the Jews are evidently admitting ugly truths

[julianpenrod]

Julian Penrod

4 Fairfield Avenue

West Caldwell, New Jersey 07006

(973) 220-1601

julianpenrod@comcast.net

June 30, 2006

Letters to the Editor

Dear sirs:

Those who seek to oppose the low and malignant often opine that the perpetrators of connivery arrange to hide the facts of their machinations, making it all but impossible to find out about them. But, in fact, the truth can always be seen, if someone is wiling to acknowledge it in what they see.

The Israeli reaction to the capture of Corporal Gilad Shalit has become a significant point of discussion. Since the kidnapping, less than a week ago, bridges in the Palestinian area have been destroyed, and tanks have rolled into Gaza. There has been shelling of Palestinian enclaves and airstrikes have killed at least one person. Israeli jets have buzzed the residence of Syrian president Bashar al-Assad, a number of members of the Palestinian legislature and cabinet have been caught in a night-time invasion of Gaza, and threats were made that the remaining members of the Hamas segment of the Palestinian government would be assassinated. According to Yuval Diskin of Israel's evidently blood-stained security machine, Shin Bet, declared that, if Corporal Shalit was not returned, "Israel will not allow the Palestinian government to survive".

This from an evident criminal gang calling itself a "people" who denounce calls for "the destruction of Israel" as "racist"!

This reaction is a far cry from Israel's antics following an apparently cirminally wanton Israel shelling of unarmed beach-goers, the Ghaliya family, earlier in the month. All except one girl were apparently killed. In response, the Israeli govenrment almost went as far as to deny the Ghaliya family ever even existed! Evident depraved attempts at exoneration included apparently fabricating a fraudulent timeline to try to prove Israeli armed forces weren't even in the area at the time; contracting evidently corrupt "experts" to claim that the shrapnel didn't even match Israeli ordnance; and what seems a wide-spread campaign of bribing Western media sources to engage in distracting pseudo-commentary, ranging from under-reporting of the event, to over-reporting of Israeli contentions of innocence.

It all seems to point to an ingrained, universal attitude on the part of the ruling society of Israel, a sentiment that seems to have poisoned and palsied world affairs for upwards of at least the last three quarters of a century!

One Jew is worth more than all the non-Jews put together!

When those who champion the evident theft of the Palestinians' land want to gloat about the slave-state atmosphere Israel seems to act to enforce in the Palestinian territories, they prate about how many Palestinians the Jews have obliterated, compared to how few Jews have fallen since 1947. The general ratio given is between 3 and 30 to 1! But, with as much "terrorist" training as the Jews accuse the Palestinians of undergoing, it is surprising how little, yes, how little retaliation there has been for the killings of Palestinians! If the Palestinians exacted as much revenge against the killing of other Palestinians as the Jews engaged in for the kidnapping of one Jew, there would be no state of Israel left!

But, then, given the fact that the entirety of the American govenrment and British Parliament are either bribed or blackmailed to protect Israel in all its evident international criminalities, before the Palestinians got even a fraction of the way there, the U.S. likely would have exterminated them all!

One Jew is worth more than all the non-Jews put together!

In engaging in the perennial attempts at exoneration that their evident perpetual acts of international criminality demand, the Jews constantly insist that "anti-Semites" are responsible for horrendous things being said about them. In light of this evidently pernicious venture, the Jews are better than anybody at providing ugly depictions of their behavior! This isn't some bad-mouthing by somebody who announced a fervent dislike for the Jews; this the the Jews themselves showing, by their actions, what their sentiments and basic principles of life are!

One Jew is worth more than all the non-Jews put together!

Israel has never acted as "America's friend" in the Middle East! They have never done anything to help the United States there; they did only what they wanted, for their wants and wishes, and left it to the people of the United States to clean up their mess, pay out tax money in apparent hidden reparations to wounded governments, and take the heat of dislike from local communities! The U.S. praises the Jews for international assassinations that other peoples are denounced for! When Israel seizes land, the White House defends them, even while condemning other countries for doing the same! And, while criticizing calls for "the elimnination of Israel" over their theft of land and killing of Palestinians, Washington's hypocritical silence over Israel saying the Palestinian government "will not survive", simply because of a single kidnapping is deafening!

When someone shows they are cravenly self-absorbed and do nothing to prove their apparently deceitful claim to be your "friend", it is up to you to decide that they cannot be trusted, and to act to protect yourself from their apparent sociopathic ruthlessness and conniving!

The public must flood news editors' and politicians' desks with letters denouncing Israeli actions in Gaza. And condemning political connivery that lets Israel off for every infraction of international law and basic decency! Any politician who refuses to criticize Israel, and demand that they act in accordance with the international community, the public must brand in their minds as either a bribed quisling, or a filthy and corrupt malingerer, whom Israel is blackmailing into submission with some foul and malevolent incidents from their past and present! The public must stop patronizing those corporations and establishments who do business in or with Israel! In the end, though, it will mean nothing if the people do not demand that Palestine be returned to the Palestinians!

If someone makes motions to try to stab you in the back, it is your fault if you do not recognize it and allow them to!

Julian Penrod

[Barnacle Battlefront]

Can't believe I wasted 5 minutes of my life reading this crap.

But, in fact, the truth can always be seen, if someone is wiling to acknowledge it in what they see.

Maybe you should find the truth yourself. All you are doing in this post is repeating Anti Semetic propaganda that you have heard.

According to Yuval Diskin of Israel's evidently blood-stained security machine, Shin Bet, declared that, if Corporal Shalit was not returned, "Israel will not allow the Palestinian government to survive".

So it's ok for America to attack countries that are a threat, but Israel can't? The current Palestinian government is a threat to Israel. Israel has evry right to defend itself against a threat.

This from an evident criminal gang calling itself a "people" who denounce calls for "the destruction of Israel" as "racist"!

Are you suggeting the Iraeli/Jews aren't people?

it is surprising how little, yes, how little retaliation there has been for the killings of Palestinians! If the Palestinians exacted as much revenge against the killing of other Palestinians as the Jews engaged in for the kidnapping of one Jew, there would be no state of Israel left!

972 people is hardly 'little'. If Palestinian militant groups stopped walking into Israel, blowing themselve up and killing people, then Israel would not have to send it's military onto Gaza or the West Bank. And they have every right to try and get back that kidnapped soldier. The Palestinians would do it if it were the other way around.

But, then, given the fact that the entirety of the American govenrment and British Parliament are either bribed or blackmailed to protect Israel in all its evident international criminalities, before the Palestinians got even a fraction of the way there, the U.S. likely would have exterminated them all!

It's just part of the world wide Jewish conspiracy

The public must flood news editors' and politicians' desks with letters denouncing Israeli actions in Gaza.

Nah, I'd say it's just people like you flooding news editors' and politicians desk with letters in which you merely crap on about nothing intelligent

[mklsgl]

Mr. Penrod,

It would behoove you to argue from an informed position. Instead of stating this conflict in the terms for which it is in actuality: The Israeli Government/Military (not "the Jews"--because the majority of jews across the globe want this resolved through diplomacy) and the Palestinian Authority--which is a total misnomer because the P.A. is not a representative agency of the Palestinian people.

Opening with a claim such as this: "But, in fact, the truth can always be seen, if someone is [willing] to acknowledge it in what they see" only cue your audience to your lack of intellect.

When the Palestinians form a genuine representative government (and one that does not demand the annihilation of Israel), then the opportunity to resolve this conflict will be realized.

In the meantime, your anti-semitism and anti-Zionist propagandized rhetoric is empty in terms of substance and neglects a historical and factual context.

Sincerely.

[TERESA57]

Hello Everbody,

I am new to this forum, Happy 4th of July to everyone !!!

Thought this might be interesting for some to look at concerning this thread.

This is old , But it sheds a lot of light on the situation.

http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/israel/freedman.htm

Regards, TERESA57

[julianpenrod]

Julian Penrod

4 Fairfield Avenue

West Caldwell, New Jersey 07006

(973) 220-1601

julianpenrod@comcast.net

July 2, 2006

To all:

I have pointed out before that it is not only the sentiments the unscrupulous promote that demonstrates their malignance, but also the manner in which they go about promoting them.

Note, for example, how carefully both Pyro Pheenix and mklsgl avoid actually addressing matters that I brought up in their "countering" to my statements.

Pyro Pheenix claims that I was "repeating Anti Semetic [sic] propaganda" that I heard. In fact, I wasn't repeating anything. I was pointing out the utterly and unquestionably out-of-proportion retaliation by Israel to the kidnapping of one Israeli soldier! This isn't repeating anybody's words, it's referring to actions that are in the news, every day! In essence, it's the Israelis saying it!

"So it's okay for America to attack countries that are a threat, but Israel can't?", Pyro Pheenix asserts, apparently thinking they have scored a coup against me. But, if they spent any time looking at what else I posted here, instead of mouthing off at the drop of a hat, they would realize that I have repeatedly criticized the United States government for authorizing the invasion of Iraq simply on the basis, supposedly, that they "constitute a threat"! What's more, this is not an attack on Israel because they are "a threat". This is over the kidnapping of a single uniformed soldier! Kidnappings occur in many places of the world, and the country associated with it is not declared an automatic "threat" on that basis. Reactions such as this were never mounted over claimed Palestinian "attacks" that were credited with taking the life of one, two or even ten Israelis! Why this much over the kidnapping, the kidnapping, of just one person?

And Pyro Pheenix makes clear their interest in misrepresentation when they aggressively misquote my statement describing the Jews as "an evident criminal gang calling itself a 'people'". Pysro Pheenix challenges me, "Are you suggesting the Iraeli [sic]/.Jews aren't people?" I never said they weren't people! I described them in terms of a gang calling itself "a 'people'". I said "a 'people'", not "people"! It appears Pyro Pheenix, as with all liars, will dishonorably fixate on points and misinterpret, misrepresent and misquote them, in order to con the gullible! Does Pyro Pheenix know the difference between "people" and "a 'people'"? The term "a 'people'" refers to a group claiming some bond through any of a number of factors that are considered societal or cultural. But, in fact, overall, the Jews do seem to operate like a gang, working relentelssly for mutual self-interest, closing ranks at times of even minimal criticism, and, for that matter, as with all the unethical, exploding at even the slightest hint of critique, since criticisms that are not murderously countered can lead to more and more criticisms, and that can lead to exposing the full unwholesome truth about the gang's machinations!

Pyro Pheenix also takes excepttion with my use of the word "little" to describe retaliations for the killings of Palestinians. "972 people is hardly 'little'", Pyro Pheenix counters. Compared to the total population of Israel, it is uttely miniscule. Especially considering that the official overall rate of Palestinian deaths compared to Israeli deaths has now jumped to 4 to 1.

"they have every right to try and get back that kidnapped soldier", Pyro Pheenix continues, "The Palestinians would do it if it were the other way around." In fact, Hamas did offer the Israelis a way to get the soldier back, and still are, namely, through negotiation! But the Israelis refused that, apparently out of a bloodlust to annihilate Palestinians! Pyro Pheenix seems to think this is motivated simply out of a national wish to reclaim a member of the population, so they should explain why the Israelis refused a legitimate course of action, namely, negotiation! The very fact that negotiation was offered indicates a patent lack of interest by Hamas to engage in violence! And, in fact, the negotiation was centered on acts of apparent kidnapping by the Israelis! Part of the negotiations include demanding the release of Palestinian women and children kidnapped by Israel, although they used the self-exonerating term "arrested"! But they are apparently all being held without charge! Gilad Shalit's release was predicated on the release of the evidently kidnapped women and children in Israel! If Israel has the right to act violently to retrieve a kidnapped soldier, why does Pyro Pheenix apparently want to deny to Palestinians the right to semi-violently try to retrieve kidnapped women and children?

For their part, mklsgl adopts a faux "informed" stance, saying it would "behoove" me to "argue from an informed position". They take issue, for example, with my describing this in terms of "the Jews" and not the "Israeli Government/Military". Mklsgl claims, "the majority of Jews across the globe want this resolved through diplomacy". For all the claimed desire by "the majority" to want this solved diplomatically, there is a startling failure for diplomacy to be tried! Indeed, there it never seems that the purported opinion of "the majority" of Jews has any sway on the government of Israel! If the majority of Jews felt any differently, they would be able to take action and actually steer the Israeli government elsewhere, but they never have! Mklsgl can make all the absolving claims they want, but the fact is that the actions of the Israeli government do seem to reflect the actual, if consistently unstated, opinion of Jews, overall.

Mklsgl says that "When the Palestinians form a genuine representative government (and one that does not demand the annihilation of Israel), then the opportunity to resolve this conflict will be realized." The intent is to make it look like all that stands in the way is a supposed Palestinian insistence on embracing illegitimate and vicious political and social tendencies. But what mklsgl is describing is a Palestinian "state" that, basically, is little more than a rubber stamp of Israeli demands!

And, frankly, the use of violent terms to describe the ending of Israel is getting moldy fast! "Annihilation" is used, as is "destruction", all intended to convey the sense that those who hold those views and to exterminate the Jews! Ending a state, and, for that matter, "annihilating" or "destroying" it basically involves just removing the names off letterheads and reapportioning power. And, in the case of Israel, removing the stiipulation that it will be solely a "Jewish state"! Even the Palestinians never said they would refuse Jews the right to live in Palestine; many did before 1947. Instead, they want the apparent wholesale bribing of the UN in 1947 reversed, the land returned to those who dwelt there and provisions removed for making the state run solely for the evident enrichment of the Jewish people and the supporting of their power contacts around the world!

Like Pyro Pheenix, mklsgl also invokes "anti-semitism [sic]", the old standby to squash legitimate criticism of the Jews. Mklsgl also describes my statements, like Pyro Pheenix, as containing "propagandized rhetoric" that is "empty of substance and neglects a historical and factual context". In fact, there is absolutely nothing that mklsgl or Pyro Pheenix can point to as "anti-Semitic"! Are Pyro Pheenix and mklsgl aware of what the term "anti-Semitism" even means? To be "anti-Semitic" means to utterly, willfully and consciously have contempt for Semitic peoples, most notably, the Jews, simply for their being Jewish and to, on that basis, actively espouse their physical elimination". Nowhere did I say anything even remotely like that. Shills will say that I said the Jews operate like a "gang", but since when do you want to want to kill people, simply because they are in a gang? You try to persuade them not to engage in gang activity! And, if you fail, you continue to try. You enact proptections against their gang behavior raping others, but you do not endorse killing them because of that! And, describing a group as acting overall like a gang is not to hate them because of the group to which they claim to belong, but, rather, to take issue with their engaging in gang-like actions!

But, in fact, every criticism of Jews or the Israeli government have been met by claims of "anti-Semitism". And by Jews world-wide, so there is apparently no truth to the claim that the Jews overall don't willfully identify themselves, as a group, with the government of Israel! They have apparently relentlessly used the threat of charges of "anti-Semitism" to eliminate all valid criticism of Jewish actions overall!

In the end, the legitimacy of someone's sentiments does tend to reflect in the legitimacy of the manner in which they promote them!

Julian Penrod

[rhyknow]

Wow... Well i have to say this is the silliest thread i've read in a very long time...

To me, it's evident that JP is covering up Anti Semetist remarks and trying to find a loophole in which he is authorized to say these things... It's thanks to anti semetists like you, who beleive that the jewish community is a "dirty race", that the jews were as good as wiped out in Europe in the 40s.

Beleive me, Mr. If my great grandfather could read this (Jehova rest his soul) he'd be furious... He survived the absolute HORROR of the nazi extermination camps... And for what? So he could listen to an anti semetic spray out anti semetic comments? I don't think so!

My mother is also Jewish so I consider myself to have jewish blood running through my veins, and I am honestly proud of it...

I don't beleive the jewish community should be treated "differently" because of what happened in the 40s but I don't beleive in belittling them either or treating them like scum. Everyone on this earth is equal regardless of their beleifs.

I find this both insulting to me, my great grandfather and the rest of the jewish community.

:angry2:

Edited July 2, 2006 by rhyknow

[Mars]

I was pointing out the utterly and unquestionably out-of-proportion retaliation by Israel to the kidnapping of one Israeli soldier

Yeah so basically Israel should let them walk all over them. I understand what you're saying.

at's more, this is not an attack on Israel because they are "a threat". This is over the kidnapping of a single uniformed soldier! Kidnappings occur in many places of the world, and the country associated with it is not declared an automatic "threat" on that basis.

So if this was your wife or your parents that were kidnapped, you would say "oh well it was only one person that was kidnapped, kidnapping happens all over the world. My country should do nothing"

[Moon Monkey]

1) This is over the kidnapping of a single uniformed soldier!

2) "972 people is hardly 'little'", Pyro Pheenix counters. Compared to the total population of Israel, it is uttely miniscule.

3) In fact, Hamas did offer the Israelis a way to get the soldier back, and still are, namely, through negotiation! But the Israelis refused that, apparently out of a bloodlust to annihilate Palestinians! Pyro Pheenix seems to think this is motivated simply out of a national wish to reclaim a member of the population, so they should explain why the Israelis refused a legitimate course of action, namely, negotiation! The very fact that negotiation was offered indicates a patent lack of interest by Hamas to engage in violence!

4) If Israel has the right to act violently to retrieve a kidnapped soldier, why does Pyro Pheenix apparently want to deny to Palestinians the right to semi-violently try to retrieve kidnapped women and children?

Sorry but I just don't have the time or the inclination to respond to all of your points but would like to mention the four above.

1) Tit-for-tat, chicken or the egg I grant you. However this is about 'state'-sponsored terrorism, the incursion into Israel from an area governed by the Palestinian Authority. Further to this the Israelis rely upon a conscript army of 18-21 yr olds and therefore national morale also comes into the equation as it could be anyones son or daughter taken. The recent beheadings seen elsewhere in the region have left a very nervous distaste for kidnap.

2) On the same basis 3000 compared with the population of the States is a fraction of miniscule and yet has been the pretext for the invasion of two countries so far. I realise that you have argued against the Iraq invasion and that the fraction of Palestinians is much higher again however I am not sure how you can be so blase about all those families coming to terms with the needless deaths.

3) Negotiate with terrorists? That is a rocky road down which no self-respecting democracy would travel.

4) How are you defining the difference between violent and semi-violent actions?

Sorry I would also like to ask you, without quotations, if the annihilation of the Palestinians is the aim of the Jewish gang why have they not already done it ? They could have used the pretext of a number of wars to have completely cleared the areas of Gaza and the West Bank, they have had the capability. I don't see the evidence of the annihilation through bloodlust of which you speak. Also the 1.5 million Palestinians who live within the borders of Israel, known now as Israeli-Arabs, as opposed to Israeli-Jews, have managed to live in peace with this gang for over 50 years and, although there is occasionally tension and a level of seperation, they enjoy more rights, freedom and a higher standard of living than Arabs in any other, non-oil rich and some oil-rich, nation in the area.

[Caana]

Well, despite whatever everyone is baseing their standpoint of the issue on,

None of us can fail to see the developing world stratagy's of the various country's and alliance's they may have with others.

As far as the original post goes, just focusing on the kidnapped soldier part of it, i think there are two levels of truth to it, both oppositional to each other.

The fact is, any nation should attempt to do something for a kidnapped citizen{we hope} and especielly if the two sides are in oppositional fronts. The conflict is already there. I am happy to have been born American, as it gives me leave to "speak my piece" however foul or joyful and against{or for} the establishment i may be{i have my own issue's}

My point, The original poster is looking at this from a personal viewpoint on a national level.

The viewpoints we must be concerned with, is the one's the leaders of a nation or nations may have and have expressed publicly.{from a citizens viewpoint}

No one can deny that governments these days are starting to mean bissness. The world gets smaller and the nations that are civilized want protection from acts of violence or annialation. We, from whatever our perspective, can whine however we want and point fingers where we think we should.

In the end, we all just live our daily lives, hopeing that if one who you love, is involved with any of that, then they will come home safe. Your opponents had some personal merit to their caustic responses to you, the original poster. Whether pro or con on issues, one should always remember the personal citizens side, in that we serve our nation and our peoples as a whole and our allies as well. That is all Isreal is doing. The palestines have no great track record on moral ethics themselve's, none of us do.

Their is no perfection in the world, only levels of competence. Thanks all.{loyal citizen}

[Shuriken]

So it's ok for America to attack countries that are a threat, but Israel can't? huh.gif The current Palestinian government is a threat to Israel. Israel has evry right to defend itself against a threat.

No, it's not ok. Besides, Israel is the one who is invading others country, so palestinians has every right to defend themselfs, not vice versa.

It's just part of the world wide Jewish conspiracy rolleyes.gif

I guess rolling ur eyes makes u feel somehow smarter...

It is a known fact that Israel has such PR campaign in US to justify it self in eyes of americans. And they have admited it not just once.

[Heru]

I wonder if the poster hadnt mentioned he was talking about isreal or mentioned the word jewish how different the replies would have been.

If it is true that palestine tried to negotiate back the kidnape and isreal refused then isreal is in the wrong.

If its true that they retaliated and killed civilians over this they are in the wrong.

If its true that there holding people without charging them or holding them without being tried by a unbiased party then Isreal is in the wrong.

But Isreal does need to free one of there citizens. Peacefuly while upholding justice should be the number one choice. And rescuing by force should be the last.

And this goes for palestine as well if its true that isreal kidnaped some of there citizens.

But returning everyone home should be the only consern both parties have right now.

[Caana]

Thank you for pointing that out in the terms you did. The personal{victims} issue's are what makes what was first written{post} important. From whatever nation. Peace on a personal level, reduce's atrocity's when they happen.{self respect breeds respect for others} at whatever levels. Thanks

[Megalomania]

/voteban "julianpenrod"

[Caana]

/voteban "julianpenrod"

You don't ban some one because they express their views in a way no one likes. I'm sure she is as human on a personal level as is everyone. Though the view was unpopular, She and the other guy that posted in her defense have their own points that are as real as ours.

The fact that all countrys governments have agenda's they don't discuss with the people"s of their nation is a known one. Isreal is a nation. The hebrew people's or jewish as most know them as, have community's all over the world and in most of the west's country's.

Even though they are that country's citizens{ and loyal, hopefully to that nation} in matters of humanitarian issue's{the world} the jewish people's combined have done much to alieve suffering throughout the world as much as any other people's. This, in spite of what has been done to them in the last century's past.

She was talking the issue from the other side, it offended some, but they'll get over it. All nations and even people's with common ancestry that live in other nations or even different parts of the same one, have some sort of connection and yes, ultimate objective's.

What those can be is speculation for the most part and can be hurtfull. Other's though, as the poster in her defense showed, do have tracable facts to substantiate their views.

We all have issue's that key us up, she was unfortunate enough to suggest racial reasons. Not that they don't exist, but against the tone of mainstream American thought it was a mistake to write it that way. When i write about the reality we all share, i am carefull in what i may say, unlike my other topic in metaphysical/?/physic catergory, where my stand is against a certain belief system and even then i am polite in my response's if not in what i post for topic. The point is that they are seperate issue's.

I vote to keep her. Thanks

[Caana]

You don't ban some one because they express their views in a way no one likes. I'm sure she is as human on a personal level as is everyone. Though the view was unpopular, She and the other guy that posted in her defense have their own points that are as real as ours.

The fact that all countrys governments have agenda's they don't discuss with the people"s of their nation is a known one. Isreal is a nation. The hebrew people's or jewish as most know them as, have community's all over the world and in most of the west's country's.

Even though they are that country's citizens{ and loyal, hopefully to that nation} in matters of humanitarian issue's{the world} the jewish people's combined have done much to alieve suffering throughout the world as much as any other people's. This, in spite of what has been done to them in the last century's past.

She was talking the issue from the other side, it offended some, but they'll get over it. All nations and even people's with common ancestry that live in other nations or even different parts of the same one, have some sort of connection and yes, ultimate objective's.

What those can be is speculation for the most part and can be hurtfull. Other's though, as the poster in her defense showed, do have tracable facts to substantiate their views.

We all have issue's that key us up, she was unfortunate enough to suggest racial reasons. Not that they don't exist, but against the tone of mainstream American thought it was a mistake to write it that way. When i write about the reality we all share, i am carefull in what i may say, unlike my other topic in metaphysical/?/physic catergory, where my stand is against a certain belief system and even then i am polite in my response's if not in what i post for topic. The point is that they are seperate issue's.

I vote to keep her. Thanks

I vote to keep him i mean, sorry julianpenrod my mistake.

[rhyknow]

You don't ban some one because they express their views in a way no one likes. I'm sure she is as human on a personal level as is everyone. Though the view was unpopular, She and the other guy that posted in her defense have their own points that are as real as ours.

The fact that all countrys governments have agenda's they don't discuss with the people"s of their nation is a known one. Isreal is a nation. The hebrew people's or jewish as most know them as, have community's all over the world and in most of the west's country's.

Even though they are that country's citizens{ and loyal, hopefully to that nation} in matters of humanitarian issue's{the world} the jewish people's combined have done much to alieve suffering throughout the world as much as any other people's. This, in spite of what has been done to them in the last century's past.

She was talking the issue from the other side, it offended some, but they'll get over it. All nations and even people's with common ancestry that live in other nations or even different parts of the same one, have some sort of connection and yes, ultimate objective's.

What those can be is speculation for the most part and can be hurtfull. Other's though, as the poster in her defense showed, do have tracable facts to substantiate their views.

We all have issue's that key us up, she was unfortunate enough to suggest racial reasons. Not that they don't exist, but against the tone of mainstream American thought it was a mistake to write it that way. When i write about the reality we all share, i am carefull in what i may say, unlike my other topic in metaphysical/?/physic catergory, where my stand is against a certain belief system and even then i am polite in my response's if not in what i post for topic. The point is that they are seperate issue's.

I vote to keep her. Thanks

But the way she/he was saying it was anti semetic... i'm sick of people writing out that the jews are evil and plan to take over the world... Because they're not... most of my family are jewish and they are the nicest people you could ever meet

[Caana]

But the way she/he was saying it was anti semetic... i'm sick of people writing out that the jews are evil and plan to take over the world... Because they're not... most of my family are jewish and they are the nicest people you could ever meet

Yes, a lot of people are.

Penrod was talking about the government of Isreal though and there are distinct difference's of agenda or agenda's if any, between small folk and government.

The issue of good or evil is irrevelant, as that can be changed around to suit almost anyone's viewpoint{from a governments perspective as well} This refferance may be insulting to some, but sometimes i picture a sandbox with a bunch of little ones armed with real weapons when i think of the world. I'm certainly not a bright penny myself upstairs, but if i had to fight{at any level} i certainly would'nt reduce myself by belittling my enemy's with racial slurs, I would respect their strengths and take advantage of their weakness's or create weakness's from their strengths.

That is what is happening. My family is not jewish and they can be nice{most of the time} but i love them, as you do yours and i would'nt stand for it either. I'm mostly german and swedish and irish, but i never throw it in some one's face or let others throw it in mine. He should have used more caution.

We all live with the problems of the past in our viewpoints, conciously or unconciously.

It is reflected in a lot of the conspiresy stuff you may have read. Your statement made that clear. Whatever happens, i hope those s.o.b.s from all our pasts are satisfied with the destruction they have caused and continue to cause in our present.

Honest post. Thanks

[Shuriken]

Caana, u seem to be a reasonable person who sees the world not just in black n white. So u have to understand, that Israel is acting in its nation interests only and the methods it is using is as unclean as for example the palestinian suicide bombers. And what I can't stand is those who scream "Jews conspiracy!11" every time someone points at those Israel government deeds I was talking about. Its almost like every criticism in this direction is met with an anti semitic insult on the one who is criticising Israel government, even when this criticism is appropriate.

Of course the racism should not be allowed and it WAS inappropriate here.

[Moon Monkey]

Israel is acting in its nation interests only and the methods it is using is as unclean as for example the palestinian suicide bombers.

Surgical airstrike/arrests targeting terrorist leader = bus/restaurant/disco bomb targeting women and children

[Shuriken]

was the shell that hit the beach surgical? Anywho...every time they hit civilians, thay make an excuse that there were terrorist hiding in that place. Its all as methodical as it can get. Allmost every time there is an accident, this Israel PR campaign (wich I was talking about above) makes it look like the casualties were responsible for what has happened.

[Moon Monkey]

was the shell that hit the beach surgical? Anywho...every time they hit civilians, thay make an excuse that there were terrorist hiding in that place. Its all as methodical as it can get. Allmost every time there is an accident, this Israel PR campaign (wich I was talking about above) makes it look like the casualties were responsible for what has happened.

I dont see the Israeli military TARGETING the women and kids. I can see mistakes being made, collateral damage etc. which is terrible but I dont see them activately sitting down, having a chat and deciding to shell that group of kids. We often see parades of thousands of Hamas activists parading through the steets with bomb belts and AK-47's, why not drop a shell into the middle of them and call it an accident?

[Shuriken]

Perhaps they would not do these parades if Israel would withdraw all their military from Gaza and West bank, thus making the lives of palestinians less miserable...

[Moon Monkey]

Perhaps they would not do these parades if Israel would withdraw all their military from Gaza and West bank, thus making the lives of palestinians less miserable...

I hope we one day find out. I wasn't saying don't parade or parades are bad simply that surely they would be a better target for these 'stray' shells, in PR terms if, as you seem to think,the Israelis are targeting civilians.

[Caana]

Caana, u seem to be a reasonable person who sees the world not just in black n white. So u have to understand, that Israel is acting in its nation interests only and the methods it is using is as unclean as for example the palestinian suicide bombers. And what I can't stand is those who scream "Jews conspiracy!11" every time someone points at those Israel government deeds I was talking about. Its almost like every criticism in this direction is met with an anti semitic insult on the one who is criticising Israel government, even when this criticism is appropriate.

Of course the racism should not be allowed and it WAS inappropriate here.

As i said, we all live with our people's pasts, that by itself, defines our world and its peoples today. I do have hardline issue's of my own, but its not racial. If i where to say the very problems of today are based on different people's beliefs, most would agree. If i were to express it in exact terms, their response's would be much like they were for penrod.

A lot of people support them, in the face of such accusation's as you speak of, because of the events of our last century here. If any people were said to have been racially slurred without cause, it was them. Then you throw in the difference's in their belief structure's, with those of their enemy's of the time's. I won't digress that here, but you see where i'm going?

The jewish people world wide then and now, had a more prosperous finiancial system based on fairness and what people could actually pay{some would disagree} but i don't.

All of what i'm trying to say is in the worlds history's. Whatever one's beliefs about a people, you can't make it personal without destroying any chance of resolution.

Their conflict as the nation of Isreal{government} against palistine is one of their own makeing, as well as palistines. It is a conflict of ancient land rights and theologys, which makes it personal to them in a way the average American can't believe, without involving themselves. My focus was the personal issue of the soldier that was kidknapped and the palistine prisnors of Isreal.

Does the soldier have little ones that count on him? do the Palistine prisnors have the same concerns? Ultimately, whatever anyone here thinks and say's, family plays a part in the treatment of prisnors, because if i was a guard{ and father that has raised his own little ones, which i am} i would'nt abuse other people{smallfolk} caught up in a conflict they themselves were born into.

All this verbage is going somewhere, i hope. Anyway, i hear and aknowledge what you are saying. What i am saying to you, is that the lines for this conflict and the atrocitie's that go with it, were drawn a long time ago. All we can do is follow our leadership in the roles it choose's to play in the world.{much like what we are discussing} The terms good and evil are shades of grey at a national level. At the victims level, it is black and white. I hope that helps you, Thanks

[Caana]

Moon monkey and shurikin are both right, except moon monkey is closer to what governments actually do. When the talking stops, civilians in any conflict die. I agree with moon monkey that the government itself, does'nt purposely target civilians who haven't made themselves part of the conflict{militarily} Shurikin is right in that much would be aleviated if the Isreally government backed off some, but they have before and the palistines murdered more innocents which has escalated the bad things once again.

We as Americans can feel and say whatever our beliefs and sense of personal decency dictate us to. Its the people in the conflict itself that are dragging this on{that speaks volumes} our president himself had to speak to them as the allies who have helped their country to become the mini powerhouse it is, or else we probably would have seen a lot more atrocity before now. Anyway, this is an ongoing issue, so i'll probably post here again.