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MaNgO_gIrL_hErE

Israeli air strike kills 54

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AROCES

You're assuming that in response to these missle attacks that the method Israel is using is the only way, when there are alternatives to airstrikes and artillery barrages on populated areas.

You want us to go in there without air support and loose a lot of soldiers? Now you loosing soldiers and civilians to save the citizens that harbors the Hezbollah? Might as well just surrender! :rolleyes:

Edited by AROCES

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Avinash_Tyagi

You want us to go in there without air support and loose a lot of soldiers? Now you loosing soldiers and civilians to save the citizens that harbors the Hezbollah? Might as well just surrender! :rolleyes:

Are you telling me Israel doesn't have any Helicopters to support their land forces? ^_^

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odas

Sure, blame the victims. Nothing new.

Kratos and Aroces, you are both so pathetic.

Either you are extremly racist or you don't have a clue what a war zone is.

Ah, I do not even know, why I am responding to your posts.

Of course Hesbolah is a teroristic organisation, so is the Israeli government.

Both of them are killing civilians.

In a war zone it is not the easiest way or the safest, it's what comes first through your head to stay alive. Not everybody is able to get out on time.

I would like to see you and your action instead. How would you act if there were no way out except to find a shelter.

It is easy to talk when your ass is secured to the couch somewhere far away.

And I am talking in the name of all children, Lebanees and Israelis.

YOU do not have a clue what you are talking about. Pathetic.

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Hermetic Hermit

Livni: Qana attack led to turning point in support for Israel

**

The Association for Civil Rights in Israel on Tuesday urged Prime Minister Ehud Olmert to establish a state commission of inquiry into the killings at Qana.

As the Israel Air Force continues to investigate the air strike, questions have been raised over military accounts of the incident.

It now appears that the military had no information on rockets launched from the site of the building, or the presence of Hezbollah men at the time.

The Israel Defense Forces had said after the deadly air-strike that many rockets had been launched from Qana. However, it changed its version on Monday.

Source

**

'No Hezbollah Rockets Fired from Qana'

Red Cross workers and residents of Qana, where Israeli bombing killed at least 60 civilians, have told IPS that no Hezbollah rockets were launched from the city before the Israeli air strike.

The Israeli military has said it bombed the building in which several people had taken shelter, more than half of them children, because the Army had faced rocket fire from Qana. The Israeli military has said that Hezbollah was therefore responsible for the deaths.

"There were no Hezbollah rockets fired from here," 32-year-old Ali Abdel told IPS. "Anyone in this village will tell you this, because it is the truth."

Abdel had taken shelter in a nearby house when the shelter was bombed at 1 am. When the bombings finally let up in the morning, he went back to the bombed shelter to search for relatives.

He found his 70-year-old father and 64-year-old mother both dead inside.

"They bombed it, and afterwards I heard the screams of women, children, and a few men -- they were crying for help. But then one minute after the first bomb, another bomb struck, and after this there was nothing but silence, and the sound of more bombs around the village."

Masen Hashen, a 30-year-old construction worker from Qana who lost several family members in the air strike on the shelter, said there were no Hezbollah rockets fired from his village. "Because if they had done that now, or in the past, all of us would have left. Because we know we would be bombed."

Qana had been a shelter because no rockets were being fired from there, survivors said. "When Hezbollah fires their rockets, everyone runs away because they know an Israeli bombardment will come soon," Abdel said. "That is why everyone stayed in the shelter and nearby homes, because we all thought we'd be all right since there were no Hezbollah fighters in Qana."

Lebanese Red Cross workers in the nearby coastal city of Tyre told IPS that there was no basis for Israeli claims that Hezbollah had launched rockets from Qana.

"We found no evidence of Hezbollah fighters in Qana," Kassem Shaulan, a 28-year-old medic and training manager for the Red Cross in Tyre told IPS at their headquarters. "When we rescue people or recover bodies from villages, we usually see rocket launchers or Hezbollah fighters if they are there, but in Qana I can say that the village was 100 percent clear of either of those."

Another Red Cross worker, 32-year-old Mohammad Zatar, told IPS that "we can tell when Hezbollah has been firing rockets from certain areas, because all of the people run away, on foot if they have to."

While IPS was interviewing people in Qana at the site of the shelter Monday, Israeli warplanes roared overhead. Vibrations from nearby bombing rattled many buildings. At least three villages in southern Lebanon were attacked in Israeli air strikes Monday.

Following the international outcry over the air strike, Israel declared a 48-hour cessation of air strikes in order to carry out a military probe into the Qana killings.

Despite the false Israeli statement that it was halting its air strikes, Israeli Justice Minister Haim Ramon told Army Radio that the stoppage "does not signify in any way the end to the war."

Israel has rejected mounting international pressure to end the 20-day-old war against Hezbollah. The United Nations has indefinitely postponed a meeting on a new peacekeeping force for southern Lebanon.

While defending the Israeli air strike on the civilians in Qana, Israel's ambassador to the United Nations Dan Gillerman told the UN Security Council that Qana was "a hub for Hezbollah", and said that Israel had urged villagers to leave.

Israeli Deputy Prime Minister Shimon Peres said in reply to questions in New York Monday that the bombing was "totally, totally its (Hezbollah's) fault."

Source

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AROCES

Are you telling me Israel doesn't have any Helicopters to support their land forces? ^_^

Helicopters are part of air support. :rolleyes: They too can fire rockets you know. Or you think you can have a helicopter there as a spotter and tell the ground troops when and where to fire, one ground to air missile and your spotter is gone, and then what???

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AROCES

Sure, blame the victims. Nothing new.

Kratos and Aroces, you are both so pathetic.

Either you are extremly racist or you don't have a clue what a war zone is.

Ah, I do not even know, why I am responding to your posts.

Of course Hesbolah is a teroristic organisation, so is the Israeli government.

Both of them are killing civilians.

In a war zone it is not the easiest way or the safest, it's what comes first through your head to stay alive. Not everybody is able to get out on time.

I would like to see you and your action instead. How would you act if there were no way out except to find a shelter.

It is easy to talk when your ass is secured to the couch somewhere far away.

And I am talking in the name of all children, Lebanees and Israelis.

YOU do not have a clue what you are talking about. Pathetic.

And it is easy for you to say all these for you are not the one who is getting hit by the Hezbollah rockets. The Lebanese civilians are not without fault in here, they harbor the Hezbollah so now thay are paying a price for it.

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eckogangsta

Are you telling me Israel doesn't have any Helicopters to support their land forces? ^_^

Its not as simple as you make it sound/think :rolleyes:

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Avinash_Tyagi

Helicopters are part of air support. :rolleyes: They too can fire rockets you know. Or you think you can have a helicopter there as a spotter and tell the ground troops when and where to fire, one ground to air missile and your spotter is gone, and then what???

Yes i know thy're part of Air support, I never said Israel shouldn't use air support, you assumed I said that, i said they shouldn't use Airstrikes (Big difference there, sparky ;) )

You do understand that there is a big difference between a Fighter Jet/Warplane and a helicopter in terms of usage and capabilities right?

And yes a Rocket can take out a Helicopter, but that's why you use them in conjunction with other Helicopters and Land forces, You know the concept of Combined arms and all that.

Plus a Helicopter gives you a better look of who is inside a building than does a Jet ;)

And it is easy for you to say all these for you are not the one who is getting hit by the Hezbollah rockets. The Lebanese civilians are not without fault in here, they harbor the Hezbollah so now thay are paying a price for it.

Yes the Children are at fault for harboring Hezbollah, they must suffer!! :rolleyes: (You're just showing ignorance with that statement my friend)

Its not as simple as you make it sound/think :rolleyes:

Yes because Helicopters have never been used in conjunction with land forces before :rolleyes:

Duh, of course it requires planning/preparation, but hello so do most military operations.

Edited by Avinash_Tyagi

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AROCES

Yes i know thy're part of Air support, I never said Israel shouldn't use air support, you assumed I said that, i said they shouldn't use Airstrikes (Big difference there, sparky ;) )

You do understand that there is a big difference between a Fighter Jet/Warplane and a helicopter in terms of usage and capabilities right?

And yes a Rocket can take out a Helicopter, but that's why you use them in conjunction with other Helicopters and Land forces, You know the concept of Combined arms and all that.

Plus a Helicoptet allows you to properly tell who or what is inside a target before you fire ;)

Yes the Children are at fault for harboring Hezbollah, they must suffer!! :rolleyes: (You're just showing ignorance with that statement my friend)

- Attack helicopter such as the Apache has guns and rockets that is capable of massive damage. How on earth can a helicopter tell who is inside a barrack or building???

It is the responsibility of the parents to get their children out of harms way. Not a stranger in a helicopter.

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Avinash_Tyagi

- Attack helicopter such as the Apache has guns and rockets that is capable of massive damage. How on earth can a helicopter tell who is inside a barrack or building???

It is the responsibility of the parents to get their children out of harms way. Not a stranger in a helicopter.

Yes they do have missles, did I say otherwise? What you seem to be unable to comprehend is a Helicopter serves a very different purpose in Battle then a Fighter Jet.

The advanced model, the AH-64D Apache Longbow, is equipped with an improved sensor suite and weapon systems. The key improvement over the A-variant is the Longbow Fire Control Radar dome installed over the main rotor which houses a millimeter-wave Fire Control Radar (FCR) target acquisition system. The elevated position of the radome allows detection and (arcing) missile engagement of targets even when the helicopter itself is concealed by an obstacle (e.g. terrain, trees or buildings). Further, a radio modem integrated with the sensor suite allows a D-variant Apache to share targeting data with other AH-64Ds that do not have a line-of-sight to the target. In this manner a group of Apaches can engage multiple targets but only reveal the radome of one D-variant Apache.

TADS contains stabilised electro-optical sensors, a laser rangefinder and laser target designator. The TADS assembly can rotate +/- 120 degrees in azimuth, +30/-60 degrees in elevation and can move independently of the PNVS. The movements of TADS can be 'slaved' to the head movements of the helicopter crew to point where they are looking. This allows images from TADS to be projected onto the crew helmet-mounted optical sights, overlaid upon their view of the cockpit and battle space.

TADS contains a thermal imaging infrared camera and a monochrome daylight television camera. With the improvements planned with M-TADS in the block III level AH-64D, the monochrome TV-camera is planned replaced with a full color camera.

It also used to contain direct-view optics(DVO) which the copilot/gunner (CPG) could see through the Optical Relay Tube (ORT). But in recently fielded models of the AH-64D the ORT along with the DVO has been removed as it was rarely used. It has been replaced in the co-pilot's cockpit by a third Multi Purpose Display.

Mounted above the TADS, the PNVS contains an infrared camera slaved to the head movements of the pilot. PNVS can rotate +/- 90 degrees in azimuth and +20/-45 degrees in elevation. PNVS has a high rate of movement so as to accurately match the head movements of the pilot.

You're telling me an Apache (and probably other helicopters) can't be used to recon a target, and doesn't have the tech to detect people inside buildings ( they can't look in a window)?

But its the Israeli military's responsibility not to fire on civilains :tu:

Edited by Avinash_Tyagi

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AROCES

So, you want the Israeli to look out or in the window first? To get their head blown off?? What you see in the movies is not all a reality, you think they have gadgets now that can see thru walls??? Israel does not fire directly into the civilians, they return fire wherever it is coming from..

Edited by AROCES

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Avinash_Tyagi

So, you want the Israeli to look out or in the window first? To get their head blown of?? What you see in the movies is not all a reality, you think they have gadgets now that can see thru walls??? Israel does not fire into the civilians, they return fire to survive.

The elevated position of the radome allows detection and (arcing) missile engagement of targets even when the helicopter itself is concealed by an obstacle (e.g. terrain, trees or buildings)

Apparantly the Apache has the ability to see around obstacles to a degree, You're telling me it has no ability to determine targets in a building? You're telling me a simple wall can stop its abilty to detect anything, while it has no trouble looking around bulidings and terrain?

My god don't tell the terrorists, they'll have the perfect way to get away, just go inside :rofl::rolleyes:

maybe they should do like Snake and walk around under cardboard boxes :P (Ok I'm done with the sarcasm)

Returning fire to Survive? Apparently not:

'No Hezbollah Rockets Fired from Qana'

Edited by Avinash_Tyagi

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AROCES

The elevated position of the radome allows detection and (arcing) missile engagement of targets even when the helicopter itself is concealed by an obstacle (e.g. terrain, trees or buildings)

Apparantly the Apache has the ability to see around obstacles to a degree, You're telling me it has no ability to determine targets in a building? You're telling me a simple wall can stop its abilty to detect anything, while it has no trouble looking around bulidings and terrain?

Returning fire to Survive? Apparently not:

'No Hezbollah Rockets Fired from Qana'

Yes, around an obstacle TO A DEGREE, not inside a building! That RADOME is actually peeping up like a periscope and the rest of the helicopter in hidden. Another way is a ground spotter is the eye and the apache fires it 's missile while hidden, thereby it's missile goes around an obstacle and make a kill. They don't see thru walls like Superman does :rolleyes:

Why do you return fire?To eliminate the theat??? So you will survive!

Edited by AROCES

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Avinash_Tyagi

Yes, around an obstacle TO A DEGREE, not inside a building! You know how the Apache does it? A ground spotter is the eye and the apache fires it 's missile while hidden, thereby it's missile goes around an obstacle and make a kill.

Why do you return fire?To eliminate the theat??? So you will survive!

assuming that it has no ability to detect anything inside a building and requires a ground observer to "light up a target" so to speak. Then where's the risk to the helicopter you keep talking about, if You can use it from a distance with the help of ground forces, not only can it support those ground forces, but it satys out of harms way itself. Send ground troops towards a building, if they get fired on then you know its hostile and you can use the apache from behind cover to fire back.

Again there apparantly was no threat in that area to begin with so there was no "return" fire.

Edited by Avinash_Tyagi

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AROCES

assuming that it has no ability to detect anything inside a building and requires a ground observer to "light up a target" so to speak. Then where's the risk to the helicopter you keep talking about, if You can use it from a distance with the help of ground forces, not only can it support those ground forces, but it satys out of harms way itself. Send ground troops towards a building, if they get fired on then you know its hostile and you can use the apache from behind cover to fire back.

Again there apparantly was no threat in that area to begin with so there was no "return" fire.

You got it the other way around, first you hit the target with barrage and then you close in. Continued air support then comes in for pocket resistance.

Why on earth would one fire on a non hostile area, to kill civilians so they can use the incident agianst you??? :blink:

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Avinash_Tyagi

You got it the other way around, first you hit the target with barrage and then you close in. Continued air support then comes in for pocket resistance.

And that's how you end up killing civilains with Bad intel, maybe they should do it my way, recon the target, determin if its hostile, then open fire.

Why on earth would one fire on a non hostile area, to kill civilians so they can use the incident agianst you??? :blink:

You've never heard of Bad intel? Let me introduce you to the Iraq war. ;)

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AROCES

And that's how you end up killing civilains with Bad intel, maybe they should do it my way, recon the target, determin if its hostile, then open fire.

You've never heard of Bad intel? Let me introduce you to the Iraq war. ;)

They do that too! But when you are getting bombarded or fired upon, you just do what it is neccesary to eliminate the threat as quickly as possible. It's a military strategy.

Bad intelligence happens in wars, for the enemy is not really some dumb robots. They are smart too and thinking how to fool you, lure you, evade you and defeat you!.

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Avinash_Tyagi

They do that too! But when you are getting bombarded or fired upon, you just do what it is neccesary to eliminate the threat as quickly as possible. It's a military strategy.

Bad intelligence happens in wars, for the enemy is not really some dumb robots. They are smart too and thinking how to fool you, lure you, evade you and defeat you!.

This however proves they moved too fast, if they had waited they could have avoided killing innocents and used those resources to hit the actual enemy, so in this case the enemy got the better of them in every possible way, so you see my point, there are better ways to conduct this war then Israel is doing, ways that minimize civilian casualties and actually get at hezbollah.

Its like when you play chess, ypu don't just jump at the first available move, you have to plan and strategically place your pieces

Edited by Avinash_Tyagi

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AROCES

This however proves they moved too fast, if they had waited they could have avoided killing innocents and used those resources to hit the actual enemy, so in this case the enemy got the better of them in every possible way, so you see my point, there are better ways to conduct this war then Israel is doing, ways that minimize civilian casualties and actually get at hezbollah.

Moving fast wins war! The Hezbollah are loosing the battle and they are using the civilian casualties to slow down their defeat. They use you, people like yourself are actually making the civilians more of a victim, the Hezbollahs fights around them so thay get killed and you people get outrage. The more civilians that gets killed the better for them, not to Israel.

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Avinash_Tyagi

Moving fast wins war! The Hezbollah are loosing the battle and they are using the civilian casualties to slow down their defeat. They use you, people like yourself are actually making the civilians more of a victim, the Hezbollahs fights around them so thay get killed and you people get outrage. The more civilians that gets killed the better for them, not to Israel.

You really think this will defeat them? Please, Israel probably just won them huge numbers of converts thanks to these deaths and others, not to mention huge support in the Muslim world.

Edited by Avinash_Tyagi

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AROCES

You really think this will defeat them? Please, Israel probably just won them huge numbers of converts thanks to these deaths and others, not to mention huge support in the Muslim world.

The Muslim world never like them, what are you talking about?

How can someone who wants to wipe you out of the map get any angrier???

Edited by AROCES

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Avinash_Tyagi

The Muslim world never like them, what are you talking about?

They just get angrier for they can't defeat and wipeout Israel.

I think you need to read the news a bit, quite a bunch of Muslims and muslim nations are in support of Hezbollah and/or opposed to Israel's actions.

fox news

Edited by Avinash_Tyagi

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user39142

okey doke....i'll check out that movie angelique.I must say that none of us should interfere in conflicts between two other countries,because thats their problem to solve and we can never know the whole truth.Basically every kind of conflict suck,i dream about the day where there will be no weapons and that all people will finally leave peacefully.

We don't need weapons,there was enough wars and such conflicts thru the history of mankind.

After all everybody will sit down by the table and make some kind of peace treaty or find some kind of compromis.

No war !

Peace to everyone !

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Moon Monkey

You're assuming that in response to these missle attacks that the method Israel is using is the only way, when there are alternatives to airstrikes and artillery barrages on populated areas.

Well either they knew people were in there and guessed wrong who it was or they were stupid enough to hit the wrong target, either way it shows a lack of intelligence in all uses of the word on their part, How about those who are unable to travel Kratos due to illness or injury (I can't believe you're grasping so hard as to blame the victims for being bombed)? Just because some can escape doesn't mean all can, and yes even with warnings, Israel is at fault for launching the airstrikes into populated areas because they have to know that there is a strong likelihood of Civilians still remaining in the cities and towns they attack, they just don't care as long as they get at Hezbollah, in that way both sides are alike, they don't really care about the civilians who get harmed as long as they kill the other guys.

One more time

Hezbollah=Terrorists

Israel= Supposedly not

I never once stated it was ok for Hezbollah to use those tactics, however you'd be foolish to think that they'll stop using those tactics (being Terrorists, you have to expect that they will use those tactics).

So what tactics would you recommend Israel adopt?

Hezbollah are much more able to identify where their civilians are, and therefore much more able to pick a clean battlefield.

700,000 seem to have managed to move out of these risky areas. Why leave the old, young and disabled behind? Surely a decent society would evacuate the most at risk first. I still wonder what they were still doing there (20 days in) and where all the menfolk were and why no signal could have got out to anyone that there were 60 people crammed into a basement in the middle of a battlefield.

Hezbollah=Terrorists( fundamentalist nutjobs bent on the destruction of Israel to whom life is worthless as they, and the civilians killed by Israel, become martyrs and get virgins and sh**, dug into bunkers and tunnels , armed to the teeth and well trained and actually wanting a ground invasion to kill 'zionists')

Israel=Trying to fight a conventional war against aforementioned nutjobs to defend its citizens and minimise their own casulties.

If Hezbollah had been disarmed 6 years ago we would now be able to go to Beirut from Israel like we can go to Cairo and Amman. The difference being the fundamentalists are allowed to run wild in Lebanon and are cracked down on in Egypt and Jordan.

O and btw Apaches are basically tank /armour killers which are very good in a conventional war but can be taken out quite easily with hand-held ground-to-air missiles by some guy who pops out of a tunnel/bunker in a guerilla campaign(especially when , as you would have them do, hovering low and slow checking out buildings basements for civilians, using some kind of super x-ray that can see through a few layers of reinforced concrete and then the ground and then identify the blurred shapes as civilians not fighters). Ask the russians about using attack helicopters against guerillas in Afghanistan and that was 20 years ago. Why risk a $80 million bit of kit to do a job that an airstrike /shell can do without risk? Either way the same result to the building in question. Its a war ....rockets fired, triangulate, bomb. Hezzbollah know that and therefore should check the surrounding area for their own civilians first before allocating the target.

Edited by Moon Monkey

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AROCES

I think you need to read the news a bit, quite a bunch of Muslims and muslim nations are in support of Hezbollah and/or opposed to Israel's actions.

fox news

EXACTLY, so why do you say that what Israel is doing now will make more muslim hate them??? They been hating them for the longest time.

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