn't play dice with the Universe"

Bohrs - "Einstein, stop telling God what to do"

I personally think Einstein was correct - that there is an order and a predestination to everything.

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MadMachine

Whether we have free will or are just going according to inevitable design, everything we do, we do. There's no difference really. "Tofi" as you call it may very well be reality, but that doesn't change anything. With or without "Tofi", everything that happens happens. There's no need to give it a fancy name or anything like that.

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Antoine

Hello Mad Machine.

You say there is no need to give the Theory of Inevitability a fancy name like Tofi. In fact there is no need for anything.

Don't forget that whether the theory is to be given a fancy name, or whether it is not to be given one, is already decided in accordance with the inevitably proceeding pattern. 'Need' like 'right,wrong and important' is a term hard to reconcile with Tofi. You might say, "my car needs new tyres", but "he needs a sense of morality", is more dubious.However, like everything else, the concepts are just the outcome of movement of particles, waves etc, in accordance with the inevitable pattern they were always going to take. Wish I was wrong (wishing or not wishing was also inevitable) Derek Brockis

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Antoine

Good evening Tiggs.

I regret that you too consider we live in a clockwork universe. That concept almost exactly sums up Tofi -the Theory of Inevitability. I think there might be room for a subtle differece between what results from the movement of a gigantic complex clock and a system resulting from random movements of waves, particles etc. but the two are very near.

My regret is that neither you nor i nor anybody else has been able to pour scorn on Tofi and conclusively disprove it. I long to meet the lad or lassie that will throw Tofi into the waste paper basket, pour tea dregs over it and put something more convincing in its place.

I have been seeking him or her, or even it, if its a god for 35 years so far without success.

consider any situation from the rising of the sun tomorrpw to the future of French goalkeepers and you will slowly and surprisingly see see the concept of inevitability creeping in.Derek Brockis

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MadMachine

Hello Mad Machine.

You say there is no need to give the Theory of Inevitability a fancy name like Tofi. In fact there is no need for anything.

Don't forget that whether the theory is to be given a fancy name, or whether it is not to be given one, is already decided in accordance with the inevitably proceeding pattern. 'Need' like 'right,wrong and important' is a term hard to reconcile with Tofi. You might say, "my car needs new tyres", but "he needs a sense of morality", is more dubious.However, like everything else, the concepts are just the outcome of movement of particles, waves etc, in accordance with the inevitable pattern they were always going to take. Wish I was wrong (wishing or not wishing was also inevitable) Derek Brockis

Well I never said it was wrong to give it a name. It was given that name, therefore it was inevitable that it would have that name. I was just pointing out that "tofi" happens whether or not it has a name. It's simply a universal fact that everything that happens, happens. :yes:

Edit: Universal as far as we can observe, at least.

Edited by MadMachine

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Antoine

Hello Rabid Cat

Tofi - theTheory of Inevitability

I just caught up with your posting of 25 April 2006 analysing and criticising the Tofi concept.

I am sure you are wrong. Just as sure as i am sure you are sure you are wrong.

Nevertheless, in my honestly modest opinon you are on the right track and might one day grope your way to being dead right.Since I thought of Tofi 35/40 years ago I have been convinced that our limited human concepts of time, mass and other factors are hiding the truth from us.Nothing we say ever says what we mean or means what we say. Please do Keep up your penetrating totally wrong criticism of Tofi. It gives the right perspective to get to the truth one day. Derek Brockis.

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Antoine

Hello Tommy

Re. your posting of March 27th, you make 3 points.

I am going back to this posting because I find myself unable always to think through the implications of Tofi until something strikes me later.

Firstly you refer to how our education and parents education shapes our futures. Surely this is evidence for Tofi. Somebody who has been educated strongly in a particular direction is influenced strongly towards a predictable and inevitable future. Not clear cut I admit but a bit more evidence for Tofi. not against

Secondly you imply, as do many people, that a random future cannot be an inevitable one. Nevertheless, a complicated random system affected by thousands of random factors can still be proceding in an inevitable direction. Hard to comprehend, I admit, but randomness and complexity do not rule out inevitability. A flock of birds in a gale is an immensely complicated system but Tofi says is still proceding to an inevitable pattern, lke everything else.

Thirdly you say you do not want to believe in Tofi. It is inevitable which you will choose between belief or disbelief. I remember having an old, clever friend stay for a week end when we discussed Tofi exhaustively.On leaving his final words were that he simply could not believe things were like Tofi says.

I remember thinking that if that was the best argument my respected and clever old friend could raise against Tofi then it must be true. Derek Brockis

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MadMachine

I understand "Theory of Inevitability" seems impossible to prove wrong so far. However, I'd really like to know how this changes anything... Whether everything's going according to a pattern or not, it doesn't change the way I view the world. Should it? If so, why?

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Antoine

I understand "Theory of Inevitability" seems impossible to prove wrong so far. However, I'd really like to know how this changes anything... Whether everything's going according to a pattern or not, it doesn't change the way I view the world. Should it? If so, why?

Good Morning Mad Machine

You are right on saying it seems impossible to prove Tofi wrong. I have tried hard to do so.

This doesn't change anything. Just the opposite. It tends to prove an unchanging pattern will inevitably proceed.

Tofi doesn't change the way in which you were inevitably going to view the world anyway. Tofi does not have a moral dimension. Whether or not you were going to view it with, or without, being aware of Tofi was and is inevitable. 'Should and why' are answerable in only a mechanical sense. You can say 'why has my tyre a puncture?'. Answer, 'because of a nail'. To contemplate answering ethical and moral 'should,why' questions you need (mechanically) to realise the questions and answers are only the movements of particles and waves in a random manner proceeding to an inevitable pattern.

hope I don't appear to be a know-all. I am just honestly groping to understand and if possible disprove Tofi. Derek Brockis

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MadMachine

Hope you don't mind my asking, but why do you wish to disprove it? Theory of Inevitability, if it is true, changes nothing. We're as free with it as we are without it in my opinion...

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Antoine

Hope you don't mind my asking, but why do you wish to disprove it? Theory of Inevitability, if it is true, changes nothing. We're as free with it as we are without it in my opinion...

MadMachine

Two reasons to disprove it.

1. If Tofi is true (and it appears to be) it means that free will, morality, identity as a person do not exist. We are just puppets or parts of a big complicated clock. We are not free, as you say we are, because our decisions are always inevitable. Tofi limits the universe and diminishes the human spirit to nothing. Sad but apparently true.

2. It is an intellectual challenge to disprove Tofi. I admit there are many things you can't disprove easily. There is a disco on Jupiter. Nelson had 2 brown and one white eggs for breakfast 17 days before Trafalgar.

Admittedly inability to disprove is not proof but whwn you examine 1,000 situations and find none of them contradicts Tofi that is a degree of superficial proof. Where is one situation disproving Tofi?

It is natural curiosity to look for a valid disproof of Tofi.. The thermodynamics people, Heisenberg disciples and students of chaos theory claim disproof of Tofi but their arguments are inconclusive. Some of them do not seem to be willing to stand back and recognise that their decision to investigate and the investigation itself were all ruled by Tofi.

Similarly people on television etc. put forward Darwinism, gene theories and determinism but in the next breath use moral and ethical concepts - we should, they ought and 'it isimportant that' thus contradicting their their own theories. All very confused - not Tofi - the opposition. Derek Brockis

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MadMachine
1. If Tofi is true (and it appears to be) it means that free will, morality, identity as a person do not exist. We are just puppets or parts of a big complicated clock. We are not free, as you say we are, because our decisions are always inevitable. Tofi limits the universe and diminishes the human spirit to nothing. Sad but apparently true.

I did read all of your post, but I'm only going to address this particular part at the moment...

Who is to say free will, morality, identity as a person, or our illusions of those things, are not a part of Tofi? It would seem fair enough. One can enjoy their life, or if you prefer, "their place in this giant clock," while being ignorant of Tofi (if it exists, which it seems to.) Assuming that Tofi is true, I am unaffected by the revelation. I can still enjoy my conscious experience as a small part of this giant clock, and so can everyone else. Just because something's "Inevitable" doesn't make it meaningless. ^_^

Now forgive me, but I must be off for now. G'day to you.

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Toronado

Actually, i'm inclined to agree there with MadMachine a little. It might be inevitable, but it doesn't get rid of the experience. Every action happens because of another action in the past. Why? Why do actions work from other actions? There is a reason that actions work from each other. Form follows function, and especially in Nature.

I suppose it makes the time all the more better because things are inevitable, if you want to believe in God's Plan... then this would be the most true argument, he set the world into motion.

Also, comparing TOFI to a clock makes it seem more depressing, because with a clock we know what time it WILL be in the future. We can see it all before it happens. TOFI, as i gather you were trying to put in with that "Everything is Predictable" part, we cannot see ahead to.

It's kind of funny that we don't have the technology to go back in time, but we don't have the technology to go forward in time either.

So I guess there is a reason to keep interest in the whole thing.

Edited by Toronado

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Antoine

No, I cannot... but it hinges on the idea that "EVERYTHING" is inevitable... which relys on the assumptions that the universe we exist within will hold every single possibility in some point of time and that it is infinite, am I right?

What if the universe we exist within is finite? surely then "everything" could not exist within it because the nature of everything is infinite.

Idealy we would find a new name to term this "universe" as there could be (and most likely are) other "universes" out there.

Randomness mostly existing on the quantum level... some would say there are resonant fields controlling the randomness... but I am skeptical.

Also, what of free will? Can our actions be completley random?

Ablsahs

controviening?

like pulp on a cheese wheel?

Obviously my thoughts are limited to my knowledge and my words are limited to my language... But then again, particles don't think or talk, do they?

I like the idea that there is an Omega point to this universe... that it was created to satisfy some type of inequality... or, even more profound, maybe it is a system created to satisfy itself... then even though events can be random, they become limited to themselves as the universe expands - ultimatley leading to this satisfaction.

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Antoine

Good Morning STIX

In your March 28 posting you state that particles do not talk. The point is, as far as tofi is concerned, particles do talk. We are all a complicated mixture of waves, particles, energy etc.in patterns we do not yet understand and perhaps never will.

However, the particles singly or in talking assembly of particles are all moving and talking in an inevitable pattern. Derek Brockis

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Antoine

Hello Rabid Cat

While, as always, trying to understand Tofi I again came across your posting of 25 April 2006.

In it you question whether the univese, time etc exist. You rightly draw attention to the point that if things are not as we see them, then all theories are open to question as to their correctness. I agree and think that it is only via this sort of thinking that we might ever understand Tofi etc.I am not saying Tofi is unquestionable, only that massive evidence id in its favour.

Three small, vague, circumstantial points still supporti Tofi:

1. So far we have no evidence that reality is not something like what we experience. You fire a well aimed rocket to Mars and it gets theree. Radio waves travel the universe unchanged.

2. However complex and different the real universe is, that does not necessarily prevent it from behaving/proceding in an inevitable manner.

3. There is no evidence in your statement clarlyand specifically disproving Tofi. THere is overwhelming evidence supporting it within our concepts.

However, I agree with you that it will not be until our understanding of time, reality etc is way beyond what we have now that we shall know for certain whether Tofi is correct or not (no, this does not contradict Tofi, if you think about it).

Derek Brockis

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ShaunZero

Untill the consciousness is proven to be a biproduct of the brain, there's no way to know if this theory also works with humans. In my opinion, even if you know all the facts and data you can about a person's brain, you still can't predict what they'll do with 100% accuracy.

Besides, it hasn't been proven either way. It may seem logical to assume this theory is true, but that doesn't make it so untill we have a way to verify it. Which is why it's not fact yet.

We don't have enough information to make any accurate conclusion in my opinion. Our understanding of reality is way too limited.

Edited by Zero of Deism

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Antoine

Untill the consciousness is proven to be a biproduct of the brain, there's no way to know if this theory also works with humans. In my opinion, even if you know all the facts and data you can about a person's brain, you still can't predict what they'll do with 100% accuracy.

Besides, it hasn't been proven either way. It may seem logical to assume this theory is true, but that doesn't make it so untill we have a way to verify it. Which is why it's not fact yet.

We don't have enough information to make any accurate conclusion in my opinion. Our understanding of reality is way too limited.

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ShaunZero

Ummn.... ok? Didn't you mean to say something about what I said instead of just quoting it, lol?

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