Exorcism

[Azalin]

Demonic Possession

After creating my post on Demonology, I had a number of responses about it, and also, people looking towards information on Demonic Possession. I thought I would give some information regarding this paranormal event as well.

Demonic Possession was thought possible when Jesus exorcised a demon by the name of Legion by the Dead Sea. Since this event, The catholic church believed it was possible to have God, and his son to work through us directly. However before the christians, demonic possession was still around in ancient civilizations such as the Sumerians, and the Chaldeans. Instead of "exorcists" they had shamans or witch doctors, the same as some modern day indian tribes as well.

( How these people performed their exorcisms will be detailed on my "exorcist" write up ")

However, like demonology, the thought of demonic possession became part of everyday christian religion and practices since it was introduced in the bible. The thought of getting possessed could happen to anyone, including animals. In the 4th century, St.Hillary was the first to introduce the idea that demons in fact use our bodies to their own bidding. It was not until later, the 5th century, that the actual list of demonically possessed symptoms were available. It was Pope Gregory the 1st that studied demonology, as well as demonic possession, and became quite knowledgable in both fields. The symptoms he described are the following.

- The ability to speak and/or understand one or more unknown languages.

- The ability to find secret things, read the mind, and divine future happenings.

- The ability to make physical efforts abnormal for that person.

- The act of spitting or vomiting every object the demons would have made the person swallow.

( This list would not be updated, or changed until Pope John Paul 2nd, I will set the changes in the " Exorcism " review. )

Ways of getting possessed can vary. The biggest thought about way to get possessed is too summon a demon, and evoking the spells, as through demonology, or too use a Ouija Board to summon a spirit. Other ways the church believes are the use of

- Drugs, alcohol, pornography, demonic rituals, witch sabbaths, and oaths with the devil.

Doing all of these in abundance, can bring upon demonic influence, and if the time is right, perhaps possession if the entity can gain entry. There are two terms when dealing with possession. There is

- Perfect Possession ( other names as well ) , and Demonic Possession.

Perfect possession is someone that is not quite demonically possessed, because he does not need to be. A murderer, drug dealer, rapist, someone that that does not need a possessed spirit within them to partake in the blasphemies of the church. These people cannot be exorcised, but they can be taught, and can eventually change with the help of gods grace and forgiveness.

Demonic Possession is exactly what the term describes. The direct possessing of a demon to have to commit involuntary acts to hurt yourself/ others.

One of the biggest misconceptions I have found with demonic possession, is the fact that only religious people can be possessed. This is false. However, when an atheist is possessed they will of course blame the above symptoms on a medical condition, and in many times, they are right in doing so. Demonic Possession is still around us, but only 10% or less of people that claim to be possessed are actually possessed. Science believes they can fix any mental illness with medicine, as God or Satan have never been proven to exist, but it's not the case. Stated above 90% of people have been cured with modern medicine, but there is a small number worldwide that still suffers greatly, and in some cases, have actually been advised by specific doctors to see a " witch doctor" or an " exorcist ".

My main argument with Demonic Possession is that exorcisms work. They have in the past, and lately, the church has been re-cruiting a larger number of them in order to fight a sudden increase in demonic activity. Exorcists are not doctors, and they do not provide there possessed victims any type of medicine, however, they still receive results. If demonic possession was a sudden case of chemical imbalance within the brain, no amount of praying or sprinkling of holy water would have an effect on the victim. However, in Exorcisms recorded in Rome, Italy, Africa, and in North America, people have become healed from their demonic symptoms from participating in this ritual. If it was a mere mental illness, a chemical imbalance with the brain, none of this would of helped, you would need a drug to counter-act the brains toxins to help the victim to became sane.

Demonic Possession of course go's hand in hand with exorcism. I will give another thread about this shortly when I gather more time. Once again, if anyone has any comments, or concerns regarding this information, feel free to contact me, or respond to this thread.

God Bless, Azalin

[Fluffybunny]

In my opinion "Demonic Possession is nothing more that undiagnosed psychological issues... Schizophrenia comes to mind, although there are other conditions that are possibilities...The symptoms of schizophrenia are very similar to classic signs of possession, and in case after case medication and therapy take care of problems in very short order.

There was a time before modern medical research where I could understand where people suffering from nervous tics, epilepsy or Tourettes Syndrome could be seen as being possessed, but as medical science advances and can treat more and more conditions succesfully I just don't see how people can see conditions that are being treated with medicines and still see them as being possessed.

It makes for great fiction and good movies, but in my opinion nothing more.

[CharmedFan3]

In my opinion "Demonic Possession is nothing more that undiagnosed psychological issues... Schizophrenia comes to mind, although there are other conditions that are possibilities...The symptoms of schizophrenia are very similar to classic signs of possession, and in case after case medication and therapy take care of problems in very short order.

There was a time before modern medical research where I could understand where people suffering from nervous tics, epilepsy or Tourettes Syndrome could be seen as being possessed, but as medical science advances and can treat more and more conditions succesfully I just don't see how people can see conditions that are being treated with medicines and still see them as being possessed.

It makes for great fiction and good movies, but in my opinion nothing more.

I couldnt agree more.

[aquatus1]

I have yet to see or read a professionally documented case of possession that does not meet all the earmarks of extreme obsessive disorder.

[Paranormalcy]

And additionally, while I'm skeptical on possession as being truly an external entity dominating someone's will, I do believe there are some scientifically unexplainable things in the universe, such as the human mind and body's ability to perform "miracles", such as extreme examples of the "placebo" effect, where someone takes something they are convinced is medicine or a "cure" for an affliction, and although there is no medical or scientific reason for this to work, it does - the power of suggestion, of self-suggestion, is tremendous - allowing for the possibility of stigmata, self-created possession and "curing" by exorcism, etc.

[Boltwave]

Demonic Possession

After creating my post on Demonology, I had a number of responses about it, and also, people looking towards information on Demonic Possession. I thought I would give some information regarding this paranormal event as well.

Demonic Possession was thought possible when Jesus exorcised a demon by the name of Legion by the Dead Sea. Since this event, The catholic church believed it was possible to have God, and his son to work through us directly. However before the christians, demonic possession was still around in ancient civilizations such as the Sumerians, and the Chaldeans. Instead of "exorcists" they had shamans or witch doctors, the same as some modern day indian tribes as well.

( How these people performed their exorcisms will be detailed on my "exorcist" write up ")

However, like demonology, the thought of demonic possession became part of everyday christian religion and practices since it was introduced in the bible. The thought of getting possessed could happen to anyone, including animals. In the 4th century, St.Hillary was the first to introduce the idea that demons in fact use our bodies to their own bidding. It was not until later, the 5th century, that the actual list of demonically possessed symptoms were available. It was Pope Gregory the 1st that studied demonology, as well as demonic possession, and became quite knowledgable in both fields. The symptoms he described are the following.

- The ability to speak and/or understand one or more unknown languages.

- The ability to find secret things, read the mind, and divine future happenings.

- The ability to make physical efforts abnormal for that person.

- The act of spitting or vomiting every object the demons would have made the person swallow.

( This list would not be updated, or changed until Pope John Paul 2nd, I will set the changes in the " Exorcism " review. )

Ways of getting possessed can vary. The biggest thought about way to get possessed is too summon a demon, and evoking the spells, as through demonology, or too use a Ouija Board to summon a spirit. Other ways the church believes are the use of

- Drugs, alcohol, pornography, demonic rituals, witch sabbaths, and oaths with the devil.

Doing all of these in abundance, can bring upon demonic influence, and if the time is right, perhaps possession if the entity can gain entry. There are two terms when dealing with possession. There is

- Perfect Possession ( other names as well ) , and Demonic Possession.

Perfect possession is someone that is not quite demonically possessed, because he does not need to be. A murderer, drug dealer, rapist, someone that that does not need a possessed spirit within them to partake in the blasphemies of the church. These people cannot be exorcised, but they can be taught, and can eventually change with the help of gods grace and forgiveness.

Demonic Possession is exactly what the term describes. The direct possessing of a demon to have to commit involuntary acts to hurt yourself/ others.

One of the biggest misconceptions I have found with demonic possession, is the fact that only religious people can be possessed. This is false. However, when an atheist is possessed they will of course blame the above symptoms on a medical condition, and in many times, they are right in doing so. Demonic Possession is still around us, but only 10% or less of people that claim to be possessed are actually possessed. Science believes they can fix any mental illness with medicine, as God or Satan have never been proven to exist, but it's not the case. Stated above 90% of people have been cured with modern medicine, but there is a small number worldwide that still suffers greatly, and in some cases, have actually been advised by specific doctors to see a " witch doctor" or an " exorcist ".

My main argument with Demonic Possession is that exorcisms work. They have in the past, and lately, the church has been re-cruiting a larger number of them in order to fight a sudden increase in demonic activity. Exorcists are not doctors, and they do not provide there possessed victims any type of medicine, however, they still receive results. If demonic possession was a sudden case of chemical imbalance within the brain, no amount of praying or sprinkling of holy water would have an effect on the victim. However, in Exorcisms recorded in Rome, Italy, Africa, and in North America, people have become healed from their demonic symptoms from participating in this ritual. If it was a mere mental illness, a chemical imbalance with the brain, none of this would of helped, you would need a drug to counter-act the brains toxins to help the victim to became sane.

Demonic Possession of course go's hand in hand with exorcism. I will give another thread about this shortly when I gather more time. Once again, if anyone has any comments, or concerns regarding this information, feel free to contact me, or respond to this thread.

God Bless, Azalin

I agree, I also believe the rise of demonic activity is at hand, we are getting more and more people coming into this forum reporting their incidences, and others I've personally spoke with have had unexplainable symptons occur, demons exist, that is the bottom line.

[Azalin]

I agree, I also believe the rise of demonic activity is at hand, we are getting more and more people coming into this forum reporting their incidences, and others I've personally spoke with have had unexplainable symptons occur, demons exist, that is the bottom line.

Thank you boltwave.

Im sorry for the above responses, and I appreciate the remarks, however, I hope I can leave this dis-cussion as far out of a debate as possible. No one in here can say Demonic Possession is not true, and no one can say it is. So instead of having a roller coaster conversation, I'd really enjoy to leave it at that. There are a lot of people on these boards that ask about these questions, and I enjoy doing these write up's to help educate certain people, without them having to waste their time and cross referencing everything they read. If you want to debate demonic possession versus science and medicine, I ask please, make that thread, I'd like too keep this one based towards information on this topic.

[Paranormalcy]

Well, you have my apologies for "threadcrapping" - I wasn't really aware quite what you were going for with the topic but I had no intention of being rude or disruptive.

I agree possession exists, though the semantics and underlying causes are things I'm sure we do not see eye-to-eye on.

So, staying in line with your belief set, what are your thoughts on the reasons for these possessions, of only some people - certainly not enough people to make any real "dent" in the population as a whole. And what indications do these possessions seem to have, if there is perhaps an overarcing intent? If you agree that possessions seem to be becoming more "commonplace", why would you say that is, and what does it mean?

[Oubli]

Perfect possession is someone that is not quite demonically possessed, because he does not need to be. A murderer, drug dealer, rapist, someone that that does not need a possessed spirit within them to partake in the blasphemies of the church. These people cannot be exorcised, but they can be taught, and can eventually change with the help of gods grace and forgiveness.

So, why is it then called Perfect Possession? Because they are not actually possessed and the demon does not have to actually do any work? So, was it their free-will that led them to do the things they do, or seeds planted by demons?

What exactly about an exorcism works? Why do some work and not others? Could those that do not work be mental illness?

Interesting thread, thanks Azalin.

[Fluffybunny]

I hope I can leave this dis-cussion as far out of a debate as possible

If you did not wish to discuss the matter, why post this thread? If you post your "Professional Outlook" how is it that others cannot discuss their own outlook?

The entire concept of a forum is discussion...

Edited December 28, 2005 by Fluffybunny

[Yelekiah]

So, why is it then called Perfect Possession? Because they are not actually possessed and the demon does not have to actually do any work?

I thought perfect possession meant you were "perfectly possessed" by the devil, for example. There wouldn't be spinning heads or the use of expletives.

[Oubli]

I thought perfect possession meant you were "perfectly possessed" by the devil, for example. There wouldn't be spinning heads or the use of expletives.

So did I, but if I read the post correctly, it is someone who is not possessed, because they are already performing acts against God.... Did I read that right?

[Yelekiah]

I read a book about it...but I'm sure Azalin will call it bs...In fact I'm willing to bet money on it

edit: Yep, Malachi Martin wrote about it.

"...those who are perfectly possessed and

function normally in society and that they have ho affect when

encountering blessings or holy water and such and as a result cannot

be exorcised..."

That's what someone mentioned about it. But it sounds far-fetched.

Edited December 28, 2005 by Yelekiah

[Boltwave]

In my opinion "Demonic Possession is nothing more that undiagnosed psychological issues... Schizophrenia comes to mind, although there are other conditions that are possibilities...The symptoms of schizophrenia are very similar to classic signs of possession, and in case after case medication and therapy take care of problems in very short order.

There was a time before modern medical research where I could understand where people suffering from nervous tics, epilepsy or Tourettes Syndrome could be seen as being possessed, but as medical science advances and can treat more and more conditions succesfully I just don't see how people can see conditions that are being treated with medicines and still see them as being possessed.

It makes for great fiction and good movies, but in my opinion nothing more.

That's very rational thinking, but I think we have all heard enough about schizophrenia for one day, obvisouly it's a condition in the brain, obvisouly it can be cured by all medical means. We all know that tourettes and epilepsy aren't sure cases of possession, there is so much more than extends beyond just having seizures and convulsions here and there.

Really, possession comes down to what the symptons are showing, for instance, tourettes and epilepsy are neurological disorders, not mental illness, therefore they are physical, and if such symptons like seizures where to occur, and let's say a priest touches the person with holy water, and yet the person seems to contort itself in violent and strange physical positions of the body, or if the person reacts at all to any sort of action going on while the person suffering the seizures is out of their mental state, how is it possible for them become active with their enviroment, isn't a seizure where the brain loses activity for short periods of time?

Same thing goes for dissasociative disorder, either, the person suffering is either lying and playing a hoax or they are suffering from terrible and tragic afflictions which could be the doing of supernatural and dark activities.

[Oubli]

Boltwave,

Not to go off topic here, but there is no cure for schizophrenia and some never respond to medication and therefore there is a need for constant 24-hour care.

As for seizures, the brain does not lose activity for short periods of time. Actually, your brain starts sending uncoordinated electrical discharges throughout your brain. This can happen with normal or abnormal brain cells. There really is not clear-cut reason why.

You can be aware of your surroundings when this happens and not know what is happening, it can be a very frightening experience.

Also, there are probably quite a few kids out there diagnosed with attention deficit disorder, that actually have "silent seizures". You can have them several times throughout the day and not know it, all the while, people just think you are daydreaming.

While there are cases of possession out there, like Azalin stated 90% can probably be explained medically. There is still so much we do not know about how our brains work.

But I agree, it is not what this thread is about.

Edited December 28, 2005 by amybutts

[Boltwave]

Boltwave,

Not to go off topic here, but there is no cure for schizophrenia and some never respond to medication and therefore there is a need for constant 24-hour care.

As for seizures, the brain does not lose activity for short periods of time. Actually, your brain starts sending uncoordinated electrical discharges throughout your brain. This can happen with normal or abnormal brain cells. There really is not clear-cut reason why.

You can be aware of your surroundings when this happens and not know what is happening, it can be a very frightening experience.

Also, there are probably quite a few kids out there diagnosed with attention deficit disorder, that actually have "silent seizures". You can have them several times throughout the day and not know it, all the while, people just think you are daydreaming.

While there are cases of possession out there, like Azalin stated 90% can probably be explained medically. There is still so much we do not know about how our brains work.

But I agree, it is not what this thread is about.

Hmmmm........that is true I guess, thank you for sharing your opinions

[Azalin]

I read a book about it...but I'm sure Azalin will call it bs...In fact I'm willing to bet money on it

edit: Yep, Malachi Martin wrote about it.

"...those who are perfectly possessed and

function normally in society and that they have ho affect when

encountering blessings or holy water and such and as a result cannot

be exorcised..."

That's what someone mentioned about it. But it sounds far-fetched.

I have 2 books by Malachi Martin, and his co-writer The psychologist Scott.M Peck. Scott Peck was a psychologist of 20 years, when he met Malachi after reading one of his books, and asked why after 20 years of dealing with patients, he never seen 1 account of demonic possession. Malachi then sent him some people that were sent to him for demonic possession, and in the book " Glimpses of the Devil ", Scott Peck talks about how he is forced to become an exorcist to save his patients. All in all lol, the book is BS. He starts the book by listing all these things you need to do in order to beat the devil out of someone through an exorcism, then in the end, he walks all over his steps. He more or less wings every exorcism that he does, and it just is not believable in the slightest. For instance, he lists that you should never talk to the devil, or try to have a conversation with it, which, is true. Yet, at the end, he's talking to his " SATANICALLY possessed" ( because he doesn't think hes dealing with just a devil, every patient he gets is possessed by SATAN, not just a devil" ) and he outsmarts him everytime. I hope that he just exaggerated his book a little bit, might be a bit more beleivable from an exorcism standpoint then, but it's all hard to stomach for myself.

However Father Malachi was quite the person himself. He was ordained a Jesuit, one of the highest orders of the church, and wrote several books like the one I believe you read Yelekiah " Hostage to the Devil ". What he was referring to as Perfect Possession is what I was relaying. Someone that is perfectly possessed cannot be exorcised, only taught, and can be persuaded away from that sinful lifestyle. What it's really saying, is that certain people have been abused through their entire life, lived life on the streets, or lived in households of severe abuse grow up to this lifestyle. It's not so much their fault, but through all of the sin that has happened to them, they slowly begin to let it all in, and actually believe, this is what life is all about, and start to live under that hypnosis. These are people that cannot benefit from a exorcism, but will benefit greatly from a psychologist, or a priest that can help enlighten them. Father Malachi was said to have a number of affairs with his wife, and many priests tried to kick him out of of his priesthood, but the pope never turned his back on him. The main reason being, there is corruption in the church, that is a fact, and he wrote a book about it called " Clerical Error ", which talks about some of the things the church does. Because of this, they tried to get rid of him, and made rumors he cheated on his wife, and so fourth, however, the pope understanding what he was trying to bring to light kept him within the church, as surely, the pope would not be corrupt.

[FrankBlunt]

I have 2 books by Malachi Martin, and his co-writer The psychologist Scott.M Peck.

One question, Azalin. And I won't answer this one as I so often do:

If your child was being verbally abused by the strictest of math professors, would you storm into the school, demanding to meet this gym teacher when there's no athletic program at the school?

[Azalin]

One question, Azalin. And I won't answer this one as I so often do:

If your child was being verbally abused by the strictest of math professors, would you storm into the school, demanding to meet this gym teacher when there's no athletic program at the school?

Im sorry, could you rephrase the question ?...

[FrankBlunt]

Im sorry, could you rephrase the question ?...

I really hate to do this to you, Azalin, and to everyone else like myself who enjoys a challenging riddle. And please, find it in your heart to forgive yourself for the way you've been frightening everyone.

Student = possession victim

Math professor = ill-intentioned spirit

School = house

Gym teacher = Devil

Athletic program = Hell

[isis-999]

I think that many time's the person in question may have mental problem's, There is that one or two percent who is really over taking with some type od demonic influence...

[vampirate]

I don't think Azalin is scaring anybody. I'm sorry Frankblunt, but i'm not sure what it is you're saying. Are you saying that Possesion does not exsist? Or that possesion has nothing to do with the Devil?

If possesion does not exsist, how would you explain the fact that after a succesful exorsism the victim often referes to the Arch angel Michael banishing the demon, even though more often then not the victim had never heard of this phenomena?

(I think i got that right? )

Could it be explained as some kind of hallucination? If so, then caused by what? and why would the hallucination be the same for each victim?

Anyway, this topic is in no way frightening to me, just interesting

[Rosemary Campbell]

Demonic Possession

After creating my post on Demonology, I had a number of responses about it, and also, people looking towards information on Demonic Possession. I thought I would give some information regarding this paranormal event as well.

Demonic Possession was thought possible when Jesus exorcised a demon by the name of Legion by the Dead Sea. Since this event, The catholic church believed it was possible to have God, and his son to work through us directly. However before the christians, demonic possession was still around in ancient civilizations such as the Sumerians, and the Chaldeans. Instead of "exorcists" they had shamans or witch doctors, the same as some modern day indian tribes as well.

( How these people performed their exorcisms will be detailed on my "exorcist" write up ")

However, like demonology, the thought of demonic possession became part of everyday christian religion and practices since it was introduced in the bible. The thought of getting possessed could happen to anyone, including animals. In the 4th century, St.Hillary was the first to introduce the idea that demons in fact use our bodies to their own bidding. It was not until later, the 5th century, that the actual list of demonically possessed symptoms were available. It was Pope Gregory the 1st that studied demonology, as well as demonic possession, and became quite knowledgable in both fields. The symptoms he described are the following.

- The ability to speak and/or understand one or more unknown languages.

- The ability to find secret things, read the mind, and divine future happenings.

- The ability to make physical efforts abnormal for that person.

- The act of spitting or vomiting every object the demons would have made the person swallow.

( This list would not be updated, or changed until Pope John Paul 2nd, I will set the changes in the " Exorcism " review. )

Ways of getting possessed can vary. The biggest thought about way to get possessed is too summon a demon, and evoking the spells, as through demonology, or too use a Ouija Board to summon a spirit. Other ways the church believes are the use of

- Drugs, alcohol, pornography, demonic rituals, witch sabbaths, and oaths with the devil.

Doing all of these in abundance, can bring upon demonic influence, and if the time is right, perhaps possession if the entity can gain entry. There are two terms when dealing with possession. There is

- Perfect Possession ( other names as well ) , and Demonic Possession.

Perfect possession is someone that is not quite demonically possessed, because he does not need to be. A murderer, drug dealer, rapist, someone that that does not need a possessed spirit within them to partake in the blasphemies of the church. These people cannot be exorcised, but they can be taught, and can eventually change with the help of gods grace and forgiveness.

Demonic Possession is exactly what the term describes. The direct possessing of a demon to have to commit involuntary acts to hurt yourself/ others.

One of the biggest misconceptions I have found with demonic possession, is the fact that only religious people can be possessed. This is false. However, when an atheist is possessed they will of course blame the above symptoms on a medical condition, and in many times, they are right in doing so. Demonic Possession is still around us, but only 10% or less of people that claim to be possessed are actually possessed. Science believes they can fix any mental illness with medicine, as God or Satan have never been proven to exist, but it's not the case. Stated above 90% of people have been cured with modern medicine, but there is a small number worldwide that still suffers greatly, and in some cases, have actually been advised by specific doctors to see a " witch doctor" or an " exorcist ".

My main argument with Demonic Possession is that exorcisms work. They have in the past, and lately, the church has been re-cruiting a larger number of them in order to fight a sudden increase in demonic activity. Exorcists are not doctors, and they do not provide there possessed victims any type of medicine, however, they still receive results. If demonic possession was a sudden case of chemical imbalance within the brain, no amount of praying or sprinkling of holy water would have an effect on the victim. However, in Exorcisms recorded in Rome, Italy, Africa, and in North America, people have become healed from their demonic symptoms from participating in this ritual. If it was a mere mental illness, a chemical imbalance with the brain, none of this would of helped, you would need a drug to counter-act the brains toxins to help the victim to became sane.

Demonic Possession of course go's hand in hand with exorcism. I will give another thread about this shortly when I gather more time. Once again, if anyone has any comments, or concerns regarding this information, feel free to contact me, or respond to this thread.

God Bless, Azalin

Thank you for starting this thread, I believe its written with much Knowledge and I feel it will be helpful, and no matter what many think about Possessions not being real I think you and I and many others know that it is real, and if it wasn't the Vatican wouldn't have priests doint the Exorcisms if there wasn't a reason to do so.

I look forward to other things you write as a Former Priest, and while at times I disagree with some of the things you write especially, since you don't believe that I have a possession problem, I am still happy that you are writing like this because I feel with your background and knowledge it will be helpful to others.

Its very difficult for most people to believe in Possessions, and Exorcisms and unless they actually experience these things themselves, some people may never believe, but I know first hand they are true, and I encourage you to keep writing about your experiences because I find it very helpful.

Even as I write here the four Possessing Spirits try to prevent me from writing my thoughts smoothly and so even writing this much is a real Struggle for me especially when people keep reading my posts and telling me I am not possessed and I need a Therapist.

You can't judge a person until you have walked a mile in their shoes.

[BigDaddy_GFS]

As always, Azalin, you give insightful commentary, and tons of useful info. I wish I had guys like you on my site.

They would gobble up your essays like this.

[dindwyder]

i still want more information. how can demons cross over into our dimension. and how many dimensions r there?