Did Jesus Kill?

[bigsteff]

what the heck is this all about

the bible

oh wait what about the stories that were not included

i know...the bible..the directors cut

hey babyforrest tell me why the bible is real....and i 'll tell you why it's another story invented..by people who want to installed fear in the underlings beneath them

quick joke....

an oil rig is in need of salvation

jesus says to is loyal 12..lets walk out and save them

,,but lord it's 10 miles,,,say the 12

trust me says jesus

so they all start to walk into the water...jesus is level with the water

the 12 are 1ft under,,lord they say we are below the water,trust in me,says jesus

further out,jesus is level,lord we 're not going to make it,trust in me,says jesus

gulg glug lord we're drowning,,jesus says,,you thick a**h*l*s why didn't you walk along the pipeline like me

[Lionel]

The other controversy with the book of Thomas is that it would help establish the belief that Jesus was in India. In India, Jesus is known as Issa. If Thomas, the one follower that needed proof, wrote this gospel then Jesus was in India, and it would bridge at least 2 of the 3 major religions together. If that is the case then, Christians and Muslims are both following the wrong religion.

Forgive me for my ignorance, but how do you conclude this from the Bible of Thomas.

[omnimutant]

I guess what I want to know is that how can you Not belive in a part of the bible that was "left out" or lost. And yet whole heartedly belive in everything else the bible has to say?

I guess what it boils down to is why does anyone belive what the bible say's at all? I understand that many of you were probably tought as young impresionable children that this was right and thats way things are ment to be by your Parrents, who were most likey taught by their parents etc. But if you were to somehow put all of that aside for a moment, what in your mind would seperate the "bible" from say the national Enquirer(sp?) ?

Both are Texts writen by multiple people about people places and stories. The bible has more credibility only in the fact that it has been passed on by belivers for so long(and edited and re-translated etc.).

I'm not trying to say that it isn't a belivable book I just want to understand, what about this book, makes it belivable to you as aposed to any other book? And why belive one-half of the book and not the other?

Is it that one contains materials that you wish not to except for your own reality?

I dont know I'm just confused about this.

[Seraphina]

lol, a very...blunt point, but a valid one.

I've gone through the whole religious debate, and I have found that the people on the other side of the table consciously ignore evidence that points in an opposite direction of their beliefs...no counter arguements, no theories to try and disprove it, just...ignoring it. At most, you'll get a "that's wrong, because the bible says so."

However, as I say, I've been down that road, and it was very long, very complex, and I guarentee it lasts forever. I have no real wish to go down it again

[babyforrest]

hey babyforrest tell me why the bible is real

Bigsteff I wasn't talking to you, I was talking to Undead Crow. He made a statement and all I wanted to know was how he formed his opinion. What information that he knew of suggested what he said. Most of what he said though, has been edited out because it was deemed offensive. All I'm saying is if you are going to post something here, personal opinion or not, you have to be able to back it up. I didn't say whether I thought that the bible was real or not so I don't have to back up any of my statements.

[babyforrest]

I believe that the bible is real. In order for me to prove to you that the bible is real, you need to answer a question: Do you believe in God?

If you say yes, then you must believe in the bible for it is the word of God. It states the many miracles of Jesus Christ.

If you say no, you must then believe that the world was created by a series of accidents. By saying that the Universe was created by the big bang theory and the sun and Earth was just created, is like saying that if you pack a pile of wood and nails with dynamite it can explode to build a house.

The sun is the perfect distance away from Earth to sustain our life. There are 4 seasons (in most parts of the world) that never get too hot or too cold for life to exist. The orbit of Earth around the sun allows for humans to judge time perfectly, ie there is 60 seconds in a minute, 60 minutes in an hour, 24 hours in a day, 365 days in a year. We can tell when the seasons will change because it is always the same. It is so perfect that it never changes. Our moon also plays an important part for Earth because it's gravitational pull controls the tides.

Why do animals act the way they act? What makes the birds fly south in the winter and back north in the summer? We know that they fly south to keep warm and north because of the better breeding grounds, but how do the birds know that? How do they know that flying in a V shape is better for traveling? Lionesses in Africa work together as a team to kill the sickly animals in a herd. How do they know that if they act as a team then all of the lions can eat? Instinct tells them, but where does instinct come from?

Animals breath in oxygen and exhale carbon dioxide as a byproduct. We do this to survive. Plants need carbon dioxide for photosynthesis, and they give off oxygen as a byproduct. That's a pretty big coincidence.

Think about the human body. We have so many different systems that keep us alive and running smoothly. Our heart pumps our blood through vessels that lead to the lungs. The blood then exchanges carbon dioxide for oxygen and continues its travels throughout the body, exchanging oxygen for carbon dioxide to various cells to all parts of the body. This cycle continues until the day you die. So does the digestive system.

The cells in your body are constantly dividing. When a cell divides either by mitosis or meiosis (which I won't go into now because this post is long enough as it is) there are many stages that it must go through before it is finished. The way that DNA is replicated and how every small detail is taken care of really is a miracle. There are cells and molecules that are doing such astounding thngs right now that we can't even see. 200 years ago we didn't even know about them.

Now, as a scientist, I do believe in the big bang theory, evolution, etc., but I believe that God engineered all of it. As I stated before, you can't blow up some wood and nails and make a house.

So, Bigsteff or Undead Crow, what evidence suggests that the bible is not real? Can you tell me how these things happen without God?

[reese2]

Baby forrest,

That was the longest piece of nothing I have read in quite some time. You not only dodged a direct question, but you answered it with a question. Then you wrote about things that have nothing to do with the simplicity of the original question. It was like a mexican hat dance, you just kept going around, and around, and around, and around, and,...... well you get the point.

I believe that the bible is real, meaning it is a real book. Do I believe in God? No. Not everything has to be backed up with proof of existence. Just as some people have faith in God, some people have faith in the fact they just feel something isn't quite right about organized religion, and choose not to believe in it. The wind is real, I feel it on my skin, through my hair, but I cannot see it.

Some things are just opinion, and religion is one of them. Not one of us knows the right or wrong answer, because it ultimately lays in faith, whether that be faith that we feel it comes from spiritual depths, or from an organized layed out in front of you depth, or a scientific stand point. All of which, there is no right or wrong answer.

I personally like talking and debating religion, a lot of people don't and simply can't. Just remember, everyone here is right, to themselves. So, although this can be debated, there is no need to get angry or obnoxious. Keep this going in an open and mature way, because I have enjoyed reading all of the posts in this thread, except for the spectacle, as stated earlier.

So, don't be afraid to say one way or the other how you feel about something, without doing a dance. I don't think less of anyone that believes in something I don't. Maybe a little envious that I cannot except things blindly, and wishing that I had more faith in something that on paper sounds wonderful.

Reese

[babyforrest]

I'm sorry I was obnoxious, Reese. I thought I was making a valid point about the miracles of the world, and how I didn't think any of it could exist on it's own. I'll stop my 'dance' now. My intention was not to be annoying. If I sounded angry it's because I was a little upset because I was singled out even though I hadn't said anything for or against the bible. I just wanted to know why another member said what he said. After I asked for his opinion, I guess I just felt compelled to give my own. I won't post here anymore if that's how you feel.

[reese2]

Oh come now......... Did you read anywhere that I said or even suggested that I didn't want you to post here anymore? I am very blunt, and if I didn't say it, then I didn't think it.

You did get a tad angry, but not that bad, and you weren't obnoxious. Just long winded, and you ended up losing the initial attention and point you were making, because of that.

You shouldn't get angry at anyone, if they question you. You believe what you believe, and no one can say whether it is right or wrong.

Don't feel like you can't say things you believe. I wish more people here would have the balls to pipe up about what they believe religion wise, but no one ever does. Because someone always gets angry, instead of seeing that they just have a different perspective.

I am not religious by standard terms, I am however very spiritual, and I happen to like people that explain to me what they believe, and why. So everyone speak up here!!!! hehehe

Reese

[babyforrest]

That was the longest piece of nothing I have read in quite some time.

Does that sound like you were questioning me?

Not everything has to be backed up with proof of existence.

The whole point (if you'll read the posts from Undead Crow, my reply to Undead Crow, and Bigsteff's reply to me) was about proof. This was the only proof I could come up with on the spir of the moment.

although this can be debated, there is no need to get angry or obnoxious.

You did call me obnoxious, and I was a little upset, but I wasn't angry then and I'm not angry now.

I don't want to annoy anybody. I just thought that I would post my argument because I asked him for his. If you are on the same side as me but feel that I am obnoxious, that is saying a lot. According to you I was only hurting the debate by posting.

I have enjoyed reading all of the posts in this thread, except for the spectacle, as stated earlier.

[reese2]

The first paragraph of my post was directed to you, the rest was directed in general. (TO EVERYONE THAT BECOMES OBNOXIOUS OVER RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION)

Now, you seem to be getting obnoxious. (Don't take the leap through that door) Maybe you shouldn't type on the spur of the moment, but rather sit and think first, then type. Things become much clearer and less emotionally driven. You don't want to turn what I posted into something more than it is, do you?

Now, Baby Forrest, move on to a topical discussion, and it will be all good.. Ok?

I don't know if we believe the same things, either. If you explain to me what it is you believe. (Simply and to the point) then we can discuss it and see. I know that I always feel that I am the only one in the world that believes what I believe. (So, it would be nice to be on the same page with anyone.) Like I said before, these discussions don't last long here, because of the way people (in general) start to behave.

Reese

[Seraphina]

People, people, people! Come on now...as I've said, I've been down the religious debate road before, and it gets very nasty...this is usually how it starts. I'd suggest both sides hang up their gloves, eh? The longer it goes on, the more passionate about your arguements you're gonna get.

[reese2]

Seraphina, and Sarkypi..

This thread can veer in any way it wants to. I am going to post what I want to about it, and if you both don't want to discuss it, look away.

Reese

[Nie]

there are many stories of Jesus life, i read about Jesus going to India, Jesus and Maria Madalena having a baby, Jesus was an alien, etc... and i dont belive in a single one of them.

One of the most powerfull empires of the world changed its religion, 1/4 of the world population has strong beliefs in Jesus because He was the only one to be perfect. The Bible says that Satan tried to seduce Jesus in the desert, because Jesus had no sin. Well, if he killed a boy, i think that would "count" like a sin.

[spyro_86]

Okay, athiest here, objective veiw given...

The bible (that is, the section that concerns Jesus) was written by his followers after his death...probably with the joint intention of passing on his teachings, and turning him into an enduring martyr. The tales recounted in the bible are likely heavily romantisised to that end, and any tale recounted or written would have to have that same purpose.

I think the fact that, upon reading the entry where Jesus killed a child for bumping into him, someone declaired that they deserved it because Jesus was perfect, and could do no wrong...does suggest that they managed to achieve their aim in what was such a powerful portrail of a man's life that many people, even in modern times, take it very seriously.

Because of that, I don't see how any of Jesus' followers would either be in a position to recount, or do so even if they were, a story from Jesus' childhood, that would turn his teachings on his head, and could potentially shatter the image they were attempting to portray.

Like all mythologies (please don't take offence at this, but I consider the bible a mytholigy, in the same sense the ancient greeks had mount Olympis, and the Vikings had Thor) the chances are this tale was formulated as a corruption of varous other stories, the main character of which gradually became 'Jesus Christ' as it was told throughout the years.

I agree.

[reese2]

That is interesting Spyro. So, you are a true Atheist, which means you just believe you exist?

I happen to look at religion (organized) as belonging to the mythology group, as well. Although, and I don't know if anyone else thinks this but, I look at old, old practices of religion and spirituality as probably being more true than what we see today.. I only make that assumption because that far back, you didn't have things being contorted and twisted to fit any certain group or reasoning. You just sort of had this spirituality, that just was. It was all so simple. Not bogged down by anything that clouds religion today. Like, the bible.

Reese

[Nie]

I agree with you in some points Reese, because the religion is like a ritual in these days. We see churches filled with gold, the Vatican and their mercedes (oh, am i going to hear bout this...), to say the truth, everything was went the wrong way. The true religion is the one you make, your beliefs, I dont think anyone can save themself by going to church every sunday and having tons of statues in home if their "heart" does not believe.

About the bible, i have to disagree, even if it was written by men, it is very clear in its message, you either agree or ignore.

[Nie]

Sorry if i got a little off the topic there,

I think we must see Jesus and God has being one, and God has showed wrath and killed, Jesus showed wrath in the temple that was made a market, and if the story is true, we showed wrath and killed that boy.

The Gospel of Thomas is controversial in many ways. Can someone correct me if im wrong, but i think it is there that the church is openly criticised, by saying that God is not inside a house, but if you break a piece of wood, God is there, if you look under a rock, God is there.

[Kryso]

No offence but I don’t believe in any lost books of the bible. The word bible comes from biblica, meaning small library. Its made of 66 small books wrote by over 40 different people over a 1,300 year period. And the attention and magnitude of research and involvement that has gone into the bible to produce it over the thousands of years, I just can’t see that anything would have been missed out.

And as far as I know, Jesus didn’t cause any miracles until after here was baptised by his cousin John the Baptist! And his first recorded miracle was turning large pots of water into wine!

And the wording is all wrong, can you imagine Jesus saying ‘Damn?’

And with the reference to him saying, “From this moment you, too, will dry up like a tree, and you'll never produce leaves or root or bear fruit.” Sounds like its been simply copied from another part of the bible, when Jesus spots a fig tree, and heads towards it, expecting fruit. And the tree is bare, so he curses it!

It does have sections that tie up with other references, but the other bits look like someone with an over active mind had been trying to trick a lot of people!

[seeking]

it was a translation i believe, perhaps the person translating the original translated it into a little more modern day terms, but besides the point, i do not believe any of these stories to be true, i dont believe the bible to be true, i do believe however jesus was a real person, i just beleive that he is the most succesful cult leader of all time, hes long gone and still has followers, and forever will have followers...and thats right i said it....jesus was a cult leader

[Seraphina]

lol..in fairness, Jesus was no such thing...he preached a way of life that was, also in fairness, a rather good one, with surprisingly modern thinking...

It's the people that came after him, and glorified him into something divine, that were the 'cult leaders'.

[reese2]

I agree Seraphina. He was real, most of us here at least agree to that. Whether he was good ALL the time, who really knows. Unless we believe that he was of holy decent, then isn't he to capable of slipping every now and then? He did think outside the box, and was very modern in his ways. That set him apart right there. Especailly since he lived in such a tumultrious (sp?) (Can't think right now!) time. There was violence everywhere around him, unkindness, and just complete disregard for humanity. So, wouldn't anyone that thought differently and reacted to violence differently, stand out?

Reese

(I am really glad that everyone is just posting their honest thoughts, without anger) Anytime I can learn something new, or understand people better, is better for me.

[Casper]

I was ( maybe i still am i dont know ....i have my doubts ...but then again i am only 18 ) a Catholic .Catholism is said to be the religion actually started up by Jesus followers with St Peter being the first Pope. Even we as a group do not take the bible literally...especially the old testament ..Adam and Eve( and the book of Genesis) for example....simply a creation story...analogous to the myths invented by the Greeks and Romans to explain what they did not witness. i apologise if i am repeating anything i havent had time to read the entire thread...i just have a general idea of the argument, there appear to be many different arguments. So i have already stated my opinon and the opinion held by the general Catholic church on many of the old testament stories. The books of Thomas seem to contradict what the New Testament ( being the part of the bible that Christians in general are supposed to follow with the utmost devotion) says about Jesus. One of the messages Jesus gave was to forgive you brother not 7 times but 77 times7 times. It doesnt seem plausible that Jesus would murder ( yes ..murder...because that is what it would have been if it was true) a child for making an error judgement. Then again maybe what the books of Thomas were tyring to portray is that instead of Jesus possesing the most unblemished concept of right judgement, perhaps Jesus really was born unto this Earth as a human with to some degree a human mind which was riddled with the imperfections that define us as humans.

Basically what i mean is perhaps he was still learning exactly what God's plan for him . This however, being partly Catholic , does not sit well with me and it contradicts the trinity concept that includes Jesus being God as well as his son.

Something else i would like note: I really want to know what some one said in a n earlier post about the bibel and a whole in the ground...i mean .why was it edited..i think people are silly to get all uptight about religion among other things..what does it matter what other people think...isnt it interesting just to hear what they have to say ? Sure getting p***ed of is natural ...but who doesnt enjoy a good heated debate !!! i love em!!!

[kpruitt]

These so-called "lost books of the Bible" are simply fictional tales written in the third and fourth centuries. The Bible is complete as it stands; 66 books written by 40 different authors. There is an overabundance of internal evidence in the Bible that indicates these 40 individuals were divinely inspired. I know that people run in to Christian's who get upset when you question the Bible. I am a Christian and I encourage you to question the Bible; study it; look in to the marvelous continuity revealed in this amazing book. God isn't going to fall of His throne because you have questions. The Bible can stand up to your investigations. We have nothing to fear in seeking out the truth other than having our worldview turned upside down... and that's never a bad thing.

[eddie]

Firsrt off, thank you Phantom.

Second the experts never cannanized the writings of Thomas. I'm sure they did not for very good reasons, along with other writings, the Bible is the word breathed of God, some have mentioned that it seems to contradict itself, rather it is very complex and takes years to fully understand. I would expect nothing less from the creator of the Universe.