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MaNgO_gIrL_hErE

Israeli air strike kills 54

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Avinash_Tyagi

EXACTLY, so why do you say that what Israel is doing now will make more muslim hate them??? They been hating them for the longest time.

It's an energizing effect, many who wouldn't have take up arms or given support previously will do so now.

So what tactics would you recommend Israel adopt?

I would rather they stop launching airstrikes on civilian population centers.

700,000 seem to have managed to move out of these risky areas. Why leave the old, young and disabled behind? Surely a decent society would evacuate the most at risk first.

Yes we did so well in New Orleans last year with that didn't we? :rolleyes: (You really think its as easy as snapping your fingers do you?)

O and btw Apaches are basically tank /armour killers which are very good in a conventional war but can be taken out quite easily with hand-held ground-to-air missiles by some guy who pops out of a tunnel/bunker in a guerilla campaign(especially when , as you would have them do, hovering low and slow checking out buildings basements for civilians, using some kind of super x-ray that can see through a few layers of reinforced concrete and then the ground and then identify the blurred shapes as civilians not fighters). Ask the russians about using attack helicopters against guerillas in Afghanistan and that was 20 years ago. Why risk a $80 million bit of kit to do a job that an airstrike /shell can do without risk? Either way the same result to the building in question. Its a war ....rockets fired, triangulate, bomb. Hezzbollah know that and therefore should check the surrounding area for their own civilians first before allocating the target.

You already showed that they're nutjobs, you really think they care? My point is Israelis aren't nutjobs (I hope), so thhey shouldn't commit the same type of acts that Hezbollah would, like attacking children.

As for the Apache, according to the technical information ,its capable of targeting over 200 enemies and without revealing itself to enemy fire so the danger of ground to air missles should be minimized (unless this is another case of the Military overselling the capabilities of their weapons)

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Moon Monkey

It's an energizing effect, many who wouldn't have take up arms or given support previously will do so now.

I would rather they stop launching airstrikes on civilian population centers.

Yes we did so well in New Orleans last year with that didn't we? :rolleyes: (You really think its as easy as snapping your fingers do you?)

You already showed that they're nutjobs, you really think they care? My point is Israelis aren't nutjobs (I hope), so thhey shouldn't commit the same type of acts that Hezbollah would, like attacking children.

As for the Apache, according to the technical information ,its capable of targeting over 200 enemies and without revealing itself to enemy fire so the danger of ground to air missles should be minimized (unless this is another case of the Military overselling the capabilities of their weapons)

I am not sure if you understand the area we are talking about. Katrina caused damage over an area bigger than all of Isarel and Lebanon put together. Qana is 6 miles from the Israeli border, most of the battles have been taking place within 1-2 miles of the border, 20 days to move a maximum of 6 miles? No it is not as easy as snapping your fingers but I still believe something could have been done, a phone call to the lebanese government,UN,media or anyone could have saved those 60 people. Who were more likely to know they were there ,the Israelis or Hezbollah?

I am sure the Israelis would very much prefer it if Hezbollah resticted itself to military targets and didn't use human shields.

'Attacking' children? 'Targetting' civilians? Why? To create a PR disaster that could stall the whole drive to get rid of Hezbollah. Seems unlikey.

Capable as Apache are, especially in combat against armoured columns, they still make a noise ( I should know I am on the flightpath to Lebanon) and can be heard coming from miles away, making the chances of allocating 200 Hezbollah targets very unlikey. I would presume the targets would not show themselves (as opposed to a tank column who would struggle to jump into a bush or hide in a bunker/house) if apaches were about, that would be siily. Some guy with a stinger could just wait until it flies overhead and ...bang. Remember what the enemy is, a guerilla army.

When Hezbollah disarm and then if Israel continue firing missiles indiscriminatly and then start using suicide donkeys , 14 year old girl suicide bombers, popping over to Lebanon killing some Lebanese army conscripts and kidnapping others and then hiding behind civilians whilst calling for the total destruction of Lebanon and 'drive the arabs into the sea', then we can make some sort of equivalence.

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Avinash_Tyagi

I am not sure if you understand the area we are talking about. Katrina caused damage over an area bigger than all of Isarel and Lebanon put together. Qana is 6 miles from the Israeli border, most of the battles have been taking place within 1-2 miles of the border, 20 days to move a maximum of 6 miles? No it is not as easy as snapping your fingers but I still believe something could have been done, a phone call to the lebanese government,UN,media or anyone could have saved those 60 people. Who were more likely to know they were there ,the Israelis or Hezbollah?

Big time difference though in US vs. Lebanese infrastructure resources etc. more than make up for the distance issues, and you really think there aren't more than 60 people who couldn't move out of the way?

I am sure the Israelis would very much prefer it if Hezbollah resticted itself to military targets and didn't use human shields.

'Attacking' children? 'Targetting' civilians? Why? To create a PR disaster that could stall the whole drive to get rid of Hezbollah. Seems unlikey.

Whether or not it was there intent is irreleavent, the fact of the matter is thee methods all but garuntee this result.

Capable as Apache are, especially in combat against armoured columns, they still make a noise ( I should know I am on the flightpath to Lebanon) and can be heard coming from miles away, making the chances of allocating 200 Hezbollah targets very unlikey. I would presume the targets would not show themselves (as opposed to a tank column who would struggle to jump into a bush or hide in a bunker/house) if apaches were about, that would be siily. Some guy with a stinger could just wait until it flies overhead and ...bang. Remember what the enemy is, a guerilla army.

Which is why you utilize land forces to force the enemy into reveling themselves

When Hezbollah disarm and then if Israel continue firing missiles indiscriminatly and then start using suicide donkeys , 14 year old girl suicide bombers, popping over to Lebanon killing some Lebanese army conscripts and kidnapping others and then hiding behind civilians whilst calling for the total destruction of Lebanon and 'drive the arabs into the sea', then we can make some sort of equivalence.

Killing is killing regardless of the methods, whether you use airstrikes or suicide bombers you still get civilians (Children) dead

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Moon Monkey

Big time difference though in US vs. Lebanese infrastructure resources etc. more than make up for the distance issues, and you really think there aren't more than 60 people who couldn't move out of the way?

Whether or not it was there intent is irreleavent, the fact of the matter is thee methods all but garuntee this result.

Which is why you utilize land forces to force the enemy into reveling themselves

Killing is killing regardless of the methods, whether you use airstrikes or suicide bombers you still get civilians (Children) dead

Going round in circles mate.

I am sure there are more than 60, so phone the UN or Lebanese government so they can be evacuated they have had 22 days, or walk the 1000m to the Israeli border with their hands up under cover of live TV. You still haven't answered why the weak and sick, women and kids were left behind when '700,000' got out. Katrina was a natural disaster, infrastructure was in tatters. How many westerners made it out in safety? Implies routes and infrastructure were available, maybe not now but they can still walk out, its gotta be better than sitting there with Hezbollah operating upstairs.

Israeli intent is to destroy/degrade Hezbollah. I hope you have watched the recent videos of where they have been firing rockets from, there is no excuse. Hezbollah are to blame for starting this, for not clearing the battlezon of their civilians and for using the cover of houses to fire knowing full well what the response will be.

Utilise ground forces in the early stages = ambushes and many conscripts dead. Hezbollah have been preparing exactly for that for 6 years, the only time they will be revealing themselves is when ambush opurtunity presents itself. It would have been suicide to just stroll in on day 1. Blue on blue has been a problem for joint ground/air offensives in the past in Lebanon offensives as, like I said, it is a very small battlezone and can get very confusing and messy. One thing the Israelis are not is stupid. I think we are seeing many more ground offensives now that Hezbollah defenses have been degraded.

Whether there is intent to kill women and kids is not irrelevent, it is the difference.I know why Hezbollah are targeting women and kids, can you tell me why the Israelis are?

Edited by Moon Monkey

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Avinash_Tyagi

I am sure there are more than 60, so phone the UN or Lebanese government so they can be evacuated they have had 22 days, or walk the 1000m to the Israeli border with their hands up under cover of live TV. You still haven't answered why the weak and sick, women and kids were left behind when '700,000' got out. Katrina was a natural disaster, infrastructure was in tatters. How many westerners made it out in safety? Implies routes and infrastructure were available, maybe not now but they can still walk out, its gotta be better than sitting there with Hezbollah operating upstairs.

Again before the Hurricane the US had a week to evacuate people from New Oreleans, and it still didn't happen, you haven't answered why the US couldn't do it and you expect Lebanon to do it.

Israeli intent is to destroy/degrade Hezbollah. I hope you have watched the recent videos of where they have been firing rockets from, there is no excuse. Hezbollah are to blame for starting this, for not clearing the battlezon of their civilians and for using the cover of houses to fire knowing full well what the response will be.

Hezbollah may have started it but it doesn't give Israel the pass to conduct war any way they feel like.

Utilise ground forces in the early stages = ambushes and many conscripts dead. Hezbollah have been preparing exactly for that for 6 years, the only time they will be revealing themselves is when ambush opurtunity presents itself. It would have been suicide to just stroll in on day 1. Blue on blue has been a problem for joint ground/air offensives in the past in Lebanon offensives as, like I said, it is a very small battlezone and can get very confusing and messy. One thing the Israelis are not is stupid. I think we are seeing many more ground offensives now that Hezbollah defenses have been degraded.

No offense but I'd trade soldiers for Civilians on all sides, the Soldiers chose to join and know the risks when they do so, those children didn't.

Whether there is intent to kill women and kids is not irrelevent, it is the difference.I know why Hezbollah are targeting women and kids, can you tell me why the Israelis are?

Does it make a difference to the people who die, are they less dead because of the intent?

Edited by Avinash_Tyagi

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Moon Monkey

Again before the Hurricane the US had a week to evacuate people from New Oreleans, and it still didn't happen, you haven't answered why the US couldn't do it and you expect Lebanon to do it.

Hezbollah may have started it but it doesn't give Israel the pass to conduct war any way they feel like.

No offense but I'd trade soldiers for Civilians on all sides, the Soldiers chose to join and know the risks when they do so, those children didn't.

Does it make a difference to the people who die, are they less dead because of the intent?

700,000 made it out of S.Lebanon, can't have been quite as bad as Katrina then can it?

Also tens of thousands of westerners were evacuated while the intial air campaign was in full flight, again the implication is that evacuation was possible.

Why were weak/old,women/kids left behind in the battlezone?

Why does Hezbollah not check buildings they are firing from/close to? (maybe they do?)

Israel has the right to conduct its campaign to defend its citizens and minimise military casulties.

They did not choose to join, they HAVE to join. All 18-21 yr old boys and girls between 18-20. For me at 35 they are also children. Hezbollah chose to join, the people of S.Lebanon chose to support them, the government of Lebanon/Syria chose to allow them to have the area to do with as they wish and the world chose not to pay any attention till now.

No it doesn't make a difference to the dead I don't see your point. It makes a difference if the death of innocents due to Hezbollah skulking in the middle of them leads world opinion to force a halt to the campaign to remove the fundamentalist, guerilla army and its 13,000 rockets. A big difference can be made to the living in the area, on both sides of the border, if Hezbollah was disarmed.

Its a war, a difficult asymmetrical one, but a war. Find me a war when innocents didn't die.

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Avinash_Tyagi

700,000 made it out of S.Lebanon, can't have been quite as bad as Katrina then can it?

Also tens of thousands of westerners were evacuated while the intial air campaign was in full flight, again the implication is that evacuation was possible.

Or maybe they're just better at it than the US

Why were weak/old,women/kids left behind in the battlezone?

Why were children and elderly, weak left behind in New Orleans? Probably for the same reasons, they were unable to evacuate them

Why does Hezbollah not check buildings they are firing from/close to? (maybe they do?)

Israel has the right to conduct its campaign to defend its citizens and minimise military casulties.

They have the right within reason, otherwise don't be surprised when they recieve international condemmnation for killing Civilians.

They did not choose to join, they HAVE to join. All 18-21 yr old boys and girls between 18-20. For me at 35 they are also children. Hezbollah chose to join, the people of S.Lebanon chose to support them, the government of Lebanon/Syria chose to allow them to have the area to do with as they wish and the world chose not to pay any attention till now.

Wait so you don't have the right to refuse to serve? Refuseniks and all that?

No it doesn't make a difference to the dead I don't see your point. It makes a difference if the death of innocents due to Hezbollah skulking in the middle of them leads world opinion to force a halt to the campaign to remove the fundamentalist, guerilla army and its 13,000 rockets. A big difference can be made to the living in the area, on both sides of the border, if Hezbollah was disarmed. Its a war, a difficult asymmetrical one, but a war. Find me a war when innocents didn't die.

That's exactly my point, I'm sure the israeli's intent makes people more willing to die as a result of their bombings :rolleyes:

Innocents may die in War, but Israel's choice to fire into civilian areas increases the deaths, and this war won't lead to Hezbollah's disarmnament, in fact it'll likely give them more support in the long run.

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Moon Monkey

Or maybe they're just better at it than the US

Why were children and elderly, weak left behind in New Orleans? Probably for the same reasons, they were unable to evacuate them

They have the right within reason, otherwise don't be surprised when they recieve international condemmnation for killing Civilians.

Wait so you don't have the right to refuse to serve? Refuseniks and all that?

That's exactly my point, I'm sure the israeli's intent makes people more willing to die as a result of their bombings :rolleyes:

Innocents may die in War, but Israel's choice to fire into civilian areas increases the deaths, and this war won't lead to Hezbollah's disarmnament, in fact it'll likely give them more support in the long run.

Can't be evacuated between 1-6 kilometres? Can't make any contact with the outside world in any way to notify where they are?

Do you have a case of a group of 60 old/weak/disabled/women/kids being left out to die after Katrina that I could read about? The odd 1-2 oap's unwilling/unable I can see, but groups of 60? women and kids? With the men gone? Doesn't have to be an exact mirror but something close.

To be honest I don't really see the similarity in the situations except that people needed to leave an area and the ones that don't could be in trouble. In a hurricane, once you have survived, you may be able to sit tight and hope for the best as its unlikely that another one is coming soon and help would be presumed to be on its way. To sit in the middle of an active battlezone seems a very different situation.

I'm not surprised at international condemnation I just question its reasoning.

You can refuse to serve. It usually results in a mental/physical disability discharge which is kept on file and seriously ****s your future up. Family men called up after they have done their basic service would be jailed for not serving when told to report.

Simply attacking Isarel would give them more support. If this doesn't lead to Hezbollahs disarmament then either a larger regional war will result or this same scenario will be acted out again in a few years when they have rebuilt arms/defences. Israel is unlikely to pull out without completion of this mission now as the military believe they made a big mistake believing the UN/Syria/Lebanon would fulfill their sides of the bargin in 2000.

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Avinash_Tyagi

double post

Edited by Avinash_Tyagi

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Avinash_Tyagi

Can't be evacuated between 1-6 kilometres? Can't make any contact with the outside world in any way to notify where they are?

Do you have a case of a group of 60 old/weak/disabled/women/kids being left out to die after Katrina that I could read about? The odd 1-2 oap's unwilling/unable I can see, but groups of 60? women and kids? With the men gone? Doesn't have to be an exact mirror but something close.

Were you under a rock during the aftermath of the Katrina Hurricane? :blink: We had trouble getting drinking water to everyone in New Orleans, let alone other stuff. Not to mention the Nursing home patients who died of dehydration, and all the mayhem (along with a few deaths) at the Superdome, the looting, etc.

To be honest I don't really see the similarity in the situations except that people needed to leave an area and the ones that don't could be in trouble. In a hurricane, once you have survived, you may be able to sit tight and hope for the best as its unlikely that another one is coming soon and help would be presumed to be on its way. To sit in the middle of an active battlezone seems a very different situation.

To go out and try and travel in an active Battlezone is a dumb move.

I'm not surprised at international condemnation I just question its reasoning.

People tend to get upset when you kill kids, especially when the enemy wasn't there to begin with.

You can refuse to serve. It usually results in a mental/physical disability discharge which is kept on file and seriously ****s your future up. Family men called up after they have done their basic service would be jailed for not serving when told to report.

But the choice is there nonetheless

Simply attacking Isarel would give them more support. If this doesn't lead to Hezbollahs disarmament then either a larger regional war will result or this same scenario will be acted out again in a few years when they have rebuilt arms/defences. Israel is unlikely to pull out without completion of this mission now as the military believe they made a big mistake believing the UN/Syria/Lebanon would fulfill their sides of the bargin in 2000.

Yeah so what does this do except result in deaths, hezbollah will rearm thanks to Iran and Syria, israel will be forced to occupy an area full of people who don't like them, with terrorist forces gunning for them, seems to accomplish nothing worthwhile.

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Moon Monkey

Were you under a rock during the aftermath of the Katrina Hurricane? :blink: We had trouble getting drinking water to everyone in New Orleans, let alone other stuff. Not to mention the Nursing home patients who died of dehydration, and all the mayhem (along with a few deaths) at the Superdome, the looting, etc.

To go out and try and travel in an active Battlezone is a dumb move.

People tend to get upset when you kill kids, especially when the enemy wasn't there to begin with.

But the choice is there nonetheless

Yeah so what does this do except result in deaths, hezbollah will rearm thanks to Iran and Syria, israel will be forced to occupy an area full of people who don't like them, with terrorist forces gunning for them, seems to accomplish nothing worthwhile.

Again I repeat, other than the need for people to get out of an area there is no similarity.

We are talking about an area here of around 50 square miles ,not 50 miles squared and certainly not the whole of Louisiana/Tennessee etc.

The UN are right there, journalists are right there, red cross, Hezbollah, Israels border is a mile or two away, live TV camera every few hundred metres,and again 700,000 made it.

You think the Israelis are going to massacre a group of women/kids on live TV?

Where were their menfolk and why were they left behind?

Couldn't get out, in 22 days? These were not nursing home patients. A phone call would allow the area to be cleared of civilians, thats what Israel has wanted from the start hence all the warnings to get out. This area was not an active battlezone for the whole time.

The area becomes an active battlezone when Hezbollah fires from it. These people are sacrifices/martyrs. Hezbollah could check to make sure the area is clear before turning it into one.

Weren't there to begin with? :yes: Watch the videos of Hezbollah tactics.

'Choice is there nonetheless'. Very flippant and simply shows that you have absolutely no idea of what it means to live in a country that has to enforce these things on its own children to simply maintain its security. This isn't the states flying round the world having wars here and there. Its simply a necessity for the defence of its citizens.

If Hezbollah is rearmed we get all this again, maybe next time people will realise that its a job that has to be done, or maybe the time after. We will see if something worthwhile comes out of all this...its far from finished.

Have you ever spent a night listening to rockets falling outside? Try it. Maybe you would realise what Israel are dealing with and why this needs to be done.

I am having to repeat myself over and over (and so are you) so have your reply, then PM me in future, we are bogged down with a silly analogy and polarised views on the situation. Yes I agree its terrible that innocents die, yes Isreali tactics are heavy handed and if you come up with a better plan than the Israeli military to stabilise that border whilst minimising Israeli civilian and military casulties (which is their raison d'etre) let them know.

I was woken by the bangs of 5 rockets landing close again this morning and have spent many nights deep underground over the last 6 years, thats two of my reasons for wanting Hezzbollah disarmed. If you don't want them disarmed then just say so, if you do let us know how that is going to be acheived without innocent loss of life.

Btw I have said it before but I am not Jewish or Israeli, my wife is an Israeli-arab and we have no great love for the Israeli forces but just want to live here in peace and security and can't see another way this is going to happen.I am going to bed now knowing a rocket could hit us, probably wont but could, same as every night that we have stayed here since 2000.

Edited by Moon Monkey

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Avinash_Tyagi

Again I repeat, other than the need for people to get out of an area there is no similarity.

We are talking about an area here of around 50 square miles ,not 50 miles squared and certainly not the whole of Louisiana/Tennessee etc.

Excep the bombing campaign of Israel has been wider than just 50 Square miles, even northern cities have been bombed

The UN are right there, journalists are right there, red cross, Hezbollah, Israels border is a mile or two away, live TV camera every few hundred metres,and again 700,000 made it.

You think the Israelis are going to massacre a group of women/kids on live TV?

They did or haven't you read the news report

Where were their menfolk and why were they left behind?

Couldn't get out, in 22 days? These were not nursing home patients. A phone call would allow the area to be cleared of civilians, thats what Israel has wanted from the start hence all the warnings to get out. This area was not an active battlezone for the whole time.

I don' think you understand the logistical issues involved with moving Hundreds of Thousands of people while under assault and many major cities, highways, bridges being bombed, you really think they wont miss a bunch of people?

The area becomes an active battlezone when Hezbollah fires from it. These people are sacrifices/martyrs. Hezbollah could check to make sure the area is clear before turning it into one.

Weren't there to begin with? :yes: Watch the videos of Hezbollah tactics.

Red Cross says no Hezbollah rockets were fired from Qana

'Choice is there nonetheless'. Very flippant and simply shows that you have absolutely no idea of what it means to live in a country that has to enforce these things on its own children to simply maintain its security. This isn't the states flying round the world having wars here and there. Its simply a necessity for the defence of its citizens.

And yet they made the choice, they accept the risks

If Hezbollah is rearmed we get all this again, maybe next time people will realise that its a job that has to be done, or maybe the time after. We will see if something worthwhile comes out of all this...its far from finished.

The track record in the Middle east makes me pessimistic that any real good will come of this

Have you ever spent a night listening to rockets falling outside? Try it. Maybe you would realise what Israel are dealing with and why this needs to be done.

Doesn't that give the Lebanese a reason to want to strike back at Israel via hezbollah, aren't you just continuing the cycle.

I am having to repeat myself over and over (and so are you) so have your reply, then PM me in future, we are bogged down with a silly analogy and polarised views on the situation.

I have to disagree, you seem to think that the Lebanese evacuation should have been so easy, when everything shows that it would be anything but easy. That's why I pointed to the New Orleans situation to show that its not at all easy to move large numbers of people even when you have the infrastructure and resources, and the time/warning as well.

I was woken by the bangs of 5 rockets landing close again this morning and have spent many nights deep underground over the last 6 years, thats two of my reasons for wanting Hezzbollah disarmed. If you don't want them disarmed then just say so, if you do let us know how that is going to be acheived without innocent loss of life.

I'd love to see Hezbollah disarmed, but i'd also want to see Israel conduct this war without targeting areas where civilians might be

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AROCES

It's an energizing effect, many who wouldn't have take up arms or given support previously will do so now.

Good, let those who really hate Israel come out. They get mad with Israel but do nothing about the Hezbollah and their militant activities. Who cares then if they get mad?

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Bella-Angelique

Red Cross says no Hezbollah rockets were fired from Qana

Well whoever stated that have been proven liars.

Rockets being fired from there right beside a large building are on tape.

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Moon Monkey

Excep the bombing campaign of Israel has been wider than just 50 Square miles, even northern cities have been bombed

They did or haven't you read the news report

I don' think you understand the logistical issues involved with moving Hundreds of Thousands of people while under assault and many major cities, highways, bridges being bombed, you really think they wont miss a bunch of people?

Red Cross says no Hezbollah rockets were fired from Qana

And yet they made the choice, they accept the risks

The track record in the Middle east makes me pessimistic that any real good will come of this

Doesn't that give the Lebanese a reason to want to strike back at Israel via hezbollah, aren't you just continuing the cycle.

I have to disagree, you seem to think that the Lebanese evacuation should have been so easy, when everything shows that it would be anything but easy. That's why I pointed to the New Orleans situation to show that its not at all easy to move large numbers of people even when you have the infrastructure and resources, and the time/warning as well.

I'd love to see Hezbollah disarmed, but i'd also want to see Israel conduct this war without targeting areas where civilians might be

Yes a large area have suffered bombings but most of the ones north of Tyre, not including S.Beirut were surgical on the infrastructure to stop rearming or known Hezbollah buildings. We all know where the main campaign is.

Yes, again, some could get left behind, out of more than 700,000, but any contact with any organisation could have seen their safe evacuation. They could have walked to Israel under live TV cameras and have been well looked after, its gotta be better than sitting there.

Do you have a link to this purposeful live massacre of which you talk, or are you still talking about Qana when the Israelis had no idea that people were there other than rocket-firers?

The Red Cross are talking bollox if that is what they really said, we've seen videos, even if not from that exact building rockets have been fired from Qana. Fact. The UN accepts that is what Hezbollah do, Wait till the dust settles and the UN/journos can have a good look round.

The track record in peace agreements with Jordan/Egypt has been good. Fundamentalism gone wild is the difference here.

After 18 years of occupation and many deaths on both sides the Shia and Israelis are not going to be friends, just not fighting is enough. They can all join the political wing of Hezbollah but 13,000 rockets pointing this way and indescriminate cross border attacks are a different matter.

You would like to see Hezbollah disarmed? How? Ask them nicely? They were supposed to have been disarmed 6 years ago.

Not targetting areas where civilians MAY be....well thats Lebanon then, unless Hezbollah want to fight in open fields, which I am sure they dont. That would be ideal for the Israelis.

I am starting to think you are on a wind-up. Either that or you are exactly the type of person Hezbollah is thriving on, appeasement/*****-footing/PC/liberal. I haven't heard you say a bad word about the most fearsome fundamentalist terrorist army in the world, who started this and chose the battlefield without checking their own civilians are out of there. No-one wants innocents killed, only Hezbollah benefit. Their manifesto recognises no agreement/peace treaty with the zionists and calls for Israels total destruction. After Qana the TV here was full of recriminations, no-one here wants this kind of thing to happen again so if there are more large groups stupidly sitting there, TELL SOMEONE !!

Edited by Moon Monkey

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truthorder

How the hell this turned into Katrina in the U.S., which was thousands of miles away from the mid-east, is beyond me.

It's time to get back to the business at hand.

Hezbollah attacked Israel first FROM Lebanon.

Israel HAS EVERY RIGHT TO DEFEND ITSELF AND ITS CITIZENS.

If Lebanon wants to help out, it can by ELIMINATING HEZBOLLAH.

The trick here is that the Lebanese government says that it has nothing to do with Hezbollah, yet there are several members of Hezbollah within its own government.

I don't have a problem with that at all. If people want to elect them, then that's fine. That's part of the democratic process.

We have militias in America too. All over the place. They have a right to bear arms.

But do you think for one second that if they started bombing and trying to infiltrate my state that I wouldn't stand up and fight against them? Just as they have a right to defend themselves, I have a right to defend myself as well.

If the Lebanese people don't want this to continue, then they would have, or SHOULD have risen up against the very group that got them into this in the first place. They have allowed this group to live in their land. It's kind of hard to go and turn it all back on Israel now.

There is one big problem in this world, and it is Islamic extremism. Until the rest of the world comes together and stops it, it is going to continue.

But here's what it is in a nutshell:

LEBANON is attacking Israel and Israel has EVERY RIGHT to defend itself.

Don't say it's just Hezbollah. It's LEBANON. If the Lebanese wanted to do something about it, they could. Instead, they choose to put blame on Israel for something they could have stopped a LONG time ago.

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Bone_Collector

What your news channels do not show you...

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Monday, July 17, 2006: Kiryat shmona

Israeli girls write messages on a shell at a heavy artillery position firing into civilians inside Lebanon. :huh:

There are several other pics with me -all very very disturbing but I'd rather not share them here. They can churn your internals, trust me.

Blind air strikes and deaths of innocent civilians can never be justified. NEVER.

Edited by Bone_Collector

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__Kratos__

What your news channels do not show you...

Monday, July 17, 2006: Kiryat shmona

Israeli girls write messages on a shell at a heavy artillery position firing into civilians inside Lebanon. :huh:

There are several other pics with me -all very very disturbing but I'd rather not share them here. They can churn your internals, trust me.

Why they don't show you, you ask? The news isn't in the habit of letting reporters do photo ops to get the wrong idea and then put them out to the public generally...

Linky

The reporters asked the kids to do it for a photo or two.

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Bone_Collector

Why they don't show you, you ask? The news isn't in the habit of letting reporters do photo ops to get the wrong idea and then put them out to the public generally...

Oh, and the Israeli soldier(on the tank in the first pic) isn't in the habit too perhaps? :rolleyes:

The reporters asked the kids to do it for a photo or two.

Kratos, SERIOUSLY, do YOU believe that, let alone expect others to?

You can see soldiers, you can see parents letting them do it and yet you tell me it's just the media's doing?

Btw, that link's just a blog not a fact file. Infact, you'll find quite a few people in the same blog saying that the pics weren't set up by the reporters.

Edited by Bone_Collector

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__Kratos__

Oh, and the Israeli soldier(on the tank in the first pic) isn't in the habit too perhaps? :rolleyes:

Kratos, SERIOUSLY, do YOU believe that, let alone expect others to?

You can see soldiers, you can see parents letting them do it and yet you tell me it's just the media's doing?

Btw, that link's just a blog not a fact file. Infact, you'll find quite a few people in the same blog saying that the pics weren't set up by the reporters.

*shrugs* Believe what you want...

I know if a terrorist group that was soley made to kill me was firing thousands of rockets on my country, I would like a piece of my artwork or writing to be the one that rips through out their body killing them.

Kids hating terrorists... How wrong is that really? :rolleyes:

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Moon Monkey

*shrugs* Believe what you want...

I know if a terrorist group that was soley made to kill me was firing thousands of rockets on my country, I would like a piece of my artwork or writing to be the one that rips through out their body killing them.

Kids hating terrorists... How wrong is that really? :rolleyes:

Been thru this in another thread weeks ago. Those kids had been in a bombshelter for 48 hours and were encouraged by journalists to write messages. Mainly they said things like "this is to Nasrallah" there was nothing written against the Lebanese people.

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Clocker

Been thru this in another thread weeks ago. Those kids had been in a bombshelter for 48 hours and were encouraged by journalists to write messages. Mainly they said things like "this is to Nasrallah" there was nothing written against the Lebanese people.

I still think they should keep the kids out of this kind of stuff. I mean no matter what's going on in a conflict or who's "fault" it is, the kids should be kept out. Sure, one might think that he'd want to send them a greeting as a kid, but can't help but to think that it may well affect their opinions when they grow up. I mean, I wouldn't exactly like to see the next generation of Israeli people being anti-Lebanese (even more so than the present generation that is). I don't know if it will actually happen but I do know that kids are influenced very easily.

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Celumnaz

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/745287.html

Hezbollah reports becoming less and less believable

By Yoav Stern

If Hezbollah-run media are to be believed, then 35 Israel Defense Forces soldiers were killed or wounded in Aita Shaab, militants downed an Israeli helicopter and destroyed a house in which IDF soldiers were hiding, and IDF troops are always hit in the back because they are running away.

All these statements are baseless because - despite the impression Hezbollah has made for straight talk - credibility is not its strong suit.

Hezbollah's reports have become less and less believable in recent days. On Monday, Al-Manar television - the central component of Hezbollah's well-oiled media empire - reported that the organization had destroyed an Israeli ship off the coast of Tyre, which had some 50 sailors aboard - a charge the IDF dismissed completely.

It's not clear what incident, if any, the report was referring to, and the Arab world has been asking questions. Al-Arabiya television asked Mahmoud Kamati, a member of the Hezbollah political bureau, about the Hezbollah claim and he repeated that an Israeli ship had been hit, but said no pictures were broadcast because visibility was poor.

Hezbollah's leader, Hassan Nasrallah, is a superb tool for the propaganda machine. Nasrallah, 46, is one of the most impressive speakers in the entire Middle East. He is a virtuoso of the Arabic language, although he doesn't forget to spice his comments with a few words in the Lebanese dialect. It nearly always seems as though he is speaking about the most important matters in an offhand way, but he is really getting his listeners to follow his thought process.

"I sometimes take the tape of his comments and watch it, for pleasure," said a Haifa resident who has been forced to go down to the nearest bomb shelter every few hours over the last few weeks. "He is simply an excellent speaker."

Hezbollah's media empire - which includes the Al-Nur radio station and the Web site moqawama.net - has been an inseparable part of the psychological war. Sometimes, Hezbollah also transmits its messages through other media, such as the Iranian television station Al-Alam. The crown jewel of the empire, Al-Manar, is broadcast in Lebanon and throughout the Arab world, by satellite.

Al-Manar, all the time

At every stage of the fighting, Al-Manar was the station that broadcast Hezbollah's messages. Its role in the war began the morning of July 12, when Hezbollah abducted IDF soldiers Eldad Regev and Ehud Goldwasser. Al-Manar was the first station to report the kidnapping, about two hours after it took place. Since the fighting began, the pronouncements of Al-Manar have had a major influence on other media.

"Al-Manar has had an enormous impact on all the Arab press, and in effect on the Hebrew press as well," said Amir Levy from Satlink Communications, which monitors Arab-language media.

Although there were a few slight technical glitches in Al-Manar's broadcasting after its south Beirut offices were destroyed, overall it continued broadcasting normally and showcasing its high technical standards. "It is very high-quality work," said Levy.

"They always broadcast new clips, update the subtitles in real time, broadcast from the field via satellites. It's a very impressive broadcasting quality."

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/745828.html

Lebanese hospital: Number of casualties from Qana air strike is 28, not 52

By The Associated Press and Haaretz Service

A Tyre hospital on Thursday revised the number of casualties resulting from Israel's air strike on the south Lebanese village of Qana from 52 down to 28.

On Wednesday, Human Rights Watch questioned the death toll in the Qana attack. The international group listed the names of 28 known dead from the attack and said that 13 others were missing and might still be buried under the rubble. The discrepancy was attributed to an assumption that only nine of the people who took shelter in the basement of the building survived, but it emerged that at least 22 escaped, the group said.

An Israel Defense Forces' inquiry on the bombing of a building in Qana that killed the 28 civilians admits a mistake but charges that Hezbollah guerrillas used civilians as shields for their rocket attacks, according to a statement released early Thursday.

Israel Air Force planes attacked an apartment house in Qana in the early hours of Sunday. The house collapsed, and rescue workers pulled the bodies of civilians, most of them women and children, out of the rubble. An international outcry led Israel to call a halt to its airstrikes in Lebanon for 48 hours and increased pressure on Israel to agree to a cease-fire in its three-week offensive against Hezbollah.

In a statement summarizing the inquiry report, the Israeli military said Israel did not know there were civilians in the building. "Had the information indicated that civilians were present ... the attack would not have been carried out," the statement said.

The bombing followed guidelines regarding attacking "suspicious structures" in villages where civilians have been warned to evacuate, the statement said, adding that Hezbollah forces "use civilian structures inside villages to store weaponry and hide in after launching rocket attacks." The statement said more than 150 rockets have been launched from Qana and the area around it since July 12, when the current conflict erupted.

As a result of the incident, the statement said, the guidelines would be evaluated and updated.

IDF Chief of Staff Lt.-Gen. Dan Halutz apologized for the loss of civilian life but charged that Hezbollah "uses civilians as human shields and intentionally operates from within civilian villages and infrastructure."

Human Rights Watch called for an impartial international investigation of the incident.

Edited by Celumnaz

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Bella-Angelique

Kids hating terrorists... How wrong is that really? :rolleyes:

It seems to be foreign and strange to them, while we have been putting our sigs on everything as far back as the cannon used in the Civil War, that I know of.

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