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MaNgO_gIrL_hErE

Israeli air strike kills 54

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__Kratos__

Even the children?

Also killing everyone in the neighborhood would probably get you arrested, or at least on America's most wanted ;):P

If I had to.

Remember... There is no police or FBI here... Why I have to either let my child go or raise some hell to get him back.

This is what Israel is doing. The people that were suppose to smash Hizbollah let them grow and thrive for all these years and years... Now they poked the giant and now there action against them being taken.

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Avinash_Tyagi

If I had to.

Remember... There is no police or FBI here... Why I have to either let my child go or raise some hell to get him back.

This is what Israel is doing. The people that were suppose to smash Hizbollah let them grow and thrive for all these years and years... Now they poked the giant and now there action against them being taken.

Problem with Killing people not involved is you risk raising the ire of people who live in nearby neighborhoods, which is what is happening to Israel, they're going to end up with a failure on their hands, Hezbollah will remain largely intact, and Israel will be forced to accept a cease-fire

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Moon Monkey

so did the 45,000 palestines that died in the last 4 years kill them selves?

You are talking crap mate. Israel holds 3 Lebanese prisoners, look it up its in the threads, 1 was a guy who beat a 4 year old girl to death with his rifle butt....what a soldier!!

45,000 palestinians killed by Israel over the last 4 years?....are you sure.....evidence?

Recon troops going into Lebanon?...are you sure.....maybe drones and flyovers, but recon troops?...evidence

2,000,000 muslims live happily within Israels borders,they have peace with Egypt and Jordan and agreements with a number of gulf states. Its just fundamentalist nutjobs causing the sh**, and people like you beleiving and spreading lies and propaganda fuel their fire. :yes:

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Bella-Angelique

(btw, Bella... I'm starting a petition to get you to bring back your old sig. :D:lol::devil: )

:w00t:

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explorer

According to the CIA World Fact Book, 16% of Israel's 6.3 million population are Muslim. It's closer to 1 million muslims in Israel.

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Moon Monkey

According to the CIA World Fact Book, 16% of Israel's 6.3 million population are Muslim. It's closer to 1 million muslims in Israel.

Fair enough they are probably right I shouldn't have said muslims I meant arabs, add on druze, cristians and beduin. Still a million muslims is hardly insignificant in such a small country ( also estimates say there are 180,000 palestinians living illegally in israel) and my point about Israels ability to live in peace with muslims stands.

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Hermetic Hermit

I'll throw my words in then using my example...

I'd kill the entire neighborhood to get my loved one back. I mean... the neighborhood supported the neighbor all this time... They are part of the problem - not part of the solution.

Exactly the attitude Hamas and Hizballah have, great job justifying their behaviour and the behaviour of Israel. Israel currently holds approx 9000 Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails. You might say they are all terrorists but keep in mind Israel sporadically releases hundreds at a time in negotiations.

Hamas demanded the release of all women and children from Israeli jails in return for Israel's captured soldier, Israel invaded Gaza to get him back. Hamas kills and "kidnaps" the neighbor's "son" to get their "kidnapped" "family" back, just like you would have done. Hizballah in the past has demanded the release of Palestinian prisoners, as well, in return for kidnapped Israelis and Israel has released hundreds, thousands, in exchanges in the past. Hizballah is like the "neighbor" on the other side of the fence willing to kill and kidnap to get "family" back.

So they all kidnap and they all kill to get theirs back, just like you said you would do. So why is Israel justified but the others aren't? Is it perspective?

A side note, you know the commando raid Israel did in Baalbek the other day that netted 5 "tasty fish", as Olmert said, do you know who they are? Or were you happy just swallowing Israel's story whole? I looked them up, very lame example of kidnapping the neighbor's "family".

This is the exact attitude that has made matters worse in the region. The same attitude that the fundamentalists on both side share.

Edited by Hermetic Hermit

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__Kratos__

Problem with Killing people not involved is you risk raising the ire of people who live in nearby neighborhoods, which is what is happening to Israel, they're going to end up with a failure on their hands, Hezbollah will remain largely intact, and Israel will be forced to accept a cease-fire

The neighbors have all known about it for over 2 decades... A little late now to voice concern because they didn't care enough to get the ball rolling.

:w00t:

:P

Difference? :blink: Israel is a country protecting it's self. Hizbollah, Hamas and the rest of the idiot groups over there are terrorist groups designed with the sole purpose to destroy Israel and it's people.

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MrVelvet

What kills me is that the Arabs think that the Israelis are actually going somewhere, and that this is a fight that can be won through confrontation and war...Nope..not gonna happen. Israel has nukes and they are not going anywhere anytime soon...The Palestinians are unwilling to live with Israel (Didn't Israel give Palestine 98% of the land that they wanted?)..Israel's tired of this **** and should be...Can you say "National wall building day?..."

Looks like a long hot summer (and winter)... :sm

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Hermetic Hermit

Difference? :blink: Israel is a country protecting it's self. Hizbollah, Hamas and the rest of the idiot groups over there are terrorist groups designed with the sole purpose to destroy Israel and it's people.

So you admit it is not what they do but who is doing it that makes it right or wrong?

Isn't Hamas and Hizballah part of their country's government? Why yes they are so now they are in the same boat as Israel. See no difference.

Calling people idiots isn't enough to convince me that they are wrong for doing something Israel is in the right to do. Either they are both wrong or both right in what they do, just as you said you would to if it came to that.

I personally don't care what each side thinks is neccesary to accomplish their goals and what strategies they use but when one side is given the moral high-ground because they have a better PR campaign, I have a problem. I say f'it, who cares who are the goodies and the baddies, let them fight it out without all of the illusory moral superiority.

Has anyone noticed the lack of suicide bombers in the present conflict? Give a fighter a missile and they'll stop blowing themselves up.

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MaNgO_gIrL_hErE

Aid lifeline broken after Israelis hit highway

Bombs kill 33 farm workers in Beka'a valley in one of war's deadliest strikes

Israeli aircraft struck deep into Lebanon yesterday, killing at least 33 Syrian Kurdish farm workers and destroying four bridges on a key aid route leading north from Beirut.

The attack on the farm workers, who were loading peaches and plums on to trucks at Qaa in the north of the Beka'a valley, was one of the single deadliest strikes of the war.

It came as Hizbullah demonstrated that its ability to strike at Israel remained largely intact, by firing more than 200 rockets at northern towns and villages, killing three civilians and injuring dozens. Two rockets landed deeper in Israel than any previously, hitting near the city of Hadera, 50 miles from the border.

In Qaa, the bodies of the dead were laid in a row at the scene of the bombing. Some were covered with blankets, others lay in the clothes in which they died. Baskets and fruit were strewn around them. Another 20 people were wounded and taken to hospital across the nearby border into Syria. Israel said its aircraft had targeted a Hizbullah weapons storage site in the Beka'a.

The Syrian minister of information, Mohsen Bilal, appeared on state TV late last night, saying "Syrian blood is now mixed with Lebanese blood. The United States and Condoleezza Rice are responsible for this crime."

UN aid officials said the bombing of the main coastal highway north from Beirut to the Syrian border earlier in the day had cut an "umbilical cord" of aid supplies. Four civilians were killed and others injured - the first time the Christian heartland of Lebanon has been hit. The bombing halted a convoy of eight lorries carrying 150 tonnes of relief shipments, though aid was arriving by air and by sea.

In south Lebanon, meanwhile, ground battles rocked several villages. Three Israeli soldiers were killed as troops fought to seize a "security zone" along the border. Reports last night said seven civilians had been killed and 10 wounded in an air strike on a house in Taibe, in the heart of the battlefield. Some reports said that 57 people were buried under the rubble.

Tony Blair yesterday delayed his departure for a holiday in the Caribbean for what Downing Street called logistical rather than symbolic reasons. He believes the weekend is "crucial" to achieving a peace deal and, though he has an office at his holiday base, making calls on a long-haul flight would difficult. Yesterday he worked on drafts of a UN resolution which Downing Street sees as the cue for a "freezing" of the Israeli action, ahead of further talks on sending an international "stabilisation" force to southern Lebanon.

Diplomacy continues, but differences remain, particularly between Washington and Paris, which will head an international force. The US wants it deployed immediately after a truce, but France wants a proper ceasefire before its troops arrive.

Meanwhile, the humanitarian situation in Lebanon was worsening. Yesterday's air strikes cut the remaining major road from Beirut to Syria. Lebanon said 71 bridges across the country have now been hit. Last night, the World Food Programme, coordinating relief efforts, said bombing of the highway north of Beirut "could effectively sever the vital humanitarian lifeline between Lebanon and the outside world".

Convoys from Syria had to be cancelled. Heavy bombing of the southern suburbs of Beirut also forced WFP to postpone a convoy for Tyre and Rashidiyeh. "Tens of thousands of people remain trapped in the region without any outside assistance. They are in urgent need of food, clean water, medical supplies, fuel and shelter," a WFP spokesman said.

Israel's military have defended its strikes on Lebanese infrastructure, saying it is trying to obstruct Hizbullah's logistic operations, and lorries near the Syrian border may carry weapons to re-arm Hizbullah, long an ally of Syria. Strikes in the Beka'a had targeted two buildings that military intelligence showed were used for storing weapons, they said yesterday.

In Israel there is growing concern about the increasing casualties - seven soldiers in two days - while this week has seen the heaviest civilian casualties from rockets.

Source

:angry2:

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Avinash_Tyagi

I still don't see any benefit for Israel from their actions, Hezbollah seems like it'll ememerge from this war in a stronger psosition in Lebabnon, and Israel is just increasing the hatred in that region.

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AROCES

I still don't see any benefit for Israel from their actions, Hezbollah seems like it'll ememerge from this war in a stronger psosition in Lebabnon, and Israel is just increasing the hatred in that region.

Iran is behind Hezbollah and Israel believe this is a start of an effort by Iran to wipe them out. The thing is most Arab State I would say would QUIETLY rather see Israel Triumph than Iran for they know Israel would never invade them or take over their country. They are more afraid of Mahmound! Just imagine what he would do to Saudi Arabia, Dubai, Qatar, Egypt, Jordan or Kuwait for it's relationship with the Western World.

He will give them an ultimatum of side with him or else!

Edited by AROCES

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SnakeProphet

You mean like the Us did with the rest of the world. They didn't invade them either, did they?

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Cinders

I just saw the breaking news this morning on MSNBC and FOX and see a small mention of this BREAKING NEWS on CNN:

BREAKING NEWS: The United States and France agree a draft U.N. Security Council resolution aimed at ending the fighting between Israel and Hezbollah, news agencies report. CNN working to confirm.

http://www.cnn.com

On MSNBC.com it shows this:

BREAKING NEWS: Officials: U.S., France agree on U.N. resolution to end Mideast fighting

We will have to watch for video and report updates on this today!

EDIT: UPDATE on this news found:

U.S., France Agree on Draft Cease-Fire Resolution to End Mideast Violence

Saturday , August 05, 2006

Associated Press

UNITED NATIONS — The United States and France agreed Saturday on a draft U.N. Security Council resolution that calls for an end to the fighting between Israel and Lebanese Hezbollah guerrillas, but would allow Israel to defend itself if attacked, officials said.

U.S. Ambassador John Bolton and French President Jacques Chirac's office confirmed that agreement had been reached.

The full 15-nation Security Council was expected to meet later Saturday to discuss the resolution, and it was likely to be adopted in the next couple of days, Bolton said.

An official with knowledge of the document said the draft calls for a "full cessation of violence" between Israel and Hezbollah, but would allow Israel the right to launch strikes if Hezbollah attacks it.

"It does not say immediate cessation of violence," the official said, speaking on condition of anonymity because the draft had not yet been made public.

That appeared to be a major victory for the U.S. and Israel. France and many other nations had demanded an immediate halt to the fighting without conditions as a way to push the region back toward stability.

The French presidential palace in Paris said a deal was reached on a resolution that seeks a total halt to hostilities and would work toward a permanent cease-fire and a long-term solution.

Bolton said the resolution would be the first of two. He said this one deals with the immediate issue of the fighting. The second would likely spell out a larger political framework for peace between Israel and Hezbollah.

"We're prepared to continue to work tomorrow in order to make progress on the adoption of the resolution but we have reached agreement and we're now ready to proceed," Bolton said. "We're prepared to move as quickly as other members of the council want to move."

Link: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,207168,00.html

Also, the news is found here along WITH AN AP VIDEO brief:

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/MID...EMPLATE=DEFAULT

Edited by Cinders

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AROCES

You mean like the Us did with the rest of the world. They didn't invade them either, did they?

YUP! They engage them in commerce, they trade with them and infuence them to be a free and democratic country. That bothers you???

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Heru

Which one do you guys think is more honorable.

Straping a bomb on you and blowing yourself up and killing a 100 civilians?

OR

Launching a missle and killing a 100 civilians with no harm done to you?

I think there both cowerdly and pathetic but I say a suicide bomb takes more courage then pushing a button.

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SnakeProphet

You mistake ignorance for courage. But then again, they're one and the same thing anyway.

YUP! They engage them in commerce, they trade with them and infuence them to be a free and democratic country. That bothers you???

I'm bothered by your belief, that Iran is willing and is actually capable of invading all those nations you listed. Once again, Iran isn't as stupid as people might think.

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Cinders

More updates on the news today - giving insight to a bit more on details:

U.N. Draft Breaks France-U.S. Impasse

By NICK WADHAMS , 08.05.2006, 04:35 PM

Associated Press

The U.S. and France agreed Saturday on a draft Security Council resolution that seeks an immediate halt to fighting in Lebanon, breaking a three-week impasse caused partly by Washington's refusal to press Israel to end its offensive against Hezbollah.

The resolution would chart a path toward a lasting peace with a cease-fire monitored by international troops. If passed, it would be the most significant international response to the crisis and raise hopes of ending combat that has killed at least 600 and left Lebanon in tatters.

The resolution must now go before the full 15-nation Security Council and gain Israeli and Lebanese acceptance - and initial comments indicated that would not be easy.

Despite the agreement, fighting raged on. Israeli naval commandos struck the southern port of Tyre before dawn, while Israeli air raids killed at least eight people across Lebanon and a rain of Hezbollah rockets on northern Israel killed three civilians.

Hezbollah warned it won't abide by the resolution unless Israel withdraws from Lebanon entirely, while one Israeli official called the draft an "important development" but vowed to press on with the offensive for now.

The text also ignored three Lebanese demands: setting a timetable for an Israeli withdrawal from the south, lifting Israel's full blockade of Lebanon and putting the disputed Chebaa Farms area under U.N. control.

President Bush is "happy with the progress being made" at the United Nations, but knows cementing a cease-fire will not be easy, White House press secretary Tony Snow said.

"I don't think he has any delusions about what lies ahead," said Snow, who was with the president on his vacation at his private ranch in Crawford, Texas.

British Prime Minister Tony Blair praised the resolution as "an important first step in bringing this tragic crisis to an end."

"The priority now is to get the resolution adopted as soon as possible, and then to work for a permanent cease-fire and achieve the conditions in Lebanon and Israel which will prevent a recurrence," Blair said.

The Security Council convened later Saturday to discuss the draft. Diplomats said the document was likely to be adopted early next week at a meeting attended by the foreign ministers of the 15 council members.

The resolution's central demand was for "a full cessation of hostilities based upon, in particular, the immediate cessation by Hezbollah of all attacks and the immediate cessation by Israel of all offensive military operations."

The document then charted a detailed path for the two sides to follow to achieve a lasting peace. It envisioned a second resolution in a week or two that would authorize an international military force for the Israel-Lebanon frontier.

Among those steps would be the creation of a large buffer zone in southern Lebanon free of both Israeli troops and Hezbollah militants, monitored by the Lebanese army and international peacekeepers.

The draft also called for Hezbollah to be disarmed and for Lebanon's borders to be solidified, especially in the disputed Chebaa Farms area, occupied by Israel since 1967.

Another element was an arms embargo that would block any entity in Lebanon except the national government from obtaining weapons from abroad. That was aimed at blocking the sale or supply of arms to Hezbollah from Iran and Syria, which are believed to be the militia's main backers.

The resolution would put significant pressure on Lebanon's government, which ceded control of the south to Hezbollah.

"This is not a resolution that provides the comprehensive solution," U.S. Ambassador John Bolton said. "I'm sure there are aspects of it that are displeasing to almost everyone but the point is this is a way to get started and that's what we hope to do."

The draft's chief goal is to ensure that southern Lebanon does not slip back into the same state it was in before Israel's offensive, which began after Hezbollah guerrillas raided northern Israel on July 12 in fighting that left eight soldiers dead and two captured.

"Who could imagine that such a drama could happen again?" French Ambassador Jean-Marc de La Sabliere said. "It would be irresponsible."

The U.S. and France had to compromise to get the draft adopted.

Washington backed off its demand for a package of immediate steps, including the deployment of the international force in conjunction with a cease-fire.

France gave up its desire for a blanket halt to violence, agreeing for the resolution to give Israel the right to conduct defensive operations - a term that the Israeli military could interpret broadly in response to any Hezbollah attack.

The draft made no direct demand for the release of the two captured Israeli soldiers. It only emphasized the need to address the causes "that have given rise to the current crisis," including freeing the abductees.

The Security Council has made the same demands previously - most recently with resolution 1559 in September 2004 - but Hezbollah has refused to obey.

"What we're trying to do is lay in the foundation so that you can finally enact the provisions of U.N. Security Council resolution 1559," Snow told reporters in Texas.

The resolution did not address a fundamental disagreement between Hezbollah and Israel, which occupied southern Lebanon in 1982-2000.

It asked U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan to play a key role in securing Israeli and Lebanese agreement to the principles for peace, giving him one month to work with the parties to come up with new proposals to implement the demands spelled out in resolution 1559 and elsewhere.

Hezbollah has said it would refuse to abide by any cease-fire until Israel withdraws from Lebanon, and Israel says it won't pull its troops out of the south until a significant international military force deploys in the region.

"We will abide by it on condition that no Israeli soldier remains inside Lebanese land. If they stay, we will not abide by it," said Mohammed Fneish, one of two Hezbollah Cabinet ministers in the Lebanese government.

In Israel, Tourism Minister Isaac Herzog told Israel TV's Channel One that the agreement was an "important development," but said Israel would not halt its assault on Hezbollah for the time being. Still, he appeared to acknowledge the draft meant Israel's offensive would have to wind down soon.

"We still have the coming days for many military missions, but we have to know that the timetable is becoming increasingly shorter," he said.

U.S. Assistant Secretary of State David Welch also met with Lebanese officials in Beirut trying to pave the way for ending hostilities. He talked with Prime Minister Fuad Saniora and Parliament Speaker Nabih Berri, a prominent Shiite who has been negotiating on behalf of Hezbollah.

While meeting fierce resistance in southern Lebanon, the Israeli army claimed progress. Commanders said Israeli troops had knocked out half of Hezbollah's long-range rockets and seized positions in or near 20 towns and villages as part its drive to carve out a five-mile zone along the border free of Hezbollah fighters.

"We plan to carry out the whole mission," Defense Minister Amir Peretz said. "Hezbollah must not have illusions that we plan to give in."

Source: http://www.forbes.com/home/feeds/ap/2006/0.../ap2929565.html

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AROCES

You mistake ignorance for courage. But then again, they're one and the same thing anyway.

YUP! They engage them in commerce, they trade with them and infuence them to be a free and democratic country. That bothers you???

I'm bothered by your belief, that Iran is willing and is actually capable of invading all those nations you listed. Once again, Iran isn't as stupid as people might think.

No Iran is not Stupid, fanatic is more of a word for them. Dangeroulsy a fanatic.

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Moon Monkey

Which one do you guys think is more honorable.

Straping a bomb on you and blowing yourself up and killing a 100 civilians?

OR

Launching a missle and killing a 100 civilians with no harm done to you?

I think there both cowerdly and pathetic but I say a suicide bomb takes more courage then pushing a button.

Honor? What is this King Arthur and the round table?

A pilot who kills 100 civilians has to live with the guilt and undergo an investigation.

A suicide bomber reckons he will be partying away with a sackful of young virgins. They don't care about dying in a suicide mission, they want to...don't you get it yet?

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Mekorig

Moon Monkey: They get the virgins after blowing up thenself killings has many enemies they can kill. The dony suicide by the virgins, but for the chance of killing more enmies. After all they fight an asimetrical war. Bombs and AK-47 vs F-16 and Merkavas IV.

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Hermetic Hermit

Hizbullah rockets cannot be fired from buildings

The Irish Times

Hizbullah has fired almost 2,000 missiles into Israel over the last fortnight, killing more than 50 Israelis and forcing almost one million into air raid shelters.

Despite this provocation, however, Israel's response has been sharply criticised as "disproportionate" in many quarters. In the aftermath of the deaths of dozens of innocent Lebanese women and children at Qana yesterday, even the US has urged the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) to modify their responses to Hizbullah's attacks.

IDF spokespeople are maintaining that Hizbullah had been mounting missile attacks on Israeli territory from Qana in recent days. The IDF has claimed it targeted the three-storey house in Qana at 1.30am local time in the belief it contained a Hizbullah "asset".

Any investigation into the targeting of this house will have to consider precisely what kind of Hizbullah "asset" could possibly have been hidden in a modest, low-rise building among the narrow streets of a village such as Qana.

The type of missiles being fired by Hizbullah at Israeli cities cannot be fired from within houses, mosques, hospitals or even UN facilities as has been suggested by the IDF. Due to the massive "back-blast" caused by the rocket launchers of these missiles, they can only be fired from open ground. To fire them from within a building would result in the instant death of the missile crew and probable destruction of the missile before launch. Most of the missiles are truck-mounted and are fired - on open ground - from the backs of flat-bedded trucks or larger four-wheel-drive vehicles.

When fired, these missiles generate an enormous flare of light, heat and sound energy - a heat and light signature which is readily detected by IDF target-acquisition systems. Accurate retaliatory fire can be directed at Hizbullah launch sites by IDF aircraft and ground artillery in seconds. Such a reaction would be considered by international military norms to be proportionate and within the general "rules of engagement".

In these circumstances, having fired their missiles, Hizbullah tends to disperse as rapidly as possible. It is unlikely that a flat-bedded truck with a multilaunch rocket-system mounted on it could be easily and rapidly hidden in a village as small as Qana. Nor is it likely that such a truck-mounted weapon or four-wheel-drive vehicle could easily be hidden in a house such as the one targeted by the IDF yesterday.

The pattern and circumstances of the attack are sinister. With no telltale scorch marks from a Hizbullah missile launch visible near the destroyed house, and with no Hizbullah fighters among the dead and injured, the question remains as to what kind of "asset" the IDF could credibly allege to have been contained within the building.

The timing of the attack, taking place as it did during a period of relative calm and not in the immediate aftermath of a Hizbullah missile launch, speaks of a punitive strike designed simply to kill members of the Shia community from which Hizbullah is drawn and receives its moral support. The targeting of unarmed Shia women and children would represent a deliberate targeting of innocent civilians for retaliatory or punitive purposes, and may well constitute a war crime.

Tom Clonan is The Irish Times security analyst.

Source

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Hermetic Hermit

Israeli pilots 'deliberately miss' targets

Fliers admit aborting raids on civilian targets as concern grows over the reliability of intelligence

At least two Israeli fighter pilots have deliberately missed civilian targets in Lebanon as disquiet grows in the military about flawed intelligence, The Observer has learnt. Sources say the pilots were worried that targets had been wrongly identified as Hizbollah facilities.

Voices expressing concern over the armed forces' failures are getting louder. One Israeli cabinet minister said last week: 'We gave the army so much money. Why are we getting these results?' Last week saw Hizbollah's guerrilla force, dismissed by senior Israeli military officials as 'ragtag', inflict further casualties on one of the world's most powerful armies in southern Lebanon. At least 12 elite troops, the equivalent of Britain's SAS, have already been killed, and by yesterday afternoon Israel's military death toll had climbed to 45.

As the bodies pile up, so the Israeli media has begun to turn, accusing the military of lacking the proper equipment, training and intelligence to fight a guerrilla war in Lebanon. Israel's Defence Minister, Amir Peretz, on a tour of the front lines, was confronted by troubled reserve soldiers who told him they lacked proper equipment and training.

Israel's chief of staff, Major-General Dan Halutz, had vowed to wipe out Hizbollah's missile threat within 10 days. These claims are now being mocked as rockets rain down on Israel's north with ever greater intensity, despite an intense and highly destructive air bombardment.

As one well-connected Israeli expert put it: 'If we have such good information in Lebanon, how come we still don't know the hideout of missiles and launchers?... If we don't know the location of their weapons, why should we know which house is a Hizbollah house?'

As international outrage over civilian deaths grows, the spotlight is increasingly turning on Israeli air operations. The Observer has learnt that one senior commander who has been involved in the air attacks in Lebanon has already raised concerns that some of the air force's actions might be considered 'war crimes'.

Yonatan Shapiro, a former Blackhawk helicopter pilot dismissed from reserve duty after signing a 'refusenik' letter in 2004, said he had spoken with Israeli F-16 pilots in recent days and learnt that some had aborted missions because of concerns about the reliability of intelligence information. According to Shapiro, some pilots justified aborting missions out of 'common sense' and in the context of the Israeli Defence Force's moral code of conduct, which says every effort should be made to avoiding harming civilians.

Shapiro said: 'Some pilots told me they have shot at the side of targets because they're afraid people will be there, and they don't trust any more those who give them the coordinates and targets.'

He added: 'One pilot told me he was asked to hit a house on a hill, which was supposed to be a place from where Hizbollah was launching Katyusha missiles. But he was afraid civilians were in the house, so he shot next to the house ...

'Pilots are always being told they will be judged on results, but if the results are hundreds of dead civilians while Hizbollah is still able to fire all these rockets, then something is very wrong.'

So far none of the pilots has publicly refused to fly missions but some are wobbling, according to Shapiro. He said: 'Their target could be a house firing a cannon at Israel and it could be a house full of children, so it's a real dilemma; it's not black and white. But ... I'm calling on them to refuse, in order save our country from self-destruction.'

Meron Rappoport, a former editor at the Israeli daily Haaretz and military analyst, criticised the air force's methods for selecting targets: 'The impression is that information is sometimes lacking. One squadron leader admitted the evidence used to determine attacks on cars is sometimes circumstantial - meaning that if people are in an area after Israeli forces warned them to leave, the assumption is that those left behind must be linked to Hizbollah ... This is problematic, as aid agencies have said many people did not leave ... because they could not, or it was unsafe to travel on the roads thanks to Israel's aerial bombardment.'

These revelations raise further serious questions about the airstrike in Qana last Sunday that left dozens dead, which continues to arouse international outrage. From the outset, the Israeli military's version of events has been shrouded in ambiguity, with the army releasing a video it claims shows Katyusha rockets being fired from Qana, even though the video was dated two days earlier, and claiming that more than 150 rockets had been fired from the location.

Some IDF officials have continued to refer vaguely to Katyushas being launched 'near houses' in the village and to non-specific 'terrorist activity' inside the targeted building. In a statement on Thursday, the IDF said it the air force did not know there were civilians in what they believed was an empty building, yet paradoxically blamed Hizbollah for using those killed as 'human shields'.

Human rights groups have attacked the findings as illogical. Amnesty International described the investigation as a 'whitewash', saying Israeli intelligence must have been aware of the civilians'.

One Israeli commander from a different squadron called the Qana bombing a 'mistake' and was unable to explain the apparent contradiction in the IDF's position, although he insisted there would have been no deliberate targeting of civilians. He said he had seen the video of the attack, and admitted: 'Generally they [Hizbollah] are using human shields ... That specific building - I don't know the reason it was chosen as a target.'

Source

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Moon Monkey

Moon Monkey: They get the virgins after blowing up thenself killings has many enemies they can kill. The dony suicide by the virgins, but for the chance of killing more enmies. After all they fight an asimetrical war. Bombs and AK-47 vs F-16 and Merkavas IV.

If my translation of that gobbledygook is correct, I would simply say if you pick a fight against F-16 and Merkavas don't be surprised if people get hurt. Its quite simple, adher to 1559 and disarm Hezbollah.

I was replying to a post about the honor of entering a disco and blowing up kids, entering a cafe and destroying families or accidently killing civilians through incorrect information or through your enemy picking a civilian packed area as his battleground.

Screw the virgins, thats crazy talk anyway that may have worked in the middle ages but its now 2006. :wacko:

Oh sorry I forgot to ask, are you MEKORIG saying that suicide bombing civilians in cold blood is a valid tactic ? Just trying to establish your position/sanity.

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