Desty Posted June 19, 2006 #51 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Correct, but there can only be one truth. Yes one truth many ways to achieve it, Like a mountain there are many paths to the very top. which is best, easiest? who knows, as long as you can get there it doesn't matter, they all go to the same place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jodie.Lynne Posted June 19, 2006 #52 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Desty, your logic is flawed. You are taken as a 'given' that god exists, or cares about one tiny world on the edge of an average galaxy somewhere in the universe. Elves are real. Elves live in gardens. I have a garden, ergo there are elves present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jodie.Lynne Posted June 19, 2006 #53 Share Posted June 19, 2006 A computer is human creation. We do not need it to exist. Yet we created it it to serve us. It keeps us busy, we enjoy it. If God has control his creation, then he should have the power to create anything he want to. I don't know, because it is flawed. Ahhhhh! so we were created to serve a perfect being who has no wants or needs. A slave race that keeps god busy? and amuses itself with? Interesting theory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sub_x0ne Posted June 19, 2006 #54 Share Posted June 19, 2006 (edited) Exe11er, you can't make people believe. We all have our reasons for believing or not believing. It's not a matter of just saying "I believe". I know for me, God's existence has to be proven. The last thing I want is to is believe blindly, following old story books. Evidence > all Gullibility governs religion. Edited June 19, 2006 by sub_x0ne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivytheplant Posted June 19, 2006 #55 Share Posted June 19, 2006 (edited) You guys are rolling off topic, Its not about religion, its about god, lets not go down that ugly road of flawed religions. Except you're making it about religion. With talk of being saved, souls, heaven and hell, etc. That's indicative of a specific religion. Where does that leave someone who believes in god, but not in the way you believe in god? Where does that leave other cultures who have a belief system about the afterlife and what souls are/might be, but it's not the same as your beliefs in the afterlife? And why should we follow one path anyway? How can anyone say they know what a god, an omnipotent deity wants/desires/intends for us? How can anyone even be that arrogant? We have free will for a reason. Cultures around the world arose with their own path to god, their own ideas about the afterlife and salvation. So, if I said, "Would it KILL you to believe in the Divine Space Marmoset?" what would you tell me? If I started telling people the only way to be saved is to believe that Marmosets had ascended to a higher plane of existence and went out into space and if you just accept them as humanity's saviors, you can enter a higher plane of existence filled with cheese danishes and hula girls, I'd get called nuts at best. If I tell people they might as well believe in the Divine Space Marmosets because it's better to have spent a few hours a day dedicated to DSM just in case the DSM really are real and nonbelievers get sent to an eternal showing of Battlefield Earth. Better safe then sorry, right? No, it wouldn't physically kill us to believe in god (except in certain countries), but that doesn't mean it wouldn't mentally, emotionally, or spiritually kill us. There are people who are Wiccans that would wither and die as a Christian. There are Christians who could never be Hindu. There are Jews who would completely suffocate being a Druid. There are Muslims who would be miserable as Satanists. There are agnostics who would be unhappy being a Zoroastrian and atheists who could not entdure being Quaker. And vice versa mixed-up in infinite combinations. Why should we believe in god for the sake of believing in god? Wouldn't that be a greater insult to god than not believing? We were given free will for a reason. Squandering that gift is like spitting in god's eye. Personally, I'd rather find my own way, whatever it might be, than go "oh! I might as well believe in god because just in case I'm wrong, I don't want to end up in hell! That would suck!" Yeah, great. That's like marrying someone you aren't in love with just so you won't be alone. We all know how well that works. So yeah, let's believe in god to "cover all our bases." I'll add Anubis, rock spirits, and DSM just in case. I don't want to miss anything. I want aaaalll my bases covered so I'll have the right one when I die. Also, I should buy several of all the lottery tickets available just to cover all my bases. I might win! Ive already proved through logic we can conclude god exists. Yes with Logic. A system of reasoning. Actually, I didn't see proof of anything. I saw nothing that encompassed actual logic. Just a begging-the-question defense that wouldn't hold up on the playground. Edited June 19, 2006 by ivytheplant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jodie.Lynne Posted June 19, 2006 #56 Share Posted June 19, 2006 did you say... cheese danishes AND hula girls? Where do I sign up? Do we have a secret handshake? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exeller Posted June 19, 2006 Author #57 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Ahhhhh! so we were created to serve a perfect being who has no wants or needs. A slave race that keeps god busy? and amuses itself with? Interesting theory Sorry, bad example, ask yourself why a parent would want a child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jodie.Lynne Posted June 19, 2006 #58 Share Posted June 19, 2006 In my case? 1 to make my and my wife's life complete. 2 to raise a thinking human and to see life anew through her eyes, and to regain that mystical, magical feeling of being alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exeller Posted June 19, 2006 Author #59 Share Posted June 19, 2006 God must be pretty lonely being a single parent. This is just getting stupid now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jodie.Lynne Posted June 19, 2006 #60 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Why do you think that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckys_Mom Posted June 19, 2006 #61 Share Posted June 19, 2006 (edited) you are right, but I do not require my children to continually shower me with praise, nor do I threaten to expel them from my world if they don't. Again, I ask WHY DOES GOD REQUIRE/NEED/WANT anything from a race of beings so far beneath itself? If your god knows all, then it knows which of its creations are able to stand on their own two feet, and which ones need to be coddled and have their hand held as well, no? Why then, would your god become angry at the way its creations behave? I noticed you had to ask this question over and over again, before you got any kind of responce God IMO, does NOT require...need...want..anything from us.... He knows how a human mind works...he created it all after all, so he isnt stupid...I know the bible protrays him as a needy character....but he isnt a needy character at all.... IMO..He likes the idea of those of us that acknowledge him and talk to him, but he doesn't look down on those that don't, because he created the human mind to act and think like it does, so as he is ALL KNOWING, he is well aware of this and UNDERSTANDS IT ALL, so he wont hold it against you A computer is human creation. We do not need it to exist. Yet we created it it to serve us. It keeps us busy, we enjoy it. If God has control his creation, then he should have the power to create anything he want to. I don't know, because it is flawed. A computer is also created to educate us too...unlike God..he didnt create humans to educate himself..always remeber that..so you CAN'T compare God creating humans to a human that invented the PC.. Then it's too bad I don't believe in hell huh? Intresting you should say that...a lot of people like to just believe in God and in Heaven...but not hell...weird but true Correct, but there can only be one truth. Yeah...one that no man will ever know, untill the day he/she dies..and even so we may never know the real truth...people THINK they know, but that's not the same thing is it lol Yes one truth many ways to achieve it, Like a mountain there are many paths to the very top. which is best, easiest? who knows, as long as you can get there it doesn't matter, they all go to the same place. I like how you worded that...I agree..it doesnt matter how you follow God, as long as you do or at least acknowledge him...that is all that matters, but then again..even if you don't, I don't think God would hold it against you Over all NO ONE has to believe in God...it just helps those that do Edited June 19, 2006 by Beckys_Mom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinash_Tyagi Posted June 19, 2006 #62 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Is it necessary to believe in god or gods in order to live a good life? I say no, so what's the big deal if someone chooses not to believe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big cheese Posted June 19, 2006 #63 Share Posted June 19, 2006 take it you dont believe in god, Bwaha. unsupported beliefs nice one my existence is proof enough that god exists. then again look at the matrix of our reality. is that not proof? our consciousness'. our complex bodies and minds. a Chance for something more. Proof enough for any logicle person Not at all on the contrary its proof of human inventiveness biological adaptation and a human need to be a part of something "More" Arbitrary constructs as to aid help and build social systems and reinforce social bonds amongst parties who share a commonality certainly not anything that can be seen as proof of gods existence With regards to the original posts content it would make me a hypocrite if not anything else. But a more honest answer would be I see nothing to support the existence or non existence of god so ill keep an open mind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imaginary Friend Posted June 19, 2006 #64 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Given the history, the origin of god, (for monotheists the origin of god is polytheism), would it kill anyone not to believe!? All that we know of god was told us by men and for their own selfish purpose. I think if there was a "god" as many imagine it to be, and he wanted us to believe in him, the world would look more like heaven than hell as if he had a hand in it all along. Rather than man saying it's the responsibility of our "free will" (absurd redundancy in itself), which we are told is the cause of gods indifference, by those same men that told us he cared at all. Given 100 babies just drew their last breath in the time it took to write this, dying from the free will of those that would to let them starve to death in a 3rd world country, I'd say gods free will is example enough to support the atheists premise more than the religionists. Or if one absolutely must believe in something because they are frightened not to, believe they themselves can do much better than waiting for an invisible man-made creator to finally care! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stellar Posted June 19, 2006 #65 Share Posted June 19, 2006 my existence is proof enough that god exists. Nope. I can just as easily say that my existence is proof enuogh that the invisible pink elephant exists. then again look at the matrix of our reality. is that not proof? our consciousness'. our complex bodies and minds. a Chance for something more. Proof enough for any logicle person. Nope, not proof at all. Any logical person would knowthat that falls under belief, not proof. If its proof, please show me the evidence that this is all so complex that only a living being termed god could create it. BTW, do you not believe god is more complex than his creation? Well.....Moses, Jesus, Muhammed....... What about "Prophet Yahweh", the guy that says he can summon UFOs at will? How do we know if they're really prophets of god, and not prophets of Satan and part of his big deception? Hell, how do you know they're prophets at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randym23 Posted June 19, 2006 #66 Share Posted June 19, 2006 This is a question I've had for a long time. Really, would it kill you to believe in God? Isn't it better to spend life believing in God rather than disbelieving? Isn't it true that "All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come"? So this means that every sin will be forgiven, but disbelieving, I don't think that's going to be forgiven. So what I'm wondering is, aren't you better off believing in God, rather than getting reincarnated or something like that? pardon me? how arrogant and self centered are you? i dont need to believe in god and im not going to be a coward who believes in fairy tales and pretends i know the mystery of the universe. so your advice is to lie to yourself and use religion as comfort food? would it kill YOU to leave the rest of us alone? and by the way nothing you say is "true" just written in the bible and asserted by BELIEVERS as true. but thank you very much for insulting the intelligence of everyone here. for the record im an agnostic and MY answer to all these mysteries is "i dont know" so im not going to pretend i know to make myself or you feel better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stellar Posted June 19, 2006 #67 Share Posted June 19, 2006 What's wrong with that? Nothing. We're not saying there's anything wrong with that. What's wrong with not believing in him? Or is it that you're so damn lazy, that you can't dedicate a few hours of your life to God. Why should we devote our time to something we dont believe exists? Heres a question for you: Do you believe in the invisible pink elephant? If you had a kid, you would want them to love you and respect you, right? Thats a different case. A child knows they have a father. In either case, if he didnt love me or respect me, I wouldnt damn him to hell for it... We are Gods children, and all he wants is our love. Prove it. If you cant, stop talking in absolutes! Why won't you give it to him? Because we dont believe he exists! I just think he wants it Yes, well, I dont. You talk as if God doesn't exist. So what? You talk as if he does... what's your point? Well! if we apply logic, Everything has a beginning and an end, except for god because he merely exists If we apply that same logic, then its possible for there not to be a god and for the universe/elements which created it simply always existed without beginning. Therefore our world CANT just EXIST. Not with logic applied, If our world just exists it would be like saying this world is god because it just IS. Actually it can. If you concede that something (god) can just exist, you can also apply that same property to a non sentient, non-living object or objects. You wouldnt really be able to define that as god though... That's assuming the world had no beginning or end. I think he meant "world" as in everything in existence now, rather than just Earth. Nothing can exist from nothing Except for God by definition. Theres the first error. You do not know if something other than god can exist without beginning/from nothing. May I point out that none of us nonreligious people claim something came from nothing... on the other hand, you religious people say that god created the universe from nothing... SO, if the universe DOES have a beginning it has a creator, a catalyst of some form(and by common deductive reasoning the only thing that can exist without anything is god, because he has no needs.) Again we are stuck with the conclusion that there is a god. We're only stuck with that conclusion if you use such faulty logic and twisted truthes as you use. Since the question isnt really about whether the universe existed for ever or not, we all concede that it had a beginning, your "logic" fails you. I propose that something did create the universe, but it wasnt a sentient being, so it can not be considered god. I also propose that, since time began with the beginning of the universe, the object/objects that created it had no beginning. Afterall, its possible, according to you, for something to exist without a beginning... and Only with the assumption that god exists do all the peices fall together, without it, theres a big... BIG blank spot. Maybe you should pull the blindfold off your eyes... then maybe the big blank spot will disappear, because I see no big blank spot. Ive already proved through logic we can conclude god exists. Yes with Logic. A system of reasoning. Where? I've yet to see it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desty Posted June 19, 2006 #68 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Nothing. We're not saying there's anything wrong with that. What's wrong with not believing in him? Why should we devote our time to something we dont believe exists? Heres a question for you: Do you believe in the invisible pink elephant? Thats a different case. A child knows they have a father. In either case, if he didnt love me or respect me, I wouldnt damn him to hell for it... Prove it. If you cant, stop talking in absolutes! Because we dont believe he exists! Yes, well, I dont. So what? You talk as if he does... what's your point? If we apply that same logic, then its possible for there not to be a god and for the universe/elements which created it simply always existed without beginning. Actually it can. If you concede that something (god) can just exist, you can also apply that same property to a non sentient, non-living object or objects. You wouldnt really be able to define that as god though... I think he meant "world" as in everything in existence now, rather than just Earth. Theres the first error. You do not know if something other than god can exist without beginning/from nothing. May I point out that none of us nonreligious people claim something came from nothing... on the other hand, you religious people say that god created the universe from nothing... We're only stuck with that conclusion if you use such faulty logic and twisted truthes as you use. Since the question isnt really about whether the universe existed for ever or not, we all concede that it had a beginning, your "logic" fails you. I propose that something did create the universe, but it wasnt a sentient being, so it can not be considered god. I also propose that, since time began with the beginning of the universe, the object/objects that created it had no beginning. Afterall, its possible, according to you, for something to exist without a beginning... Maybe you should pull the blindfold off your eyes... then maybe the big blank spot will disappear, because I see no big blank spot. Where? I've yet to see it... So much rambling, I can barely make heads and tails of what youve typed. And obviously youve chosen to be ignorant of what ive already typed, Yes ive prooved god exists with logic, you didnt read it, and what you did read youve decided to mis-interpret what you want from it. I see not one valid point from you. Ill say it once more and hope you read it, this is the part youve mis-interpreted the best. Alpha and Omega, Parts of this reality, Everything here has a beginning and an end. Fact. Nothing can exist from nothing, except for God; and dont try to say god cant exist without nothing, hes god for gods sake. If we apply that same logic, then its possible for there not to be a god and for the universe/elements which created it simply always existed without beginning. that makes absolutely no sense at all, not in this reality, we know there is nothing that has no beginning, can you think of one thing in our daily lives that does not have a beginning? nope nothing, not even our bodies, from the dust they come to the dust they return. Actually it can. If you concede that something (god) can just exist, you can also apply that same property to a non sentient, non-living object or objects. You wouldnt really be able to define that as god though... again you are illogicle; nothing can exist without nothing except god because he is god. everything has a beginning and an end, its called logic, Everything in this world of ours has a beginning and an end. Even a circle has an end The beginning is the moment the artist drew it, the end is when the paper has naturally decayed. The big blank spot lands right before everything we perceive, Ive already writen all this you chose to ignore it, and you will choose to ignore it again. Good day, illogicle Person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jodie.Lynne Posted June 19, 2006 #69 Share Posted June 19, 2006 hmmm a circle has a beginning and an end? then, by definition, it ISN'T a circle. But, in your own mind, you have "proven" your "logic". Even though you haven't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RachelM Posted June 19, 2006 #70 Share Posted June 19, 2006 This is a question I've had for a long time. Really, would it kill you to believe in God? Isn't it better to spend life believing in God rather than disbelieving? Isn't it true that "All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come"? So this means that every sin will be forgiven, but disbelieving, I don't think that's going to be forgiven. So what I'm wondering is, aren't you better off believing in God, rather than getting reincarnated or something like that? So, the reason you believe in god is because of fear? No thanks, that's not how I want to live my life. If there really is a god, then why hasn't he or she given us something as proof. The Christians will say that we have the Bible, but that's not even close to proof. It's a book written by men, and guess what? They didn't have proof of god, either. Nothing can exist from nothing, except for God; and dont try to say god cant exist without nothing, hes god for gods sake. that makes absolutely no sense at all, not in this reality, we know there is nothing that has no beginning, can you think of one thing in our daily lives that does not have a beginning? nope nothing, not even our bodies, from the dust they come to the dust they return.again you are illogicle; nothing can exist without nothing except god because he is god Actually, we come from a sperm and an egg, not dust. You see, when two people love each other, or are just really drunk... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odin11 Posted June 19, 2006 #71 Share Posted June 19, 2006 All matter + all energy in the universe = zero, So, Everything can come from nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivytheplant Posted June 19, 2006 #72 Share Posted June 19, 2006 (edited) So much rambling, I can barely make heads and tails of what youve typed. I understood it perfectly. You weren't reading it through the Swedish Chef translator, were you? And obviously youve chosen to be ignorant of what ive already typed, Yes ive prooved god exists with logic, No you didn't. you didnt read it, and what you did read youve decided to mis-interpret what you want from it. So your interpretation is the complete and literal Truth? How did you arise by this truth? Did god tell you or are you someone like Daulby who knows more about spirituality than any other human before him? I see not one valid point from you. I could say the same for you. Ill say it once more and hope you read it, this is the part youve mis-interpreted the best. Do tell. Alpha and Omega, Parts of this reality, Everything here has a beginning and an end. Fact. Nothing can exist from nothing, except for God; and dont try to say god cant exist without nothing, hes god for gods sake. This is where your logical fallacy comes in. You already state that there is a God. Your argument is that God exists therefore God exists. That's basically what you keep saying. Which isn't logic. that makes absolutely no sense at all, not in this reality, we know there is nothing that has no beginning, can you think of one thing in our daily lives that does not have a beginning? nope nothing, not even our bodies, from the dust they come to the dust they return. That everything has a beginning is not proof of God. That's like trying to prove the Bible with the Bible. again you are illogicle; nothing can exist without nothing except god because he is god. everything has a beginning and an end, its called logic, Everything in this world of ours has a beginning and an end. Last I checked, that wasn't the definition of logic. Even a circle has an end The beginning is the moment the artist drew it, the end is when the paper has naturally decayed. Like JMPD1 said, then it's not a circle. A circle, by it's nature, continues the cycle. All you said is that the artist ended drawing his circle and that the paper ended its life when it decayed. The circle itself, has not ended. There's a reason the circle has been used in religious and spiritual practices all around the world. It is a symbol of cycles, renewed life, of neverending. Think. Good day, illogicle Person. It's "illogical." Edited June 19, 2006 by ivytheplant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaoszerg Posted June 19, 2006 #73 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Lol i just find it hard to believe god exsists because he/she/it is god or because someone says so. I guess the only way any of us will probaly find out is when we die then maybe then we will find out. If i do see god i will know i'm wrong but for the time being i will still have to keep to not believing in god until then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stellar Posted June 19, 2006 #74 Share Posted June 19, 2006 So much rambling, I can barely make heads and tails of what youve typed. Im not suprised. True logic seems to surpass you. And obviously youve chosen to be ignorant of what ive already typed, Yes ive prooved god exists with logic, you didnt read it, and what you did read youve decided to mis-interpret what you want from it. I see not one valid point from you. I see what I've written HAS infact surpassed you. My whole reply showed how illogical and inaccurate your "proof" of god was. Im not suprised you wish to remain ignorant of THAT though. Alpha and Omega, Parts of this reality, Everything here has a beginning and an end. Fact. If that were indeed fact (please, prove it...) then god has to have a beginning and an end... Otherwise its not fact, because not everything has a beginning and an end... Nothing can exist from nothing, except for God; and dont try to say god cant exist without nothing, hes god for gods sake. If god can be an exception, why can nothing else? Proof plz... that makes absolutely no sense at all, not in this reality, Untrue. we know there is nothing that has no beginning, 1. No actually we dont. Its quite well documented in the BBT that before the universe was formed, there was no time... 2. If we know there is nothing that has no beginning, then god has no beginning. can you think of one thing in our daily lives that does not have a beginning? nope nothing, not even our bodies, from the dust they come to the dust they return. But we're not talking about just something in our daily lives... why are you trying to change the subject? again you are illogicle; nothing can exist without nothing except god because he is god. everything has a beginning and an end, its called logic, Everything in this world of ours has a beginning and an end. I am illogical? Excuse me? You're the one avoiding logic by imprinting your own beliefs on what you call "logic". It is not logical to say that only god can have no beginning. If you say god can have no beginning, that opens up the possibility to other things having no beginning. THAT is logic, not the other way around. Look at it this way... if god can exist with no beginning, then that means it is possible for something to exist with no beginning. Why, then, cant some other... particle, lets say... I'll call it an infinitron have existed with no beginning before the creation of the universe? Infact, since time is part of the universe, the particle which is outside of the universe would not be subject to time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhyknow Posted June 19, 2006 #75 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Even those who believe in god are reincarnated It's better to have believed in god and died to find out he didnt exist;(and loose nothing) then to lived your life believing he didn't exist and die to find out He did(and loose everything). I beg to differ. If i was a christian and found out that God didn't exist... well let's just think about that... That'd mean everything i'd been told about my life was a lie... Noone was would be watching over me, and everything i had been tought was based on lies... As oppose to if I was atheist and found out that God existed, because it wouldn't make any difference;.. atheists would still not worship God and therefore wouldn't lose anything... And also, i find that atheists are able to think rationally... we try and search for answers instead of having a very old (and probably fictional) book that contradicts itself far too many times for my liking, telling us how to live... Go figure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now