Guest Lottie Posted February 20, 2006 #1 Share Posted February 20, 2006 British historian David Irving has been found guilty in Vienna of denying the Holocaust of European Jewry and sentenced to three years in prison. He had pleaded guilty to the charge, based on a speech and interview he gave in Austria in 1989. "I made a mistake when I said there were no gas chambers at Auschwitz," he told the court in the Austrian capital. Irving appeared stunned by the sentence, and told reporters: "I'm very shocked and I'm going to appeal." An unidentified onlooker told him: "Stay strong!". Irving's lawyer said he considered the verdict "a little too stringent". "I would say it's a bit of a message trial," said Elmar Kresbach. But Karen Pollock, chief executive of the UK's Holocaust Educational Trust disagreed. "Holocaust denial is anti-Semitism dressed up as intellectual debate. It should be regarded as such and treated as such," Ms Pollock told the BBC News website. Fears that the court case would provoke right-wing demonstrations and counter-protests did not materialise, the BBC's Ben Brown at the court in Vienna said. Irving arrived in the court room handcuffed, wearing a blue suit, and carrying a copy of Hitler's War, one of many books he has written on the Nazis, and which challenges the extent of the Holocaust. Irving was arrested in Austria in November, on a warrant dating back to 1989, when he gave a speech and interview denying the existence of gas chambers at Auschwitz. He was stopped by police on a motorway in southern Austria, where he was visiting to give a lecture to a far-right student fraternity. He has been held in custody since then. 'I've changed' During the one-day trial, he was questioned by the prosecutor and chief judge, and answered questions in fluent German. He admitted that in 1989 he had denied that Nazi Germany had killed millions of Jews. He said this is what he believed, until he later saw the personal files of Adolf Eichmann, the chief organiser of the Holocaust. "I said that then based on my knowledge at the time, but by 1991 when I came across the Eichmann papers, I wasn't saying that anymore and I wouldn't say that now," Irving told the court. "The Nazis did murder millions of Jews." In the past, he had claimed that Adolf Hitler knew little, if anything, about the Holocaust, and that the gas chambers were a hoax. COUNTRIES WITH LAWS AGAINST HOLOCAUST DENIAL Austria Belgium Czech Republic France Germany Israel Lithuania Poland Romania Slovakia Switzerland In 2000, a British court threw out a libel action he had brought, and declared him "an active Holocaust denier... anti-Semitic and racist". On Monday, before the trial began, he told reporters: "I'm not a Holocaust denier. Obviously, I've changed my views. "History is a constantly growing tree - the more you know, the more documents become available, the more you learn, and I have learned a lot since 1989." Asked how many Jews were killed by Nazis, he replied: "I don't know the figures. I'm not an expert on the Holocaust." Of his guilty plea, he told reporters: "I have no choice." He said it was "ridiculous" that he was being tried for expressing an opinion. "Of course it's a question of freedom of speech... I think within 12 months this law will have vanished from the Austrian statute book," he said. source Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
__Kratos__ Posted February 20, 2006 #2 Share Posted February 20, 2006 Just got done reading this... As bad as it is to deny the Holocaust... what measure of free speech is there? It should be a human right to free speech and just because a bunch of people don't like what is being said is no excuse to put up a law to ban it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lottie Posted February 20, 2006 #3 Share Posted February 20, 2006 (edited) How did I know you were going to mention Freedom of Speech LOL! Denying that the holocaust existed is denying the murders of millions of innocent lives and is completely disrespectful to their memories. I am all for freedom of speech but it can also be taken to the extreme like what has been happening with the cartoons and this is a very good example of how one can abuse such freedom and turn it into something dangerous. Edited February 20, 2006 by Lottie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rykster Posted February 20, 2006 #4 Share Posted February 20, 2006 61 million people died in WWII. (best figure I can find) How many Jews were actually fighting the war? 6 million Jews died, sad, truly. But 55 million other people died as well. Personally, I think it is high time Israel stopped with the guilt trip it imposes on the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr. E Posted February 20, 2006 #5 Share Posted February 20, 2006 I'd say there's a difference between dying while fighting, and being plucked out of your homes and sent to concentration camps, starved, gased, then cremated. these people didn't die fighting, they were kidnapped and murdered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lottie Posted February 20, 2006 #6 Share Posted February 20, 2006 61 million people died in WWII. (best figure I can find) How many Jews were actually fighting the war? 6 million Jews died, sad, truly. But 55 million other people died as well. Personally, I think it is high time Israel stopped with the guilt trip it imposes on the world. People will die in wars. If you are fighting in a war there is a likely hood that you will die but that is your choice. However to ask how many Jews were fighting in the war ...thousands for their freedom and for their lives! You cannot even begin to compare with what happens in a war to what happened to the millions of people who died at the hand of the Nazis it is just plain ignorance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rykster Posted February 20, 2006 #7 Share Posted February 20, 2006 didn't die fightingAnd why not? They should have been in the thick of the fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
__Kratos__ Posted February 20, 2006 #8 Share Posted February 20, 2006 How did I know you were going to mention Freedom of Speech LOL! Denying that the holocaust existed is denying the murders of millions of innocent lives and is completely disrespectful to their memories. I am all for freedom of speech but it can also be taken to the extreme like what has been happening with the cartoons and this is a very good example of how one can abuse such freedom and turn it into something dangerous. You must be a bit psychic, Lottie. Disrespectful yes... but still what if we banned all speech that was deemed 'disrespectful'? Just like when that call to assassinate Chavez was made in international news, he wanted Pat Robertson to be punished for it. One example... My thing is... the beauty of free speech is, you can voice your opinion and shouldn't face punishement from the goverment or law. The cartoons, are still free speech... if some people cannot handle that and feel the need to get violent in this day and age...the problem lies with them. As you can rebuttle anything that is said that you don't like and if you don't... you always have the freedom to ignore. Think what the world would be like if everybody rioted and started acting like the good handful of Muslims did, everytime there was a disagreement. So clearly is it not a majority of people that do such things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lottie Posted February 20, 2006 #9 Share Posted February 20, 2006 (edited) And why not? They should have been in the thick of the fight. Because Rykster they were dying in their thousands being suffocated to death by toxic gas, being beaten to death, starved, raped, tortured in the most brutal dispicable ways, experimented on and this was women and children. ..need I go on. I shan't as this is a family forum. Your ignorant and uncompassionate attitude is astounding. Edited February 20, 2006 by Lottie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bella-Angelique Posted February 20, 2006 #10 Share Posted February 20, 2006 I think as a US citizen this is horrendous. Unless you are inciting someone to commit violence there is no reason to me for any of this. There are different forums for everything, and some are hate forums and associations. If people do not want to read it or hear it they can stay out of those types of places. If mainstream media or organized forums reject a message it is their choice and an agreement of people that I applaud, but private gatherings of non-violent speech being considered a crime is terrible to me. Anyone's opinion on something can be twisted to use it to incite violence, but it is only the one who incites violence that is guilty of a crime to me. Beatrice Hall I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. -- The Friends of Voltaire, 1906 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bella-Angelique Posted February 20, 2006 #11 Share Posted February 20, 2006 You must be a bit psychic, Lottie. Just like when that call to assassinate Chavez was made in international news, he wanted Pat Robertson to be punished for it. I really do think that calling on someone to be murdered is inciting violence. I think the punishment should fit the crime however. I think six months in jail would do it. And if they do it again perhaps a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanato Posted February 20, 2006 #12 Share Posted February 20, 2006 Good, dening the murder of one is more then enough but deniing the murder of MILLIONS, is even more so. You change your history you will forget what happend, you forget what happend and it will happen again. ~Thanato Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
__Kratos__ Posted February 20, 2006 #13 Share Posted February 20, 2006 I really do think that calling on someone to be murdered is inciting violence. I think the punishment should fit the crime however. I think six months in jail would do it. And if they do it again perhaps a year. He was just voicing his opinion. Good, dening the murder of one is more then enough but deniing the murder of MILLIONS, is even more so. You change your history you will forget what happend, you forget what happend and it will happen again. ~Thanato I agree, it shouldn't be forgotten... "In Germany, the Nazis first came for the Communists, and I did not speak up, for I was not a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak up, for I was not a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak up, for I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I did not speak up, for I was a Protestant. And then they came for me, and by that time, no one was left to speak up." - Martin Niemoller Who will speak up for free speech before it is too late? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bella-Angelique Posted February 20, 2006 #14 Share Posted February 20, 2006 Do you think that Imans calling for the murder of US citizens is just voicing an opinion? I do not think publically calling for an action to be done that is a crime is an opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rykster Posted February 20, 2006 #15 Share Posted February 20, 2006 While we were dieing in foxholes. The Jews were cowards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
__Kratos__ Posted February 20, 2006 #16 Share Posted February 20, 2006 Do you think that Imans calling for the murder of US citizens is just voicing an opinion? I do not think publically calling for an action to be done that is a crime is an opinion. Yes, I still disagree with him though. Calling for it... isn't much. There are differences between orders, opinions and threats. I find it sad that they are all being merged into one definition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daughter of the Nine Moons Posted February 20, 2006 #17 Share Posted February 20, 2006 The subject of the Holocaust is is an extremely sensitive one for many people. People were killed not by an invading army on a battle field, but instead they were rounded up like cattle and exterminated. They were denied the right to exist and generations of families were wiped out. I will ask everyone to keep this thread respectful in order to encourage thoughtful discussion. Thank you all in advance for your cooperation. Dot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffybunny Posted February 20, 2006 #18 Share Posted February 20, 2006 Just got done reading this... As bad as it is to deny the Holocaust... what measure of free speech is there? It should be a human right to free speech and just because a bunch of people don't like what is being said is no excuse to put up a law to ban it. Freedom is more important than offending the memory of dead people. Making laws to control what people think or say is wrong in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stellar Posted February 21, 2006 #19 Share Posted February 21, 2006 While we were dieing in foxholes. We? In how many foxholes did you take part in the war? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnuKabal Posted February 21, 2006 #20 Share Posted February 21, 2006 stalin had alot more people killed then hitler, the reasons do not matter the numbers are still greater. the jews need to stop trying to make people feel guilty, they should feel guilty about not fighting back since they would die anyway. most jews totally denied human instinct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anubi Posted February 21, 2006 #21 Share Posted February 21, 2006 you just cannot whitewash what people say as freedom of speech in certain parts of europe after what happened in the war, maybe freedom of a speech is the ideal ideology you can indulge in from the comfort of your amchairs so far away from events , but these events are still too raw for too many here still. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lottie Posted February 21, 2006 #22 Share Posted February 21, 2006 stalin had alot more people killed then hitler, the reasons do not matter the numbers are still greater. the jews need to stop trying to make people feel guilty, they should feel guilty about not fighting back since they would die anyway. most jews totally denied human instinct You should go and read up on what actually happened before making ridiculous remarks as the above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PLO Posted February 21, 2006 #23 Share Posted February 21, 2006 well it is strange that a large majority of jews would hang about in germany, i dont get that, i would have legd it with all the smart ones like einstein. If that guys leavin the country, then thatd pretty much tell me all i needed to know. As for their actions of cowardice, most of the jews effectively became queslings and formed local militias working with SS untis to spy on and capture other jews thinking they would be treated better, they got killed too. But unless you were actually jewish or an SS agent who lived through it, no one really has much of a valid opinion on it to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
__Kratos__ Posted February 21, 2006 #24 Share Posted February 21, 2006 you just cannot whitewash what people say as freedom of speech in certain parts of europe after what happened in the war, maybe freedom of a speech is the ideal ideology you can indulge in from the comfort of your amchairs so far away from events , but these events are still too raw for too many here still. Of the millions of people from many countries that have fought so we may finally have free speech in this world... should all be forgotten then? You should go and read up on what actually happened before making ridiculous remarks as the above. I agree. Some of the comments in here have shown great ignorance to the holocaust. If you want to start somewhere, look up Block 10 for the Nazi experiments. After that I'm sure you can work your way around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnuKabal Posted February 21, 2006 #25 Share Posted February 21, 2006 i getting tired of everytime somebody doesn't like something someone said they call it ignorant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts