Satan/Lucifer/Christian nation

[seanph]

A response to a recent thread. Couldn't answer before it was closed, so I'll do so now.

ridicullous? Did you ever take American History? Didn't you learn about the puritans and the quakers? About the Christians that came here because the Catholic church was opreesing them? Or do you choose to ignore that because you know this country was now founded by Atheist values.

The men who lead the United States in its revolution against England were not orthodox Christians. This is History 101. Our first six presidents--our great founding fathers--were Deists, Unitarians et al.

"One of the embarrassing problems for the early nineteenth-century champions of the Christian faith was that not one of the first six Presidents of the United States was an orthodox Christian."--The Encyclopedia Brittanica, 1968, p. 420.

They went to great pains to make sure that our constitution reflected commonsense principles. They were well aware the pain religion had caused in Europe. Repeating it was something they tried desperately to avoid. Yes, they acknowledged god many times, but you do not find such terminology in the Constitution. Why? Because they believed strongly in a wall of separation of church and state--a phrase used by Jefferson to summarize the Establishment Clause.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

Below are a few quotes by our founding fathers regarding religion. But first, the treaty of Tripoli. George Washington was president when the treaty was signed at Tripoli (1797), but by the time it reached the Senate for ratification John Adams was president:

"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,--as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquillity of Musselmen,--and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mohammedan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever interrupt the harmony existing between the two countries."

**George Washington

"The United States of America should have a foundation free from the influence of clergy."--George Washington, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_, James A. Haught

**John Adams:

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"--John Adams in a letter to Thomas Jefferson

"But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legaends, hae been blended with both Jewish and Chiistian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed.--John Adams in a letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_, John A. Haught

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity." --John Adams

**Benjamin Franklin

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758

"Religion I found to be without any tendency to inspire, promote, or confirm morality, serves principally to divide us and make us unfriendly to one another."--Benjamin Franklin

**Thomas Jefferson

“Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on a man.”--Thomas Jefferson

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are serviley crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blind faith." -- Thomas Jefferson

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."--Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association on Jan. 1, 1802, _The_Writings_of_Thomas_Jefferson_Memorial_Edition_, edited by Lipscomb and Bergh, 1903-04, 16:281

"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."--Thomas Jefferson, _Notes_on_Virginia_,_Jefferson_the_President:_First_Term_1801-1805_, Dumas Malon, Boston: Little Brown and Company, 1970, p. 191

"I consider the government of the United States as interdicted by the Constitution from intermeddling with religious institutions, their doctrines, discipline, or exercises."--Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Samuel Miller, 1808

"I am for freedom of religion and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another."--Thomas Jefferson to Elbridge Gerry, 1799, _The_Writings_of_Thomas_Jefferson_Memorial_Edition_, edited by Lipscomb and Bergh, 1903-04, 10:78

"I know it will give great offense to the clergy, but the advocate of religious freedom is to expect neither peace no forgiveness from them."--Thomas Jefferson to Levi Lincoln, 1802, _The_Writings_of_Thomas_Jefferson_Memorial_Edition_, edited by Lipscomb and Bergh, 10:305

"No religious reading, instruction or exercise, shall be prescribed or practiced [in the elementary schools] inconsistent with the tenets of any religious sect or denomination."--Thomas Jefferson, Elementary school Act, 1817, _The_Writings_of_Thomas_Jefferson_Memorial_Edition_, edited by Lipscomb and Bergh, 10:305

**James Madison

"Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other sects?" -- James Madison, _A_Memorial_ and_Remonstrance, addressed to the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of VA, 1795

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." -- James Madison,_A_Memorial_ and_Remonstrance, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_ by James A. Haught

"Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and all of which facilitates the execution of mischievous projects. Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise, every expanded project."--James Madison, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_ by James A. Haught

"And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."--James Madison in a letter to Edward Livingston in 1822

"When I do good, I feel good, and when I do bad, I feel bad, and that’s my religion."— Abraham Lincoln

As Pastor Richard T. Zuelch pointed out in his letter to the Los Angeles Times on August 14, 1995:

Gordon S. Wood, in his 1992 book, "The Radicalism of the American Revolution," states that, by the 1790's only about 10% of the American population regularly attended religious services - to quote just one statistic. Not exactly an indication of a wholehearted national commitment to Christianity!

It is a matter of simple historical fact that the United States was not founded as, nor was it ever intended to be, a Christian nation. That there were strong, long-lasting Christian influences involved in the nation's earliest history, due to the Puritan settlements and those of other religious persons escaping European persecution, cannot be denied. But that is a long way from saying that colonial leaders, by the time of the outbreak of the Revolution, were intending to form a nation founded on specifically Christian principles and doctrine.

We Christians do ourselves no favor by bending history to suit our prejudices or to accommodate wishful thinking. Rather than continue to cling to a "Moral Majority"-style fantasy that says America is a Christian nation that needs to be "taken back" from secular unbelief (we can't "take back" what we never had), it would be much healthier for us Christians to face reality, holding to what Jesus himself said in the Gospels: that Christians should never be surprised at the hostility with which the gospel would be greeted by the world, because most people would fail to believe in him, thereby strongly implying that, in every age and country, Christianity would always be a minority faith.

Side note: The words, "under God," did not appear in the Pledge of Allegiance until 1954, when Congress, under McCarthyism, inserted them. Likewise, "In God We Trust" was absent from paper currency before 1956. It appeared on some coins earlier, as did other sundry phrases, such as "Mind Your Business." The original U.S. motto, chosen by John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, and Thomas Jefferson, is E Pluribus Unum ("Of Many, One"), celebrating plurality, not theocracy.

ARR

http://www.sunnetworks.net/~ggarman/index....Essay######list.

America: A Christian Nation

http://www.brucegourley.com/christiannation/

Little-Known U.S. Document Signed by President Adams Proclaims America's Government Is Secular

http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html

Primary Source Material in Religion and Politics (Baylor University)

http://www.baylor.edu/church_state/index.p...36168#twentieth

Biblical Discernment Ministries - 6/98

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psycho.../amerc.htm#Note

"The Constitution of the U.S. forbids everything like an establishment of a national religion." -- James Madison (Detached Memoranda, ca. 1817)

Books:

The Establishment Clause by Leonard W. Levy

Revolutionary Characters: What Made the Founders Different by Gordon Wood

The Faiths of the Founding Fathers by David L. Holmes

The Godless Constitution: A Moral Defense of the Secular State by Isaac Kramnick, R. Laurence Moore

The Separation of Church and State: Writings on a Fundamental Freedom by America's Founders by Forrest Church (Editor)

The Myth of Christian America: What You Need to Know About the Separation of Church and State by Mark Weldon Whitten

See the problem with you is you read the Bible and do not get it. You can't get it. Wanna know why? Because it is not possible for a nonbeliever especially one with Satan as a friend to understand the Bible. Satan and Lucifer ARE the same, they are both evil and will both endure HELL.

Satan and Lucifer are by no means the same! If you're going to call yourself a Christian ... know the facts!

First, an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent god supposedly created angels. They can do nothing without god commanding or allowing it. Second, if such an event like "The Fall" did occur--and it didn't--the god of the universe could have easily quashed such a rebellion, simply snapped them out of existence. Third, Lucifer is not associated with "the Satan" (a term describing an angel--any angel--that is apart of god's heavenly court. When god wishes to do evil against someone, he uses "the Satan" to go before him and be an obstacle in that persons way) in the Bible. It is Latin for "Morning Star" and a title often given to Babylonian kings. It's a simple medieval mistranslation and has nothing to do with evil.

John J. Robinson A Pilgrim's Path, pp. 47-48:

"Lucifer makes his appearance in the fourteenth chapter of the Old Testament book of Isaiah, at the twelfth verse, and nowhere else: "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

The first problem is that Lucifer is a Latin name. So how did it find its way into a Hebrew manuscript, written before there was a Roman language? To find the answer, I consulted a scholar at the library of the Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati. What Hebrew name, I asked, was Satan given in this chapter of Isaiah, which describes the angel who fell to become the ruler of hell?

The answer was a surprise. In the original Hebrew text, the fourteenth chapter of Isaiah is not about a fallen angel, but about a fallen Babylonian king, who during his lifetime had persecuted the children of Israel. It contains no mention of Satan, either by name or reference. The Hebrew scholar could only speculate that some early Christian scribes, writing in the Latin tongue used by the Church, had decided for themselves that they wanted the story to be about a fallen angel, a creature not even mentioned in the original Hebrew text, and to whom they gave the name "Lucifer."

Why Lucifer? In Roman astronomy, Lucifer was the name given to the morning star (the star we now know by another Roman name, Venus). The morning star appears in the heavens just before dawn, heralding the rising sun. The name derives from the Latin term lucem ferre, bringer, or bearer, of light." In the Hebrew text the expression used to describe the Babylonian king before his death is Helal, son of Shahar, which can best be translated as "Day star, son of the Dawn." The name evokes the golden glitter of a proud king's dress and court (much as his personal splendor earned for King Louis XIV of France the appellation, "The Sun King").

The scholars authorized by ... King James I to translate the Bible into current English did not use the original Hebrew texts, but used versions translated ... largely by St. Jerome in the fourth century. Jerome had mistranslated the Hebraic metaphor, "Day star, son of the Dawn," as "Lucifer," and over the centuries a metamorphosis took place. Lucifer the morning star became a disobedient angel, cast out of heaven to rule eternally in hell. Theologians, writers, and poets interwove the myth with the doctrine of the Fall, and in Christian tradition Lucifer is now the same as Satan, the Devil, and--ironically--the Prince of Darkness.

So "Lucifer" is nothing more than an ancient Latin name for the morning star, the bringer of light. That can be confusing for Christians who identify Christ himself as the morning star, a term used as a central theme in many Christian sermons. Jesus refers to himself as the morning star in Revelation 22:16: "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."

And so there are those who do not read beyond the King James version of the Bible, who say 'Lucifer is Satan: so says the Word of God'...."

Here’s a brief synopsis of The Origins of Satan by Professor of Religion, Elaine Pagels, Princeton University:

“Pagels charts the evolution of the Jewish and Christian concept of evil from Old Testament times to the present day (although the majority of the book deals with the New Testament era). She explains how ' Satan ' didn't always refer to an evil being but was initially used to represent an obstacle. After that meaning, it evolved into a meaning which was used to unify your group against your enemies/adversaries or 'satan'. The Jews still don't, nor did they ever, believe in or create the Satan/Devil being/creature/character of Christian lore.

It wasn't until New Testament times and later that the concept of an evil being who is actually called 'Satan' or the 'Devil' or ' Lucifer ' evolved. It is interesting to see how these concepts have continued to persist throughout religious and political history with groups stigmatizing others not in their group (whether it be religious, political, racial, etc.) as being 'of the devil'. Dictatorships and other authoritarian organizations always need an external enemy to bind their followers together.”

Oxford Companion to the Bible:

Satan. The name of the archenemy of God and the personification of evil, particularly in Christian tradition. The name may derive from a Semitic root ?ãn, but the primitive meaning is still debated, the most popular suggestions being “to be remote” and “to obstruct.” Some alternative roots include ?wã (cf. Hebr. “to rove”) and syã (cf. Arabic “to burn,” especially of food).

In the Hebrew Bible ?åãån could refer to any human being who played the role of an accuser or enemy (1 Samuel 29.4; 2 Samuel 19.22; 1 Kings 5.4; 1 Kings 11.14). In Numbers 22.32 ?åãån refers to a divine messenger who was sent to obstruct Balaam’s rash journey.

Job 1–2, Zechariah 3, and 1 Chronicles 21.1 have been central in past efforts to chart an evolution of the concept of ?åãån that culminates in a single archenemy of God. However, such evolutionary views have not gained general acceptance because ?åãån in these passages does not necessarily refer to a single archenemy of God and because the relative dating of the texts remains problematic. In Job 1–2, the ?åãån seems to be a legitimate member of God’s council. In Zechariah 3.1–7 ?åãån may refer to a member of God’s council who objected to the appointment of Joshua as chief priest. The mention of ?åãån without the definite article in 1 Chronicles 21.1 has led some scholars to interpret it as a proper name, but one could also interpret it as “an adversary” or “an accuser” acting on God’s behalf.

Most scholars agree that in the writings of the third/second centuries BCE are the first examples of a character who is the archenemy of Yahweh and humankind. Nonetheless, the flexibility of the tradition is still apparent in the variety of figures who, although not necessarily identical with each other, are each apparently regarded as the principal archenemy of God and humankind in Second Temple literature. Such figures include Mastemah (Jubilees 10.8), Semyaz (1 Enoch 6.3), and Belial at Qumran (Zadokite Document 4.13). Still undetermined is the extent to which the concept of the Hebrew ?åãån was influenced by Persian dualism, which posited the existence of two primal and independent personifications of good and evil.

Although it shares with contemporaneous Jewish literature many of its ideas about demonology, the New Testament is probably more responsible for standardizing “Satan” (Greek satanas) as the name for the archenemy of God in Western culture. However, the devil (the usual translation of “Satan” in the Septuagint), Beelzebul (“the prince of demons,” Matthew 12.24; See Baal-zebub), “the tempter” (Matthew 4.3), Beliar (2 Corinthians 6.15), “the evil one” (1 John 5.18), and Apollyon (Revelation 9.11) are other names for Satan in the New Testament. Lucifer, a name for Satan popularized in the Middle Ages, derives ultimately from the merging of the New Testament tradition of the fall of Satan from heaven (Luke 10.18) with an originally separate biblical tradition concerning the Morning Star (cf. Isaiah 14.12).

According to the New Testament, Satan and his demons may enter human beings in order to incite evil deeds (Luke 22.3) and to cause illness (Matthew 15.22; Luke 11.14). Satan can imitate “an angel of light” (2 Corinthians 11.14), has command of the air (Ephesians 2.2), and accuses the faithful day and night before God (Revelation 12.10). Jude 9 mentions the struggle between Satan and the archangel Michael for the body of Moses. Revelation 20.2, among other texts, equates “the Devil and Satan” with “the dragon,” thus reflecting the merging of ancient myths concerning gigantic primordial beasts that wreak havoc on God’s creation with the traditions concerning Satan. Satan’s destiny is to be cast into a lake of fire (Revelation 20.10–15).

In 563 CE the Council of Braga helped to define the official Christian view of Satan that, in contrast to dualism, denied his independent origin and his creation of the material universe. As J. B. Russell (Lucifer: The Devil in the Middle Ages, 1984) notes, writers and theologians of the medieval period popularized many of the characteristics of Satan that remain standard today and that have roots in, among other sources, Greek, Roman, and Teutonic mythology. Although the Enlightenment produced explanations of evil that do not refer to a mythological being, the imagery and concept of Satan continues to thrive within many religious traditions.See Also Exorcism.--HECTOR IGNACIO AVALOS, Professor of Religious Studies at Iowa State University

The Origins of Satan

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/067973118...TF8&s=books

Kindly,

Sean

Edited September 2, 2006 by seanph

[zandore]

"Lucifer makes his appearance in the fourteenth chapter of the Old Testament book of Isaiah, at the twelfth verse, and nowhere else: "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

The first problem is that Lucifer is a Latin name. So how did it find its way into a Hebrew manuscript, written before there was a Roman language? To find the answer, I consulted a scholar at the library of the Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati. What Hebrew name, I asked, was Satan given in this chapter of Isaiah, which describes the angel who fell to become the ruler of hell?

The answer was a surprise. In the original Hebrew text, the fourteenth chapter of Isaiah is not about a fallen angel, but about a fallen Babylonian king, who during his lifetime had persecuted the children of Israel. It contains no mention of Satan, either by name or reference. The Hebrew scholar could only speculate that some early Christian scribes, writing in the Latin tongue used by the Church, had decided for themselves that they wanted the story to be about a fallen angel, a creature not even mentioned in the original Hebrew text, and to whom they gave the name "Lucifer."

Correct it is part of a parable.

Neviim - The Prophets

Isaiah 14

4 that thou shalt take up this parable against the king of Babylon, and say: How hath the oppressor ceased! the exactress of gold ceased!

5 HaShem hath broken the staff of the wicked, the sceptre of the rulers,

6 That smote the peoples in wrath with an incessant stroke, that ruled the nations in anger, with a persecution that none restrained.

7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet; they break forth into singing.

8 Yea, the cypresses rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon: 'Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.'

9 The nether-world from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming; the shades are stirred up for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; all the kings of the nations are raised up from their thrones.

10 All they do answer and say unto thee: 'Art thou also become weak as we? Art thou become like unto us?

11 Thy pomp is brought down to the nether-world, and the noise of thy psalteries; the maggot is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.'

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, that didst cast lots over the nations!

The Tanakh