"The poor you will have with you always"

[Glacies]

The title of the thread should get the attention of most posters. though before any conclusions of this threads subject is jumped to, please, let me expand upon my brief topic description.

while at a dinner party with some friends of the family, my ever the skeptic father brought up the concept of poverty and god. (this isn't the point of this thread, as in it i am not questioning god or jesus or any aspect of the faith) Mr. Jones, (the thrower of the party) brought up matthew 26:11, in which is stated "the poor you will have with you always" or similar translations. He then stated, since this is clearly written, the poor will always be there, so we have no need to help them, they'll get along.

needless to say, my father was rightly shocked, and asked a question, which i am now posing for UM:

"How can you take such a statement and distort it to such an extent it's very message is reversed!" my father went on to state this section actually meant the poor will always be with us, so it's our job to help them, always.

In short, i wonder what would cause a person to take words of help and guidance and manipulate them to pervert the meaning so? I mean is it greed? moreover, is Mr. Jones(and other like minded individuals) aware of the true meaning or do they really think that is what jesus meant?

sorry, that's an awefully big mouthful, remember take small bites, and chew thoroughly!

[Imaginary Friend]

I think those that take comfort in what ever was, believing it shall ever be, do so from a station where they ever expect to be.

[bacca]

I would say this....the passage should make people look around themselves...i know people who have plenty of money but are unhappy or do not have children or other family....and i also know people who have no money and are just happy people surrounded by friends and family...

Now I know that the above stated idea sounds very cliche but it is true being poor is not always about money....it's about looking around you at the people who don't have something..I know most people just think of money or a big house or what not but it's more then that....I don't have a lot of money....but i have a child and a big family and great friends what is more important then that? well i'm not poor and to be honest if someone looked at me and made a comment about needing to help me because i didn't make really good money i would be very offended that someone who had money felt that they had some need or right to try and 'save' me......

Perhaps that seems simple but i think that you should help those around you who want or ask for help and everyone else.....well perhaps they have their reasons

I'm sure that did not make sense sorry ya'll i'm tired tonight

[Something Like Laughter]

its quite easy to do. all one has to do is take a line and apply it far outside of its intended context.

[Glacies]

True, something like laughter, that is very true, and i understand what bacca is saying as well, being poor, doesn't just mean through money, but isn't the intended meaning of the passage to help those out who are poor(in any meaning of the word), not ignore them as they'll fend for themselves?

[+Link of Hyrule]

One also has to consider the reasoning behind this statement. The focus of this passage - was it the poor? NO! THe focus was Jesus

Matthew 26:6-12

Now when Jesus was at Bethany in the house of Simon the leper, a woman came up to him with an alabaster flask of very expensive ointment, and she poured it on his head as he reclined at table. And when the disciples saw it, they were indignant, saying, "Why this waste? For this could have been sold for a large sum and given to the poor." But Jesus, aware of this, said to them, "Why do you trouble the woman? For she has done a beautiful thing to me. For you always have the poor with you, but you will not always have me. In pouring this ointment on my body, she has done it to prepare me for burial.

Clearly, this passage has a very specific historical context. We will always have poor people. But Jesus won't be on Earth forever. It's not the only time Jesus says something similar. He speaks as such many times. i am only with you for a short time.

And almost an aside, Jesus says his body is being prepared for burial (he knows he will be sacrificed).

Yes, the poor will always be there, and yes, Christians are supposed to help the poor (come to think of it, the Christians are poor..... in spirit at least, cf Matthew 5). Yet this passage, speaking of Jesus, is not, in my opinion, a passage we can literally apply to our lives today, 2000 years in the future.

That's my take on things anyway.

Regards, PA

Edited March 24, 2006 by Paranoid Android

[JeremyGTS]

well to me that makes jesus sound like its all about him and we should bow down like chumps... i think jesus being who he is supposed to be should of sold the oils for the poor but theres only one robin hood haha

[GIDEON MAGE]

What makes this particular section of the n.t. ridiculous is that, if he was really going to resurrect, why would he need to be annointed for burial?

[Irish]

What makes this particular section of the n.t. ridiculous is that, if he was really going to resurrect, why would he need to be annointed for burial?

Three days in a tomb after a severe beating he needed to smell nice.

No seriously it was a nice gesture of the woman involved and Jesus was just pointing out that fact to the others.

Irish

[GIDEON MAGE]

Three days in a tomb after a severe beating he needed to smell nice.

No seriously it was a nice gesture of the woman involved and Jesus was just pointing out that fact to the others.

Irish

actually, a lot of xians claim this was his annointing, even though it was not done by a high priest, but by a woman. Hard to believe you missed a cue, irish.

[Bella-Angelique]

well to me that makes jesus sound like its all about him and we should bow down like chumps... i think jesus being who he is supposed to be should of sold the oils for the poor but theres only one robin hood haha

They were not his to sell. The gift was not really for him. It was the woman doing it for herself to help her in handling her grief at the coming separation.

It was a lot like flowers at a funeral. The gift is not really for the departed, it is an act of love for towards them that comforts the living as they contemplate that they shall not see each other again in this life, and that might be a very long time.

The needs of the grieving should be rspected. There is always later to return to charity work after that.

I think the way some funerals in the media have become politcal events is quite horrible.

[+Sherapy]

I think its natural to give , what interests me is the debate between two people using the bible as reference questioning should one give and using bible scripture to justify not giving, seems to me your Dads freind got a freind in your Dad a reminder that ...What you do for others you do for yourself and what you fail to do for others you fail to do for yourself.......

[Glacies]

...What you do for others you do for yourself and what you fail to do for others you fail to do for yourself.......

very true sheri, very true

[Bluefinger]

well to me that makes jesus sound like its all about him and we should bow down like chumps... i think jesus being who he is supposed to be should of sold the oils for the poor but theres only one robin hood haha

But only a chump would think like that.

Webster Dictionary defines a chump as: informal, a foolish or gullible person.

Jesus was neither of these. For a wordly man, Jesus will seem like a chump. But when does a child consider his dad foolish? Its when the dad is always right and the spoiled child does not want to hear the truth anymore. So many times has God tried to correct mankind and help him, but he keeps pushing him away. Because the men and women of the worldly ways would rather serve themselves and die than to serve God and live. Hey, thats their choice. I'm serving God, not only because I want to live, but because he has given me plenty of reasons to live and has shown much love to me. I serve him because I love him. But the world loves itself and thinks nothing of God that would result in any consequence. Tisk.

God bless

[Glacies]

I do appreciate your input bluefinger, (and your grammar usage, far too often decent grammar usage is all but ignored), and i do agree with your sentiments regarding jesus as neither foolish nor gullible. yet i would like to here your input in regards to the original question posed, in which I'd inquired about the distortion or misinterpretation of words from jesus as an excuse to discriminate.

[Bluefinger]

I do appreciate your input bluefinger, (and your grammar usage, far too often decent grammar usage is all but ignored), and i do agree with your sentiments regarding jesus as neither foolish nor gullible. yet i would like to here your input in regards to the original question posed, in which I'd inquired about the distortion or misinterpretation of words from jesus as an excuse to discriminate.

Ask the KKK and they will give you their interpretation. Ask the snake handlers and they will to. Ask any one who feels justified of the Bible by their own logic instead of by the power of the Holy Spirit as well as the ability to just let the Bible interpret itself and you will get many interpretations on one verse solely based on one person's own opinions toward the topic instead of the Lord's opinion on the topic. Its that easy. Ask 5,000 American Caucasians if they think slavery is okay, and you might find that you'll get many opinions, mainly based on how the person was raised.

Thats why the apostles were opposed to the thought of a woman annointing Jesus for his coming funeral with expensive ointment instead of selling it to give to the poor. Jesus told them, "The poor you will always have, but I will not always be here." This implies that Jesus was the main theme and his opinion is what counts in the matter. We all know what the Bible says about love. "Love thy neighbor." But the Commandments also say, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." This implies that you shall not have anything else before God, not even money. The closest thing to your heart should be God. And anything you do, it should be for God's glory. Regardless of whether the women was helping herself my annointing Jesus, the fact is that she loved Jesus and would miss him. This implies that she was indeed doing it for God for she loved him so much that it would grieve her to see him go. And when he left, the poor was still there and God's commands still stood.

Thus God always comes first! Always. Its either for his glory or for the wrong reasons. Some Atheists may find this appauling, but like I said, its by their reasoning and not of the Lord's.

God bless you glacies.

Edited March 24, 2006 by Bluefinger

[Insight]

The title of the thread should get the attention of most posters. though before any conclusions of this threads subject is jumped to, please, let me expand upon my brief topic description.

while at a dinner party with some friends of the family, my ever the skeptic father brought up the concept of poverty and god. (this isn't the point of this thread, as in it i am not questioning god or jesus or any aspect of the faith) Mr. Jones, (the thrower of the party) brought up matthew 26:11, in which is stated "the poor you will have with you always" or similar translations. He then stated, since this is clearly written, the poor will always be there, so we have no need to help them, they'll get along.

I am a Christian man, and hearing that DISGUSTS ME!!! Jesus Christ himself did more for the poor beggars on the street then he ever did for the rich and powerful. Infact, Christ also told the rich young ruler to give away all his earthly possesions to the poor, in order that materialism might not get in the way of his slavation. He didn't say, "sell your possesions", he SPECIFFICALLY said, GIVE THEM TO POOR PEOPLE!!!

What the verse actually means, is that in any society, no matter how well structuered, you will always have poverty, and that we must not become so comfortable in our wealth as to forget the less fortunate, or even pretend they don't exist!

"How can you take such a statement and distort it to such an extent it's very message is reversed!"

Satan quotes scripture. And what better way to spread lies than to pretend they are God's words, but with a twisted meaning. If you think Satan would appear as a fiery dragon, your wrong. No one would believe an evil looking creature. Satan would appear as close to God as he can possibly get, in order to spread his lies. He even tries to use God's own words against him!

my father went on to state this section actually meant the poor will always be with us, so it's our job to help them, always.

In short, i wonder what would cause a person to take words of help and guidance and manipulate them to pervert the meaning so? I mean is it greed? moreover, is Mr. Jones(and other like minded individuals) aware of the true meaning or do they really think that is what jesus meant?

sorry, that's an awefully big mouthful, remember take small bites, and chew thoroughly!

What would cause a person to distort the truth so badly is a whole other topic. But all in all, that was literally a sickening thing for me to read. EVERYTHING in the Bible points us towards the direction of helping our the less fortunate. And here is a great verse to explain that. Christ said:

"Whatever you do to the least of my brothers, that you also do to me."

This means that treating poor people like crap makes Christ feel like crap. Infact, if you look at it in the contexts of this Mr. Jones, by deciding he didn't need to help poor people, he is deciding it's not important to treat the SON OF GOD with any respect.

Disgusting.

[Oderint]

Behold!

For I will reveal to thee my great lack of insight:

Surely you're not saying

that we have the resources

to save the poor from their lot?

There will be poor always

patheticaly strugling,

look at the good things you've got.

Think, while you still have me

Move, while you still see me

You'll be lost

and you'll be sorry

When I'm gone

^Jesus Christ Superstar

(sorry, I just automatically started singing this when I read the thread title )

[bacca]

how can you sit there and say 'what the verse really means' ? how do you know? it is your personal interpretation nothing more then that....no matter how much you think you know what was meant by it unless you were there it is just your opinion.....

[Bluefinger]

how can you sit there and say 'what the verse really means' ? how do you know? it is your personal interpretation nothing more then that....no matter how much you think you know what was meant by it unless you were there it is just your opinion.....

You don't have to interpret it. The Bible does that, all you have to do is be willing to see.

[bacca]

You see what you want to see nothing more....the bible is a bunch of words that people see in what they want.....you see it one way and someone else may see it a different way...Blue if it was so clear then there would never be a debate and people wouldn't want or need to learn about it or to have someone else interpret it for them.....however that happens all the time.....but perhaps you are more able to know what was meant 2000 years ago then anyone else

[+Sherapy]

The title of the thread should get the attention of most posters. though before any conclusions of this threads subject is jumped to, please, let me expand upon my brief topic description.

while at a dinner party with some friends of the family, my ever the skeptic father brought up the concept of poverty and god. (this isn't the point of this thread, as in it i am not questioning god or jesus or any aspect of the faith) Mr. Jones, (the thrower of the party) brought up matthew 26:11, in which is stated "the poor you will have with you always" or similar translations. He then stated, since this is clearly written, the poor will always be there, so we have no need to help them, they'll get along.

I am a Christian man, and hearing that DISGUSTS ME!!! Jesus Christ himself did more for the poor beggars on the street then he ever did for the rich and powerful. Infact, Christ also told the rich young ruler to give away all his earthly possesions to the poor, in order that materialism might not get in the way of his slavation. He didn't say, "sell your possesions", he SPECIFFICALLY said, GIVE THEM TO POOR PEOPLE!!!

What the verse actually means, is that in any society, no matter how well structuered, you will always have poverty, and that we must not become so comfortable in our wealth as to forget the less fortunate, or even pretend they don't exist!

"How can you take such a statement and distort it to such an extent it's very message is reversed!"

Satan quotes scripture. And what better way to spread lies than to pretend they are God's words, but with a twisted meaning. If you think Satan would appear as a fiery dragon, your wrong. No one would believe an evil looking creature. Satan would appear as close to God as he can possibly get, in order to spread his lies. He even tries to use God's own words against him!

my father went on to state this section actually meant the poor will always be with us, so it's our job to help them, always.

In short, i wonder what would cause a person to take words of help and guidance and manipulate them to pervert the meaning so? I mean is it greed? moreover, is Mr. Jones(and other like minded individuals) aware of the true meaning or do they really think that is what jesus meant?

sorry, that's an awefully big mouthful, remember take small bites, and chew thoroughly!

What would cause a person to distort the truth so badly is a whole other topic. But all in all, that was literally a sickening thing for me to read. EVERYTHING in the Bible points us towards the direction of helping our the less fortunate. And here is a great verse to explain that. Christ said:

"Whatever you do to the least of my brothers, that you also do to me."

This means that treating poor people like crap makes Christ feel like crap. Infact, if you look at it in the contexts of this Mr. Jones, by deciding he didn't need to help poor people, he is deciding it's not important to treat the SON OF GOD with any respect.

Disgusting.

What it should be saying is we shouldn't allow constructs that would allow for some to be 'poor' while some hoard the resoruces and this particular scripture is advocating that there is justification in such treatment of each other, the bible actually generates just such treatments in many ways, actually the bible is steeped full of advocating division amoungst each other.... .Now the meaning of that scripture is we are all one what you do to another is what you do for yourself what you fail to do for another you fail to do for yourself, this allegory is meant to convey a great truth, what goes around comes around IMO of course

[+joc]

What it should be saying is we shouldn't allow constructs that would allow for some to be 'poor' while some hoard the resoruces and this particular scripture is advocating that there is justification in such treatment of each other, the bible actually generates just such treatments in many ways, actually the bible is steeped full of advocating division amoungst each other.... .Now the meaning of that scripture is we are all one what you do to another is what you do for yourself what you fail to do for another you fail to do for yourself, this allegory is meant to convey a great truth, what goes around comes around IMO of course

Of course it might be helpful to actually 'read' the scriptures instead of reading what other people 'say' about them. If you were to read you might find examples such as the Very Rich man who asked Jesus, 'What do I need to do to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven?', to which Jesus replied, 'Sell all that you have, give it to the poor, and come follow me'.

The verse, The poor you have with you always, is about very expensive oils that were going to be poured out upon Jesus prior to his crucifixion. One of his followers suggested selling them and giving the money to the poor...to which Jesus replied, 'The poor you have with you always...'. He was making a point about his upcoming date with the crucifix....a point that at the time was totally missed.

.the bible is a bunch of words that people see in what they want.

The Berri Clan seems to be missing a very important 'something' about the scriptures. Yes, they are words, and yes many people understand them very differently...but overall there is a basic Truth in the scriptures and that basic truth is what The Clan is apparently overlooking.

The Basic Truth

We are but a vapor in time. God is eternal.

What we do in the 'vapor' is very important.

Therefore,

Treat people the way you want to be treated.

Love your neighbor as if your neighbor were yourself.

Feed the poor. Help the sick. Listen to the needy.

If I could interject a thought at this point: (thank-you)

I would like to say that overall the people in the churches are good, kind, honest people.

I would also like to say that the Church, as an organizational corporate entity is rotten to the core. Show me a church...yes even your church...and I will show you a church that has strayed so far from the basic truths I listed above that they are worthy of the unbeliever to be loathed. The churches can preach Christ Crucified all they want, but until they start spending as much on food pantries for the poor as they spend on their salaries, parking lots, buildings, etc....they are preaching to a deaf and dumb choir.

[Bluefinger]

You see what you want to see nothing more....the bible is a bunch of words that people see in what they want.....you see it one way and someone else may see it a different way...Blue if it was so clear then there would never be a debate and people wouldn't want or need to learn about it or to have someone else interpret it for them.....however that happens all the time.....but perhaps you are more able to know what was meant 2000 years ago then anyone else

Dude, if I write to Congress that abortion is wrong and give several reasons why, then you can't debate the fact that I think abortion is wrong. You don't have to have a personal interview with me to figure that out. IT IS the same thing with the Bible. It isn't often that the Bible doesn't explain itself more than once. It takes patience and a will to learn to just open up the Bible, read it, and let it explain itself. There is no excuse anymore. There are concordances which track each word. No one has to determine what Jesus meant by saying, "Love thy neighbor." It doesn't take a Ph.D. to figure that out. As far as some of the other stuff, God sealed that so that you wouldn't understand it. Thats so you can't take something and turn it to something that justifies your flesh. If you don't want to do it God's way, what can you possibly expect from God that will ever satisfy your need to understand? God revealed His intentions with mankind, and throughout history, mankind has proven that they don't want God to help them. They don't want what he has to offer. They just want to live, breed, and die. Which is fine, but they shouldn't criticize us Christians by how we choose to live. The same can go for anyone.

[Bluefinger]

What it should be saying is we shouldn't allow constructs that would allow for some to be 'poor' while some hoard the resoruces and this particular scripture is advocating that there is justification in such treatment of each other, the bible actually generates just such treatments in many ways, actually the bible is steeped full of advocating division amoungst each other.... .Now the meaning of that scripture is we are all one what you do to another is what you do for yourself what you fail to do for another you fail to do for yourself, this allegory is meant to convey a great truth, what goes around comes around IMO of course

Nah, Jesus just stated a fact about mankind. Mankind is greedy and there will always be poor people because of this. So thus, you will always have the poor. You can't just sit there and say that Jesus was justifying himself. He was making it clear that everything was about Him in the beginning. He continually tried to wake people up to this fact, it was always about him. So, no the Bible doesn't justify bad treatment to the unfortunate. If you ever read anyone's posts completely, you may find that it was explained that Jesus said that would you do for the least of the brethren, so you do for Christ. For it is to God's glory and for our benefit that we love each other. Ontop of all that, about as much as we can do is wait for the stock market crash, then we will all be at the same working class. There's only so much you can do to stop the rich from hoarding all the resources.