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celtchic

Did Jesus Kill?

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Vox

Eddie, your belief in the teachings of Jesus astound me. You are the sort of christian I would always aspire to be. I am Catholic (I know that the mere mention of this might spurn people against me lol), and I do believe in the structure and hierachy of the Church. Yes before anyone points it out, I do realise that the ecclesiastical figures do fall, and they fall hard, with issues such as child abuse and whatnot, but as eddie said, it's only a few giving a bad rep. The Catholic Church has done alot for hummanity (schools, etc) and arguably it has done alot against it as well (crusades and inquisitions to name a couple). Let us remember that the Church IS run by men, which, are destined to fail and to fall, it is called human weakness. But nowadays the Church holds less political influence and still supports alot of aid to the third world countries as well as the homeless, etc. These are good things. The church still has large roles to play in our society and will thankfully keep on doing so for quite some time. I also wanted to mention that I agree with eddie's statement that if you truly repent your sins then you will be delivered from hell. Not the sort of idea that most people have of a vengeful god, but that's how the system works.

p.s. It is alot more difficult to truly repent one's sins than what most people think! (personal belief, I will elaborate further if you guys so desire for me to do so)

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Nintendork
if you click the quote button, the person's post appears in a box under yours. Just cut the text in there down to whatever you want to quote.

tongue.gif or you can just copy and paste

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Vera Ikon

I just wanted to throw my two cents in about the whole "lost gospels/was Jesus a killer?" thing. That gospel of Thomas reminds me a lot of the stories of Hercules. Hercules killed his own wife and children in a fit of madness (madness caused by the goddess Hera...but he killed them nonetheless). In his youth, Hercules did a lot of things that proved he wasn't a normal human. Those things weren't always constructive; they just served to prove he was a demigod.

So let's say that Jesus was a demigod ("God made flesh", as my Christians friends would say) with extraordinary powers. But he was a child once with a child's mind and a child's temper...then who's to say he didn't use his power to kill those who angered him?

Also, there are interesting parallels between the Biblical accounts of Jesus and more ancient myths and gods. The miraculous conception of Jesus is very similar to the Egyptian story of Isis, Osiris, and their miraculously conceived son Horus. Horus eventually restored his father's kingdom on earth after the murdered Osiris went on to rule in the afterlife. "On Earth as it is in Heaven", anybody?

So all things considered, I think it's conceivable that Jesus misused his powers before he came to know his true purpose.

Also, Jesus started preaching pretty late in his life (age 30)...for all we know, by that point he might've taken over Joseph's carpentry business and gotten married to (as some liberal scholars like to believe) his second cousin, Mary Magdalene. She wasn't a "fallen woman"-- the Apostles just hated her because a) some of them weren't very keen on women to being with (*cough*Peter*cough*) and cool.gif she would've distracted Jesus from his mission.

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crosswarrior
I've got no problem with blind faith...but logic, and logical thinking, is what actually moves the world.

First off all Seraphina I would say that it sounds like that guy who kicked you off the forum must have doubted his own Salvation if he could not take an opposing view. I pity him.

As for the quote, is the Jihad based on logic? Or the Soviet Union? Or Nazi Germany for that matter. They were not. Neither is Christianity by any stretch of the imagination. It is my belief the the Earth is truly moved not by the mind, but by the heart. For as a man believes in his heart so he does.

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reese2

As for the quote, is the Jihad based on logic? Or the Soviet Union? Or Nazi Germany for that matter.

I don't think Seraphina had Jihad, Soviet Union, or Nazi Germany in mind when talking about logic.

I think she was talking about what is logically a more probable reality. God or NO God. (She chooses no God, if you couldn't tell)

But, what do I know??? whistling2.gif

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crosswarrior

I don't believe she had any of these activites in mind either. original.gif I guess what I am trying to say is that most of the ideas that relly cause things to happen are cause by belief not logic. and with respect of God; I look at creation and say he exists, others look at suffering and say He does not exist or is a tyrant if he does. Both are reached by logical conclusion; but only belief will determine which fork of the road you take.

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reese2

Hmmm..... Well some people look at science as a good way of determining if they think he exists......

tongue.gif

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crosswarrior

The one thing that bother s me about sciience and religion is how can science if you are dealing with something that is supposed to not be of this world blink.gif

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Seraphina

Crosswarrior - actually, I was refering to moving forward tongue.gif which religion has yet to accomplish for our society in any way whatsoever.

It's been science and logic that has allowed us to advance...not only in terms of technology, but also as a culture. If you compair us to fundamentalist countries, I think you'll all agree that we're a great deal better off tongue.gif

We don't stone women to death for becoming pregnant after being raped...we don't put a death sentance on people's heads for writing a book...we don't force women to wander around wrapped up like tacos incase the sight of her ears drives a man sexually mad, causes him to rape her, and result in her being stoned to death tongue.gif

We no longer barge into other people's countries and demand that they change their system of belief to our's...for that matter, we also don't kill those that refuse to do so anymore.

All of the above were problems caused when society was centered around religion. We're now moving in the direction of logical thinking instead...and it's plain to see we're far far better off because of it.

Do you think you'll ever see another Salem witch trial in this day and age in the western world?

So, in answer to your question...

The one thing that bother s me about sciience and religion is how can science if you are dealing with something that is supposed to not be of this world

Because I'd rather put my faith in science, which actually IS working miracles in the world today, than religion...which has done absolutely nothing.

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crosswarrior

Good point.

Religion can not split an atom, nor can it send a man to the moon. As for dealing with man in a despicable way the Christians had the Inquisistion and the Salem witch trials, The islamics there oppression of woman and the Jihad. But among the logical atheist there is Stalin and Mao; along with all they did. So though I agree with you that it is science that moves our civilization. It is whatever religion we believe that drives our science and how we use it.

Science has no soul.

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Seraphina

It is whatever religion we believe that drives our science and how we use it.

Well...strictly speaking, religion held back scientific advancement altogether for some 1000 years during the dark ages, when anyone remotely forward thinking was murdered by the church whistling2.gif

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moe eubleck

Science has no soul.

O contraire!! The ultimate question of both science and religion is " why am I here ?" Both use different means to reach the same ends: An answer for the unknown.

So to say that science has no soul would be saying that religion has no soul as well.

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crosswarrior

Maybe our science is determined by what we believe. huh.gif

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moe eubleck

very true crosswarrior. thumbsup.gif

Infact, the human perception of reality as a whole, is based on what we believe it to be.

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crosswarrior

What is reality? Who am I? What is my perpose on Earth? What Does this have to do with Jesus killing blink.gif

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moe eubleck

what did your quote "science has no soul" have anything to do with jesus killing?

Simple. Its called the evolution of a conversation. If my answers frighten you , then cease asking scary questions. tongue.gif

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crosswarrior

I think it spawned from dicussions started about 100 postings ago. And besides if it's true that the Bible has changed over the years. Then it is certainly acceptable

for this thread to change over the postings. It's EVOLVING grin2.gif

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moe eubleck

ah.. so you believe in evolution.

.....no no no! Just kidding. Please lets NOT go there. wacko.gif

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crosswarrior

Yes. let us keep to one contaversial discussion at a time. Safer that way. grin2.gif

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joc

Did Jesus kill?

In a manner of speaking... yes, he did.

He killed the heart of un-forgiveness by

forgiving those who were crucifying him.

He killed the pain of death through his resurrection.

He killed the power of evil to enslave mankind.

He killed once and for all the sin that had kept mankind in

bondage.

He killed.

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wunarmdscissor

Tendo.

Thats not a very forgiving christian attutude to have.

Are you saying that because i have argued with my mother i deserve death? ohmy.gif

Wot if your mother is a bad person?

P.S. My mum is a very nice person grin2.gif

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lovecraft777

(By no means am I preaching- I needed to say this so it had another side to it- I respect other ideas and beliefs even if they are not my own)

I understand we all have our ideas and beliefs and that is totally fine. This is the place for it. I find it hard to hear view points that are not true. The idea that Christianity has not changed is false. I’m not sure if you have gone to a church or just have formed this idea on your own but the Christian church (if it is good at all) continues to be flexible and changeable. The only thing that does not is the word of God, the bible. That has no room for change because of the truth. Some ways that were done in the Old Testament like stoning was abolished when Christ died on the cross. This changed a lot of things. The sins were still the same, but judgment and punishment by man changed. The whole thing revolved around righteousness and love. There was talk about religious accomplishment in society. It is a lack of Christian based morals that have us were we are today with the problems that we have. No one says you have to be a Christian. Even atheist can appreciate and see the importance of Christian morals in our nation.

I agree that science has moved us along. Yes, historically religion has held it back. The idea is that this is a gift from God. Everyone has them because if we were all the same it wouldn’t work. It gives us purpose for our lives. To separate the two is a slap in the face. It’s nothing new though to use our gifts for the wrong reasons.

The problem isn’t with God and who God is; it is how man manages it. It isn’t God who preaches one way and lives his life another. It is not God who stones a rapped woman, it was man. It was Jesus Christ who came across found a sinning woman, forgave her and told her to sin no more. It was Jesus Christ who saved one from getting stoned by saying let the one who has never sinned cast the first stone. Point is not God and who God is; it is man who messes it up.

How are we better off? Sure we don’t stone people or crucify them. Do our kids not got to school and shoot it up? Do we not have parents killing their newborns and other aged children and dumping the bodies? Do we not have the worst drug problem that we ever had? Do we not have a much higher rate of rap, murder, molestation, and embezzlement then ever before? Isn’t teen suicide higher then it ever has been? If you were run over in the street, would anyone stop for you? We may improve in technology and science, but we are socially falling apart piece by piece. We have lost the respect of morality. We have lost the fear of recourse. There is no longer a fear of punishment. If we still stoned people for execution, would we be were we are now? (By no means do I think it should come back) We care more for the rights of animals and how they are treated then how we treat each other.

What happened in Salem and the conversions by the sword are terrible and disgusting. None of those things were Christian in how they were dealt with. The Christian way is to love. It is to love even the most unlovable. If we have to die for it, that is cool, but it is our bag baby! That might sound like no Christianity you every heard of, or it might sound right on. It may even sound dumb. I dig it, I use to think it! It’s not about being stuck in your ways; it’s about riding the waves of change and flowing with it. You are ever changing but the board is the same and the waves keep moving and changing as well. You are you, the board is the word, and the waves are the world. It’s true that some churches don’t change and they do what they want to do. So if you don’t ride the wave and do your own thing, you crash and you look like an idiot. That makes the rest of us look bad. Check out Brian Head Welch today and you will see the poster boy of not being typical.

No religion can’t split an atom, but God can do that and more. Again, religion is the country club made by man to cattier to their needs. What God wants is totally different. He wants to know us, have a relationship with us, and to follow the laws because we want to. Too many people see the wrong side of religion and get angry because of it. I tell you that you should because that isn’t what it was meant to be. There is a lot of good that you are not seeing and that is what stinks about it.

So I do see your points, I agree that organized religion gives itself a bad rap. I have been in some terrible churches. I have been in some terrible religions. I have seen everything that you has been spoken of here. Once I filtered that out and found out what it really was about, I saw it differently! The point is that man really messes things up and takes thing wrong. Man does what man thinks is right and doesn’t’ always get it right. The people who truly represent God the way they should don’t get noticed very often because it isn’t for show. It isn’t a Boy Scout badge or how reporting how many charities you donate to. It is suppose to be between that person and God. Don’t hate use all, not all religious folk are created equal!

(A closer study and not just reading the Bible could clear up a lot of these items. A good read is Rob Bell’s book’s, they are very clear and spoken by a cool cat!)

Take care.

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seanph
In a religion class a few years ago it was mentioned that there is a story in which a young Jesus Christ kills another boy. I can't remember if this tale is told in one of the missing books of the bible or not. I heard the same thing a few years later on a show on the History Channel. I am seeking more information on this topic. A web URL or any information would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Celtchic

Good morning C. :) The story you are referring to, is found in the apocryphal writings of a book called the Infancy Gospel of Thomas. This gospel was written in the second century or so -- give or take. It did not make it into the New Testament for obvious reasons. Jesus is not exactly portrayed in the loving manner those striving for orthodoxy wanted to present. So, it was left on the cutting room floor if you will.

For more on this gospel from a strictly academic viewpoint, visit Early Christian Writings here ...

Early Christian Writings: The Infancy Gospel of Thomas

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/infancythomas.html

I would also visit the History Channel for more information. They have done a series of excellent documentaries -- some of the best I've seen -- regarding apocryphal texts. This series is entitled "Banned from the Bible." You could probably visit YouTube as well, view various parts of the series there. Also, Google Video has it.

Google Video: Banned from the Bible

http://video.google.ca/videosearch?q=Banne...ur=3&emb=0#

Most kindly,

Sean

Edited by seanph

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ambelamba
I am replying to my own question because I finally found what I was looking for: The story of Jesus killing is found in Thomas’ Gospel Of The Infancy Of Jesus Christ.

That book is nothing but a very juvenile fanfic. (I mean as in very immature) It doesn't have that much scholarly value for studying the early life of Jesus. Or probably the zero value.

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3rd rock resident alien

Its all just a "pretend" story. A pretend story that grows with its readers. It then becomes their everyday actions for right or wrong. There is some truth maybe as to the characters but as to referring to god, its just a pretend. Pretend there is a god, and this is its story.

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