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Sanjuro

America’s Brutal Tactics

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Stellar

Read the facts above.

And how would you know that its BS ?

The facts above? The "facts" above are simply one guys outside interpretation of things. How do I know that its BS? Multiple reasons. Because the Canadian military training is very similar to the american one, and I know that that it doesnt make people heartless killers. Because a bunch of people I work with have gone overseas, and they arent heartless killers. Because a bunch of people I work with have worked with the US, and they describe them as standup troops. Because theres people here, like Fluffybunny, who have seen them firsthand. And finally, because I know you're full of bs and accept anything that portrays them in a bad light.

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Sanjuro

I spent time there with the very soldiers you are condemning. How about you?

It wasnt the Iraq war, it was operation desert storm, situation is a lot different , now soldiers must work with civilians, with different culture.

I am not saying that all US soldiers are mindless killers, but almost all of them have "lets kick ass and take names" american soldier attitude and it leads to path of killing and revenge.

Imagine - US soldier has lost his friend and now he is angry like hell - what he is going to do? He will go and beat up some locals or maybe even shot them in one of the raids and no one will ever bother. And dont say "punishments blahblah" , US leadership does everything to make them look good, they will never (unless its unavoidable) say "oh yeah, some soldiers killed civilians, but we punished them".

And the fact is that US war politics are amoral and no one can change it if everyone will keep supporting it like you guys do.

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Stellar

I am not saying that all US soldiers are mindless killers, but almost all of them have "lets kick ass and take names" american soldier attitude and it leads to path of killing and revenge.

Not at all. Yes, there are some soldiers that do have that "Lets kill" attitude, but thats not just in the US army. It is not the majority, and does not make them kill innocent people.

Imagine - US soldier has lost his friend and now he is angry like hell - what he is going to do? He will go and beat up some locals or maybe even shot them in one of the raids and no one will ever bother.

BS. No, he wont.

And dont say "punishments blahblah" , US leadership does everything to make them look good, they will never (unless its unavoidable) say "oh yeah, some soldiers killed civilians, but we punished them".

:rolleyes: Talking from experience, hmm?

And the fact is that US war politics are amoral and no one can change it if everyone will keep supporting it like you guys do.

US war politics? Amoral? Wtf are you talking about?

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Sanjuro

US war politics? Amoral? Wtf are you talking about?

For example..torture is allowed in US tactics.

And "no matter what you do you must reach the goal" tactics.

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Fluffybunny

Sanjuro, you keep making these huge assumptions about soldiers that you have never met. Don't you understand how wrong that is? How wrong you are about people you have never met but are so quick to condemn.

BTW, I was in iraq working with tens of thousands of POW's (in Iraq, near civilians) under the worst of circumstances. Sure people were frustrated and angry on both sides, but aside from the occasional fight, the processes the the Army set forth to control civilian injuries and deaths worked. Those same people I served with then are there now and have a better opinion of the situation than what we were experiencing then. I speak to them regularly and get first hand input from soldiers that are combat medics, infantry, support, engineers...from all aspects of the war.

Your rabid hate for the soldiers is obvious in your willingness to condemn them without knowing the situation. Your credibility goes out the window every time you make horrible generalizations about a situation you know nothing about.

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Stellar

For example..torture is allowed in US tactics.

What are you talking about? No it isnt.

And "no matter what you do you must reach the goal" tactics.

Not true. There are indeed limits to what can be done.

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twpdyp

It is my opinion, I can give no sources, that if we were to allow the warriors to fight the war the way they were trained to there would be considerably less collateral damage to civilians and to property. Like I said just an opinion based upon my years of working in an enviroment where when I am allowed to preform my job without the outside influences of others I preform much more effeciently. When those who may be my superiors in the company but are inferior to me in skill get involved all kinds of things go wrong. See my point? Political correctness is going to kill us all, and is this not about that very thing.

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RamboIII

The facts above? The "facts" above are simply one guys outside interpretation of things. How do I know that its BS? Multiple reasons. Because the Canadian military training is very similar to the american one, and I know that that it doesnt make people heartless killers. Because a bunch of people I work with have gone overseas, and they arent heartless killers. Because a bunch of people I work with have worked with the US, and they describe them as standup troops. Because theres people here, like Fluffybunny, who have seen them firsthand. And finally, because I know you're full of bs and accept anything that portrays them in a bad light.

<EDITED> Soldiers are SUPPOSED to be heartless killers! what do you think it takes to kill someone? you cant have a heart and kill someone. you really need to join the army, any army, yes even the canadian and you will see that ALL soldiers (good ones anyway) are heartless. If you can prove that Canadians arent heartless killers then that just shows why we control the world and they dont. America has the best training programs and best tactics in the world. Dont disagree with what you dont know

Rambo, read my PM

-UA

Edited by UniversalAbsurdity

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Stellar

<EDITED>. Soldiers are SUPPOSED to be heartless killers!

:rolleyes:<EDITED>. Soldiers are supposed to kill the enemy. It doesnt take someone heartless to kill the enemy. Soldiers arent supposed to kill innocent people, and every soldier that has the desire to protect these innocent people can not be classified as heartless. You're the idiot if you want to argue over something as simple as this.

you cant have a heart and kill someone.

:rolleyes: No, you definitly cant kill the enemy, even if its to protect someone else, unless you dont have a heart. :rolleyes:

you really need to join the army, any army, yes even the canadian and you will see that ALL soldiers (good ones anyway) are heartless.

For ****s sake man, where have you been? I HAVE joined the canadian army.

If you can prove that Canadians arent heartless killers then that just shows why we control the world and they dont.

:rolleyes: Your stupidity astounds me. Maybe you're right. Maybe the US soldiers are all heartless, and stuff like Abu Graib is happening everywhere. That makes you barbaric.

I'll stick to reality though. Soldiers (good ones) arent heartless. They set aside any emotion necessary to accomplish their mission, but the very fact that they have emotion to set aside denies the notion that they're heartless.

America has the best training programs and best tactics in the world. Dont disagree with what you dont know

And theres the arrogance once again. Best training programs and best tactics in the world. :rolleyes: I'm sure thats an informed and objective opinion. :rolleyes:

I wonder, Fluffybunny: Were you heartless? Didnt give a sh** about innocent lives?

Edit: Its funny that your name is Rambo. You're nothing more than a BUD/s washout who didnt have what it takes. You know why you washed out? Most likely because of the very Rambo-esque ideas and attitude you have on the whole subject. The military is not looking for a Rambo.

Edited by UniversalAbsurdity

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RamboIII

why do i even bother? i have joined the much better American army back in my heyday. There is no way you can have a heart and kill someone! Fine, maybe the damn Canadian's have hearts but they are a worthless fighting force. Sure they provide some assistance but you CAN NOT say that they are better then the US. Ask anyone who has joined the Army if you can have a heart and still kill someone. You are an ignorant fool, and Abu Graib is NOTHING compared to what other countries (not terrorists) do to our troops, but we suck it up because we have no hearts.

it is also WIDELY accepted that the US has the best training program in the WORLD. Do not even try to say that the British have a better one...

Edited by RamboIII

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Stellar

i have joined the much better American army back in my heyday.

Ahh, theres more of the chest pounding. What? You seem more eager to convince YOURSELF of that than anyone else. Everyone else can simply see that you're letting your patriotism cloud your judgement and make ignorant unsubstantiated and subjective statements. You probably realise this aswell, but dont want to accept it.

You joined the American army, hmm? I thought you said you were in the navy? Perhaps you're nothing more than a poser?

There is no way you can have a heart and kill someone!

Indeed you can, when you have ample moral reason to do so.

Fine, maybe the damn Canadian's have hearts but they are a worthless fighting force.

Ahh, more of the chest pounding. Worthless fighting force? We've been fighting much longer than you have in the major wars, and if you'd know anything about world issues, you'd know that we're currently in command in Afghanistan... commanding US forces as well, might I add. In military exercises, I seem to remember that Canada and the US are tied in an annual tank competition so far, and I still vividly remember that 2 years ago, India company, part of the 33 light infantry battalion, managed to take over a fortified US position in Ex Stalwart Guardian. So much for a worthless fighting force... :rolleyes:

Sure they provide some assistance but you CAN NOT say that they are better then the US.

Better in what way? Why cant we?

Ask anyone who has joined the Army if you can have a heart and still kill someone

Sure have. Guess what the answer was?

You are an ignorant fool, and Abu Graib is NOTHING compared to what other countries (not terrorists) do to our troops, but we suck it up because we have no hearts.

It doesnt matter what other countries do. Thats not justification. The true reason that Abu Graib doesnt happen every day all day is that soldiers, the vast majority, are not heartless.

it is also WIDELY accepted that the US has the best training program in the WORLD.

Really? By who?

Do not even try to say that the British have a better one...

Why not?

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RamboIII

ok i said i went through SEAL training after serving in the army then the Navy so yes i was in the Navy. And i am not even going to continue this discussion with you. It is widely accepted by many people, no one in particular, that we have the best training programs. FYI When i say heartless i am referring to in the heat of battle, and i do not mean literally they do not have a heart...

stellar, its good to see you went to the Mods for help, without being able to win an argument on your own...

Edited by RamboIII

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Fluffybunny
wonder, Fluffybunny: Were you heartless? Didnt give a sh** about innocent lives?

Yes, that was me. Heartless ol' Fluffybunny. Killed 'em rather than look at 'em. Let god sort em out kinda guy.

Have to be heartless? :rolleyes: Somebody has been watching a little too much TV. Rambo was fictional and so is the attitude that soldiers are heartless killers. It just doesn't work that way no matter how much Hollywood tells you different.

There is every kind of soldier, just like there is every type of civilian. Some are jerks, some are heartless, some are criminals, most are good. Most are just regular guys trying to do the right thing.

I served with soldiers from all over the world. The Canadians and the Brits were incredibly well trained and disciplined, no doubt about it; I got along with them well and enjoyed working with them. Does the US have more money invested in it's training? yes. Does that make the US soldiers better, not necessarily. US soldiers have a tendancy to go through training and assume they are the best and not put the constant effort to better themselves as soldiers as I have seen in the Brits and Canadians. They had educated soldiers that continued to study for years after training to better themselves...Not always the case in the US.

Don't assume that the US military is so much better than the other allies, because in manysituations that is not the case. We have allies that have done more with a lot less for decades now and don't rely on the technology that we have become accustomed to.

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Stellar

ok i said i went through SEAL training after serving in the army then the Navy so yes i was in the Navy.

No, you didnt say that. And no, you didnt go through SEAL training, you washed out, remember?

It is widely accepted by many people, no one in particular, that we have the best training programs.

By who, hmm? Wheres the supporting evidence?

FYI When i say heartless i am referring to in the heat of battle, and i do not mean literally they do not have a heart...

Im well aware of that, and I am referring to the same.

Yes, that was me. Heartless ol' Fluffybunny. Killed 'em rather than look at 'em. Let god sort em out kinda guy.

Lol, thats what I thought :P

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supercar

For example..torture is allowed in US tactics.

No it isn't. Just because a few soldiers engaged in torture does not mean it is 'allowed in US tactics'.

Just because a few of your fellow citizens of Latvia killed 26,000 Jews in WW2,does not mean everyone in Latvia is a Nazi and hates Jews.

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RamboIII

No, you didnt say that. And no, you didnt go through SEAL training, you washed out, remember?

going through one day is still going through it (i went weeks) and i would like to see you go for 5 days. In fact, i would like to see the best soldier in the Candian armu make it through the whole thing... not possible

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Stellar

going through one day is still going through it

No its not. You dropped out. You dont even have the honesty to admit that you couldnt cut it, you have to pretend like it was some great feat.

and i would like to see you go for 5 days.

So would I.

In fact, i would like to see the best soldier in the Candian armu make it through the whole thing... not possible

Oh no? Why not?

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KingTomis

Yeah, let me guess, you ALMOST made it to be part of SEAL Team 6.

Rambo, your full of BS, post up or shut up. Lets see some credentials.

You know how many retards go around the internet pretending to be SEALS, or in your case washouts?

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british_patriot

If you wanna ask what going through the sh** is ask XSAS.

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dnb420

Original Topic

US Deserter 'Shocked by Abuses'

BBC

Friday 31 March 2006

A US soldier who fled to Canada to avoid serving in Iraq says he was shocked by alleged atrocities committed by the American military. Josh Key was speaking before Canada's refugee board hearing his asylum plea.

Among the incidents, he described soldiers kicking the severed head of an Iraqi like a football in Ramadi.

Mr. Key served as an explosives expert in Iraq for eight months, and deserted to Canada with his family in 2004. He faces a court martial back in the US.

The soldier, 27, also told Canada's refugee board he saw a US army squad leader shooting the foot off an unarmed Iraqi man.

The army's attitude in Iraq was "just shoot and ask questions later", Mr. Key said.

Appeal

Mr. Key says he refuses to fight in a war he regards as immoral and illegal.

About 20 US soldiers have applied for asylum in Canada. Two have already had their applications rejected.

The Immigration and Refugee Board said it was not convinced the men would face persecution if they were sent back to the US. They have said they will appeal against the decision.

Speaking to the BBC, Mr. Key said he was in Iraq when he realized the war was unjustified.

"The only people that were getting hurt was the innocent; that was innocent Iraqi people, as well as innocent soldiers."

On his return to the US, he told the army that he did not want to return, but was advised that he would face prison if he refused. It was then that he decided to desert.

"Before I went to Iraq, I was trained on how to escape terrorists. You learn to only go where crime is already at. You only go somewhere where who cares about a deserter if somebody is getting murdered every night. I went to Philadelphia," he said.

He spent 14 months in the city, before deciding to flee to Canada.

During the Vietnam war, more than 100,000 Americans went to the neighbor country to avoid the draft.

Source

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RedEyeJedi
1Alchemy

Wow...now "they" are the brave people...those who would com foreward and speak the truth

It all will come out...the truth always does.

Edited by alchemistic

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Sanjuro

Right on. :tu:

They are brave, but mindless patriots treat them like they are cowards or traitors and want them in jail. :hmm:

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Iilaa'mpuul'xem

<EDITED> Soldiers are SUPPOSED to be heartless killers! what do you think it takes to kill someone? you cant have a heart and kill someone. you really need to join the army, any army, yes even the canadian and you will see that ALL soldiers (good ones anyway) are heartless. If you can prove that Canadians arent heartless killers then that just shows why we control the world and they dont. America has the best training programs and best tactics in the world. Dont disagree with what you dont know

Rambo, read my PM

-UA

I don't think I have read so much dribble on one thread as I have on this one... I am surprized Fluffy has kept his calm while posting here... "Heartless killers"..... and there's me a loving and doting Dad and husband thinking I have a place booked in heaven, I guess I was wrong, I better start learning to walk on hot coals.

I love arm chair soldiers they talk complete and utter rubbish... the worrying thing is, they actually believe it.

Edited by XSAS

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PadawanOsswe

the troops have not been commiting atrocities. and if there have been a select few who have commited war crimes. then may they face the firing squad!

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