Poll reveals 40pc of Muslims want sharia law

[RedEyeJedi]

I'm tempted to ask what it is then if it's not a group of people, but spare me the anguish of having to read your no doubt extensive reply and I'll just take your word for it.

Irving was arrested in Austria where holocaust denial is a crime. The cartoons were published originally in Denmark. If both had happend in the same country yes it would be hypocritical, but they didn't.

In my opinion the belief in the illuminati is illogical, if you want to discuss it that's fine, there's a whole section avaliable but this is not it. That was my point, nothing else.

Just quickly it is a state of imposed/enforced order.

This is a Europe-wide (worldwide) issue. Countries with Holocaust denial laws did publish the cartoons. And why not even the slightest indication by the British government to appeal the incarceration of one of their citizens?

OK, so the Illuminati plot is illogical based on your belief and nothing else?

Anyway, getting sidetracked. What about the issue of the poll and the reporting of the results being a blatantly biased smear campaign?

Edited February 23, 2006 by RedEyeJedi

[thebarman]

Anyway, getting sidetracked. What about the issue of the poll and the reporting of the results being a blatantly biased smear campaign?

Actually I'd agree that particular question is skewed, but that wasn't what caught my eye, this one was:

7% is WAY too high a figure, even if that's only 7% of the 500 people they telephoned that's still 35 potential terrorists, and that question is VERY clear.

[Uversa]

Agreed.

Every week in the news nowadays seems to be Muslims (both moderates and extremists) moaning about our way of life and how they can't fit into our society unless we change it to replicate what they choose to leave behind in the ME. And then people wonder my Islamaphobia is on the rise? Islamaphobia isn't a form of racism or bigotry, its simply being sick and tired of being told how to live in you're own country by people who CHOOSE to move here.

Excellently Said.

It amazes me how terribly these people act, they are in OUR country, and are nearly all claiming benefits of some form... ungrateful close minded fools

[zephyr]

Have to disagree with that, the cartoons were a joke aimed at the Islamic far right.

Well; in that case they were aimed at the wrong people, and this for two reasons:

1- When you portray Mohammad as a terrorist, you are going to offend all Muslims, whether and how each and everyone of those Muslims decides to react to that is of course different, some did not react at all, and as RedEye says, some, with low IQs are going to react violently, but this doesn't change the fact that those types of idiotic cartoons are going to offend your moderate and friendly Muslim citizen in your own country. Now, the cartoonists either knew that and still did it, which makes it a provocation and incitement to hate, or they didn't know, which makes them ignorant idiots who have nothing to do running papers.

2- The Islamic far-right or fascists breed on this kind of provocations and it is the sort of operating conditions they are most familiar with. So, if the cartoons were aimed at weakening those people in anyway, they certainly achieved the opposite. Besides, you want to make fun of people (in far Islamic right), like the head terrorists Bin Ladan or Zarghawi, why portray the prophet of Islam and offend all Muslims? that's certainly counter-productive in the fight against terror.

I think your assumption that the cartoons were just silly jokes does not quite match the realities and how the events turned out. Any way, the publishers themselves said it was a provocation to test the tolerance of Muslims in Denmark, which makes your hypothesis a false one.

their freedom to offend

I don't think such freedom exists. As far as I know, in all Western constitutions, it is specifically stated that you don't have the right to offend others, it's against the law.

The fact they did not see the joke, and your inability to see it that way only goes to prove Talon's point.

Which clearly shows your inability, as well as that of Talon's to see the whole picture and insist that it was merely a silly joke. That is of course due to a narrow vision of the world which itself is due to being a prisoner of some illusions in form of dogmas.

My point however, is that had no one rioted in the first place the cartoons would never have been reprinted and would have remained in the wastepaper baskets of Denmark to disappear for all eternity. Oh, and about 50 people would still be alive.

My point too, rioting is not the answer to stupidity, and the cartoonists and the violent rioters' brains are made of the same hard stuff.

Your missing the point here, which is that people DO insult some of the things I hold dear, and people always will. However, when someone does offend me, I rise above it, I do not threaten them with Islamic Jihad, run throught the streets burning flags and generally causing a nuisance.

So? Those that riot and those that knowingly provoke those riots are both trouble makers, only somehow you fail to see the point in its entirety, and choose to see only a small and biased version of the reality. The paper that provoked the riots is as thick headed as the ones who riot over what idiots publish.

These arn't the first cartoons to cause offence, in fact, I cannot recall an occasion when a cartoon printed in any newspaper wasn't designed to offend someone. That's the whole point, they are there to offend, to illustrate - quite literally, a point.

The narrowmindedness is with those who think that by preaching violence and religious war these people are going to apologise for printing them, because quite simply they are not, and nor should they.

I understand an Iranian newspaper has launched a competition to come up with cartoons about the holocaust, I have still yet to hear about any Jewish riots? Ever wonder why?

You're right, offending the prophet of Islam in any case is nothing new, it was even going on at his own time and he was insulted more than once and no one ever heard of him answering back to those insults, he just left the ignorant insulting idiots alone so they could swim some more in their dark ignorance. . The insulting has also been going on throughout the ages. However, what makes this particular case different, is that it is in fact insulting a large portion of humanity's beliefs and not just insulting one person who happens to be the prophet. The more violent and radical ones in that portion can of course be manipulated by many people for many different reasons, notably political ones, and make a big mess for everyone as we are witnessing here. It is only common sense and casual application of intelligece that the media refrain from causing situations like that, nobody is questioning any freedoms here, just asking for the use of some open-mind instead of dogmatic reasoning, not much to ask, is it?

I understand an Iranian newspaper has launched a competition to come up with cartoons about the holocaust, I have still yet to hear about any Jewish riots? Ever wonder why?

I don't know what you are trying to prove there as obviously Jews weren't going to riot over silly cartoons, and their numbers are not even close to the number of Muslims, but I think the number of Muslims who didn't riot over those silly cartoons far outnumbers the number of all the Jews in the world. One of the things propaganda does to you is it makes you generalize about billions of people from different cultures, based on the actions of a small percentage of people that claim to have the same religion as the others, silly, no?BTW, the leaders of the Jewish community in Iran did protest in a letter to the president, quite rightly so as the cartoons in the Iranian paper were also in very bad taste and completely pointless.

[RedEyeJedi]

Actually I'd agree that particular question is skewed, but that wasn't what caught my eye, this one was:

7% is WAY too high a figure, even if that's only 7% of the 500 people they telephoned that's still 35 potential terrorists, and that question is VERY clear.

This again shows the bias of the poll. The question says do you agree with western morals etc, or do you disagree and think things should change. The only option to disagree with it, has a clause that includes violence. Not much of a choice is it?

I am British born and raised. Never lived anywhere else. I am not a Muslim, but I think Western society is too immoral, decadent and things need to change. We abuse others, namely the worlds poor, for our own comforts and personal gain and I think things should be different. I believe the planet belongs to everyone and consumerist, capitalist endeveours only lead to the imbalance of abundance and autonomy in the world.

I am opposed to violence of any kind, but I would only be able to choose option 1 on that poll. So 35 potential terrorists is an exaggeration.

Edited February 23, 2006 by RedEyeJedi

[Talon]

7% is WAY too high a figure, even if that's only 7% of the 500 people they telephoned that's still 35 potential terrorists, and that question is VERY clear.

Not just the 7%, we have another 12% who didn't know/refused to answer. The fact they didn't know if they agreed with violence or not rather than straight out saying that violence is not acceptable is terrifying.

That 7% should be wiped out, deported if they can be, 'disappear' if they can't.

[RedEyeJedi]

Not just the 7%, we have another 12% who didn't know/refused to answer. The fact they didn't know if they agreed with violence or not rather than straight out saying that violence is not acceptable is terrifying.

That 7% should be wiped out, deported if they can be, 'disappear' if they can't.

You left your brain somewhere else? There is no option to say violence is not acceptable but I disagree with Western society. The more you speak, the less I think of you.

[RedEyeJedi]

Sorry. Maybe that was a bit harsh. Was late at night and I'd had a bit to drink.

[thebarman]

Now, the cartoonists either knew that and still did it, which makes it a provocation and incitement to hate, or they didn't know, which makes them ignorant idiots who have nothing to do running papers.

That's not an incitement to hate, the cartoons do not "incite hatred" nor encourage it. They ridicule yes, but that is different. Also, idiots or not, you have no business telling them who can or cannot run a paper, it all comes under this issue of freedom.

I don't think such freedom exists. As far as I know, in all Western constitutions, it is specifically stated that you don't have the right to offend others, it's against the law.

Well, simply not true. I can write "Tony Blair is a pompous brown-nosing twit" and not have any comeback. I could shout that in the middle of Trafalgar Square and still be safe in the knowledge that I wouldn't be thrown in jail. Some revision required on western constitutions perhaps?

My point too, rioting is not the answer to stupidity, and the cartoonists and the violent rioters' brains are made of the same hard stuff.

You know, I think we've gone way off plot here, we seem to agree on this point it's just the cartoonists, stupid/facist as they may be, have broken no law. Whereas the rioters have.

Both are wrong, both hate each other, and we're all caught up in the ugly middle. I'm just saying there's a difference between taking the p*ss, and threatening to cut someones head off.

Now, back on topic...

The question says do you agree with western morals etc, or do you disagree and think things should change. The only option to disagree with it, has a clause that includes violence. Not much of a choice is it?

No, the question is bias in that it doesn't actually give an option to say that western society is absolutely fine. Both answers are negative and this opinion:

I am British born and raised. Never lived anywhere else. I am not a Muslim, but I think Western society is too immoral, decadent and things need to change. We abuse others, namely the worlds poor, for our own comforts and personal gain and I think things should be different. I believe the planet belongs to everyone and consumerist, capitalist endeveours only lead to the imbalance of abundance and autonomy in the world.

I'd say fits closest with option 2. Alternatively you could just say you refuse to answer because you can't choose an option. You do not pick one that says Muslims should bring western society to an end by violent means, and if you do then perhaps its best if you don't take part in surveys

[RedEyeJedi]

Now, back on topic...

No, the question is bias in that it doesn't actually give an option to say that western society is absolutely fine. Both answers are negative and this opinion:

I'd say fits closest with option 2. Alternatively you could just say you refuse to answer because you can't choose an option. You do not pick one that says Muslims should bring western society to an end by violent means, and if you do then perhaps its best if you don't take part in surveys

Well, I wouldn't have thought there were many people that would think Britain is perfect. Nowhere can be perfect, but that's beside the point. Again, as far as I am concerned, this still illustrates my point. The structure of the question means that 100% of those polled are either not happy with Western society or refuse to answer/(don't know)!

As I am not a Muslim, the question doesn't apply to me, but if it were worded differently I would say that I think the way we live needs to change. The words 'if necessary', do not mean violence is the only option. I think free-thinking people everywhere need to bring an end to our decadence. In my case I feel this should be done through spiritual awareness.

[thebarman]

I never said 'perfect', I said 'fine'.

Everybody would like something to change about the way we live, but you can't please everybody. It's about compromise, and meeting somewhere in the middle. I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with Muslims who want to live peacefully, work within the community as part of the community and generally get along. Nor anyone else for that matter.

What I do have problems with, are those that say I have to change my beliefs to accomodate them. You yourself speak of changing the way we live, bringing an end to decadance. Well, some people might not see it that way, some people might be happy with the way things are, and who are you to tell them otherwise?

"I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it."

- thought that little quote was relavent here

[RedEyeJedi]

"I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it."

- thought that little quote was relavent here

It is, but is actually more relevant for you. That is actually quite funny.

By the way - the question says 'perfect'.

Neither the poll nor I suggested changing others beliefs to accomodate 'ours'. I know people think things are fine the way they are - that is obviously, the problem. Peace and equality, through spiritual growth and education. (Not religion).

[thebarman]

Neither the poll nor I suggested changing others beliefs to accomodate 'ours'. I know people think things are fine the way they are - that is obviously, the problem.

I find that little statement contradicting. First you say your not suggesting you want to change others beliefs, then the next sentence you 'suggest' the way people think is a problem.

It is, but is actually more relevant for you.

That's exactly my point, metaphorically speaking your standing there trying to usher people throught the door, to a world of spiritual enlightenment, and not all of us want to follow. Face it, some of us are just happier with the blue pill.

Edited February 24, 2006 by thebarman

[RedEyeJedi]

Oh right OK. I get you. I am well aware many people are happier with the blue pill. It's a personal choice. I mean, people should not be forced to change their beliefs, but as more and people become aware of The Truth it will reach critical mass. People will make the change themselves.

Not trying to sound harsh, but those that make that descision to stick with the blue pill, will live their lives and die as a slave to 'the system'. That again, is their choice. If people are happy with that then that's fine.

Once you step over that fear barrier, and decide the truth is more important than your personal comfort, your eyes will be opened. The truth is out there.

[thebarman]

Wow, it's like speaking to Morpheus, David Icke and Fox Mulder all in one!

I think we've discussed this to death, we're both convinced that the other one is brainwashed and I doubt either one of us will cave in. So, untill the earth gets taken over by reptillians I think I'll just stay right here in my comfort zone.

"If you'd told us the truth, we would've told you to shove that red pill right up your *ss"

[RedEyeJedi]

Wow, it's like speaking to Morpheus, David Icke and Fox Mulder all in one!

I think we've discussed this to death, we're both convinced that the other one is brainwashed and I doubt either one of us will cave in. So, untill the earth gets taken over by reptillians I think I'll just stay right here in my comfort zone.

"If you'd told us the truth, we would've told you to shove that red pill right up your *ss"

Lol. OK - let's call it a day. Told what truth, though?

Edited February 24, 2006 by RedEyeJedi

[through the fire]

im not muslim (infact i hate every religion equally) but i would support the sharia

i know a lot of pakistani people over here who view the brits as complete scum,the lowest of the low

and i cant be offended by that because lets face it we are

we live in a disgusting society so maybe something like sharia law could help us

[Talon]

Not just the 7%, we have another 12% who didn't know/refused to answer. The fact they didn't know if they agreed with violence or not rather than straight out saying that violence is not acceptable is terrifying.

That 7% should be wiped out, deported if they can be, 'disappear' if they can't.

You left your brain somewhere else? There is no option to say violence is not acceptable but I disagree with Western society. The more you speak, the less I think of you.

And you obviously left you're manners somewhere. While reading all those conspiracy theories, you at least spare some time to learn about common manners and courtesy.

Sorry. Maybe that was a bit harsh. Was late at night and I'd had a bit to drink.

Well at least you have the manners to apologise when you insult others.

Now, the cartoonists either knew that and still did it, which makes it a provocation and incitement to hate, or they didn't know, which makes them ignorant idiots who have nothing to do running papers.

That's not an incitement to hate, the cartoons do not "incite hatred" nor encourage it. They ridicule yes, but that is different.

You're wasting youre time Barman. Zephyr just wants to moan about European 'intolerance', and no matter how many times we explain to him we have something called political satire in our culture he's not going to change that attitude.

People have mentioned 'clash of cultures' over the last few topics on these cartoons, well thats what this is. In western culture we're allowed to mock historical and political figures, in the Islamic culture you apparently can't.... unless they died in the holocaust, which then makes it fine. Zephyr and the other people who complain about these just arn't willing to realise this, and rather say it was some infarious sceem trying to provoke race riots, rather than face up to the fact that to westerners it was nothing more than some ink of a page.

And as regards the topic. The UK is a Secular society with Christian traditions evolving now from moderate-Christianity towards Atheism. Its outrageous for anyone to say we should replace our secular society with hard-line religious values, let alone one imported to Britain from elsewhere. Britain and the rest of the west should continue on our current path towards science over mythology and to the development of Atheism.

[zephyr]

LOL are you sure you even know what fascism is? cause being that Israel is the only democracy in the Middle-East, you seem to be confused.

The only state in the entire middle east where gays and religious minorites can express their ideas and feelings publicly, even against the state, and feel safe (and I'm pretty certain homosexuality is not tolerated by religious Jews).

Invading our neighbours when they attack us is called self-defense .

The only place in the Middle East where muslims can freely vote and freely express their ideas even when they are against the government.

Your co-religions have proved that you can genocide people with horses and guns. If we really tried to wipe out anyone, we would have been far more successful. In the meantime, it is the Arab and Muslim states who have been trying to wipe us out for the last 57 years, failing misserably.

This is simply good old blood libel. Again, not surprising coming out of a loyal Iranian .

Oh boo hoo .

Stop equating the West's self-defense to the Holocaust. It's almost like denying it.

Since fascism grew out of democracies (Hitler was elected democratically), you are the one who is totally confused, and Israel remains a fascist state. They must have learned well their lessons from their fascist prosecuters.

Gays might be able to express themselves freely in Israel, but the Palestinains are prosecuted daily for doing so.

Your nonsense stereotypes about me being an Iranian is not going very far, just proves the pointlessness of your arguments. And the Nazis going at the Jews also thought they were doing it in self defense. Your support for the fascists at work in Europe just proves that you don't care about the concept of fascism as along as it is applied in accordance with your own cynical agenda and the genocide your country is performing on the Palestinains and the Muslims in general. There is your cliche statements again even when they don't obviously apply, that's why you equate my reasoning to 'denying the Holocaust' when I'm doing the exact opposite. I know it's hard to for you to find valid arguments because you are trying to defend what is not defendable, but this does not mean that you can resort to just any old nonsense and make your arguments look even more ridiculous. Go and find something more convincing to say.

[zephyr]

And the nonsense continues. You are the one calling for wars, eliminating Muslim Europeans and ejecting them from their homes, and you call me an extremist?

Where Zephyr, where do I say 'kick all UK Muslims out there homes'? I remember one reference a month ago about kicking extremists out of there homes. I can only assume you are saying therefore all Muslims are extremists? Personally I don't agree with you on that, I don't think all Muslims are, but if that’s what you believe then... *shrugs*

And you say I'm calling for war? You miss out you're leader wants a nuke, and there are tons of Islamic clerics demanding a war. So may I remind you that there are plenty of Muslims who wanted war before me.

Dude, some of your posts in this forum about Europe are so untrue and demonising I have to wonder if whoever told you them mistook us for Mordor from Lord of the Rings. Serious half of what you think about Europe is rubbish. You keep saying we know nothing about Iran, but have you ever considered you know nothing about Europe?

Dude, if you want to look at dangerous, take a look at those fundamentalist Muslims who blow themselves and the clerics who urge holy war. I find it hard with people like that around you can claim I'd the dangerous one.

I've reply to most of what you post. However, just because I've given up quoting you're most anti-western views and trying to convince you they are untrue, does not you're right and I can't think of counter argument, rather because I know you’ll still hold that ridiculous attitude no mater how much of my time I spend proving its just propaganda.

Go read your own posts, "sending people back to the ME", "kicking Islam out of Europe", and the like. Even if you mean only the extreme elements, it's still a fascistic idea to want to export British extremists to the ME, the whole idea is just foolish and reminds me of the Nazis wanting to expel the European Jews.

Yes; you are calling for wars. Why do you keep bringing what politicians in Iran say and try to stick them to me. Your PM is a proven warmonger and not just in words, based on your logic then, can I assume that everyone in Britain is a confirmed warmonger?

Those that blow themselves up killing the innocent are dangerous, so are the ones calling for wars such as you, the world is filled with dangerous and ignorant people.

Yep; you know nothing about Iran. On the other hand, I have lived and travelled extensively in Europe. I have read lots of books on the history of Europe, and can't even count the number of European films I have watched. I also watch European media and speak two European languages. Once you have done about Iran just a small fraction

of what I have done about Europe, perhaps only then you can begin to compare my knowledge of Europe to your knowledge of Iran, until such time, your comparisons remain at the level of some far-fetched nonsense to prove the points that you don't really have. Nice try, but pretty useless.

Here we go with some old labels such as 'anti-Western'. I'm anti-fascism and the Western type of fascism is included in that, if you equate facism with the West, that's your problem, I can very well distinguish the progressist and humane forces at work in Europe from the fascist ones. You must have learned that kind of labeling from Erikl, as soon as he doesn't have any more valid argument, hop, here he goes with labeling one as 'anti-semetic'. An old tactic that had lost its color and effectiveness.

If you're trying to prove that fascism does not exist in the West anymore, then I can only conclude that you don't even know your own society, and that's why you are failing in that proof.

[zephyr]

Untrue. They refused to print them 3 YEARS AGO. Zephyr, a lot happens in three years. The circumstances gain, the environment changes, people change, issues change. You can't expect issues that stopped a picture being printed 3 years ago to be still prevalent today.

Considering Iran is printing holocaust cartoons you're being completely hypocritical here.

Rubbish, the guy who picked up a pencil and did the doodle could not have predicted Muslims would react like this. He most likely assumed it would come and go in the same light as the satire about Catholic priests being paedophiles, Marxists, politicians etc of which, none of them rioted and burned down buildings.

Actually its lack of logic behind you're anti-western attitudes that makes them nonsense, not because I don't agree with it.

That's just your stereotyped opinion based on your ignorance of Islam and what I believe in. The Nazis are already in Europe, and judging by some posts here, they are really not very far away.

... no its because you said Allah will decide if Nazis become to Europe that I think you've got religious biases at play here, not because I've been victimised by propaganda, which I'd like to remind you does nothing now but talk about how nice Muslims are and 'Islam means peace'. Zephyr, if the mainstream western media really is trying to brainwash us, its certainly not to hate Islam.

Those remarks were so stupid that it's hard to get upset over them. At first, you said you wished to bomb me, and when you realized that you were making a fool of yourself, you then changed your scenario to an even sillier one of bombing my computer! I suggest you stop bringing this up, because every time you do, you make a bigger fool of yourself.

No Zephyr, I said since you were making such a big deal about Iran being invincible that I hoped a stray missile hit you're computer and save from you're comments. I never said anything about you, and its all written in a past thread if anyone wants to see it. So stop exaggerating and get over it, because you're constant bringing them up shows you did get upset by them.

You're not doing your culture any favor by insisting that insulting others in form of silly drawings are part of it. And speaking of myth, the fact that you believe that Muslims are asking you to give up your culture in favor of theirs is a real big myth created for you by the brainwashing propaganda that you are exposed to all day and everyday.

... dude, every Christmas for the last three years a group of Muslims stand outside my local Asda with signs saying Xmas trees should not be sold. Every year we have people saying Christmas should be now called 'Crimbo' or 'winterville', every year you here about more schools banning Santa etc. So do not come here and claim its all western propaganda.

And your inability to see that making tasteless jokes that you know are going to insult others

Zephyr, have you ever considered the fact that so many western people disagree with you, shows that western culture doesn't think these cartoons are a big deal, and equally thus there was no secret nWo-style conspiracy involved in their making.

The points is about extremist Muslims who do blow up, a very real issue.

What changed from three years ago, if anything, is that the fascist parties in Denmark now need a push and the paper decided to help their friends with that push, while Jesus cartoons three years ago were not needed for the primitive agenda of the fascists then.

There you go about Iran again. Just drop these silly remarks, believe me you would look better, because you trying to prove me wrong based on what is published in some paper in Iran just does not hold any water and your arguments are sinking deeper everytime you use such ridiculous non-arguments.

Some more 'anti-Western' labels. Do you have some more intelligent things to say or am I wasting my time with you? It's not anti-Western to say watch out for the cynical schemes of the fascists, it's actually pro-Western since nobody wants to see the rise of a fascist West anymore, but rather a tolerant, peaceful West.

Of course the Westerners themselves have to prevent the fascists from taking over, god can only help them in that difficult task if they deserve to be helped by him; inshallah! And sure, I'm biased against fascism and proud of it, my religion has nothing to do with it and if it does, it just shows that my religion is heavily anti-fascist. Just watch out for the fascists, and watch out that with your naivity you don't fall in the trap that they have set for people like you, and let me worry about my religion.

Are you a spokesman for all Western people now? Many agreed with the Nazis as well, which, if your generalized statement about all Westerners is true, makes the situation in the West even worse than previously imagined. But I don't think your general view of the West is a correct one and that's why I think in the long run, the reasonable and open-minded Westerners (and there are a lot of them around), will finally defeat the rising fascists; inshallah!

Yep; those who blow themselves up and others along with themselves are a real issue, just like the fascists and their cynical agendas are. That's why I count on moderates everywhere to unite their forces and defeat the fascists of this world who recognize nothing but hatred and violence.

[Talon]

You know Zephyr, you're insane. You're brainwashed, you're racist, and you just want to feel hard-done to. I'm sick of hearing you're lies and exaggerations about what I've said, and about westerners in general. You're just wasting my time trying to reason with you since the only reply you're capable of coming back with is a more wordy version of 'Europe's fascist! The US is fascist! You're fascist! And Iran is the nicest country on Earth!"

At least for the case of rationality people on this site we can rely on the fact that most of the people here ARE from western societies, and know everything you say is just propaganda. You're fooling nobody but yourself.

Edited February 25, 2006 by Talon

[Erikl]

Since fascism grew out of democracies (Hitler was elected democratically), you are the one who is totally confused, and Israel remains a fascist state. They must have learned well their lessons from their fascist prosecuters.

Do you even know what fascism is?

Or are you just throwing words regardless of what they mean?

Fascism didn't grow out of democracies, it was enabled to took over democracies because those democracies allowed any idea to be expressed, and so the fascists where able to spread their ideas freely.

Fascism grew out of fear of Communism and reaction against democracy (virtually all the countries that have gone fascist either done so when communism was the most popular or when democracy was imposed on a non democratic society).

You obviously know nothing about the subject, which doesn't surprise me, since Iranians have no exprience with democracy to really judge it.

Gays might be able to express themselves freely in Israel, but the Palestinains are prosecuted daily for doing so.

Excuse me? Palestinians are equal Israeli citizens in the State of Israel. They form 20% of our population, and have 11 MPs representitives out of a total of 120 Israeli MPs (that's about 10%).

Israel is the only place in the Middle East where Muslims can freely express their thoughts and feelings and not being prosecuted for doing so. As a matter of fact, one of those Palestinian MPs regulary speak against Israel, meets with leaders of countries which Israel is at war with, and still serves as an MP in our parliament.

Palestinians in the territories are prosecuted (yeah the legal term) not for expressing their ideas but for assisting suicide bombing. They usually get life sentences.

Your nonsense stereotypes about me being an Iranian is not going very far, just proves the pointlessness of your arguments.

Stereotypes? You are the one stereotyping my country, demonizing it, and talk nonsensically which just shows your ignorance.

And the Nazis going at the Jews also thought they were doing it in self defense.

Zephyr, do yourself a favor, don't mention the Nazi thing anymore because you obviously know nothing about it and the way you use it shows you as a complete ignorant, not to say a bit anti-semitic (when you demonize Israel and deliberatly equate Jews to Nazis).

Your support for the fascists at work in Europe just proves that you don't care about the concept of fascism as along as it is applied in accordance with your own cynical agenda and the genocide your country is performing on the Palestinains and the Muslims in general.

Is Talon a fascist? is thebarman a fascist? I think not. As a matter of fact, me and Talon have opposite world views. Talon isn't even pro-Israeli, he actually supports the Palestinian cause.

You label anyone who disagrees with your opressive world view as fascist when we all saw how much muslims regard freedom of speech.

The truth is that your country, along with the Arab world, is a lot closer to the old European fascist model than any Western state.

As for blaming my country of genocide - it's not only absurd and down right stupid, it's also incredibly easy to refute. What do you take us all for? idiots?

Anyone who has a remote knowledge of the casualties in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict knows it doesn't get close to genocidal numbers. Actually in the last year alone more Palestinians died from inner Palestinian terrorism than from actions taken by the Israeli military.

In total, since the outbreak of the current violence in 2000, about three thousand Palestinians died and one thousand Israelis were killed.

That's in 6 years of conflict.

There are 3.8 million Palestinians in the territories. 3,000 deads are 0.0007% of the population - it must be the least effective genocide ever carried out in world history .

And being that we Israelis have top weaponry (as many criticisers of Israel like to remind us all), it's quite illogical that if we were attempting to genocide anyone we would have failed so badly, especially when Muslims in Sudan proved how easy it is to get away with genocide using only horses and guns.

Go and spread your poisonous blood libels somewhere else.

I know it's hard to for you to find valid arguments because you are trying to defend what is not defendable, but this does not mean that you can resort to just any old nonsense and make your arguments look even more ridiculous. Go and find something more convincing to say.

Yes Zephyr, that's it. You stick to your own bubble world, where Israel is satan and Iran is a saint, where muslims are all victimized by those evil westerners and europe is ran by fascists .

You do that, and ignore the rest of us which live in the real world .

Edited February 25, 2006 by Erikl

[Talon]

Erikl you're wasting you're time, the guy's on the fringe, he's a hard-liner. Nothing you say is going to change his mind, it would be like trying to convince a member of the SS that Hitler is evil, he's so far gone its like talking to a brick wall.

Edited February 25, 2006 by Talon

[bathory]

Zephyr, it isn't westerners blowing themselves up amongst other muslims because of some slight disagreement on translation or whatever, thats your culture....not ours, we grew out of that several hundred years ago.