Racism in Germany

[Sanjuro]

I don't know,

Why would anyone be offended?

It's a cross on a flag. Who cares?

I have to say, people are too touchy these days.

Its not just a cross, this flag represents racism and nacism, might as well you can hang flag with dead jews on it and yell "look at me, I am using freedom of speach".

[(31oha2a121)]

as a half German, who was brought up there i am almost disgusted by who ever posted topic. to claim that 'non whites' would be abused if they stayed in rural areas is the bigges load of nonsesne ive heard in a while, for one thing, yes it is completely illegal to do the nazi hand salute, show a nazi insignia or in fact dress in german army dress, from world war 2 unless you are re enacting ( which believe me there is precious little in germany.) not only this but you will find it hard to discover a place more self aware and guilty about racism than germany every single german is MADE to feel guilty about the holocaust. im not saying we should forget, but what im saying is that i am a 17 year old student who lived in germany for 9 years and whenever i do the holocaust in my History class, people, look at me AS IF I SHOULD BE ASHAMED. i had nothing to do with the extermination of 6 million Jewish people and im disgusted that i am accused of it simply for being of that country.

and quite frankly, alot of footballers ( especially in england) have devout groups which are so nationalistic that they are practically right wing and in fact go out looking to beat the heads in of the team they're competing against. if thats not as bad as racism , i simply cannot fathum what is.

Edited June 3, 2006 by (31oha2a121)

[(31oha2a121)]

Its not just a cross, this flag represents racism and nacism, might as well you can hang flag with dead jews on it and yell "look at me, I am using freedom of speach".

not in any way or form buddy. its an iconic repressentation of what 20th centure post war people percieve to be a sign or rascism. before that it was the roman symbol of perace, as was the nazi salute, it wasan aknowledgement, much like a handshake. it should not offend people because it simply has the same symbol as something in history that was a terrible occurance. image for example, that we could not show imagery of a chess board as it could always be percieved to be a cultural aggression between black people and white people.

[Megalomania]

Why is it you think people fly flags from their houses, or flags from their work, or flags anywhere for that matter?

Is it because a flag is just a cross/stripe/splash of color on a piece of cloth? No. It is because people ascribe certain values to that flag.

Ah yes, I understand that.

But people don't want to be offended.

But they let themselves be offended by such a small thing.

If everyone in the world had a flag flying outside their house saying "Megalomania is a retard"

I wouldn't care.

It's a direct insult from the whole world, but I wouldn't protest.

I'd probably be selling the damn things

[rhyknow]

as a half German, who was brought up there i am almost disgusted by who ever posted topic. to claim that 'non whites' would be abused if they stayed in rural areas is the bigges load of nonsesne ive heard in a while, for one thing, yes it is completely illegal to do the nazi hand salute, show a nazi insignia or in fact dress in german army dress, from world war 2 unless you are re enacting ( which believe me there is precious little in germany.) not only this but you will find it hard to discover a place more self aware and guilty about racism than germany every single german is MADE to feel guilty about the holocaust. im not saying we should forget, but what im saying is that i am a 17 year old student who lived in germany for 9 years and whenever i do the holocaust in my History class, people, look at me AS IF I SHOULD BE ASHAMED. i had nothing to do with the extermination of 6 million Jewish people and im disgusted that i am accused of it simply for being of that country.

and quite frankly, alot of footballers ( especially in england) have devout groups which are so nationalistic that they are practically right wing and in fact go out looking to beat the heads in of the team they're competing against. if thats not as bad as racism , i simply cannot fathum what is.

Well, i very much doubt that it is just germans who are doing this... neo nazism is present in a lot of countries, and a lot of people probably came from other countries...

And germans should not be ashamed of what happened... just aware about it, so it can never happen again

[Tommy]

(31oha2a121), I agree with you first post, but don’t quite follow you on this:

it should not offend people because it simply has the same symbol as something in history that was a terrible occurance. image for example, that we could not show imagery of a chess board as it could always be percieved to be a cultural aggression between black people and white people.

What something ‘could’ be perceived as and what it ‘is’ perceived as are quite different. Who is anyone to say that something ‘should’ or ‘should not’ offend someone? It either does or it does not, depending on the values ascribed to it.

I don’t think those hooligans in the picture are using the insignia as a sign of peace or a handshake somehow. They are using it how they intended – to cause offense.

If everyone in the world had a flag flying outside their house saying "Megalomania is a retard"

I wouldn't care.

It's a direct insult from the whole world, but I wouldn't protest.

Well that’s exactly my point. The value that you ascribe to that flag isn’t significant enough to cause you offence. But what if people starting flying flags regarding something that you did care about… Like for example personal information on where you lived and then some lie written to provoke you. The value you would ascribe to that would be higher and you probably would start to care.

[Megalomania]

Well that’s exactly my point. The value that you ascribe to that flag isn’t significant enough to cause you offence. But what if people starting flying flags regarding something that you did care about… Like for example personal information on where you lived and then some lie written to provoke you. The value you would ascribe to that would be higher and you probably would start to care.

Actually, if it was about my girlfriend, I would probably start bashing people up...

So you're right about that.

However, I don't see why the Swastika is so offensive.

I'm German... I don't care...

I know Jewish people.... they don't care.

THink of it this way :

When does protesting for a reason, turn into protesting for the hell of it?

Edited June 4, 2006 by Megalomania

[Sanjuro]

not in any way or form buddy. its an iconic repressentation of what 20th centure post war people percieve to be a sign or rascism. before that it was the roman symbol of perace, as was the nazi salute, it wasan aknowledgement, much like a handshake. it should not offend people because it simply has the same symbol as something in history that was a terrible occurance. image for example, that we could not show imagery of a chess board as it could always be percieved to be a cultural aggression between black people and white people.

Yes if it was just a swasitka, but that flag has swasitka in white circle and with red around it, it has different meaning.

[AztecInca]

I know Jewish people.... they don't care.

Were they survivors of the holocaust or relatives of those who had been murdered during that period?

[Megalomania]

Were they survivors of the holocaust or relatives of those who had been murdered during that period?

I don't know,

Why would it matter?

[(31oha2a121)]

Well, i very much doubt that it is just germans who are doing this... neo nazism is present in a lot of countries, and a lot of people probably came from other countries...

And germans should not be ashamed of what happened... just aware about it, so it can never happen again

i dont think you intended to, but saying that in itself is racsism, youre saying that as a german i should be aware, of the holocaust. as a GERMAN. i can assure you that in Europe definately, or what countrys are currently under EU law, will never have any sort of holocaust again ESPECIALLY the germans.

(31oha2a121), I agree with you first post, but don’t quite follow you on this:

What something ‘could’ be perceived as and what it ‘is’ perceived as are quite different. Who is anyone to say that something ‘should’ or ‘should not’ offend someone? It either does or it does not, depending on the values ascribed to it.

I don’t think those hooligans in the picture are using the insignia as a sign of peace or a handshake somehow. They are using it how they intended – to cause offense.

Well that’s exactly my point. The value that you ascribe to that flag isn’t significant enough to cause you offence. But what if people starting flying flags regarding something that you did care about… Like for example personal information on where you lived and then some lie written to provoke you. The value you would ascribe to that would be higher and you probably would start to care.

it was never intended oriinally as an offence, thats my point. it was originally before the fascits italinas usedd it and then the german nazis, as a sign of peace. at this point pople should remember how it was meant to be originally taken at first glance and that way it will loose al meaning eventually. the nazis wont be able to use it as it will not phase anyone. dont percieve me to say forget the holocaust im not saying that, im saying combat nazism by almost turning a blind eye, make them lose theyre symbols and they will lose theyre power through lack of nity. without a forefront symbol groups can, byut not always, start to discipate. especially with the swaztika as it is one of the most powerfull symbols in the world.

Edited June 4, 2006 by (31oha2a121)

[rhyknow]

i dont think you intended to, but saying that in itself is racsism, youre saying that as a german i should be aware, of the holocaust. as a GERMAN. i can assure you that in Europe definately, or what countrys are currently under EU law, will never have any sort of holocaust again ESPECIALLY the germans.

true, it was never my intention to make racist remarks...

The truth of the matter is, that there are morons in the UK; in the US, in Italy, in France.... everywhere there are morons who beleive that flying the nazi flag is good. In fact, there are more people outside of Germany who wave the nazi flag than there are in Germany. I'm not saying that the germans in particular should be ashamed or whatever. I'm saying that the whole human race oughta be aware of the horrors of the holocaust, so nothing like that can happen anywhere again.

And here's the nutty thing.... Hitler was Austrian!!! And, from what i have heard, part jewish!! who'd have thunk it.?

[(31oha2a121)]

true, it was never my intention to make racist remarks...

The truth of the matter is, that there are morons in the UK; in the US, in Italy, in France.... everywhere there are morons who beleive that flying the nazi flag is good. In fact, there are more people outside of Germany who wave the nazi flag than there are in Germany. I'm not saying that the germans in particular should be ashamed or whatever. I'm saying that the whole human race oughta be aware of the horrors of the holocaust, so nothing like that can happen anywhere again.

And here's the nutty thing.... Hitler was Austrian!!! And, from what i have heard, part jewish!! who'd have thunk it.?

im SO glad that finally has the exact same thought about racism when concerning nazis as i have! thanks for that good to know im not the only one who feels that way.

its true he was austrian, but he wasnt jewish, but one cold argue his hatred for jews came from the fact that his ill mothers pchysician was a jew, and when she died, he blamed it on him. thats the earliest explenation for it. but if you ask me he was genreally , a very insane, small penised man, who had to face his insecurities by invading other countrys to keep up a promise that he twisted to gain power. the reversal of versailles.

[Boff]

Yah the "Hitler was a Jew" thing has been around for a long time, but isnt true. I believe it came from back in the 30's when someone put it in the paper or something.

I still find it stupid people want to ban the Nazi Swastika and other various insignia because it offends them. If we were to ban everything that offends people, there would be little left. Should we ban the Christian Cross because of the Crusades and the horror that brough upon people? Should we ban the Union Jack because of countries that suffered under British rule over a hundred years ago? Nope. So I dont think the Swastika should be banned either.

The big reason its such a problem IMO, is because it was ONLY 60 years ago this all happened. Thats a very short time. There are many people still living from then as well. But in a hundred..two hundred years, few will care. I'm sure there will be a new symbol that everybody fights over and complains about just like with the Swastika now.

[(31oha2a121)]

^ i couldnt agree more to that either.

yeah the 'hitler was a jew' thing was invented as propaganda to make hitler seem a contradiction and seem less credible.

[rhyknow]

^ i couldnt agree more to that either.

yeah the 'hitler was a jew' thing was invented as propaganda to make hitler seem a contradiction and seem less credible.

I dunno.. I read "Rise and fall of the 3rd Reich", written by the guy who knew Hitler, and he said that Hitler was 1/8 jewish... I thought it was rubbish too....

[Boff]

I believe they said in his family tree there is a name that sounnnds jewish. Proving that the person is jewish, however, I guess is impossible. As far as I remember thats where the rumor came from.

[AztecInca]

I don't know,

Why would it matter?

If they had lost family members or friends during holocaust then Nazi insignia may just be slightly offensives as those who wore such insignia during that time period were the ones who murdered their loved ones merely because they were jewish.

[Megalomania]

If they had lost family members or friends during holocaust then Nazi insignia may just be slightly offensives as those who wore such insignia during that time period were the ones who murdered their loved ones merely because they were jewish.

I had a good response to that a couple of days ago but now I don't remember it.

[Vallheru]

I don't understand why we have yet AGAIN to mention holocaust.

It's the most boring discussion on the planet, I think.

Let's agree on something else. Let's create a very big farm, with very high wire (preferably electrical) fences, and then put all the neo-nazis, fascists in. Then, they will have all the freedom of expression they will like. And everyone would be happy. They can have all their 3rd-4th and 5th reich marches they want. If they don't like the idea and disagree, they can always chose one of the methods their predecessors used on other humans some years ago (i.e. Zyclon and we will apply them to them happily.

Everyone will be happy!!!!

[rhyknow]

I don't understand why we have yet AGAIN to mention holocaust.

It's the most boring discussion on the planet, I think.

Let's agree on something else. Let's create a very big farm, with very high wire (preferably electrical) fences, and then put all the neo-nazis, fascists in. Then, they will have all the freedom of expression they will like. And everyone would be happy. They can have all their 3rd-4th and 5th reich marches they want. If they don't like the idea and disagree, they can always chose one of the methods their predecessors used on other humans some years ago (i.e. Zyclon and we will apply them to them happily.

Everyone will be happy!!!!

Well, if you find it a boring subject, you don't have to reply to it...

People are still talking about the holocaust because we are all still horrified by the way humans could act toward eachother.

[Jack_of_Blades]

Sorry, but one would be naive to think that racism is a european fenomenon.

And I seriously believe that there won't be many incidents of racism in the world cup.

If you exclude of course the neo-nazis, which I personally believe should be banned from....existence.

Anyhow, racism is a global problem, I don't think the world cup will add anything to it.

He is right hell i live in Germany (Munich)

and we scold racists.

[Celumnaz]

People are still talking about the holocaust because we are all still horrified by the way humans could act toward eachother.

Yeah and along those lines, I can't find the post about the Dutch "Charity, Feedom, and Diversity" party. I posted it, Super Pancake posted it, and now both are gone.

Free exchange of current events and how it affects the world doesn't exsist, Anywhere that I can find. Make what you can with what you're allowed.

We may never know the depths and reasons for human action. Personal interaction behind closed doors seems to be the only teacher. The internet started out a good place for information, but seems the locks and controls are slowly being implimented. Our whole picture is only a fraction and we'll never know it.

[Vallheru]

Well, if you find it a boring subject, you don't have to reply to it...

People are still talking about the holocaust because we are all still horrified by the way humans could act toward eachother.

I do not reply to it. I have the right to comment on it.

We are horrified, but we have other things to discuss. The neo-nazi problem is no longer connected to the holocaust as the neo-nazis simply hate everyone else, not only Jews.

Your point abt humans acting toward each other, is more to the point I think. All the rest are just nice excuses to act horribly.

Like, for example, how the Israelis treat the palestinians. Completely neo-nazis style.

[(31oha2a121)]

I believe they said in his family tree there is a name that sounnnds jewish. Proving that the person is jewish, however, I guess is impossible. As far as I remember thats where the rumor came from.

just because he has a jewish name he must be jewish???? what the hell??