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Sanjuro

America’s Brutal Tactics

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dnb420

Yeah now you call me american hater soon you will call me terrorist, blah blah blah.

US war politics are all about hate, look at 9/11 , goverment blows you up and then points to one of many " terrorist support countrys" and , BAM, wardogs are realeased, they run into battle full with hate, they want revenge they are blind..

And war generates more hate, more terrorists are born, man and woman who have lost familiys and point of their lifes because of wardogs .. they become terrorists .. beings full of hate and they start to kill americans and it generates more hate and it never stops, you kill one terrorist - 2 will born in his place, you kill one american - they will kill more.

I cant see end to this. Wardogs are realeased and there is no chains that holds them back..

If everyone will say good things about you, when you will be able to say difference between good and evil?

Where is difference between fight for freedom and mass murder?

I see that some peoples have lost these skills of telling the difference long time ago due to mass media and propoganda.

Agreed

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shikon1

i think you'll find the people claiming Vietnam = iraq are either too stupid to understand the reality of vietnam, or sympathise politically on some level with those opposing the US.

i dont agree with those who oppose our country, im studing veitnam right now and its pretty close in the ways i said above, the main difference is the cause, we went into veitnam to help the south repell the communists from taking over, and the numbers are way different compared to the iraq war

vietnam was alot worse than iraq though

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Shuriken
one reason they dont show the full extent, gore wise, on mainstream media in america is because of a lil organization called the FCC. also i dont think the family members of the soldiers you see being blasted want to see that.

So then what's the point of whatching news if they are showing only what you wish to see? Nobody likes war (exept some brainwashed morons) So perheps TV companys will soon figure out that its profitable to show some usual TV show or whatever insted of news.

Perhesps those things Sanjuro posted aren't provable enough, but there are thing you can't ignore. The FACT, that US government blasted the two towers with huge amount of exlplosives just to have some kind of excuse for occupying the Iraq is just miserably. And the FACT that thay appointed their own investigation just to hide all the evidence is even more shamefully...

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Stellar

dont get nasty because i am correct. where are you from anyway?

another thing, who the hell are you to tell me to **** off? why dont you **** off i didnt say anything to you so mind your own business and do so without using inappropriate language

Why? Because I'm not the one claiming its alright to torture people simply because the enemy which you call "terrorists" are doing the same. Secondly, I'm not the one generalising them and condemning all arabs either.

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aquatus1

Just to clarify...

Is anyone here claiming that wars are not due to politics? That wars are not universally brutal? That soldiers throughout history have never raped, pillaged, plundered?

It would seem then, that this isn't a matter of IF it happened, but rather of how much it happened. And in regards to the wars of past ages, these two wars were pretty damn gentle in comparison.

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Sanjuro

Just to clarify...

That wars are not universally brutal? That soldiers throughout history have never raped, pillaged, plundered?

We live in 21 century, its not the middle ages where you can pillage, rape etc..

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aquatus1

We live in 21 century, its not the middle ages where you can pillage, rape etc..

I didn't ask if you thought it was right or wrong, allowed, or not allowed. I asked if there was ever, in all of history, a war in which it did not occur.

The simple fact of the matter is that there is not. These things happen in war and there is very little you can do to eliminate it. Despite what some may like to spout, soldiers are individuals, and individuals do lose control. All you can ever hope for is to reduce the instances as much as possible. That is what the U.S. military does. It trains, it enforces, and it punishes.

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Stellar

Is anyone here claiming that wars are not due to politics? That wars are not universally brutal? That soldiers throughout history have never raped, pillaged, plundered?

Im claiming that the tactics used are not "brutal american tactics". The tactics (the actual ones mentioned, such as clearing buildings) is lawful, and its the only way for it to be done, and I do not see any brutality in it.

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Fluffybunny

Im claiming that the tactics used are not "brutal american tactics". The tactics (the actual ones mentioned, such as clearing buildings) is lawful, and its the only way for it to be done, and I do not see any brutality in it.

There is no brutality in it as long as the people doing it are not American soldiers, then all bets are off and the melodrama begins.

It bugs me to no end to know that people condemn soldiers for doing their best to save innocent peoples lives, and to portray them as some kind of monsters.

Of course bad things happen, and the Army punishes those people appropriately, far more severely than civilian courts do, but the overwhelming majority of people doing the jobs of removing weapon caches are good average people that feel like they are making a positive impact on the future of Iraq...

So yes, the methods we use are legal and an effectivee way of removing weapons from the hands of the insurgents. If anyone knows of a better way to do the job, I'd be all ears...

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StalingradK
The FACT, that US government blasted the two towers with huge amount of exlplosives just to have some kind of excuse for occupying the Iraq is just miserably. And the FACT that thay appointed their own investigation just to hide all the evidence is even more shamefully...

9/11, like you know anything about you conspiracy theorist pft, and obviously you have no idea how the war started out so please refrain from posting about it and sit back and enjoy your Latvia

Yeah now you call me american hater soon you will call me terrorist, blah blah blah.

US war politics are all about hate, look at 9/11 , goverment blows you up and then points to one of many " terrorist support countrys" and , BAM, wardogs are realeased, they run into battle full with hate, they want revenge they are blind..

And war generates more hate, more terrorists are born, man and woman who have lost familiys and point of their lifes because of wardogs .. they become terrorists .. beings full of hate and they start to kill americans and it generates more hate and it never stops, you kill one terrorist - 2 will born in his place, you kill one american - they will kill more.

I cant see end to this. Wardogs are realeased and there is no chains that holds them back..

If everyone will say good things about you, when you will be able to say difference between good and evil?

Where is difference between fight for freedom and mass murder?

I see that some peoples have lost these skills of telling the difference long time ago due to mass media and propoganda.

We Americans don't call all our enemies terrorists, George Bush started that fad.

Iraq was a terror supported country, and what's sad is that we gave them a lot of those weapons in the late 80's early 90's. And don't say the government has to blow up two of their own buildings that helped America and other nations around the world greatly just to go to war. It doesn't make sense and your freakin' 9/11 videos and "evidence" of a government cover-up are pretty weak, barley even an Idea let alone a theory.

Men and women in the countries that we've "Taken for the empire, raped, burned, and pillaged" are pretty aware that we are not the ones doing it and that it's the enemy that is. But all you hear on the news is crazy radicals preaching what they and what they want other people to believe.

Aside: Take a look at all the countries we have troops stationed in, are terrorists and soldiers on the other side (not necesarily an enemy) killing them? No it's mostly in the Middle-East because some, not all, but some Muslims believe in the parts of the Koran that teach death to the infidels and that Westerners are corrupt, evil, and unworthy to live. Pretty much brainwashed.

Good and Evil is easy to tell in this war. We (Americans) and the UN are helping to Iraqi's live better lives, we are not loading C4 in the back of a car and driving into a busy market so people die. And what does that prove anyway? What are terrorists trying to do, they know we will not back out so they try to kill their own people?

Fight for Freedom and mass murder... What do you think is going on in Iraq or what happened in Vietnam? Do you think soldiers are just killing Iraqi Civilians for the hell of it? If you think that, we should send you to Iraqi to see what is really going on there.

You tell us about the corrupt mass media and propaganda but you believe in photos that show "American Soldiers" in forest BDU's raping an Iraqi girl but it turns out to just be a porno? What the hell man... what the hell...

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SnakeProphet

I won't even bother to read the comments, I think this thread had more resonance than it really deserves.

This is worthless propaganda. Full Stop.

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Sanjuro

Why does the strongest country in the world go to Iraq to fight for freedom?

The fact is that the power and oil is the main target for US administration so dont plaint in your dreams about heroes and freedom fighters. :tu:

US goverment is not helping to anyone than its hunger for power and world domination.

Lets put aside the 9/11 and afghanistan, lets talk about Guantanamo..

Why does US torture peoples in there? Peoples who havent been proven to be guilty of anything..

And why do you meantion Vietnam? Do you realy think that US was helping to someone in there? For a start they halped French ( who were agressors) invade half of the Vietnam(independent country..) and after french lost their control US came in to take over both Vietnam sides and they failed.

Here is a lession in history : http://www.fsmitha.com/h2/ch26.htm ..

Everything in the world is not as heroic and fair as you may think.

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Shuriken

what the hell indeed.

obviously you have no idea how the war started out

Perhaps u would be so kind and explain to us "brainwashed one's" just how did the Iraq war started?

It doesn't make sense and your freakin' 9/11 videos and "evidence" of a government cover-up are pretty weak, barley even an Idea let alone a theory.

Once again you are very wrong. Those "evidence" are so unmistakable, that the only way for US government to deal with them is to not response. How can you possibly deny the demolition, when u have seen the towers in free fall. I mean, if there were no explosives, there would be no way the towers could crash. Especially like they did. Storeys were hitting the storeys below and so on. It just isn't possible for those towers to crash in 8.4 seconds

Or Perhaps the known physics are also conspiracy?

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StalingradK
Perhaps u would be so kind and explain to us "brainwashed one's" just how did the Iraq war started?

To:

1. to end the regime of Saddam Hussein

2. to eliminate Iraq's weapons of mass destruction

3. to drive out terrorists from Iraq

4. to collect intelligence on terrorist networks

5. to collect intelligence on the global network of illicit weapons of mass destruction

6. to end sanctions and to immediately deliver humanitarian support to the Iraqi citizens

7. to secure Iraq's petroleum resources ( not just for the USA, we don't we only get about 2% of oil from Iraq and it wouldn't really be a big loss if they wouldn't let us get their oil)

8. to help the Iraqi people create conditions for a transition to a representative self-government

Oh yeah, look up these:

Project for the New American Century

American Enterprise Institute

Once again you are very wrong. Those "evidence" are so unmistakable, that the only way for US government to deal with them is to not response. How can you possibly deny the demolition, when u have seen the towers in free fall. I mean, if there were no explosives, there would be no way the towers could crash. Especially like they did. Storeys were hitting the storeys below and so on. It just isn't possible for those towers to crash in 8.4 seconds

Just because something is falling that is big does not mean it has to move slowly, and like a deck of cards, can collapse in a matter of seconds, same concept - just smaller. When you have a gigantic amount of heavy debris falling that is much heavier than the things it's going to crush below it, it's not going to stop.

Take The Time To Read This: http://www.civil.usyd.edu.au/wtc.shtml

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Sanjuro

StalingradK your claims makes me update this topic, so here it goes, info about civilian killing :

How Massacres Become the Norm

US soldiers killing innocent civilians in Iraq is not news. Just as it was not news that US soldiers slaughtered countless innocent civilians in Vietnam. However, when some rare reportage of this non news from Iraq does seep through the cracks of the corporate media, albeit briefly, the American public seems shocked. Private and public statements of denial and dismissal immediately start to fill the air. We hear, "American soldiers would never do such a thing," or "Who would make such a ridiculous claim?"

It amazes me that so many people in the US today somehow seriously believe that American soldiers would never kill civilians. Despite the fact that they are in a no-win guerrilla war in Iraq which, like any other guerrilla war, always generates more civilian casualties than combatant casualties on either side.

Robert J. Lifton is a prominent American psychiatrist who lobbied for the inclusion of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders after his work with US veterans from Vietnam. His studies on the behavior of those who have committed war crimes led him to believe it does not require an unusual level of mental illness or of personal evil to carry out such crimes. Rather, these crimes are nearly guaranteed to occur in what Lifton refers to as "atrocity-producing situations."

Several of his books, like The Nazi Doctors: Medical Killing and the Psychology of Genocide, examine how abnormal conditions work on normal minds, enabling them to commit the most horrendous crimes imaginable.

Iraq today is most certainly an "atrocity-producing situation," as it has been from the very beginning of the occupation.

The latest reported war crime, a US military raid on the al-Mustafa Shia mosque in Baghdad on March 26th, which killed at least 16 people, is only one instance of the phenomena that Lifton has spoken of.

An AP video of the scene shows male bodies tangled together in a bloody mass on the floor of the Imams' living quarters - all of them with shotgun wounds and other bullet holes. The tape also shows shell casings of the caliber used by the US military scattered about on the floor. An official from the al-Sadr political bloc reported that American forces had surrounded the hospital where the wounded were taken for treatment after the massacre.

The slaughter was followed by an instant and predictable disinformation blitz by the US military. The second ranking US commander in Iraq, Lt. Gen. Peter Chiarelli, told reporters "someone went in and made the scene look different from what it was."

On March 15th, 11 Iraqis, mostly women and children, were massacred by US troops in Balad. Witnesses told reporters that US helicopters landed near a home, which was then stormed by US troops. Everyone visible was rounded up and taken inside the house where they were killed. The victims' ages ranged from six months to 75 years.

The US military acknowledged the raid, but claimed to have captured a resistance fighter and insisted that only four people had been killed. Their claim would have held good but for the discrepancies that the available evidence presents. For one, the photographs that the AP reporter took of the scene reveal a collapsed roof, three destroyed cars and two dead cows. The other indictment comes from the detailed report of the incident prepared by Iraq Police. It matches witness accounts and accuses the American troops of murdering Iraqi civilians.

"The American forces gathered the family members in one room and executed 11 persons, including five children, four women and two men. Then they bombed the house, burned three vehicles and killed the animals." The report includes the observation of local medics that all of the bodies had bullet wounds in the head.

Ahmed Khalaf, the nephew of one of the victims said, "The killed family was not part of the resistance, they were women and children. The Americans have promised us a better life, but we get only death." AP photos of the aftermath showed the bodies of five children, two men and four others covered in blankets being driven to a nearby hospital.

Reminiscent of Vietnam?

Another appalling example of the effect of an "atrocity-producing situation" was experienced last November 19th in Haditha. American troops, in retaliation against a roadside bomb attack, stormed nearby homes and shot dead 15 members of two families, including a three-year-old girl.

US military response? All 15 civilians were killed by the blast of the roadside bomb.

In this case, reality refuted their claim when a student of journalism from Haditha showed up with a video tape of the dead, still in their nightclothes.

Killing Iraqis in their homes(Pics) and while they are in bed(Pics) is not news either, for during the aftermath of the November 2004 assault on Fallujah, scores of Iraqis were killed by US soldiers in this manner. (Pics )

Neither is it news that the US military regularly targets ambulances and medical infrastructure. Khaled Ahmed Rsayef, whose brother and six other relatives were killed by the troops, vividly described the blind frustration of the American soldiers and their impulsive revenge at losing one of their own. "American troops immediately cordoned off the area and raided two nearby houses, shooting at everyone inside. It was a massacre in every sense of the word," said Rasayef. While he was not present at the scene, his 15-year-old niece was and her story was corroborated by other residents of the area who witnessed the carnage.

A quick scan of some Arab media reportage for last month exposes further atrocities carried out by US forces in Iraq which find no mention in the corporate media.

March 20, the Daily Dar Al-Salam reported: "US forces destroyed houses in Hasibah and displaced the inhabitants. Also, a source at Abu Ghurayb Secondary School said that US forces raided the school for the third time and arrested the guard."

In December 2003, I personally witnessed US soldiers raid a secondary school in the al-Amiriyah district of Baghdad and detain 16 children.

March 19, Al-Arabia reported: "In another development, seven people, including a woman, were killed in a raid carried out by joint American-Iraqi forces in Al-Dulu'iyah at dawn today. The US Army has so far not confirmed this information."

March 9, Al Sharqiyah Television reported: "US troops opened fire at a civilian vehicle as it passed by Al-Hadba district in the western part of Mosul, northern Iraq. The three occupants of the vehicle were martyred in the incident."

Throughout the three-year history of the US-led catastrophe that is the occupation of Iraq, we have had one instance after another of brutality meted out to innocent Iraqis, by way of direct executions or bombings from the air, or both.

During an attack on a wedding party in May 2004, US troops killed over 40 people, mostly women and children, in a desert village on the Syrian border of Iraq.

APTN footage showed fragments of musical instruments, blood stains, the headless body of a child, other dead children and clumps of women's hair in a destroyed house that was bombed by US warplanes. Other photographs showed dead women and children, and an AP reporter identified at least 10 of the bodies as those of children. Relatives who gathered at a cemetery outside of Ramadi, where all the bodies were buried, told reporters that each of the 28 fresh graves contained between one and three bodies.

The few survivors of the massacre later recounted how in the middle of the night long after the wedding feast had ended, US jets began raining bombs on their tents and houses.

Mrs. Shihab, a 30-year-old woman who survived the massacre, told the Guardian, "We went out of the house and the American soldiers started to shoot us. They were shooting low on the ground and targeting us one by one." She added that she ran with her two little boys before they were all shot, including herself in the leg. "I left them because they were dead," she said of her two little boys, one of whom was decapitated by a shell. "I fell into the mud and an American soldier came and kicked me. I pretended to be dead so he wouldn't kill me."

Thereafter, armored military vehicles entered the village, shooting at all the other houses and the people who were starting to assemble in the open. Following these, two Chinook helicopters offloaded several dozen troops, some of who set explosives in one of the homes and a building next to it. Both exploded into rubble as the helicopters lifted off.

Mr. Nawaf, one of the survivors, said, "I saw something that nobody ever saw in this world. There were children's bodies cut into pieces, women cut into pieces, men cut into pieces. The Americans call these people foreign fighters. It is a lie. I just want one piece of evidence of what they are saying."

Hamdi Noor al-Alusi, the manager of al-Qa'im general hospital, the nearest medical facility to the scene of the slaughter, said that of the 42 killed, 14 were children and 11 women. "I want to know why the Americans targeted this small village," he said, "These people are my patients. I know each one of them. What has caused this disaster?"

As usual, the US military ran a disinformation campaign saying the target was a "suspected safe-house" for foreign fighters and denied that any children were killed. The ever pliant US Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt told reporters that the troops who reported back from the operation "told us they did not shoot women and children."

Topping his ridiculous claim was the statement of Maj. Gen. James Mattis, commander of the 1st Marine Division. "How many people go to the middle of the desert ... to hold a wedding 80 miles (130km) from the nearest civilization?"

Perhaps someone should have informed him that these farmers and nomads often "go to the middle of the desert" because they happen to live there.

"These were more than two dozen military-age males. Let's not be naïve," Mattis stated before being asked by a reporter to comment on the footage on Arabic television which showed a child's body being lowered into a grave. His brilliant response was: "I have not seen the pictures but bad things happen in wars. I don't have to apologize for the conduct of my men."

If the US were a member of the International Criminal Court, Maj. Gen. Mattis may well have been in The Hague right now being tried for aiding and abetting war crimes. How can someone holding an official position like Mattis publicly sanction atrocities?

It is about unnatural responses such as these that Dr. Lifton has written extensively. In a piece he wrote for the New England Journal of Medicine in July 2004, Lifton addressed the issue of US doctors being complicit in torturing Iraqis in Abu Ghraib. This article sheds much light on the situation in Iraq. If we substitute "doctors" with "soldiers" it is easy to understand why American soldiers are regularly committing the excesses that we hear of.

Lifton writes, "American doctors at Abu Ghraib and elsewhere have undoubtedly been aware of their medical responsibility to document injuries and raise questions about their possible source in abuse. But those doctors and other medical personnel were part of a command structure that permitted, encouraged, and sometimes orchestrated torture to a degree that it became the norm - with which they were expected to comply - in the immediate prison environment."

He continues, "The doctors thus brought a medical component to what I call an "atrocity-producing situation" - one so structured, psychologically and militarily, that ordinary people can readily engage in atrocities. Even without directly participating in the abuse, doctors may have become socialized to an environment of torture and by virtue of their medical authority helped sustain it. In studying various forms of medical abuse, I have found that the participation of doctors can confer an aura of legitimacy and can even create an illusion of therapy and healing."

I have personally experienced this. Standing with US soldiers at checkpoints and perimeters of operations in Iraq, I have seen them curse and kick Iraqis, heard them threatening to kill even women and children and then look at me as if they had merely said hello to them. My status of journalist did not deter them because they saw no need for checks.

Having stood with soldiers anticipating that each moving car would turn into a bomb and each passerby into a suicide bomber, I have tasted the stress and fear these soldiers live with on a daily basis. When one of their fellow soldiers is killed by a roadside bomb, the need for revenge may be directed at anything. And repeated often enough, the process gets socialized.

It's about this attitude brought on by the normalization of the abnormal under "atrocity-producing situations" that Dr. Lifton speaks. Unless of course we consider Mattis and others like him to be rare sociopaths who are able to participate in atrocities without suffering lasting emotional harm.

And it is this attitude that is responsible for the incessant replication of wanton slaughter and madness in Iraq today.

Back in November of 2004, I wrote about 12-year-old Fatima Harouz. She lay dazed in a crowded room in Yarmouk Hospital in Bahgdad, feebly waving her bruised arm at flies (Pics ). Her shins had been shattered by bullets from US soldiers when they fired through the front door of her home in Latifiya, a small city just south of Baghdad. Small plastic drainage bags filled with red fluid sat upon her abdomen, where she took shrapnel from another bullet.

Her mother, who was standing with us, said, "They attacked our home and there weren't even any resistance fighters in our area." Her brother had been shot and killed, and his wife was wounded as their home was ransacked by soldiers. "Before they left, they killed all of our chickens," she added, her eyes a mixture of fear, shock and rage.

On hearing the story, a doctor looked at me sternly and asked, "This is the freedom ... in their Disney Land are there kids just like this?"

Another wounded young woman in a nearby hospital bed, Rana Obeidy, had been walking home with her brother. She assumed the soldiers shot her and her brother because he was carrying a bottle of soda. This happened in Baghdad. She had a chest wound(Pics ) where a bullet had grazed her, unlike her little brother, whom the bullets had killed.

There exist many more such cases. Amnesty International has documented scores of human rights violations committed by US troops in Iraq during the first six months of the occupation. To mention but a few:

US troops shot dead and injured scores of Iraqi demonstrators in several incidents. For example, seven people were reportedly shot dead and dozens injured in Mosul on 15 April.

At least 15 people, including children, were shot dead and more than 70 injured in Fallujah on 29 April.

Two demonstrators were shot dead outside the Republican Palace in Baghdad on 18 June.

On 14 May, two US armed vehicles broke through the perimeter wall of the home of Sa'adi Suleiman Ibrahim al-'Ubaydi in Ramadi. Soldiers beat him with rifle butts and then shot him dead as he tried to flee.

US forces shot 12-year-old Mohammad al-Kubaisi as they carried out search operations around his house in the Hay al-Jihad area in Baghdad on 26 June. He was carrying the family bedding to the roof of his house when he was shot. Neighbors tried to rush him to the nearby hospital by car, but US soldiers stopped them and ordered them to go back. By the time they returned to his home, Mohammad al-Kubaisi was dead.

On 17 September, a 14-year-old boy was killed and six people were injured when US troops opened fire at a wedding party in Fallujah.

On 23 September, three farmers, 'Ali Khalaf, Sa'adi Faqri and Salem Khalil, were killed and three others injured when US troops opened a barrage of gunfire reportedly lasting for at least an hour in the village of al-Jisr near Fallujah. A US military official stated that this happened when the troops came under attack but this was vehemently denied by relatives of the dead. Later that day, US military officials reportedly went to the farmhouse, took photographs and apologized to the family.

This last incident ended in a way similar to the one I covered in Ramadi in November, 2003. On the 23rd of that month during Ramadan, US soldiers raided a home where a family was just sitting down together to break their fast.

Three men of the family had their hands tied behind them with plastic ties and were laid on the ground face down while the women and children were made to stand inside a nearby storage closet.

Khalil Ahmed, 30 years old, the brother of two of the victims and cousin with a third, wept when he described to me how after executing the three men the soldiers completely destroyed the home(pics ), using Humvees with machine guns, small tanks, and gunfire from the many troops on foot and helicopters.

We don't know the reason why the soldiers came here. They didn't tell us the reason. We don't know why they killed our family members." Khalil seemed to demand an answer from me. "There are no weapons in this house, there are no resistance fighters. So why did these people have to die? Why?"

Khalil told me that the day after the executions took place, soldiers returned to apologize. They handed him a cake saying they were sorry that they had been given wrong information by someone that told them there were resistance fighters in their house.

This is only a very small sampling. The only way to prevent any of this from being repeated ad infinitum is to remove US soldiers from their "atrocity-producing situation" in Iraq. For it is clearer than ever that the longer the failed, illegal occupation persists, the larger will be the numbers of Iraqis slaughtered by the occupation forces

Dahr Jamail.

***

Dahr Jamail is an independent journalist who spent over 8 months reporting from occupied Iraq. He presented evidence of US war crimes in Iraq at the International Commission of Inquiry on Crimes Against Humanity Committed by the Bush Administration in New York City in January 2006. He writes regularly for TruthOut, Inter Press Service, Asia Times and TomDispatch, and maintains his own web site, dahrjamailiraq.com

***

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Sanjuro

Iraq much worse off than before we "liberated" it

In 1980, Ronald Reagan's chances to unseat Jimmy Carter improved dramatically when he asked one simple question of Americans during a debate: "Are you better off now then you were four years ago?"

With inflation running rampant, Americans held hostage in Iran and mortgage rates at 18 percent, the answer from the masses came back a resounding: "No!."

Today, if you asked the average Iraqi the same question you would get the same answer.

Four years ago, Iraqis enjoyed electricity in most of their homes, walked the streets of Baghdad without fear and, as long as they stayed out of the crosshairs of Saddam Hussein's campaign of terror, led relatively normal lives. More Americans, per capita, died from crime on our streets than from crime in Iraq.

Not so today. Fewer homes in Iraq have electrical power now than before the U.S. invasion in 2003. Iraqi civilians die on city streets daily, victims of a growing war between the occupying forces of the United States and the insurgents who are much better at waging war than American soldiers.

Instead of liberating Iraq we have driven it deeper into poverty, despair and danger. Instead of bringing freedom to the nation we have brought anarchy, death and disruption. Polls of Iraqi citizens show they are angry at the United States for what they see as the destruction of their nation.

I talked recently with a National Guardsman home on leave. He says Americans are hated, despised and feared by those they were supposed to have liberated.

"We worked with an interpreter, an Iraqi who faces retaliation from the insurgents for helping the military, and he told the recently that Iraq would be better off today is we had never invaded their country and had left Saddam Hussein in power," said the guardsman, who asked that his name not be used because he fear retaliation by his commanding officers if he speaks out. "If what he says is true, then why are we there? Why have friends of mine died?"

Why indeed? With a majority of Americans now believing President George W. Bush lied to justify his invasion of Iraq and an even larger majority saying the invasion was a mistake, the question should be: How many more must die, Iraqi and American, before this country admits it was wrong.

Saddam Hussein was a dictator and despot. There's no doubt about that. He killed thousands upon thousands of his own people in periodic purges.

But Americans have proven themselves capable of atrocities. On March 15, near Balad, Iraqi police reported:

"American forces used helicopters to drop troops on the house of Faiz Harat Khalaf situated in the Abu Sifa village of the Ishaqi district. The American forces gathered the family members in one room and executed 11 people, including five children, four women and two men, then they bombed the house, burned three vehicles and killed their animals."

The report continued: "autopsies revealed that all the victims had bullet shots in the head and all bodies were handcuffed."

In Haditha late last year, on November 15, Marines carried out revenge after an insurgent bomb attack on a U.S. force. A nine-year-old survivor of that massacre told Time magazine: "First, they went into my father's room, where he was reading the Koran, and we heard shots. I couldn't see their faces very well, only their guns sticking into the doorway. I watched them shoot my grandfather first in the chest and then in the head. Then they killed my granny.” The Marines killed 15 Iraqis, including women and children. The Pentagon said they were insurgents but no connection with the insurgency was ever established.

Because of incidents like this, many Iraqis feel America, as an occupying force, is no better than Saddam or other butchers in history. Illinois Congressman Richard Durbin recently compared American fighters to "Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime--Pol Pot or others--that had no concern for human beings." Durbin later apologized for the remarks but it is easy to understand his frustration at our behavior in Iraq.

In March, Iraqi civilians died at the rate of 75 day. While most of these deaths came at the hands of insurgents, it is clear that too many Iraqis also die from American atrocities. In war, where victory is measured by perception and attrition, America may have already lost.

"I think the calculation on the part of the insurgency now is that if this gets into a war of attrition and significant civil conflict, they've defeated the U.S. anyhow," said Anthony Cordesman, an expert on the Iraq conflict at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington.

The world has always had its dictators and many still exist today in places like North Korea and China. Even our so-called "allies" in the Middle East, like Saudi Arabia or Dubai, are nowhere near the kind of Western-style democracies the U.S. is trying to ram down Iraq's throats.

Iraq posed no immediate threat to the U.S. We know that now. I suspect our elected leaders knew it before the invasion but chose to withhold that information from the American people, Congress and our allies. Such conduct is considered criminal in most civilized societies but America ceased to be a civilized place a long time ago. A civilized society does not torture civilians or massacre women and children.

America is a bully, an international thug that uses fear, lies and deceit to advance the personal agendas of its leaders. Bullies do not deserve respect. Bullies do not deserve the benefit of the doubt. Bullies are beneath contempt.

Unfortunately, as long as Americans tolerate the despotic rule of George W. Bush, we share responsibility for the shame our leadership has brought upon a once-great nation called the United States of America.

Doug Thompson

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__Kratos__

Any sources for those stories, Sanjuro?

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Pedro

The funny thing is that there is loads of concentration camps where the innocent are held in.

And in the past 5 years I see no peace, this USA war will never end..

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...d+to+guantanamo

Greetings

i Beleive the Greed of America is never going to end but where is there Peace on here. :mellow: .?

Stay Blessed*

Pedro

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Sanjuro

Any sources for those stories, Sanjuro?

Read the damn thing! ;)

And Dahr Jamail is an independent journalist who spent over 8 months reporting from occupied Iraq. He presented evidence of US war crimes in Iraq at the International Commission of Inquiry on Crimes Against Humanity Committed by the Bush Administration in New York City in January 2006. He writes regularly for TruthOut, Inter Press Service, Asia Times and TomDispatch, and maintains his own web site, dahrjamailiraq.com

As well you can go to Iraq and ask to Iraqis about this violence..

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StalingradK
How Massacres Become the Norm

US soldiers killing innocent civilians in Iraq is not news. Just as it was not news that US soldiers slaughtered countless innocent civilians in Vietnam. However, when some rare reportage of this non news from Iraq does seep through the cracks of the corporate media, albeit briefly, the American public seems shocked. Private and public statements of denial and dismissal immediately start to fill the air. We hear, "American soldiers would never do such a thing," or "Who would make such a ridiculous claim?"

There's a bunch more but not necessary to re-post

I read the whole thing and it does not support your idiotic ideas that US soldiers are killing civilians just for fun. Like it says, this is a guerilla war and people on all side in the combat zones get killed. But guess what? For every 1 civilian occupation forces accidently kill, about 30 are killed from insurgents.

Also, some of those stories are BS. It's like you think we are there to kill innocents and rape the land but guess what? It's a desert where we only get 2% of our oil, would it really make sense to invade a country under the pre-tenses that we want more oil or that we need a new territory for the USA? Saddam and his regime was a threat to national and international security, but only we had the guts to go in which in turn helps everyone in the end.

In 1980, Ronald Reagan's chances to unseat Jimmy Carter improved dramatically when he asked one simple question of Americans during a debate: "Are you better off now then you were four years ago?"

With inflation running rampant, Americans held hostage in Iran and mortgage rates at 18 percent, the answer from the masses came back a resounding: "No!."

Today, if you asked the average Iraqi the same question you would get the same answer.

Four years ago, Iraqis enjoyed electricity in most of their homes, walked the streets of Baghdad without fear and, as long as they stayed out of the crosshairs of Saddam Hussein's campaign of terror, led relatively normal lives. More Americans, per capita, died from crime on our streets than from crime in Iraq.

Not so today. Fewer homes in Iraq have electrical power now than before the U.S. invasion in 2003. Iraqi civilians die on city streets daily, victims of a growing war between the occupying forces of the United States and the insurgents who are much better at waging war than American soldiers.

Lots a more text.

You keep saying "we" "we" "we" as in the US but guess what? If these insurgents used half of their brain and didn't think everyone was an infidel, they would figure out that we are trying to help the country of Iraq. We are rebuilding it piece by piece but does the media cover that? NO, they cover the tragedy of an Insurgent mortar hitting a bus full of people, or the collateral damage cause by US soldiers trying to protect Iraqi civilians instead of giving coverage on the schools and hospital being built.

I bet you think we should get the **** out of Iraq ASAP right? But guess what, any damage we or the insurgents cause, we must clean it up and re-build under UN rules.

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Sanjuro

I didnt say that US soldiers kill civilians JUST for fun, I mean they cant hold themselfs together they have lost true meaning of killing, they dont care anymore..they can kill peoples any day and act like nothing did not happen.

And about oil..you dont need to use the oil when you can sell it, guess who is controling Iraq oil now? Huh? Yes, thats right.. US. And its like long time insurance, you never know when you will need more.

US has plainted in their peoples (puppets) in Iraq goverment and Iraq is and will be under US control for a long time.

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Stellar

I didnt say that US soldiers kill civilians JUST for fun, I mean they cant hold themselfs together they have lost true meaning of killing, they dont care anymore..they can kill peoples any day and act like nothing did not happen.

BS. How would you know?

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Sanjuro

BS. How would you know?

Read the facts above.

And how would you know that its BS ?

Edited by Sanjuro

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Fluffybunny

BS. How would you know?

From unsubstantiated propaganda :tu:

The guy has made up his mind and no amount of discussion will alter the fact that in his mind US soldiers are mindless killers (even when people like myself with first hand experience-far above his own experience, tell him that he is not seeing the whole picture). Generalizing to such a degree simply shows how removed he is from the actual situation.

Do bad, horrible things happen? Of course they do...I hate that fact, and I hate the fact that we went into the damned country to begin with but the bottom line is that the overwhelming majority of the soldiers there are good honest people who feel like they are helping the good honest civilians in Iraq by stopping an enemy. To judge all soldiers and make horrible blanket statements about the actions of a few sick individuals is wrong and just as bad as condemning a race of people for the actions of a few.

I doubt Sanjuro has a perfect group of friends, family, and countrymen who have perfect records and have not made a mistake or done something regretable. No one has the ability to defend everyone in their country when they do something horrible and I would not try to do so in this case. That being said, the actions of a few do not display the actions of all and overwhelmingly the soldiers have been honorable in their actions under horrible conditions.

War is a horrible experience that I would never wish on anyone, but we are in the midst of it now and will be for some time to come. I don't try to defend the government for choosing to attack, I didn't agree with it in the first place, but I won't stand by and have someone who has never even met a soldier in Iraq spew such trash about something he has no idea about.

Sanjuros statements are no different than the racist redneck who goes on about how all blacks are criminals and hotler was right about the Jews. Anyone who gets to the extreme of painting an entire group of people they have not yet met with such a broad brush shows a serious judgement error in my opinion.

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Fluffybunny

Read the facts above.

And how would you know that its BS ?

I spent time there with the very soldiers you are condemning. How about you?

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