Ancient Aircrafts of India & Egypt

[Notitha]

About the forum link... Normally, if people are in a debate, they will present material directly so it can be addressed directly.

Also, other pages online say that the "Vaimanika Shastra, a collection of sketches the core of which is attributed to Bharatvaj the Wise around the 4th century B.C. The writings in the Vaimanika Shastra were rediscovered in 1875." http://www.hinduwisdom.info/Vimanas.htm So, Wiki is not a very reliable source for information, I am sure you lot know that.

Also, why would you trust studies done by a national institute? People have mistranslated and misinterpretted things for a while now, how do you think they continue to hoodwink us on our real history?

[The_Spartan]

There is a Book/article/So called Sceintific paper titled

Vymanika Shastra Rediscovered - A project study conducted by wg. Cdr. M.P.Rao, etc. of Aeronautical Society of India on behalf of Aerospace Information Panel of Aeronautics Research and Development Board, B-Wing, Sena Bhavan, New Delhi –110011, India.

I don't at all believe that this "scientific" paper was authorised by the AR & DB. The chairman of the Aerospace Dept at IISc is on the board of the AR&DB. I have mailed him for confirmation whether the AR&DB had authorised such a project study.

The Scientists at IISc are combustion & Propulsion Scientists and are more qualified to look at the Book.

Moreover, what i have read from this "scientific" paper is that it is just a Re-hash of G.R Jostyr's Book.

No scientific reasoning at all.

I am an Electro-mechanical Engineer. as far as my understanding goes or my common sense goes the vimanas (shown in the pictures of the book) cant fly. there is no aerodynamics in them. Moreover, to lift such ugly, unshapely contraptions off the ground, the propulsion and other mechanics required would be of un-imaginable scale, which was clearly not available to the ancients.

Edited September 2, 2010 by The Spartan

[The_Spartan]

Also, why would you trust studies done by a national institute? People have mistranslated and misinterpretted things for a while now, how do you think they continue to hoodwink us on our real history?

Hope you have studied Physics in School. For any object to lift off the ground, the pressure on it above it should be lower than the pressure below it. Other than Helicopters, which provide the upward movement force via itsa rotor blades, all aero-crafts require a Aerofoil construction for its wings.

The Higher pressure under the aerofoil provides the upward thrust since the Lower pressure on top of the aerofoil does not act against the thrust.

Below is a Sculpture showing a Vimana.

Below is a picture from an edition of G.R Jostyr's Vymanika Shastra .Remember - The Vymanika Shastra was channeled after the wright brothers made their flight. G.R Jostyr's book was published in 1952 and later in 1959 ....very later after principles of Aerodynamics was perfected. The draughtsman T.K Ellapa who made the drawings for G.R Jostyr book was working at an engineering college and would have knowledge of Aerodynamics

The vimana of Vymanika Shashtra or the VImana of the sculpture would never take off..die to their Un-Aerodynamic properties.

[Notitha]

It is said some of the Vimanas ran off mantras (Do I need a source for that, or have you heard it before?). So, since we cannot run anything off the power of voice/thought, of course we would not be able to recreate that power source.

Also, they ran off anti-gravity. "Their method of propulsion, she said, was "anti-gravitational" and was based upon a system analogous to that of "laghima," the unknown power of the ego existing in man's physiological makeup, "a centrifugal force strong enough to counteract all gravitational pull." According to Hindu Yogis, it is this "laghima" which enables a person to levitate." http://www.crystalinks.com/ancientaircraft.html and I really think we would have a hard time of replicating that as well.

[Abramelin]

Now, Spartan, you spoil the fun of the believers.

You post facts. They won't like that at all.

Who wants to be awakened from a nice dream??

[The_Spartan]

It is said some of the Vimanas ran off mantras (Do I need a source for that, or have you heard it before?). So, since we cannot run anything off the power of voice/thought, of course we would not be able to recreate that power source.

Also, they ran off anti-gravity. "Their method of propulsion, she said, was "anti-gravitational" and was based upon a system analogous to that of "laghima," the unknown power of the ego existing in man's physiological makeup, "a centrifugal force strong enough to counteract all gravitational pull." According to Hindu Yogis, it is this "laghima" which enables a person to levitate." http://www.crystalinks.com/ancientaircraft.html and I really think we would have a hard time of replicating that as well.

Do you weigh Science or These laghima/thanima stuff from a fringe site? Instead of giving links to fringe sites, c=would you care to refer to any scientific paper or even the wikipedia?? crystal links is an uber fringe site.

Do you know why you fall down from a height? its because of gravity. what is gravity? science.

What is this laghima??? A force of the Ego of a person to levitate. When a normal indian yogi couldn't even lift his ass off the ground with this laghima thingy, (the videos you see on youtube are fake...no human can levitate just because of his mental powers), how can they levitate an entire aero-craft/vimana? Use your common sense!

[The_Spartan]

Now, Spartan, you spoil the fun of the believers.

You post facts. They won't like that at all.

Who wants to be awakened from a nice dream??

Exactly Abe!

Ok folks..believers....drop down the rabbit hole as long as you want to.

[Notitha]

Do you weigh Science or These laghima/thanima stuff from a fringe site? Instead of giving links to fringe sites, c=would you care to refer to any scientific paper or even the wikipedia?? crystal links is an uber fringe site.

Do you know why you fall down from a height? its because of gravity. what is gravity? science.

What is this laghima??? A force of the Ego of a person to levitate. When a normal indian yogi couldn't even lift his ass off the ground with this laghima thingy, (the videos you see on youtube are fake...no human can levitate just because of his mental powers), how can they levitate an entire aero-craft/vimana? Use your common sense!

Because that was a totally different age back then! Why do you think most people are not perceiving with their third eye? We are no longer born like that.

[The_Spartan]

what third eye, flix?

The third eye stuff though a esoteric concept in Indian yoga and what else, was popularized by fringe people like T.Lobasang rampa aka Cyril Henry Hoskins - a con man and theosophy crazies like Blavatsky and her Ass-ended Masters.

The third Eye is a concept. No one is born with a third Eye.

T. Lobasang rampa tried to fool the people saying as a lama he underwent an operation in a remote Buddhist monastery in tibet to open up his third eye. When he was identified as Hoskins, he then shifted gears and said that the spirit of a great Tibetan Lama is inhabiting his body.

I am from India and I study Indian History/mythology as a hobby. I have read a lot of things about the third Eye stuff. In Indian Mythology, Only Shiva is shown as having a Third Eye. When he opens his third Eye, destruction commences.

Else than in Hindu Mythology, in Buddhist mythology/religion, the third eye concept is related to enlightenment. The third Eye concept is never related to providing any force or laghima. whatever you have read on the fringe sites like crystallinks or bibliotecapleyades is pure fallacy.

Edited September 2, 2010 by The Spartan

[Notitha]

Third eye is controlled by the Pineal Gland, which Flouride crusts up.

Anyways, the power of the human mind is far greater than scientists can grasp. If it was used at its one time maximum potential, then who knows what we were capable of?

[The_Spartan]

Third eye is controlled by the Pineal Gland, which Flouride crusts up.

Anyways, the power of the human mind is far greater than scientists can grasp. If it was used at its one time maximum potential, then who knows what we were capable of?

Oh...No problem...carry on with your drop down the rabbit hole...wont bother to disturb.

[Notitha]

Sorry, I already took the red pill.

[Harte]

Everyone,

Just because vimanas aren't rampant in the Mahabharata is not enough.

There are vimanas all over the Ramayana and a hundred or more other writings - there's a lot of untranslated and unresearched Vedas.

The Hindus themselves credited the Greeks with the invention of the vimana.

That should tell you first that these stories aren't as old as the Hindu creationists (like Michael Cremo) try to make us believe.

Secondly, we know the Ancient Greeks pretty well. They weren't exactly flying around and they seem to have had no other industries that would certainly spin off from an aeronautics industry.

Now that's good enough. For reasonable loons.

Why would anyone believe it in the first place, even without any evidence to the contrary?

Harte

[ShadowSot]

Third eye is controlled by the Pineal Gland, which Flouride crusts up.

Anyways, the power of the human mind is far greater than scientists can grasp. If it was used at its one time maximum potential, then who knows what we were capable of?

No, it doesn't.

The human brain runs at full speed most of the time, each section utilized to serve it's particular function.

[icepick]

[blue]No offense intended guys, but I think everyone is going round in circles on this matter - it is clear to me from that palimpsest link, that the images/hieroglyphs are nothing more than an illusion caused by the reuse of rock. There were no helicopters back then, and although there may have been Ufos (the Egyptians spent an awful lot of their time looking up at the stars and probably would have seen them if they were knocking about), I doubt that these glyphs refer to them.

In my mind, the mystery has been solved. [/blue]

Sorry, but in no way do I believe the debunk for that set of glyphs. Not that I necessarily believe the obvious either. But if you played the odds? That would have the edge. There are three of those glyphs after all.

In my opinion, this comes under the 'need more data' department. If there weren't three glyphs, I'd say DISMISSED! But it's always too easy to say myth, or ludicrous. I'm one of those people who believe it should be as hard to disprove as prove. I'm also getting tired of hearing a debunk accepted no matter how far the reach. And it's getting a little old to see anybody going against the grain treated like a heretic. Not that I want them getting a 'blank check' either. I just want to read the actual work. Or see the glyphs that were 'printed over' .....

Yeah, I can get picky. I'm tired.

[ShadowSot]

They're explained here.

Edited September 4, 2010 by ShadowSot

[booNyzarC]

They're explained here.

Nice link, thanks ShadowSot!

[ShadowSot]

Nice link, thanks ShadowSot!

I found that awhile ago, Catchpenny is a great site for reference. Worth noting that Catchpenny's site was put together 2 years before Loonboy's post, followed by another 8 years to Icepick's reply.

Never get the protest ions that the over wright doesn't make sense... the Egyptians used hieroglyphs as writing, if they created these glyphs to represent something, you'd see them in other works as well.

[Qoais]

I'm with icepick on this one. One would be a marvel, two might be co-incidence, three is uncanny, and 4 is downright intentional. The article in the link talks about the "erosion" in the temple. It was sealed for heaven's sake. It was usually priests or high ranking people who could afford to build temples. Why couldn't it have been that whoever commissioned this temple, had visions, and saw these in a vision and decided to record it? Maybe he thought the Gods had given him the visions of their homeland or something, and he saw their different technologies. Nostradamus had visions and wrote about them, Ezekiel wrote about how God took him up in some flying device and he could see the world below him. Did he really go in a flying machine? Was there such things? Or did he have a vision of the future or of a higher plane of vibrational existence, or what? Since, as some have said, there's no evidence for the supportive constructs necessary to build and maintain flying craft, I'd say the dude had a vision of the future. If he was convinced the gods showed him these things, he would want to honor the gods, and record it in a temple.

[Scouser]

Found a decent site on Vimana's here: http://www.hinduwisdom.info/Vimanas.htm

There's no doubt, the texts do exist...

I like this quote:

"European scholarship regards human civilization as a recent progression starting yesterday with the Fiji islander, and ending today with Rockefeller, conceiving ancient culture as necessarily half savage culture." It is a superstition of modern thought that the march of knowledge has always been linear." "Our vision of "prehistory" is terribly inadequate. We have not yet rid our minds from the hold of a one-and-only God or one-and-only Book, and now a one-and-only Science."

~ wrote Shri Aurobindo Ghosh (1872-1950) most original philosopher of modern India.

[The_Spartan]

Vimana Shastra or vymanika Shastra are both written in the 20th century.

Vimana shastra or Brihad Vimana Shastra by Shri Bramhamuni Parivrajaka was published in the year 1959.

Vymanika Shastra - published by G.R Jotsyr is based on the dictations of one Pandit Subbaraya Shastry of Anekal to G.

Venkatachala Sharma during 1918-1923. A Hindi translation was published in 1959, the Sanskrit text with an English translation in 1973.

Other than the references in the Hindu Epics & Puranas, there was no other book detailing the existence of vimanas or methods to construct them, till the 20th century.

In fact Pandit Subbaraya Shastry of Anekal "channelled" the information and dictated it!!

Channelling....cool!

Why the hell didnt he channel some other important works? like anystuff that was practical?? FISHY!!

[The Puzzler]

How hard is it to build a glider that when you take off in off a mountain you glide for miles, plane glider type crafts wouldn't have been that hard to devise surely. Hang gliders even, a type of craft that flew imo would not be that hard to create in forms like that. You don't need a motor to fly. Landing can be tricky though...

[ShadowSot]

One would be a marvel, two might be co-incidence, three is uncanny, and 4 is downright intentional.

I'd only gauge three actually resembling technology. I'll agree the one resembling the heliocopter is close, but the one supposedly being a tank looks more like Luke Skywalker's landster. The one that's supposed to resemble a an airplane is sorta like the cartoon version of it.

It was sealed for heaven's sake

Y'mean this temple:

It was sealed at one point, sure. That was thousands of years ago.

Why couldn't it have been that whoever commissioned this temple, had visions, and saw these in a vision and decided to record it?

Because these are Egyptian Hieroglyphs, they are representations of the written language of the Egyptians, not just pictures.

When you seperate the originals from the write overs, you can translate it.

Er...

I used to know the translation of those glyphs, but I've forgotten where I found it.

Why couldn't it have been that whoever commissioned this temple, had visions, and saw these in a vision and decided to record it?

The temple belonged to Seti the first.

I don't know much about the temple itself, but such temples were used to extol the virtues of the Pharaoh for whom it's being built.

[Scouser]

Other than the references in the Hindu Epics & Puranas, there was no other book detailing the existence of vimanas or methods to construct them, till the 20th century.

Eh? I don't care if there are no others than the Hindu Epics and Puranas... some type of flying machines are mentioned in ancient Indian texts, and that's a fact.

Ramchandra Dikshitar (1896 – 1953) was a Professor of historian at Madras University and author of several books including War in Ancient India and Studies in Tamil language and history. In a special chapter of his book, he waxed poetic over his country’s contribution to aviation – inventing it!

Said the proud historian back in 1944:

“No question can be more interesting in the present circumstances of the world than India ’s contribution to the science of aeronautics. There are numerous illustrations in our vast Puranic and epic literature to show how well and wonderfully the ancient Indians conquered the air. To glibly characterize everything found in this literature as imaginary and summarily dismiss it as unreal has been the practice of both Western and Eastern scholars until very recently. The very idea indeed was ridiculed and people went so far as to assert that it was physically impossible for man to use flying machines. But today what with balloons, aero planes and other flying machines a great change has come over our ideas on the subject.”

…”the flying vimana of Rama or Ravana was set down as but a dream of the mythographer till aeroplanes and zeppelins of the present century saw the light of day. The mohanastra or the “arrow of unconsciousness” of old was until very recently a creature of legend till we heard the other day of bombs discharging poisonous gases."

That is another quote from that site i posted, his name is Ramchandra Dikshitar, i checked up on him and he isn't a noboddy, he was a historian, Indologist and Dravidologist from the Indian state of Tamil Nadu. He was a professor of history and archaeology in the University of Madras and is the author of standard text books on Indian history.

Even Indian Historians accept it as fact, but some dudes on a forum think they know better!

Edited September 4, 2010 by Scouser

[The_Spartan]

Eh? I don't care if there are no others than the Hindu Epics and Puranas... some type of flying machines are mentioned in ancient Indian texts, and that's a fact.

That is another quote from that site i posted, his name is Ramchandra Dikshitar, i checked up on him and he isn't a noboddy, he was a historian, Indologist and Dravidologist from the Indian state of Tamil Nadu. He was a professor of history and archaeology in the University of Madras and is the author of standard text books on Indian history.

Even Indian Historians accept it as fact, but some dudes on a forum think they know better!

No one is denying that In the Hindu Epics, there is description of flying machines or vimanas. Mr. Dikshithar's book "War In Ancient India" does indeed refer to the vimanas. N one denies that.

BUT..yes a big BUT He did not channelize any information or write a book on the science of flying machines. He just wrote on the passages of the Hindu Epics and Puranas that referred to Vimanas.

another BUT...is that he was thinking that the Brihad Vimana Shastra or the Vymanika Shastra were actual ancient treatises and had commented on it. That is his mistake.

The dude was great, one of the foremost Historians in India. We had to study his books in our Humanities class electives. I am no stranger to him.

Secondly, I come from India. For the past 12 years, i have been studying Indian History and Mythology as a Hobby.

edited - for typo and to delete some unwanted things.

Edited September 4, 2010 by The Spartan