Poll reveals 40pc of Muslims want sharia law

[zephyr]

No Zephyr, we had no idea you people were such nutters are to react this way to drawings

That is a load of nonsense, Talon, because you are full of stereotypes which is demonstrated by your use of 'you people'. The only way I have reacted to the drawings is what you read in my posts about them here; that those cartoonists and their publishers are narrow-minded fascists that look for nothing but trouble through hatemongering. If you would like to hear more of my reactions, don't hesitate to ask!

Actually you'd be surprised how much these riots are making people hate Islam. Certainly the number of people I know who now say their sick of Islam and want it out of this country has risen since the riots from the fringe to general consensus

Which only proves my point, that the fascists on all sides are succeeding to fool the naive into hatred and xenephobia. The number of people in Germany hating the Jews rose sharply as well before the Holocaust. I suppose the main question is: is Europe mature enough to learn from its own recent history or not yet? And if not, how many more Holocausts would it take for it to do so?

We welcoming you

Thanks, but I'm not in your country!

You really do live in another planet Zephyr.

Not unless you consider Iran as being another planet.

The Nazis are no more going to come to power again in Europe

Inshallah!

you're stupid prophesy coming true about Iran being unbeatable because two people still have not been born yet.

Whaaaaat? Which two people? What does beating Iran have to do with this conversation? Addicted to warmongering, are we?

Then you'll find out what intolerance is.

Is that a threat, Talon? What would you like to do to me this time? You got a new missile or something? What is it designed to specifically hit in my house? Not my Samavar, I hope!

[+joc]

That is a load of nonsense, Talon, because you are full of stereotypes which is demonstrated by your use of 'you people'. The only way I have reacted to the drawings is what you read in my posts about them here; that those cartoonists and their publishers are narrow-minded fascists that look for nothing but trouble through hatemongering. If you would like to hear more of my reactions, don't hesitate to ask!

Actually Zephyr, Talon is correct. Are we as free peoples supposed to just walk on egg shells around the 'Muslim Community' for fear of 'hurting their precious religious feelings'?

I should be free to say without reprisal that Muhammed is a twisted child molestor and therefore all Muslims are twisted child molestors. Not that I really believe that...but if I say it out loud I might get killed. And you want to talk about Fascism. Get a grip. The Muslim Community is out of touch with reality. The world will not tolerate that behaviour.

[Guest Lottie]

I can't help but feel sorry for Zephyr, its not like he is the only person who lives in Iran and is Iranian....

[zephyr]

Zephyr there has never been 'blind hatred' for the Muslim population over here. As Wurm said in the UK we have lived peacefully side by side people from all different walks of life / religion/ ethinicities for decades. Everyone who lives in this country is allowed the freedom of speech and expression and to practice their religion as they choose. Any discriminatory approach has only ever been talked of by hard right wing groups like the BNP who are kept in check by our very very tough laws on racism and discrimination... as Wurm said.

We are probably the most culturally diverse and tolerant country in the world. Its not until a bunch of people commit the act of Treason on our streets by making death threats to our people that we begin to get annoyed , Muslims included, can we really be blamed for that?

I cannot however speak for the rest of Europe but considering how the Muslims have intergrated peacefully throughout Europe I imagine it is more or less the same situation.

The problem is that the discriminatory approach and the hard line right wing fascists are gaining in popularity, and the center is moving to the right in some European countries. The problem here is not with the laws in place (as most laws are just anyway), this is not really a legal matter, but a social and a cultural one. As a general rule, when we don't have sufficient knowledge of others that share our societies, then we are open to be manipulated to hate them. This is what is happening today, groups of fascists provoking Muslims (the extreme ones get violent), in order to gain popularity and political support for themselves using ignorance. Fortunately, not everyone goes for this, but some do and this is true for both sides, and as long as there are people falling in the fascists' traps, they are going to continue to set those traps.

No, you can not be blamed for getting annoyed at people who make death threats, I get annoyed at them as well, they should be arrested and put in jail, that way they won't be annoying us any more, would they, Lottie?

Yes, you are right, there are many many Muslims that have integrated in Europe and in other continents as well, that's what's annoying the fascists everywhere who are trying to disturb the peace.

[zephyr]

Actually Zephyr, Talon is correct. Are we as free peoples supposed to just walk on egg shells around the 'Muslim Community' for fear of 'hurting their precious religious feelings'?

I should be free to say without reprisal that Muhammed is a twisted child molestor and therefore all Muslims are twisted child molestors. Not that I really believe that...but if I say it out loud I might get killed. And you want to talk about Fascism. Get a grip. The Muslim Community is out of touch with reality. The world will not tolerate that behaviour.

You might be free to say a lot of things, but are you going to say anything just because you can, or are you going to use some intelligence before saying it. You are not going to use your freedom of speech to say things that you know will make the people around you hostile to you, are you, joc? Are you going to shout insults and swears at your neighbors first thing every morning, or common sense dictates that you greet them with a smile?

Which behavior do you think should be tolerated by a neighborhood that wants to live in peace. This is not about hurting Muslim feelings or someone else's, this is about behaving in a civil way in a world that has become smaller than a village. This is about using our freedoms in a responsible, constructive and especially, intelligent way. Out of touch with reality are those who do not even recognize the basic characteristics of the societies they live in and prefere to swim in a sea of ignorance made up of dogmas and arrogance about those dogmas.

[Talon]

That is a load of nonsense, Talon, because you are full of stereotypes which is demonstrated by your use of 'you people'. The only way I have reacted to the drawings is what you read in my posts about them here; that those cartoonists and their publishers are narrow-minded fascists that look for nothing but trouble through hatemongering. If you would like to hear more of my reactions, don't hesitate to ask!

I have not stereotyped anyone. You people, meant 'you people' as in the extremists. Of which Zephyr you are one. You might not blow yourself up or riot, but you're views of the western world displayed on this forum show a very warped, brainwashed perception which is probably totally in line with those who do.

The joke is, you sit there is an authoritarian regime ranting about our democracies brainwashing us, completely ignoring that most of you're opinions of the west are nonsense and, assuming we are all victims of propaganda, its clear we certainly aren’t the only ones.

As for the cartoonist, you have no evidence they are fascists. You have one of them saying something about Islam and the west have conflicting Culturists... what does that prove? Nothing. The cartoons were political satire. Zephyr, like it or not, in the west political satire takes the p*** out of almost everything. These same artists, probably the month before these cartoons drew ones about the Danish PM, or Jesus, or Bush, but I didn't see anyone moaning and calling them fascist over it. This issue has been completely blown out of proportion by those Muslims who rioting, protesting and generally getting upset over it. The cartoons were not designed to stir up hate, they were making political satire of Muslim extremists, who DO blow themselves up, and who DO think Muhammad would be proud of them. The cartoons did nothing more than reflect fundamentalist Islam's line of thought.

Which only proves my point, that the fascists on all sides are succeeding to fool the naive into hatred and xenephobia. The number of people in Germany hating the Jews rose sharply as well before the Holocaust. I suppose the main question is: is Europe mature enough to learn from its own recent history or not yet? And if not, how many more Holocausts would it take for it to do so?

No, Zephyr, the question is whether those Muslims who are rioting and protesting over this can be mature and learn to take a joke. Because its their actions which are making people sick and tired of Islam, not the cartoons.

You really do live in another planet Zephyr.

Not unless you consider Iran as being another planet.

... its a figure of speech Zephyr. It means "you line of reasoning is completely different and doesn’t make sense", it does not actually mean Iran is located on Mars, Venus, Vulcun or Bajor.

The Nazis are no more going to come to power again in Europe

Inshallah!

... doesn't Inshallah mean, 'if Allah wills it' ... and you're claiming you are not brainwashed or an extremist when you're coming back with replies like that? Hate to break it to you, we're democracies Zephyr and Allah doesn't have any say in Europe, the future of Nazis in Europe will be decided by Europeans, not some Middle Eastern creation myth.

you're stupid prophesy coming true about Iran being unbeatable because two people still have not been born yet.

Whaaaaat? Which two people? What does beating Iran have to do with this conversation? Addicted to warmongering, are we?

The two people you were going on about in the other thread who will take out Iran, and haven't born yet, and thats you're reason for Iran beating America if it attacks you. You're the one going on about it, you'll have a better idea that anyone else. And I say it not to turn the issue back to Iran's warmongering nuclear program, but rather to point out that you're prediction of another Nazi Europe is at the same level of nonsense.

Then you'll find out what intolerance is.

Is that a threat, Talon? What would you like to do to me this time? You got a new missile or something? What is it designed to specifically hit in my house? Not my Samavar, I hope!

Only you could read that an interpret that as a threat. The same way you got really upset over me wishing you're computer would die on you. You really need to grow a thicker skin.

Since you obviously missed and need me to spell it out for you, I said that any intolerance that Europe develops for Islam will be the result of Muslims, not because of some clandestine plans by the 'intolerant Europeans'. It’s in there hands if we can live in peace or not. Because people are getting tired over here of every week hearing we have to remove another piece of our culture to make someone who choose to come here happy, or hearing thousands of people are in our capitals protesting over something as insignificant as pencil drawing, while extremists demand our deaths and blow us up, and the moderates do nothing about it except for repeating the same message afterwards about 'Islam means peace' rather than doing something constructive like marching in our capitals to demand the arrest of those of their number who conform to beliefs such as Abu Hamza’s and Bin Laden’s.

[artymoon]

I said that any intolerance that Europe develops for Islam will be the result of Muslims, not because of some clandestine plans by the 'intolerant Europeans'. It’s in there hands if we can live in peace or not. Because people are getting tired over here of every week hearing we have to remove another piece of our culture to make someone who choose to come here happy, or hearing thousands of people are in our capitals protesting over something as insignificant as pencil drawing, while extremists demand our deaths and blow us up, and the moderates do nothing about it except for repeating the same message afterwards about 'Islam means peace' rather than doing something constructive like marching in our capitals to demand the arrest of those of their number who conform to beliefs such as Abu Hamza’s and Bin Laden’s.

I agree. Why must the majority bend over and take it. I'm tired of political correctness.

[wunarmdscissor]

to be fair to zephyr his response to my post was very well put.

the main thing i would say to you zephyr is that there isnt just welfare and benefits throughn at muslims in this country , they are subject to positive discriminition. now i know you probably havent had this in Iran so ill explain what iot means.

basically if a muslim and a christian were goin for a job with the same qualifications then as there are more christians in a workdplace a muslim is the one more likely to get the job as the work place myst by law fill certain quotas which mean places of work must employ a certain amount of etnic minorities.

even if that individual is poorly suited to the job.

[wunarmdscissor]

to be fair to zephyr his response to my post was very well put.

the main thing i would say to you zephyr is that there isnt just welfare and benefits throughn at muslims in this country , they are subject to positive discriminition. now i know you probably havent had this in Iran so ill explain what iot means.

basically if a muslim and a christian were goin for a job with the same qualifications then as there are more christians in a workdplace a muslim is the one more likely to get the job as the work place myst by law fill certain quotas which mean places of work must employ a certain amount of etnic minorities.

even if that individual is poorly suited to the job.

[+joc]

Out of touch with reality are those who do not even recognize the basic characteristics of the societies they live in and prefere to swim in a sea of ignorance made up of dogmas and arrogance about those dogmas.

Thank you for taking that introspective look in the mirror. Even though I know you don't see yourself in the reflection.

I don't scream out insults to my neighbors...I like my neighbors, and I presume they like me.

But Zephyr, some of my neighbors are Liberal Democrats....and some of them like to wear their political agenda on their bumper stickers and signs in their yards. So, what. Do I pull up their signs and whack them in the head...no. And guess what else...not all of my neighbors are Christians....and that's fine too.

Where you don't seem to get it is that I am not the press. The Press could care less, and should care less what you do or do not like about what they say....it's called freedom of speech...a foreign idea to you perhaps...but over here in the West...it is THE wheel that all other Freedom turns on. We can and will say whatever we bloody well please and to hell with the rest of the world if they don't like what we say. The Muslims getting upset over these cartoons are Fundamentalist Extremists who have allowed their Religion to overcome their entire thought process. We will not tolerate their inexcusable behaviour toward our freedom of speech.

Edited February 22, 2006 by joc

[Erikl]

Zephyr stop with this rubbish.

I'll let you all Europeans on a little secret we, the Middle-Eastern westerners, know for decades.

Being that both myself and Zephyr come from the Middle East, and my country - even though a western and European-standard country - is located in the Middle East and has a very large muslim minority (about 20% of the population), I can give you another insight on how islam works in it's relations to other religions, and why, Zephyr, muslims who are born in Europe are not Europeans in the sense Gypsies and European Jews are.

Muslims believe their religion to not be the only rightful religion to exist - it believes other religions have the right to exist as well. However, it sees itself as superb to all other religions, and in such all other adherents should pay tributes to muslims if they wish to keep their heads on.

This is called Dhimmitude.

Muslims also believe that whenever a land has muslims majority, it is becoming a muslim land forever (hence why in the eyes of fundamentalists, Spain, Israel and half of Europe are occupied islamic lands).

Middle Eastern muslims have no ability to comprehend that they are in the state they are today because of their stupid leadership - they believe the dhimmis, ie Jews and Christians, are to be blamed.

Zephyr you want to talk about fascism?

The entire middle east is infected with it.

Racism towards non-Muslims, toward non-Arabs, toward women. Violence is part of every day culture - and if you show weakness you are stepped on and used.

A culture where black africans are seen as lower to paler africans (Sudan).

It's funny to see an Iranian talking about the holocaust, when Iran is currently one of the few countries to be vocal about denying the holocaust and it's leaders has been actively denying it for years (the world had a glimpse of this for the last few months).

You want to talk about Western Islam? Let's look at Turkey, at Albania, at Azerbeijan, where Baku (a muslim himself I suppose) has no idea what the sharia law is.

These countries have a form of European, or western Islam.

Unfortunately most of the muslims in Western Europe do not come from these countries (except for Germany, where indeed the muslims are least vocal against German culture and probably the most integrated) for the simple fact that they know a bit of European culture in their own countries and do not feel the urge to escape to other countries.

Most of the muslims of western Europe come from the dark, racist middle east, and bring that same racist mentality with them to their knew homes.

They can't understand why people won't simply embrace their culture, and why lands which they choose to settle on do not automatically accepted as islamic lands by the local Europeans.

No, European Jewry evolved quite differently - European Jews had European culture, although Jewish. Even the religious ones had European culture.

Even Jews who were kicked out of Europe some 500 years and settled in the Middle East preserved their European identity in language if anything else.

Gypsies also accepted European culture, although nomadic one.

All these groups are part of the huge ethnic diversity of Europe. They are different, but still European.

On the other hand, the muslims of western europe are middle-easterns, who choose to continue to live in small islands of the middle east inside their new countries.

They are not Europeans: they are colonialists, who create middle-eastern colonies within countries they chose to immigrate into.

[Erikl]

And as for the number of muslims in the UK debated here in the beginning of the thread:

There are currently about 1.6 million muslims in the UK, most of them reside in England.

They make up 2.4% of the British population.

Islam is the second largest religion in Scotland, where muslims number 40,000 people.

[zephyr]

I have not stereotyped anyone. You people, meant 'you people' as in the extremists. Of which Zephyr you are one. You might not blow yourself up or riot, but you're views of the western world displayed on this forum show a very warped, brainwashed perception which is probably totally in line with those who do.

And the nonsense continues. You are the one calling for wars, eliminating Muslim Europeans and ejecting them from their homes, and you call me an extremist? The fact that european fascism is alive and well, and that racism has been and is a widespread disease in Europe, makes what you say in your posts the result of you having been totally brainwashed.

The joke is, you sit there is an authoritarian regime ranting about our democracies brainwashing us, completely ignoring that most of you're opinions of the west are nonsense and, assuming we are all victims of propaganda, its clear we certainly aren’t the only ones.

I didn't say you were the only brainwashed one, but you certainly are one good example of a brainwashed person with extremist and dangerous views. You haven't even come up with one counter-argument to my arguments, all you have done is rant about how I, as someone living in Iran am brainwashed, etc. Of course, it is understandable, when you have no points to make, just go at the person, where he lives, what his religion is etc. You are out of valid arguments because there are none that one could present in favor of fascism.

As for the cartoonist, you have no evidence they are fascists. You have one of them saying something about Islam and the west have conflicting Culturists... what does that prove? Nothing. The cartoons were political satire. Zephyr, like it or not, in the west political satire takes the p*** out of almost everything. These same artists, probably the month before these cartoons drew ones about the Danish PM, or Jesus, or Bush, but I didn't see anyone moaning and calling them fascist over it. This issue has been completely blown out of proportion by those Muslims who rioting, protesting and generally getting upset over it. The cartoons were not designed to stir up hate, they were making political satire of Muslim extremists, who DO blow themselves up, and who DO think Muhammad would be proud of them. The cartoons did nothing more than reflect fundamentalist Islam's line of thought.

They are fascists because they are doing their fascist friends all over the world a favor. Speaking of Jesus cartoons, that same primitive Danish paper refused to publish some Jesus cartoons just prior to publishing the Mohammad ones, and this according to the paper's editor. Making fun of the prophet of 1.5 billion people through silly and stupid cartoons is NOT political satire, but pure hatemongering and of the most disgusting type at that. It is not only the extremists who protested at the cartoons, the extremists went to extremes in their protests. In fact one thing the cartoons have done in the Muslim world, is to approach the more moderate forces to the extreme ones, just like they have done in the West, which was the cynical purpose behind publishing those stupid cartoons to begin with; make fascists more popular all the world.

No, Zephyr, the question is whether those Muslims who are rioting and protesting over this can be mature and learn to take a joke. Because its their actions which are making people sick and tired of Islam, not the cartoons.

That's where you display your ignorance of Islam quite well. The cartoons were not a joke, a cynical provocations with a fascist agenda, and if you choose to fall for that, that's your problem. it just demonstrates your narrow minded approach to the whole thing.

means "you line of reasoning is completely different and doesn’t make sense"

Just because a line of reasoning is different from your dogmatic line of reasoning, doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. It just means open-minds are required to understand it, something that you obviously lack.

doesn't Inshallah mean, 'if Allah wills it' ... and you're claiming you are not brainwashed or an extremist when you're coming back with replies like that? Hate to break it to you, we're democracies Zephyr and Allah doesn't have any say in Europe, the future of Nazis in Europe will be decided by Europeans, not some Middle Eastern creation myth

That's just your stereotyped opinion based on your ignorance of Islam and what I believe in. The Nazis are already in Europe, and judging by some posts here, they are really not very far away.

The same way you got really upset over me wishing you're computer would die on you.

Those remarks were so stupid that it's hard to get upset over them. At first, you said you wished to bomb me, and when you realized that you were making a fool of yourself, you then changed your scenario to an even sillier one of bombing my computer! I suggest you stop bringing this up, because every time you do, you make a bigger fool of yourself.

It’s in there hands if we can live in peace or not.

It's in the hands of both sides, fascists have to be kept in check everywhere. Scapegoating does not help any at all.

to remove another piece of our culture to make someone who choose to come here happy

You're not doing your culture any favor by insisting that insulting others in form of silly drawings are part of it. And speaking of myth, the fact that you believe that Muslims are asking you to give up your culture in favor of theirs is a real big myth created for you by the brainwashing propaganda that you are exposed to all day and everyday.

[thebarman]

That's where you display your ignorance of Islam quite well. The cartoons were not a joke, a cynical provocations with a fascist agenda, and if you choose to fall for that, that's your problem. it just demonstrates your narrow minded approach to the whole thing.

Have to disagree with that, the cartoons were a joke aimed at the Islamic far right. At the point the other newspapers printed them they ceased to be a joke and became a defiant message by a united press that their freedom of speech, and yes, their freedom to offend if they so wish could not be silenced, which in turn was provoked by an offended muslim community.

The fact they did not see the joke, and your inability to see it that way only goes to prove Talon's point.

My point however, is that had no one rioted in the first place the cartoons would never have been reprinted and would have remained in the wastepaper baskets of Denmark to disappear for all eternity. Oh, and about 50 people would still be alive.

[zephyr]

to be fair to zephyr his response to my post was very well put.

Thank you for being fair, your responses are much more reasonable and make a lot more sense that some others here, wun.

Where you don't seem to get it is that I am not the press. The Press could care less, and should care less what you do or do not like about what they say....it's called freedom of speech...

And what you don't seem to get is that the press has even more responsibility in the exercise of the freedoms that they have. That is exactly the problem, some dogmatic and hateful anarchists running certain papers that fail to see further than their own noses and causing trouble for everyone, including themselves through the junk they print. What you further fail to see is the fact that Islam is an integral part of the West, and those with narrow minds just have to learn to live with that fact. The cries such as "this is the West', etc, have no more real and applicable value. Most problems would be solved once people are ready to put their dogmas away and face the realities and try to find solutions to those realities that might be bothering them, and that includes the Muslims as well.

Zephyr stop with this rubbish.

You should stop with your rubbish such as the following remarks:

Zephyr, muslims who are born in Europe are not Europeans

It's funny to see an Iranian talking about the holocaust

On the other hand, the muslims of western europe are middle-easterns,

Talking about fascism, I agree that the ME is infected by it, one of the places most infected being Israel, a state built on religious basis and run through militarism, invading its neighbors, building walls in the 21st century, systematically discriminating against even its own citizens, and trying to wipe off the face of the earth a whole people, without much success, I must add.

For someone whose people and probabely relatives have been the victims of European racism and fascism, it's surprising (or is it? ), and sad to see you cheerleading the same fascists when it comes to Muslims.

[zephyr]

The fact they did not see the joke, and your inability to see it that way only goes to prove Talon's point.

And your inability to see that making tasteless jokes that you know are going to insult others and hve the potential of causing trouble and still insisting on that behaviour as being the correct one because YOU think they are right, goes to prove my point about the dogmatic and the narrow minded approach of certain people in the West. This is like me making an insulting and tasteless joke about you or what you hold as values, and then when you reply to that tasteless joke, I rant about how you are not able to take a joke, while it's my ignorance that is at fault to begin with and not your sensitivies. I think you need to take off those Western glasses of yours to see the realities that surround you and the world you live in.

[Sanjuro]

These cartoons are a big propoganda by Illuminati, the main target is muslims, plan is to make all world hate them so US can invade Iran and so on so on before they reach their main goal.

Beware of ad-Dajjal.

[thebarman]

This is like me making an insulting and tasteless joke about you or what you hold as values, and then when you reply to that tasteless joke, I rant about how you are not able to take a joke

Your missing the point here, which is that people DO insult some of the things I hold dear, and people always will. However, when someone does offend me, I rise above it, I do not threaten them with Islamic Jihad, run throught the streets burning flags and generally causing a nuisance.

These arn't the first cartoons to cause offence, in fact, I cannot recall an occasion when a cartoon printed in any newspaper wasn't designed to offend someone. That's the whole point, they are there to offend, to illustrate - quite literally, a point.

The narrowmindedness is with those who think that by preaching violence and religious war these people are going to apologise for printing them, because quite simply they are not, and nor should they.

I understand an Iranian newspaper has launched a competition to come up with cartoons about the holocaust, I have still yet to hear about any Jewish riots? Ever wonder why?

These cartoons are a big propoganda by Illuminati, the main target is muslims, plan is to make all world hate them so US can invade Iran and so on so on before they reach their main goal.

I think you're confused, unfounded illogical conspiracy theories are next door

Edited February 23, 2006 by thebarman

[RedEyeJedi]

These arn't the first cartoons to cause offence, in fact, I cannot recall an occasion when a cartoon printed in any newspaper wasn't designed to offend someone. That's the whole point, they are there to offend, to illustrate - quite literally, a point.

And what point would a bomb in the Prophet Mohammed's Turban be making?

Don't be silly people. Of course the cartoons were meant as provocation, not a joke. You find something that hits a nerve - you keep on pushing it to antagonise (hence, the reprinting etc). Sure enough, you are gonna have a number of people with relatively low IQ's deciding violence is an appropriate response.

I have mentioned before that the original editor who published the cartoons, is a supporter of a 'clash of civilizations'. Short-sighted Westerners are made to think its an issue of Islamic impositions vs free speech. This is obviously not the case, and freedom of speech is not being championed, as demonstrated by the fact that David Irving has been jailed for 3 years for his opinions, which he stated way back in 1989!!! Not to mention the fact that this old man said he had changed his mind and he was wrong. So, no! :angry2: This is not about free speech.

Going back to what this topic was originally about, it is obvious that not many of you have even looked at the original poll. Why else would a poll of this nature be conducted, unless to stoke the flames some more? We have all seen the pictures of rioters. You do a poll, to cement those images in the brains of those who know no better. Sort of like whispering in your ear: 'All those British Muslims are like that, you know'.

If you read the original questions and answers, it is hard to see how the Telegraph article and the headline were not meant to manipulate non-Muslims into fearing them some more. The one question that stands out as uncharacteristic of the views expressed throughout the rest of the poll, is the Sharia law question (Due to it's structure and phrasing). The question itself is loaded and misleading and does not ask whether the respondent wants Sharia Law. To anyone that has studied psychology, it is obviously not the basis of a sound, impartial question. The 40% figure was seized upon, and made the headlines. Headlines get the attention, they get people talking (^^ obviously), and the real heart of the truth is forgotten or ignored.

Not to mention the unreliability of small random telephone samples, especially if you ask some of them for the telephone numbers of their mates!! You generally are gonna have a small range of personality types (unemployed or those who are uncomfortable with telling strangers on the phone to 'p*ss off').

The real results paint a totally different picture of the opinions of British Muslims than the one we are meant to take on board.

Have you guys also forgotten that we have had 2 manipulated wars against Middle-Eastern countries. Another 2 on the way, by the looks of it, and a daily dose of demonising throughout our society.

I think you're confused, unfounded illogical conspiracy theories are next door

Out of interest - what do you base your use of the word 'illogical' on?

[Erikl]

Talking about fascism, I agree that the ME is infected by it, one of the places most infected being Israel,

LOL are you sure you even know what fascism is? cause being that Israel is the only democracy in the Middle-East, you seem to be confused.

a state built on religious basis

The only state in the entire middle east where gays and religious minorites can express their ideas and feelings publicly, even against the state, and feel safe (and I'm pretty certain homosexuality is not tolerated by religious Jews).

and run through militarism, invading its neighbors, building walls in the 21st century,

Invading our neighbours when they attack us is called self-defense .

systematically discriminating against even its own citizens,

The only place in the Middle East where muslims can freely vote and freely express their ideas even when they are against the government.

and trying to wipe off the face of the earth a whole people, without much success, I must add.

Your co-religions have proved that you can genocide people with horses and guns. If we really tried to wipe out anyone, we would have been far more successful. In the meantime, it is the Arab and Muslim states who have been trying to wipe us out for the last 57 years, failing misserably.

This is simply good old blood libel. Again, not surprising coming out of a loyal Iranian .

For someone whose people and probabely relatives have been the victims of European racism and fascism, it's surprising (or is it? unsure.gif ), and sad to see you cheerleading the same fascists when it comes to Muslims.

Oh boo hoo .

Stop equating the West's self-defense to the Holocaust. It's almost like denying it.

[thebarman]

And what point would a bomb in the Prophet Mohammed's Turban be making?

The point that the cartoonist feels Islam is a violent religion and has decided to portray that through his work.

Don't be silly people. Of course the cartoons were meant as provocation, not a joke.

Why can't they be both? It's a joke that provocates.

For me that's not the issue, you keep rambling on about how its a conspiracy and the NWO want to start a war but your forgetting that in a free country you are allowed to insult, and to provocate. It comes under the whole "free speech" banner. Yes I'm sure the editor of Jyllands-Posten knew he would cause offence, but the point is he is allowed to.

Out of interest - what do you base your use of the word 'illogical' on?

Something that is not logical

[RedEyeJedi]

For me that's not the issue, you keep rambling on about how its a conspiracy and the NWO want to start a war but your forgetting that in a free country you are allowed to insult, and to provocate. It comes under the whole "free speech" banner. Yes I'm sure the editor of Jyllands-Posten knew he would cause offence, but the point is he is allowed to.

I mentioned the NWO once or twice when I first started posting on this site, (which, by the way, is not a group of people), and have not mentioned it for 5 or 6 weeks, but you still bring it up.

You also seem to ignore glaring inconsistencies in your whole argument. Which I will point out again. This is not about free speech! If it is, why is David Irving in jail for having expressed an opinion 17 years ago? The word 'hypocrisy' comes to mind.

Something that is not logical

Clever! I'll rephrase it - what is illogical about Sanjuro's reference to the Illuminati plot?

[thebarman]

I mentioned the NWO once or twice when I first started posting on this site, (which, by the way, is not a group of people).

I'm tempted to ask what it is then if it's not a group of people, but spare me the anguish of having to read your no doubt extensive reply and I'll just take your word for it.

You also seem to ignore glaring inconsistencies in your whole argument. Which I will point out again. This is not about free speech! If it is, why is David Irving in jail for having expressed an opinion 17 years ago? The word 'hypocrisy' comes to mind.

Irving was arrested in Austria where holocaust denial is a crime. The cartoons were published originally in Denmark. If both had happend in the same country yes it would be hypocritical, but they didn't.

Clever! I'll rephrase it - what is illogical about Sanjuro's reference to the Illuminati plot?

In my opinion the belief in the illuminati is illogical, if you want to discuss it that's fine, there's a whole section avaliable but this is not it. That was my point, nothing else.

[Talon]

I have not stereotyped anyone. You people, meant 'you people' as in the extremists. Of which Zephyr you are one. You might not blow yourself up or riot, but you're views of the western world displayed on this forum show a very warped, brainwashed perception which is probably totally in line with those who do.

And the nonsense continues. You are the one calling for wars, eliminating Muslim Europeans and ejecting them from their homes, and you call me an extremist?

Where Zephyr, where do I say 'kick all UK Muslims out there homes'? I remember one reference a month ago about kicking extremists out of there homes. I can only assume you are saying therefore all Muslims are extremists? Personally I don't agree with you on that, I don't think all Muslims are, but if that’s what you believe then... *shrugs*

And you say I'm calling for war? You miss out you're leader wants a nuke, and there are tons of Islamic clerics demanding a war. So may I remind you that there are plenty of Muslims who wanted war before me.

The fact that european fascism is alive and well, and that racism has been and is a widespread disease in Europe, makes what you say in your posts the result of you having been totally brainwashed.

Dude, some of your posts in this forum about Europe are so untrue and demonising I have to wonder if whoever told you them mistook us for Mordor from Lord of the Rings. Serious half of what you think about Europe is rubbish. You keep saying we know nothing about Iran, but have you ever considered you know nothing about Europe?

I didn't say you were the only brainwashed one, but you certainly are one good example of a brainwashed person with extremist and dangerous views.

Dude, if you want to look at dangerous, take a look at those fundamentalist Muslims who blow themselves and the clerics who urge holy war. I find it hard with people like that around you can claim I'd the dangerous one.

You haven't even come up with one counter-argument to my arguments, all you have done is rant about how I, as someone living in Iran am brainwashed, etc. Of course, it is understandable, when you have no points to make, just go at the person, where he lives, what his religion is etc. You are out of valid arguments because there are none that one could present in favor of fascism.

I've reply to most of what you post. However, just because I've given up quoting you're most anti-western views and trying to convince you they are untrue, does not you're right and I can't think of counter argument, rather because I know you’ll still hold that ridiculous attitude no mater how much of my time I spend proving its just propaganda.

Edited February 23, 2006 by Talon

[Talon]

Speaking of Jesus cartoons, that same primitive Danish paper refused to publish some Jesus cartoons just prior to publishing the Mohammad ones, and this according to the paper's editor.

Untrue. They refused to print them 3 YEARS AGO. Zephyr, a lot happens in three years. The circumstances gain, the environment changes, people change, issues change. You can't expect issues that stopped a picture being printed 3 years ago to be still prevalent today.

Making fun of the prophet of 1.5 billion people through silly and stupid cartoons is NOT political satire, but pure hatemongering and of the most disgusting type at that.

Considering Iran is printing holocaust cartoons you're being completely hypocritical here.

In fact one thing the cartoons have done in the Muslim world, is to approach the more moderate forces to the extreme ones, just like they have done in the West, which was the cynical purpose behind publishing those stupid cartoons to begin with; make fascists more popular all the world.

That's where you display your ignorance of Islam quite well. The cartoons were not a joke, a cynical provocations with a fascist agenda, and if you choose to fall for that, that's your problem. it just demonstrates your narrow minded approach to the whole thing.

Rubbish, the guy who picked up a pencil and did the doodle could not have predicted Muslims would react like this. He most likely assumed it would come and go in the same light as the satire about Catholic priests being paedophiles, Marxists, politicians etc of which, none of them rioted and burned down buildings.

Just because a line of reasoning is different from your dogmatic line of reasoning, doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. It just means open-minds are required to understand it, something that you obviously lack.

Actually its lack of logic behind you're anti-western attitudes that makes them nonsense, not because I don't agree with it.

doesn't Inshallah mean, 'if Allah wills it' ... and you're claiming you are not brainwashed or an extremist when you're coming back with replies like that? Hate to break it to you, we're democracies Zephyr and Allah doesn't have any say in Europe, the future of Nazis in Europe will be decided by Europeans, not some Middle Eastern creation myth

That's just your stereotyped opinion based on your ignorance of Islam and what I believe in. The Nazis are already in Europe, and judging by some posts here, they are really not very far away.

... no its because you said Allah will decide if Nazis become to Europe that I think you've got religious biases at play here, not because I've been victimised by propaganda, which I'd like to remind you does nothing now but talk about how nice Muslims are and 'Islam means peace'. Zephyr, if the mainstream western media really is trying to brainwash us, its certainly not to hate Islam.

The same way you got really upset over me wishing you're computer would die on you.

Those remarks were so stupid that it's hard to get upset over them. At first, you said you wished to bomb me, and when you realized that you were making a fool of yourself, you then changed your scenario to an even sillier one of bombing my computer! I suggest you stop bringing this up, because every time you do, you make a bigger fool of yourself.

No Zephyr, I said since you were making such a big deal about Iran being invincible that I hoped a stray missile hit you're computer and save from you're comments. I never said anything about you, and its all written in a past thread if anyone wants to see it. So stop exaggerating and get over it, because you're constant bringing them up shows you did get upset by them.

to remove another piece of our culture to make someone who choose to come here happy

You're not doing your culture any favor by insisting that insulting others in form of silly drawings are part of it. And speaking of myth, the fact that you believe that Muslims are asking you to give up your culture in favor of theirs is a real big myth created for you by the brainwashing propaganda that you are exposed to all day and everyday.

... dude, every Christmas for the last three years a group of Muslims stand outside my local Asda with signs saying Xmas trees should not be sold. Every year we have people saying Christmas should be now called 'Crimbo' or 'winterville', every year you here about more schools banning Santa etc. So do not come here and claim its all western propaganda.

The fact they did not see the joke, and your inability to see it that way only goes to prove Talon's point.

And your inability to see that making tasteless jokes that you know are going to insult others

Zephyr, have you ever considered the fact that so many western people disagree with you, shows that western culture doesn't think these cartoons are a big deal, and equally thus there was no secret nWo-style conspiracy involved in their making.

And what point would a bomb in the Prophet Mohammed's Turban be making?

The points is about extremist Muslims who do blow up, a very real issue.