Telekinesis

[Ness of Psionix]

If I was good enough, I would love to go to a university and have them study my telekinesis.

I'm just... you know... not good enough yet.

[Virtual Particle]

Kazuma the truth is (from my point of view) that realistically speaking, if a person presents an expectation they should be prepared to offer a reasonable and realistic way for you to accomplish it (Otherwise the expectation is unrealistic). Now, with respect to being tested, as has been made clear, there is a means available right on this site and if you can live up to the expectations of those offering the tests they will make that very clear to you.

But there is no reason for you to commit yourself at this time and neither is there any reason for you to feel obligated to prove anything to anyone that does not treat your personal welfare as a matter of priority. Such as parents, really good friends (people you known for a very long time like those you have grown up with) and so on, I feel are relevant, because they are the ones who usually will be honest with you and will act in your best interests.

Any thoughts?

PS: Kazuma

Edited September 17, 2006 by Triad

[The Skeptic Eric Raven]

As for PK, i dunno the actual studies, but it is correct that 90% of the worlds scientist accept PK as being real.

Thats crap. Please give us a link to 90% of the scientist who believe in it.

[blieve]

Ah, but the one who opposes my point proves its very worth. You felt a need to respond or defend yourself from my words, and thus I have succeeded in doing and proving exactly what I initially intended to, in a more succinct manner than I could have imagined. The sword of "justice" is never far from the shade of pseudo and misinterpreted negativity.

Raven and ericraven always get along!

For me, to all questioners: Proof in my eyes is proof that would stand in a court of law. It's as simple as that.

I am not speaking out for just myself. I am speaking for all those who believe in telekinesis. They do not have to prove anything if they do not want to. This topic is for helping people, not criticizing them.

[The Skeptic Eric Raven]

I am not speaking out for just myself. I am speaking for all those who believe in telekinesis. They do not have to prove anything if they do not want to. This topic is for helping people, not criticizing them.

It is an open forum not a tree house. They can be questioned about these supposed powers.

[arkland]

I can move small objects with my mind but am now having trouble moving on to larger objects. Anyone have tips for me?

LAWL....noob i can move people in there cars and make it look like there driveing!!!!

[Silentom]

Given your prior comments about Kazuma's presentation changing the word debunked to ridiculed would be more appropriate

Well Triad you seem to be very knowledgable in this Pk phenomena!

I am sorry if you dont like the way i commented on Kazuma's posts!

But he just seems like another child on here claiming to have these abilities.

Look Silentom, let’s understand something; because of the inherent restrictions that exist in relation to communication the internet you cannot claim that something has been debunked.

And what do you call these claims Triad? (Plausible) good luck with that!

With respect to the last two sentences my advice is that you read between the lines in relation to you sir being debunked

I am sorry Oh' Kind and seemingly knowlegable person but absolutely nothing about what i think has been debunked. That is what this topic is about information and debate.

As far as if this phenomena will ever come to a conclusion i do not know!

Edited September 17, 2006 by Silentom

[Virtual Particle]

Well Triad you seem to be very knowledgeable in this Pk phenomenon!

I am sorry if you don’t like the way I commented on Kazuma's posts!

But he just seems like another child on here claiming to have these abilities.

Your saying that because you think he is a child that you do not agree with what he states means he should be told his comments are rubbish? Yes I am knowledgeable of Pk phenomenon and actually am part of the reason Universities have departments in

relation to the subject of parapsychology.

And what do you call these claims Triad? (Plausible) good luck with that!

Silentom what would you call Jesus Christ? The fact of the matter is as far as opinion the majority of the world accepts that humans do have paranormal abilities in one way or another. Citations in relation to history are so numerous a post containing all of them would be several hundred pages long. What actually lacks any real plausibility is the skeptical point of view.

I am sorry Oh' Kind and seemingly knowledgeable person but absolutely nothing about what I think has been debunked. That is what this topic is about information and debate.

As far as if this phenomena will ever come to a conclusion I do not know!

But of course you have, it is obvious, that if you claim is that you would accept documentation from rigorous scientific investigation then you should have no problem with the data presented in the Radin meta-analysis. That you have made yourself so

clear in relation to that issue, as you have. Makes clear, that you have no intention of acknowledging the mainstream point of view if it accepts Pk ability in humans (which

in fact it has).

To claim that you wish to observe more overt efforts is irrelevant, as if in fact that were the case; you are more than able to do so for yourself. The debate forum is included under “News, Media & World Events," this is a discussion forum so no formalities exist.

Any thoughts?

[Silentom]

Yes I am knowledgeable of Pk phenomenon and actually am part of the reason Universities have departments in

So tell me Triad what is the point of all this study on pk phenomena?

Is it only to prove it exists?

Or is there something to it other than the findings are very minute!

[Silentom]

This phenomena is becoming quite interesting the more i read on it!

I have read that laboratory experiments suggest that PK might violate the conventional laws of physics only in the weak sense in that only the outcome of chance processes is affected whereas the non-statistical laws of physics like the conservation laws for energy, momentum, symmetry, etc. are upheld.

The hypothesis of such a weak violation of conventional physics has great intellectual appeal; and it is a practically fruitful working hypothesis in stimulating new experiments.

If our world were governed by classical physics, with the motion of all atoms ruled by deterministic laws, then an element of randomness, and with it psychic effects, might enter only through the statistical initial conditions. We will not pursue this possibility, however, because, in the real world, quantum effects provide a new source of randomness. In the framework of quantum theory, the weak violation hypothesis can be interpreted in the sense that PK affect only the outcome of the random quantum jumps for which quantum theory makes no unique prediction. Such a hypothesis provides a specific link between PK effects and quantum theory, and leads to rather exotic implications.

[Silentom]

I would also like to put this on here just to show some examples of how it can be,

something other than pk making these little experiments seem real to the believers!

1) You can't prove that TK doesn't exist. Very true. It is impossible to prove anything does not exist, it is only possible to prove that an existing thing does exist. How can you prove that I can't fly though the air like Superman?

2) I can move a psi wheel and rotate a straw by TK, without using my hands. My psi wheel also moves when I am nowhere near it, so does my straw, even if my hands are in my pockets. So what?

3) I have looked at your videos where you move the psi wheel and straw, but it's a bit different to the way I do it. Do I have to do it exactly the same way as you? Everybody is going to have some variation on how they do it. I am just demonstrating how I did it, simply to demonstrate that it has nothing to do with TK. Would you need to drop an identical brick to mine in the same way just to demonstrate gravity?

4) I know it's my TK moving the psi wheel. Really, how do you know that? Cover it with a small glass mixing bowl, as shown in my Covered Psi Wheel Video, then try and make it move. I strongly believe, to the point of being certain, that you will find it will not move now. This is because you have prevented air currents from moving it.

5) No, you are wrong, I am just not skilled enough yet to work through glass. You really belief that? Okay, pick a time when your psi wheel is spinning nicely when you are not near it, then leave the house and go look at it through the window. Is it still spinning? Well done! See, you can do it through glass! So nip back inside and cover it with the glass bowl! Now make it move. Oh dear! What excuse do you have now? Also think about how TK is claimed to come from you, from your 'mind', which is your brain. That being the case then TK, whatever it may be, is able to travel through your brain, through your skull, through blood bone and skin tissue, through your scalp, through your hair, then travel through the air, all without any problem at all, and without causing any disturbance to any of these things, it just passes magically right through them. You think a piece of glass or plastic is going to be a problem to this amazing force? Why? The only 'problem' is that the cover stops the air from moving the psi wheel!

6) The only reason I can't do it is because it's just a mind block sort of thing. How very odd. You have just given a brilliant demonstration of your amazing TK ability by leaving the room and keeping the psi wheel spinning from outside the house, and sending your TK through a glass window into the bargain. Sitting next to it when it's covered by glass should be a piece of cake, if you had TK of course. If not then you have clearly demonstrated that it is air currents and not TK moving the psi wheel. If you still think it is 'a mind block thing' then don't bother to try and do any TK, just relax and read a good book or watch a film on the TV. By doing that your 'subconscious' will move it for you! It must be true because the TKers said it was my subconscious moving my psi wheel, not air currents. (I thought that was a bit pathetic to be honest). If it still doesn't work for you after trying very hard and then not trying at all and letting you subconscious do it, I suggest you give up the idea that you have TK, because you have successfully demonstrated that you obviously don't have it.

7) But I can control the movement, so it must be TK. I doubt that very much. Okay, make a purely random decision, say toss a coin, if it comes down heads make the object move anti-clockwise, tails clockwise. Really make it rotate - the way you claim you can - not just a small twitch! Do this as many times as you can and then see how often you got it right. You should score at least half right by pure chance alone. If you get a result that looks like it's showing you are controlling the movement try a comparison. Just toss the coin say 20 times and write down the pattern of heads and tails and see how it compares to your results. However, the important thing is not statistics and probabilities, it is very simply that if it is you doing it then you should always be able to do it, not just sometimes.

8) But I can't do it every day, sometimes it just will not work. That is because the conditions are not right that day, either the air temperature is too warm for the psi wheel or it is not a good day for static for the straw. Why do you think you can't do it?

9) No, it's not that. It is because I am out of practice, I have not done it for a few days. Why should not doing it for a few days make any difference? You 'know' you can do it, it isn't as though you have never succeeded, so it should be easy to just do it again. Also how do you explain that the first time I tried the psi wheel and the straw they both spun first time? I had never practiced. Makes that argument look a bit silly doesn't it?

10) But I concentrate very hard to make things move, it must be my TK. No, you're wrong, you don't really need do anything at all! If your psi wheel is spinning when your hands are nowhere near it pick up a book and have a read, watch the TV, do some emails, it will still be moving just as it was before, providing it's just as draughty.

[Ness of Psionix]

And to those who can still make the psiwheel move without hands while it is covered with a glass?

[The Raven]

So you are suggesting we put Kazuma on trial?? Tell you what Raven if your prepared to cover all the expenses (getting us all to one location, legal fees and of course let us not forget the Judge) I would suggest you send Kazuma a PM. Otherwise don't you think such a condition is unrealistic?? Seriously if your going to claim so much about the efficacy of your standards should it not also be appropriate for you to present a means of accomplishing the task realistically within the context of what we are actually doing at the moment.

Any thoughts?

I say that proof in my eyes is what would be accepted in a court of law. Note that I never said we must actually be in a court of law, but that does not mean the standards could not be upheld elsewhere. If Kazuma does wish to prove his or her abilities, Kazuma will willingly participate in such a degree of testing or the famous Socratic method of systematic doubt. If Kazuma wishes to prove his or her powers, there are no means to outrageous, at least more outrageous than claims of telekinesis without proof. Once again, claiming you have the abiity but being unable to provide able proof makes the sensible mind conclude that the one claiming to have such ability is instead fighting for attention. The discussion of one's abilities with another is one then, but be aware that Unexplained Mysteries is here for skeptics and believers of all sorts, and this has been reiterated by the White Wizard himself more than once. If you do not wish to be criticized, do not post. There is no more simplistic logic. Learn to live with criticism and grow from it, or learn to shush up and simply don't post.

Criticism without negative or harassing intention is indeed allowed. If it was not UM could not exist, since the Skeptics and Believers will always disagree in some way or another, thus the opinion of one would inherently critique that of the other.

Edited September 18, 2006 by The Raven

[Silentom]

And to those who can still make the psiwheel move without hands while it is covered with a glass?

Heat can cause the psiwheel to turn even if it is covered with a glass.

Yes even the heat radiating off of your hands!

[Ness of Psionix]

Heat can cause the psiwheel to turn even if it is covered with a glass.

Yes even the heat radiating off of your hands!

And yet I said without hands. In your pockets, behind your back, cut off, whatever.

[Silentom]

Well i will say that is very impressive!

But i will still say i do not believe you are telling the truth or maybe you just think you are, moving the psiwheel and are just in denial that something other than your thought is moving it, period!

I will leave it at that.

Edited September 18, 2006 by Silentom

[Ness of Psionix]

Well i will say that is very impressive!

But i will still say i do not believe you are telling the truth or maybe you just think you are, moving the psiwheel and are just in denial that something other than your thought is moving it, period!

I will leave it at that.

I will also leave it with a final thought.

Perhaps YOU are the one in denial that these so-called "powers" DO exist, and you're simply scared and/or jealous of them.

[Virtual Particle]

The Raven and Silentom.

Gentlemen you may feel you can justify your criticisms but in reality there is no justification. It is a simple situation Kazuma (for the most part at this point we are using his as an example) has expressed that he clearly can apply Pk ability. His statements are not hearsay and the basis of his comments cannot be construed as absurdities (he did not claim the ability to walk on water) It is you (plural) who are asking for proof, Kazuma does not need proof that is apparent, so if you want proof then what in fact would constitute proof??? So far what we have heard from you (again plural) is unrealistic with respect to the means of communication that exist (the internet). No one here is going to shell out thousands of dollars to hire Judge Judy and make (pay for) all the necessary arrangements to make this situation better. As far as Kazuma following in the footsteps of Uri Geller lets face facts and to do that all one has to do is an internet search. The fact the skeptics and believers disagree with each other is irrelevant (there is no need to shout) what in the opinion of skeptics would (given the medium) be acceptable as proof???

There is a term it is called "setting unrealistic goals" it is an aspect of pathological skepticism and to be honest it is apparent in relation to this issue. This is very simple, no one needs a PHD to understand it, and Kazuma is not suggesting he is Darth Vader or that he is from the planet Krypton (sp).

As far as denial Silentom the mere fact that you keep responding proves that it is you sir who are in denial

Any thoughts?

[Silentom]

The point being that kazuma can not show proof of his supposed ability on this forum,

is enough evidence to say that everyone has the right to criticize his ability.

As far as denial Silentom the mere fact that you keep responding proves that it is you sir who are in denial

You keep responding as well Triad so are you saying you are also in denial

Edited September 20, 2006 by Silentom

[Bio-Mage]

If you cant provide proof for something, then its better to get all philosophical and start questioning "proof" to avert attention instead. Lame...

[The Raven]

The fact the skeptics and believers disagree with each other is irrelevant (there is no need to shout) what in the opinion of skeptics would (given the medium) be acceptable as proof???

There is a term it is called "setting unrealistic goals" it is an aspect of pathological skepticism and to be honest it is apparent in relation to this issue. This is very simple, no one needs a PHD to understand it, and Kazuma is not suggesting he is Darth Vader or that he is from the planet Krypton (sp).

Once again, Triad, you have done what you do best: blow what I have to say out of proportion in order to support a pathetic thesis that was poorly and atrociously formed in that little head of yours to begin with. Once again, as well, I have never said we must analyze proof in a court of law, simply using the objective practices and guidelines followed in law. If you wish to provide proof and are unsure of these methods, you will go to the lengths to understand them if your case is worth proving or supporting in the first place. If you're going to nitpick and refuse to accept the terms, then there is no need to respond to this post nor a need to continue this hapless battle of bickering, pitting logic and idiocy in a mediocore cage match -- hence your weakness and transient, salient disceptation. Refusal to accept such terms renders your proceeding posts as worthless, and states that you have no ability to walk away because of pride and savage naivety.

[Virtual Particle]

To be honest Raven I was not the one shouting and what is being blown out of proportion is any real relevance to your point. Reality is reality and if proof is what you really want, then asking, what to you, would be proof within the confines of this medium is not a question warranting all that bloviation (Bio-Mage included).

This is simple; you guys simply are asking for something and not providing a description of what it is you want. Its like your going to a store, pointing at a wall where there are 100's of things displayed which are clearly identified and saying "I want that," So the store owner says what exactly do you want and again you point to the wall and say "that over there,"

After a while guys it gets silly and it is obvious that you’re just playing games. No issue of philosophy or any other high end intellectual effort just a simple question. I have asked it more than just several times but none of you can give a strait answer, which falls within realistic conditions, given the medium known as the Internet. In fact it seems much more realistic (and obvious) to conclude that your efforts are the result of some sophomoric game whose function is ridicule. Seriously folks precisely how long have the skeptics in this forum insisted upon proof without presenting what would for them, constitute such proof????

Silentom, I am asking a simple and very appropriate question, to which you seem unable to provide a realistic response. The fact you pointed out that you would accept a scientific review of Kazuma's ability, but deny the validity of the Radin Meta Analysis makes clear sir, that you have no intention of acknowledging any effort on Kazuma’s part, to validate his capacity scientifically. How can asking such a question be considered being

in denial?? Denial is a form of bias and which you are expressing, furthermore, you cannot seem to admit that (since you have not) and you were prepared to ridicule Kazuma for Ravens suggestion which also is inappropriate given this medium.

Again, it is a simple question; what to you (all skeptics) would constitute proof or evidence of the phenomenon in question given the inherent restrictions of the internet?????????

Any thoughts?

Edited September 22, 2006 by Triad

[Bio-Mage]

Maybe someone can actually perform a consistent telekinetic or telepathic feat we can work with. Because random numbers just dont cut it for me.

Anything from the xmen movies will do

[Silentom]

I will say this again! I do not feel there is a way that kazuma could possibly show anyone, on this forum his abilities and have them believe it.

The fact you pointed out that you would accept a scientific review of Kazuma's ability, but deny the validity of the Radin Meta Analysis makes clear sir, that you have no intention of acknowledging any effort on Kazuma’s part, to validate his capacity scientifically. How can asking such a question be considered being

You see Triad you have this ability to turn what people say around and use it against them!

I never said that i deny Radin Meta Analysis, I only said it is useless and worthless to me, because i for one do not care for all those random number studies on Pk!

[The Skeptic Eric Raven]

Maybe someone can actually perform a consistent telekinetic or telepathic feat we can work with. Because random numbers just dont cut it for me.

Anything from the xmen movies will do

Exactly. I have said this before. Move something with the mind under scientific protocols.