Jump to content
Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
UM-Bot

Top scientist gives up on creationists

74 posts in this topic

Recommended Posts

UM-Bot
Image credit: Julia Margaret Cameron
Image credit: Julia Margaret Cameron
A leading British scientist said yesterday that he had given up trying to persuade creationists that Darwin's theory is correct after repeatedly being misrepresented and, he said, branded a liar.

Speaking at the Guardian Hay festival at Hay-on-Wye, the evolutionary biologist Steve Jones spoke of his frustrations when trying to debate with religious opponents.

news icon View: Full Article | Source: Guardian Unlimited

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
DragonBlueStar

It still leaves us guessing as to how we got here. Nobody has yet explained how chemicals formed into life. The complexity of the DNA can not be explained by simple chemical reactions. But the Fundies view of a six day creation leaves many people in shock. First, there was no day on the first day because there was no earth. The first day could have been a billion years long.... Then...

oh forget it.

Too many questions and still not enough answers......

Edited by DragonBlueStar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
metavo

Well, buddhists always say "I don't know" if they are not sure, thanks to China, there's not much books left neither, but still they have they're own theories about evolution and apes have nothing to do with it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Shuriken

It is much more easier to choose to believe in creationism, then to learn, look for a new answer and be open mindet. Those 100 million americans can not accept the idea that there is more to life and universe then it is said in Teh Bible, in wich all the answers are given.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
GreyWeather

you can't open the minds of the past.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Celumnaz

Well, buddhists always say "I don't know" if they are not sure

:tu:

Many Christians do too, followed by a search for the truth, just like most any other group of people.

More divisive propaganda. Attempt to create a false division. Religious bigotry on display.

Christians don't have a problem with evolution, just the conclusion that "therefore there is no God".

So... women are closer to chimps than men are eh? :rofl:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Grandpa Greenman

I don't blame the guy for giving up. Look what happens when it is brought up on this forum. It is like beating a dead hyracotherium.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Celumnaz

Yeah look at that, out of all the responses only mine doesn't in some way demean christianity.

I don't even demean evolution, just the evangilistic evolutionists that preach the conclusion that "(popular new data) therefore there is no God."

He doesn't engage directly maybe because he can't support his *conclusions* anymore.

I'm all for further study, collecting more data, more discovery... that stuff is Great!!! Somehow, because I'm christian, I'll be painted as wanting to bring back the dark ages though... :wacko:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
xstortionist

Well the thing is people always tell christians and what not that they have no physical evidence of there being a God, and then the christians say "you have no physical evidence of darwins theory of evolution." so it goes both ways. Evolution hasn't shown us physical evidence since we've been able to write down history. Nor has god sh own himself to t he public for either...so the thing is either u believe in a creator which nothing comes from nothing, or u believe we have been evolving for the past however billions of years.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
FireMoon

"There's none so blind as those that choose not to see"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ravinar

Well the thing is people always tell christians and what not that they have no physical evidence of there being a God, and then the christians say "you have no physical evidence of darwins theory of evolution." so it goes both ways. Evolution hasn't shown us physical evidence since we've been able to write down history.

what are you talking about? evolution as mountains of evidence going for it and not just fossil evidence. we have DNA evidence and geological evidence as well. the only thing creationism as is an old fairy tale that was retold hundreds of times before it was ever printed and put in a book. ever play a game of telephone? so as you can see evolution has far more credible evidence then creationism. i feel sorry for that guy he wasted his time trying to lecture people who are closed minded to begin with. he mite as well have ben trying to lecture a brick wall :no:

post-14517-1149102984.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
zandore
:lol: I like the picture you posted Ravinar! ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
xstortionist

what are you talking about? evolution as mountains of evidence going for it and not just fossil evidence. we have DNA evidence and geological evidence as well. the only thing creationism as is an old fairy tale that was retold hundreds of times before it was ever printed and put in a book. ever play a game of telephone? so as you can see evolution has far more credible evidence then creationism. i feel sorry for that guy he wasted his time trying to lecture people who are closed minded to begin with. he mite as well have ben trying to lecture a brick wall :no:

hmm...well i assume that i was lecturing, but in reality i was actually just presenting a statement of why both theory conflict with each other.

There is no phyiscal evidence that evolution occured or that we were created by a supreme being. My science professor doesn't believe in evolution nor does he believe in creationism. People have beliefs my friend, jumping on a band wagon isn't my belief. I believe in what I feel is the truth.

Physical evidence hasn't been proven for evolution. Not one animal has evolved for how many years?!!?!?! Anyone?!?!? Can anyone answer that question?!?!?! I didn't think so.

What was the last animal to evolve? Anyone?!?! Nobody knows because it isn't a proven fact. It's a theory that's why they call it a "Theory" which is an unproved assumption in most cases and in the case of evolution.

I'm not lecturing to anyone I was just stating the conflict between both beliefs.

Now for all we know a supreme being created "ALL" which would mean that God created evolution, right?

So the thing is no matter what one believes we will never know the true answer until physical evidence is presented which will have to be enough evidence to support that evolution is a 100% true fact. THere just isn't enough "evidence" to come to the conclusion that evolution has happened because it hasn't happened in how ever many years.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ravinar

hmm...well i assume that i was lecturing, but in reality i was actually just presenting a statement of why both theory conflict with each other.

There is no phyiscal evidence that evolution occured or that we were created by a supreme being. My science professor doesn't believe in evolution nor does he believe in creationism. People have beliefs my friend, jumping on a band wagon isn't my belief. I believe in what I feel is the truth.

Physical evidence hasn't been proven for evolution. Not one animal has evolved for how many years?!!?!?! Anyone?!?!? Can anyone answer that question?!?!?! I didn't think so.

What was the last animal to evolve? Anyone?!?! Nobody knows because it isn't a proven fact. It's a theory that's why they call it a "Theory" which is an unproved assumption in most cases and in the case of evolution.

I'm not lecturing to anyone I was just stating the conflict between both beliefs.

Now for all we know a supreme being created "ALL" which would mean that God created evolution, right?

So the thing is no matter what one believes we will never know the true answer until physical evidence is presented which will have to be enough evidence to support that evolution is a 100% true fact. THere just isn't enough "evidence" to come to the conclusion that evolution has happened because it hasn't happened in how ever many years.

well i would like to respectfully disagree. i'm sorry if i sounded like an @$$ in my last post. but from what i have seen there is little doubt in my mind that evolution is 100% real. you sound like your not sure about ether one and i respect that. to me that shows you have an open mind :tu:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
timetraveller
well i would like to respectfully disagree. i'm sorry if i sounded like an @$$ in my last post. but from what i have seen there is little doubt in my mind that evolution is 100% real. you sound like your not sure about ether one and i respect that. to me that shows you have an open mind

I've never understood why one of these theories would rule out the other. Evolution can maybe explain how we could have evolved from apes. But, it still doesn't prove "creation" alltogether - A god doesn't mean things must have evolved from nothing in an "unatural" way, compared to how we interpret reality. Only thing that's ahrd to grasp is invention of time and space, which is impossible to grasp anyway.

But, If we come from matter and matter has never been created but always existed - only evolved, then what is to say we can reach this reality (?), time and matter must have once been created for this time to have arrived - therefore we have a creator ;)

Edited by timetraveller

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Reincarnated

science is the devil!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
A+Certified

WOW xtorsionist, did you pay attention in science class!

EVIDENCE OF EVOLUTION:

Morphological evidence

Fossils are important tools for estimating when various lineages developed. Since fossilization of an organism is an uncommon occurrence, usually requiring hard parts (like teeth, bone or pollen), the fossil record only provides sparse and intermittent information about the evolution of life. Fossil evidence of organisms without hard body parts is rare, but exists in the form of ancient microfossils and the fossilization of ancient burrows (trace fossils).

Fossil evidence of prehistoric organisms has been found all over the Earth. The ages of fossils are typically synchronized with the geologic context in which they are found; many of their absolute ages can be verified with radiometric dating. Some fossils bear a resemblance to organisms alive today, while others are radically different. Fossils have been used to determine at what time a lineage developed, and transitional fossils can be used to demonstrate continuity between two different lineages. Paleontologists investigate evolution largely through analysis of fossils such as the fossils of the Burgess Shale which tell us more about how animal life appeared on Earth than any other fauna in the fossil record.

Phylogenetics, the study of the ancestry of species, has revealed that structures with similar internal organization may perform divergent functions. Vertebrate limbs are a common example of such homologous structures. Bat wings, for example, are very structurally similar to hands. A vestigial structure may exist with little or no purpose in one organism, but a clear purpose in ancestral species. Examples of vestigial structures in humans include wisdom teeth, the coccyx and the vermiform appendix.

Genetic sequence evidence:

Comparison of the genetic sequence of organisms reveals that phylogenetically close organisms have a higher degree of sequence similarity than organisms that are phylogenetically distant. For example, neutral human DNA sequences are approximately 1.2% divergent (based on substitutions) from those of their nearest genetic relative, the chimpanzee, 1.6% from gorillas, and 6.6% from baboons. Genetic sequence evidence thus literally provides a picture of the "missing link" between humans and other apes. Sequence comparison is considered a measure robust enough to be used to correct erroneous assumptions in the phylogenetic tree in instances where other evidence is scarce.

Further evidence for common descent comes from genetic detritus such as pseudogenes, regions of DNA which are orthologous to a gene in a related organism, but are no longer active and appear to be undergoing a steady process of degeneration.

Since metabolic processes do not leave fossils, research into the evolution of the basic cellular processes is done largely by comparison of existing organisms. Many lineages diverged when new metabolic processes appeared, and it is theoretically possible to determine when certain metabolic processes appeared by comparing the traits of the descendants of a common ancestor.

Hawthorn fly

A clear case of evolution as an ongoing, observable fact involves the hawthorn fly, Rhagoletis pomonella. Different populations of hawthorn fly feed on different fruits. A new population spontaneously emerged in North America in the 19th century some time after apples, a non-native species, were introduced. The apple feeding population normally feeds only on apples and not on the historically preferred fruit of hawthorns. Likewise the current hawthorn feeding population does not normally feed on apples. A current area of scientific research is the investigation of whether or not the apple feeding race may further evolve into a new species.

Some evidence, such as the fact that six out of thirteen alozyme loci are different, that hawthorn flies mature later in the season and take longer to mature than apple flies; and that there is little evidence of interbreeding (researchers have documented a 4-6% hybridization rate) suggests that this is indeed occurring. The emergence of the new hawthorn fly is an example of macroevolution in process.

and as for your "gimmie one animal that has evolved" junk:

HUMANS

not physically but mentally:

how can you deny our mental evolution when its quiet obvious:

we went from "the cresent nile" region with mere stones, and eventually developed cultures

then to eygyt where we became more handy with stones, and whatnot.

then to rome, and greece when we became thinkers

then to european literary thinkers

then to industrial revolutions

then to technology like the vaccum tube for computers

and here we are with advanced computers, and technology

and once again i find it simply ignorant that you truely believe that there is no evidence for evolution.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
IronGhost

The biggest Christian denomination in the world is the Roman Catholic Church. They are the most numerous Christians. And it is the official policy of the Catholic Church that evolution is scientific fact.

Go to any Catholic school and you'll find nuns and priests teaching -- yes -- evolution. So not all Christians are Luddites and anti-science.

The Christians who don't believe in evolution are a minority of Christians.

Having said that -- evolution is no longer theory. It is fact. We see evolution happening around us every day. Indeed, I own a cat with seven toes! The cat's mother has only the normal four toes. How did a cat suddenly develop two extra toes? A mutation, of course. This is how species change and evolve. If a cat can suddenly be born with larger paws, can an ape suddenly be born with a larger brain? The answer is clearly yes! That's how lower-order primates became higher order primates eventually. An ape was born with a larger brain, and he or she passed that mutation on to the children, who were superior to those with smaller brains.

I repeat, evolution is not a theory -- it's fact, and we see it happening every day.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Grandpa Greenman

Thank you, A+certified, the Hawthorn fly is an excellent example of evolution in action. I have see it used many times on the site to no avail. Creationist reject it everytime. Steve Jones just decided to stop beating his head against the wall that is all. I don't blame him, it feels so good when you stop.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Boltwave

user posted imageA leading British scientist said yesterday that he had given up trying to persuade creationists that Darwin's theory is correct after repeatedly being misrepresented and, he said, branded a liar. Speaking at the Guardian Hay festival at Hay-on-Wye, the evolutionary biologist Steve Jones spoke of his frustrations when trying to debate with religious opponents. "I don't engage with creationists directly," he said, saying that, when he had, they had frequently quoted him out of context or accused him of lying. "If somebody has decided to believe something - whatever the evidence - then there is nothing you can do about it." The University College London professor spoke to the provocative title, Why Creationism is Wrong and Evolution is Right. He pointed out that acceptance of Darwin's theory on a global scale was a "minority belief". According to polls, 100 million Americans believe in creationism. His talk laid out some of the evidence for evolution, such as that of changes in the HIV virus after infecting people. He also hinted at a puzzle thrown up by the human genome project. Far from the hundreds of thousands of genes many geneticists expected, there seem to be around 30,000.

Another revelation was the notion that the chimpanzee genome project has shown that women are closer to chimps then men. Prof Jones explained that is because the X chromosome has changed less than the Y chromosome since we split from a common ancestor with chimps. Women have two X chromosomes compared with XY in men. The most important difference between evolutionists and creationists, Prof Jones concluded, is that scientists are always prepared to say, "I don't know". "If there weren't any unknown parts of evolution, bits we don't understand, it wouldn't be a science," he said, "That's one thing that believers never say, because it's all written down in a big book." In 1997, Prof Jones was awarded the Royal Society's Michael Faraday prize, the UK's foremost award for communicating science to the public.

As long as it is in relevance with creationism, I could care less, to those that say there is no God and that these things just happen because that's the way the universe works, I'm still waiting for an explanation of how that even makes any sense.

And there was a complete and utter silence.........

Edited by Boltwave

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Boltwave

science is the devil!

Oh would you SHUT UP! That's the lamest thing you can say after what? A thousand times? If your going to insult a religion come up with some new material you ignoramius!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RachelM

As long as it is in relevance with creationism, I could care less, to those that say there is no God and that these things just happen because that's the way the universe works, I'm still waiting for an explanation of how that even makes any sense.

And there was a complete and utter silence.........

Study evolution, and then you'll get your explanation. Do some research and you'll have a better understanding on how the universe works. I know researching and learning something is harder than just saying, "God made it all happen, and that's good enough for me", but it will be worth it. At least then, if you still insist on arguing against evolution, you'll be able to do it with at least a little knowledge of the subject.

BTW, if you're going to be rude enough to call somone an ignoramus, you might want to at least spell it correctly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
WoDoByMe

The fact is that the two chapters in the bible that explain how the world is created is not intended to be a science notebook. You have to take the story as a parable.

I think people need to realize that god exists, God is a synonym for energy. I have many times seen people getting healed. The people who are the 'tool of god' to do the healing are aware of how to channel or focus the energy. If you have never experianced being in the midst of this you won't know what I'm talking about. But it takes then sometimes a long time to focus and the whole place can become electric. So much so that when they place their hands on you you can feel the energy from head to toe.

After receiving this I have seen many people have so much energy that whatever it was that they wanted healed was healed. Sometimes a spark like this is all the human body needs and it can right itself, However many times after the energy has left them they are back to where they started.

Everything on the earth is connected through energy, it is only a matter of tapping into this life source.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
zandore

As long as it is in relevance with creationism, I could care less, to those that say there is no God and that these things just happen because that's the way the universe works, I'm still waiting for an explanation of how that even makes any sense.

And there was a complete and utter silence.........

"I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the

greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most

obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of

conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which

they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by

thread, into the fabric of their lives." -Tolstoy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Boltwave

Study evolution, and then you'll get your explanation. Do some research and you'll have a better understanding on how the universe works. I know researching and learning something is harder than just saying, "God made it all happen, and that's good enough for me", but it will be worth it. At least then, if you still insist on arguing against evolution, you'll be able to do it with at least a little knowledge of the subject.

Okay then, please explain to me how the entire universe started, if you can't explain that, then what am I missing? Please tell me how anything comes from nothing, the "big bang theory" how does it happen if there is no God? You can't answer that question, so what's the point of listening to textbooks, the technicality of it all? That's going to change allot. :rolleyes:

BTW, if you're going to be rude enough to call somone an ignoramus, you might want to at least spell it correctly.

Me being rude? Hufff, I can't stand being around such annoyance, "science is the devil!" and "read the bible, you won't have to use your brain on that one!" isn't funny, it's childish and flat out stupid, because no one here as ever said those things, it gets taken too far over the edge, and then new words get invented or are apparently mis-construed.

About the word "ignoramus" as you would like to get all exact here, I missed one letter, there are two possibilities in that given scenario: one is that it could have easily been a typo, two it could have been the fact that it doesn't really matter as long as you can read it and understand what it is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.