Germany accused of paying large ransom

[Celumnaz]

When was that?

[Avinash_Tyagi]

When was that?

After we went along with international law

[Celumnaz]

Oh, yeah... the one sided contract again. http://untreaty.un.org/ENGLISH/bible/engli...IV/treaty14.asp

Where's Iran?

[Avinash_Tyagi]

Where's Iran?

So you're comparing us to Iran? i thought the US was supposed to be a shining beacon for the world and you're comparing us to Iran

[Celumnaz]

eh? It's a question. The whole world doesn't just consist of the US and Germany, right? If we're held to a standard, then the rest of the nations on that list should be too (and they're not, and I don't hear diddly about it) and other nations not on it well...

What do you do when all parties are not abiding by a contract? Does that make the contract valid or invalid?

[Avinash_Tyagi]

eh? It's a question. The whole world doesn't just consist of the US and Germany, right? If we're held to a standard, then the rest of the nations on that list should be too (and they're not, and I don't hear diddly about it) and other nations not on it well...

What do you do when all parties are not abiding by a contract? Does that make the contract valid or invalid?

Shouldn't we hold ourselves to a higher standard than the countries we oppose?

[Celumnaz]

I'm not making a comparison. There IS no comparison. How can there be a standard when all parties don't abide by the contract, and some haven't signed it?

Is a contract that's been reneged valid?

Is it not the same as saying "I can punch you all I want, as hard and as often. But you're not allowed to even give me the bird or look at me sideways."? What kind of deal is That?

[Avinash_Tyagi]

I'm not making a comparison. There IS no comparison. How can there be a standard when all parties don't abide by the contract, and some haven't signed it?

Is a contract that's been reneged valid?

Is it not the same as saying "I can punch you all I want, as hard and as often. But you're not allowed to even give me the bird or look at me sideways."? What kind of deal is That?

Your argument sounds like the type of stuff used by children, the old he started it argument.

Just because someone else breaks the rules doesn't make it right for you to break the rules, and if you agreed to abide by them and then choose to break them just because someone else does, then you're as bad as they are, if we commit the same atrocitities as our enemies then what right do we have to claim the moral high ground.

[Celumnaz]

But, we DON'T commit the same atrocities. I don't care what you think my statements "sound" like, there IS no comparison.

What do you think we would do to one of ours that videotapes himself beheading Anyone? What same atrocities? Which one of ours has killed a baby and stuffed it's body with explosives so we make sure and get the grieving families too? Think they did that to extract information and save lives?

I'm forgetting, how does this tie in again to Germany ensuring the deaths of many more by providing funds to them? Or do we just like attacking America?

[Avinash_Tyagi]

But, we DON'T commit the same atrocities. I don't care what you think my statements "sound" like, there IS no comparison.

Really so Americans haven't tortured, raped and killed people

What do you think we would do to one of ours that videotapes himself beheading Anyone? What same atrocities?

We gave the Abu Ghraib guys maybe a few years in jail tops, so i'm thinking we wouldn't do that much.

Or do we just like attacking America?

Since when is questioning the morality of this country attacking it? I love this country, but that doesn't mean I agree with everything it does.

Edited May 5, 2006 by Avinash_Tyagi

[Celumnaz]

Really so Americans haven't tortured, raped and killed people

What country hasn't? Pretty hypocritical of any country to be attacking us using any moral equivalence if we look at our pasts.

You going to answer any of my questions?

How does this tie in again to Germany ensuring the deaths of many more by providing funds to them?

How can there be a standard when all parties don't abide by the contract, and some haven't signed it?

Where's Iran in that list?

What same atrocities?

Which one of ours has killed a baby and stuffed it's body with explosives so we make sure and get the grieving families too?

Think they did that to extract information and save lives?

All you do is say my statements sound childish. Show me why I'm wrong. Teach me about morality. Answer my questions. Help me to learn the error of my thoughts. Answer my questions.

[Avinash_Tyagi]

How does this tie in again to Germany ensuring the deaths of many more by providing funds to them?

You were pointing to Germany going against their policies and I pointed to how the US went against there's in fact I already addressed this question a while back

How can there be a standard when all parties don't abide by the contract, and some haven't signed it?

A contract can exist without everyone signing it, in fact it really only needs two parties to sign to become a contract, and it can remain a contract as long as more than one party that signed it remains.

Where's Iran in that list?

Again Iran doesn't need to be on the list, we are, we signed it, see my previous answer its a contract whether or not Iran is on the list.

What same atrocities?

Murder, torture we've done them too.

Think they did that to extract information and save lives?

I'm certain the terrorists use similar rationalizations to excuse what they do.

[Celumnaz]

Nice, thank you. Something to think about.

I wasn't the one that pointed to Germany going against their own polices, I think you did and Kratos pointed it out... but since I'm thinking about it.

Germany saved 2 of their countrymen's lives, allegedly at the cost of putting a target on more of it's citizens and given money in the hands of those that would kill us, ensuring the death of hundreds, if not many many more.

We've allegedly "tortured" to save our countrymen's lives, and have taken out many of those that would kill us, saving hundreds if not thousands (if a dirty bomb has been involved we don't know about yet, possibly millions)

Please answer:

Is a contract that's been reneged valid?

[skyeagle409]

"In war, casualties happen, you dont cave in to terrorists"

Yeah but see the thing is germany is avoiding casualities.

Sky---Breaking news, 1997.

___________________________________________________________________________

1997: Egyptian militants kill tourists at Luxor

Tourists targeted

"It came as 65 alleged members of the Islamic group went on trial in Cairo accused of conspiracy to murder."

"Two months ago, nine Germans and an Egyptian driver were killed when gunmen opened fire on a bus in Cairo.".

___________________________________________________________________________

Germany condemns terrorist attacks in Egypt

Germany strongly condemned the terrorist attacks on the Egyptian Red Sea resort of Dahab in which 23 people were killed and dozens of others wounded.

http://en.ce.cn/World/Europe/200604/26/t20...6_6827056.shtml

_______________________________________________________________________________

1985 June 19th. - Germany, Frankfurt: bomb exploded in the main terminal area; 3 people died, 42 were injured

_______________________________________________________________________________

Edited May 5, 2006 by skyeagle409

[Avinash_Tyagi]

Is a contract that's been reneged valid?

Depends, how many of the original signees reneged, if there are still at least two that haven't then yes.

We've allegedly "tortured" to save our countrymen's lives, and have taken out many of those that would kill us, saving hundreds if not thousands (if a dirty bomb has been involved we don't know about yet, possibly millions)

Have we tortured someone who didn't deserve it, have we taken out those who never threatened us, probably, in fact I would bet money on it. At that point we go down to the level of the terrorists.

Edited May 5, 2006 by Avinash_Tyagi

[Celumnaz]

Depends, how many of the original signees reneged, if there are still at least two that haven't then yes.

I'd speculate all of them have at some point already. Most of us still prosecute the ones that do though. Some don't. And some laugh at us for signing it and will kill us with impunity until all we are is a memory of some idiot idealogues that didn't make it through history. Or am I thinking wrong?

Have we tortured someone who didn't deserve it, have we taken out those who never threatened us, probably, in fact I would bet money on it. At that point we go down to the level of the terrorists.

And that's to the idea of sacrificing an innocent for the lives of the multitude, or condemning everyone to death to save the life of one.

For myself. If I'm ever in that unfortunate situation. I'd rather die the worst death than see the money used to buy my freedom used to kill those I love.

Am I thinking wrong?

[PLO]

skyeagles whats your point? taking thigns out of context doesnt really help does it, as you could say germany werent avoiding casaulties in both world wars, but its hardly relative to the two hostages being released is it.

Edited May 6, 2006 by PLO

[skyeagle409]

skyeagles whats your point? taking thigns out of context doesnt really help does it, as you could say germany werent avoiding casaulties in both world wars, but its hardly relative to the two hostages being released is it.

Sky---You basically claimed that Germany pays ransome to terrorist to protect their citizens.

The bottom line is, you don't give in to terrorist, if you do, then you will pay the price in the future. Now, what is going to keep other terrorist groups from kidnapping Germans for ransome if they know that Germany is willing to hand out any amount of money to them? What if a terrorist group decides to highjack a plane full of German citizens and demand a ransome of $1 billion?

Edited May 6, 2006 by skyeagle409

[Avinash_Tyagi]

I'd speculate all of them have at some point already. Most of us still prosecute the ones that do though. Some don't. And some laugh at us for signing it and will kill us with impunity until all we are is a memory of some idiot idealogues that didn't make it through history. Or am I thinking wrong?

We defeated our enemies in WW2 without going down to their level, so you can never convince me that we need to stoop to the enemy's level to defeat them.

And that's to the idea of sacrificing an innocent for the lives of the multitude, or condemning everyone to death to save the life of one.

For myself. If I'm ever in that unfortunate situation. I'd rather die the worst death than see the money used to buy my freedom used to kill those I love.

Am I thinking wrong?

Its noble if you are willing to die to save others, its horrendous to force someone else to die to save yourself or even a multitude of people.

Edited May 6, 2006 by Avinash_Tyagi

[PLO]

"what is going to keep other terrorist groups from kidnapping Germans for ransome if they know that Germany is willing to hand out any amount of money to them? What if a terrorist group decides to highjack a plane full of German citizens and demand a ransome of $1 billion"?

absolutely nothing, unless people wisen up to the fact Iraq is not a safe place to go and work, but their desperados that do it for the money, it isnt their goverments fault, its the maniacs that go to iraq to work. That is who to blame, not their goverment.

"We defeated our enemies in WW2 without going down to their level"

well actually we didnt did we, as hundreds of thousands died in allied concentration camps after the war. So there.

[Avinash_Tyagi]

well actually we didnt did we, as hundreds of thousands died in allied concentration camps after the war. So there.

Did we gas people by the dozens each time (probably thousands in all) including children, use them for "experimentation", did we force their women to be sex slaves for our military, nope.

Edited May 6, 2006 by Avinash_Tyagi

[PLO]

Still resorted to their level though didnt we, admitadly there are obviously varying levels of brutality here, but where do you draw the line?, starvation is ok but gassing people isnt?, dont really see how there can be varying degrees of morality like that. No matter what, evil deeds get perpetrated on any side, even those who may appear to be doing it for good. Thats all.

[Avinash_Tyagi]

Still resorted to their level though didnt we, admitadly there are obviously varying levels of brutality here, but where do you draw the line?, starvation is ok but gassing people isnt?, dont really see how there can be varying degrees of morality like that. No matter what, evil deeds get perpetrated on any side, even those who may appear to be doing it for good. Thats all.

Oh don't get me wrong its still quite bad what the Allies did, but what the Nazis and Japanese (and russians) did in that period was far greater in scale and brutality.

[skyeagle409]

Sky---"what is going to keep other terrorist groups from kidnapping Germans for ransome if they know that Germany is willing to hand out any amount of money to them? What if a terrorist group decides to highjack a plane full of German citizens and demand a ransome of $1 billion"?

absolutely nothing, unless people wisen up to the fact Iraq is not a safe place to go and work, but their desperados that do it for the money, it isnt their goverments fault, its the maniacs that go to iraq to work. That is who to blame, not their goverment.

Sky---It is the terrorist that causing hardship in Iraq, not the construction workers and others who are currently rebuilding Iraq's infrastructure. I've heard that even the Sunnis are turning against Al Qaeda terrorist because those terrorist have begun turning on them as well.

"We defeated our enemies in WW2 without going down to their level" well actually we didnt did we, as hundreds of thousands died in allied concentration camps after the war. So there.

Sky---The Soviets and Japanese were not nice to prisoners. Once again, America dug deep in its wallet to help rebuild Europe and support the Germans in Berlin when the Soviets blockaded that city and to repay the favor, the German Air Force has now stationed part of their air force in New Mexico without firing a shot at the same base where the F-117 stealth fighter is based.

Edited May 6, 2006 by skyeagle409