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Debunking the Disclosure Project


drew hempel

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Meanwhile the elite makes out for the underground cities.

Lol that's pretty funny because i don't see any factual evdience leading to these underground CITIES. Sure there is such thing as underground bases, but cities? cmon now. Show me satalite imagary of it and ill take what i said back. Drew you seem to read far to many books and relate everything you know down to a book you have read. Who is to say the books your reading on the subject are even right? Its one voice over another, and frankly i wont believe a book just because it claims that its fact.

want but there's already a book on how the French have infilitrated the U.S. for cyber espionage and cyberwarfare.

Another book. Do you ever take the time to put actual research into these books you read to make sure your not being decieved? Sure i believe that the disclosure project doesn't have much to offer, but for me to refer to a dozen books which proves it is true, will that make it fact?

You seem very level headed, its just some of the things your spewing out is hard to even understand where you would get all this information or how you would determine that you have the solid definate proof.

Disclosure project wont be debunked until there is some valid proof to it. Stop thinking that everything the gov does is for dis information, its this kind of notion that doesn't settle with me very well. Until i find the real truth, yours is nothing more then imagination.

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name='drew hempel' date='Sep 16 2006, 12:03 AM' post='1351829']

Well considering that astronomers admit 96% of the Universe is UNKNOWN that list is none too surprising! haha

Much of the universe is unknown and our knowledge of physics is limited but it seems that the position of some folks is that we know all there is to know about the universe and physics.

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Lol that's pretty funny because i don't see any factual evdience leading to these underground CITIES. Sure there is such thing as underground bases, but cities? cmon now. Show me satalite imagary of it and ill take what i said back. Drew you seem to read far to many books and relate everything you know down to a book you have read. Who is to say the books your reading on the subject are even right? Its one voice over another, and frankly i wont believe a book just because it claims that its fact.

Another book. Do you ever take the time to put actual research into these books you read to make sure your not being decieved? Sure i believe that the disclosure project doesn't have much to offer, but for me to refer to a dozen books which proves it is true, will that make it fact?

You seem very level headed, its just some of the things your spewing out is hard to even understand where you would get all this information or how you would determine that you have the solid definate proof.

Disclosure project wont be debunked until there is some valid proof to it. Stop thinking that everything the gov does is for dis information, its this kind of notion that doesn't settle with me very well. Until i find the real truth, yours is nothing more then imagination.

In otherwords you're another explorer of "UM" that doesn't google! haha what a joke!!

So many people use the internet who don't even know "how to learn"

The most important thing to learn is "how to learn."!!

Deceived? OK -- I personally got the U of Minnesota to 1) divest $1.5 million dollars 2) and join the Workers Rights Consortium to monitor and improve sweatshops.

So I'm not exactly naive considering I had to confront the former US Justice dept lawyer that runs the U for over a year and also the whole PR department, plus the half a dozen professors from every discipline on campus, plus the faculty senate (at the largest university in the U.S.), etc.

I've been arrested 7 times for civil disobedience and have succesfully argued my position before judges -- and even before Al Gore for half an hour in 2000, the basement of a VFW.

So, yes, I've backed up my book reading with real radical progressive policy changes.

For the last five years, since I got my masters degree, I've not only read one book a day (nonfiction, academic books) but I've posted and debated all this information online see http://drewhempel.gnn.tv

Also I've corresponded with professors from all academic disciplines for the last five years.

http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/Bases.html

That's one source for underground bases -- again just google the information.

The typical online forum debate has this stupid passive consumer attitude like "if I don't google this stuff than it doesn't exist and I have now responsibility to look for myself!"

That's the naive attitude and it's completely retarded.

This is a forum for people who don't know who to look up information themselves because they're too scared to find out or investigate

Unexplained Mysteries!

haha -- what a total joke.

Now when any of you actually read the latest books on the subject of this forum topic -- UFOs -- and specifically I mean Nick Redfern's On the Trail of the Saucer Spies" -- then maybe there'll be something to discuss.

Amazingly not all information is freely available online!!

Some of you might actually have to read books -- and considering that Nick Redfern is listed as one of the sources for the above link to "astronomer's sightings" it would seem that his latest book might be an important new basis for discussion.

Redfern's book relies on newly issued declassified documents.

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Lol that's pretty funny because i don't see any factual evdience leading to these underground CITIES. Sure there is such thing as underground bases, but cities? cmon now. Show me satalite imagary of it and ill take what i said back. Drew you seem to read far to many books and relate everything you know down to a book you have read. Who is to say the books your reading on the subject are even right? Its one voice over another, and frankly i wont believe a book just because it claims that its fact.

Another book. Do you ever take the time to put actual research into these books you read to make sure your not being decieved? Sure i believe that the disclosure project doesn't have much to offer, but for me to refer to a dozen books which proves it is true, will that make it fact?

You seem very level headed, its just some of the things your spewing out is hard to even understand where you would get all this information or how you would determine that you have the solid definate proof.

Disclosure project wont be debunked until there is some valid proof to it. Stop thinking that everything the gov does is for dis information, its this kind of notion that doesn't settle with me very well. Until i find the real truth, yours is nothing more then imagination.

Considering that I've already posted two excerpts on this thread -- that I personally looked up and typed out!! Detailed information from an expert on nuclear radiation and detailed information from a space research professional at the Smithsonian (from an academic article only available at the University) -- it's not as if I'm just pointing to the latest UFO books that people are scared to read (although I'm doing that as well!)

Here's another good website on underground cities -- the website that was censored at the U of Minnesota Wilson Library:

http://www.informantnews.com/starshipgamma...ound/links.html

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name='drew hempel' date='Sep 16 2006, 12:35 AM' post='1351857']

Redfern's book relies on newly issued declassified documents.

Were you aware that the Malmstrom AFB, UFO incident is documented on the website of the Department of Defense? There are those who seem to think that the Disclosure participants were just talking up a storm with nothing to back up their claims.

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Were you aware that the Malmstrom AFB, UFO incident is documented on the website of the Department of Defense? There are those who seem to think that the Disclosure participants were just talking up a storm with nothing to back up their claims.

Apparently you've forgotten my previous response as well as other responses to the Malmstrom incident. Just scan back up the thread -- the information that we gave is not at all changed by the fact that it's on the Department of Defense site. We've already told you that the issue is not whether the incident happened or not -- the issue is whether it's any evidence for an alien presence or invasion!!

The answer is no -- there is no evidence for alien invasion or presence.

Again if you dare to read the latest declassified documents, featured in Nick Redfern's new book "On the Trail of the Saucer Spies" you will find out that there's been a long and current campaign by the CIA to promote an alien invasion for the purposes of disinformation and promotion of techno-spirituality.

Other sources that you need to read "The Stargate Conspiracy" by Lynn Picknett and Clive Prince

"The Trickster and the Paranormal" by Dr. George P. Hansen http://tricksterbook.com

"UFO Mysteries" by Curt Sutherly

Good luck!

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Were you aware that the Malmstrom AFB, UFO incident is documented on the website of the Department of Defense? There are those who seem to think that the Disclosure participants were just talking up a storm with nothing to back up their claims.

Consider that Dr. Carol Rosin -- featured as a key witness -- is considered to be a CIA disinfo agent by very credible sources:

http://www.animatedsoftware.com/cassini/cass2001/nks0003.htm

She had close ties to another CIA agent -- Timothy Leary!! Where do you think he got all his acid? Don't believe (well don't google it! haha)

Carol Rosin was Leary's landlady and close friend.

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Much of the universe is unknown and our knowledge of physics is limited but it seems that the position of some folks is that we know all there is to know about the universe and physics.

Meanwhile space technology is destroying Earth -- ho hum -- let's just ignore this because the aliens are good!!

http://willthomas.net

Scientist Says Chemtrails, Shuttle Launches Endangering Earth

by William Thomas

Aug 7th 2006

Preface - Total article 3230 words. A Canadian atmospheric scientist warns that chemtrails, airliners and shuttle launches are weakening the stratosphere and destroying Earth’s ozone layer—threatening all life on Earth.

It was one of those messages that phones are notorious for delivering—the kind of call that cancels the sleep and makes flu symptoms worse. But this time, the health of the entire planet was at stake.

A concerned Canadian scientist named Neil Finley was on the line to inform me that high-altitude jet traffic, space launches and chemtrails are threatening to destroy not only Earth’s protective radiation shielding—but the stratosphere itself.

This wasn’t entirely news. Ken Caldeira, the scientist at the Lawrence Livermore atom bomb laboratories who had run Edward Teller’s computer simulations for an atmospheric “sunscreen” had earlier told me that a program involving the spraying of millions of tons of sunlight-reflecting chemicals high in the stratosphere could “destroy the ozone layer.”

What was news was an atmospheric scientists expressing concern over chemtrails.

CHEMBOWS

On June 16, 2006, while driving on Highway 1 near Victoria, British Columbia, ” Finley related, “I stopped to view a huge, white, flat cloud—incredibly white, incredibly wide. It was shocking to see.”

Sunlight reflected from that massive unnatural cloud through his tinted sun visor “occulted” the sun, as he described it, into prismatic bars: “all pink, green and purple.” Such “birefringence,” Finley explained, “never happens with water vapor, because color separation only occurs in a crystal index of refraction.”

Say again?

Such prismatic interferences with wavelengths of light only occur with “extremely, extremely fine solid material,” Finley tried again. These fine, suspended particles “causes interference patterns around each particle, changing the color of the light.”

Finley said he was specifically referring to the chemicals artificially released into the sky by “tankers”.

While water vapor freezing into high-altitude ice crystals can put “sundogs” around the sun and an occasional halo around the moon, the oily rainbow colors much more commonly seen in jet-trails and artificial clouds are chemical signatures, he related.

EARTH’S OZONE LAYER STILL SHREDDING

These chlorine chemicals cascading directly into the ozone layer from airliners, chemtrail tankers and other military aircraft flying above 13 kilometers—as well as nearly continuous solid-fuel rocket launches from Cape Canaveral and Vandenberg Air Force Base are chewing up Earth’s remaining ozone layer.

After years of misleading media reports hailing Earth’s “recovering ozone layer”, we are still “on the cusp” of ozone recovery, says atmospheric researcher Elizabeth Weatherhead at the University of Colorado and lead author of the most recent ozone study. [Nature May 4/06; CBS/AP June 1/06]

The Associated Press and CBS News now confirm that Earth's sunscreen “appears poised” for the recovery they’ve been long reporting. Unless, that is, rapid Greenhouse Warming continues to skew atmospheric temperatures and circulations patterns, the rapid rise of methane gas from billions of cows and megatons of melting permafrost, a steep rise in nitrous oxide emissions from more than 5 million high-altitude jet airliner flights annually—and a projected 1,468 orbital rocket launches between 1998 and 2010 added to 3,174 launches already made from 1991 to 1997—“affect the outcome.” [CSIRO Telecommunications and Industrial Physics, Australia Feb 28/02]

Guess what?

Last winter, the protective ozone layer over the Arctic thinned to the lowest levels since records. At high altitudes, 50% of the protective layer was destroyed.

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name='drew hempel' date='Sep 16 2006, 01:04 AM' post='1351899']

The answer is no -- there is no evidence for alien invasion or presence.

Actually, it was and the facts were clearly documented on the website of the Department of Defense's website and presented by one of the missile commanders, a Disclosure Witness, at the press conference. The saucer-shaped craft was definitely not that of any secret project, which is ludicrous to say the least. SAC wouldn't have dared dismantled those missiles in the manner for which it was done nor did the capability to do so existed in the field.

The incident alarmed those who were involved and those at SAC headquarters and that incident happened again at the same general location only this time two interceptors were scrambled and the flying object was lost on the radar screen after it climbed above 200,000 feet. Simple common sense logic would have provided a clue that the object was not a typical aircraft of mankind and even Nick Redferm can't dream his way out of that one.

.

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The answer is no -- there is no evidence for alien invasion or presence.

Nothing conclusive, well not on the net that's for sure.

Maybe I should google, find a website and believe every word er simply because it's on the internet and agrees with my personal biased opinion...?

Or maybe er I don't know, do some real research and meet people face to face, one on one?

Yep.. this sounds better.

Edited by rapid7
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Actually, it was and the facts were clearly documented on the website of the Department of Defense's website and presented by one of the missile commanders, a Disclosure Witness, at the press conference. The saucer-shaped craft was definitely not that of any secret project, which is ludicrous to say the least. SAC wouldn't have dared dismantled those missiles in the manner for which it was done nor did the capability to do so existed in the field.

The incident alarmed those who were involved and those at SAC headquarters and that incident happened again at the same general location only this time two interceptors were scrambled and the flying object was lost on the radar screen after it climbed above 200,000 feet. Simple common sense logic would have provided a clue that the object was not a typical aircraft of mankind and even Nick Redferm can't dream his way out of that one.

.

Of course you haven't read Nick Redfern's book have you! As I've stated the CIA worked with the Nazis to cover up this technology and to spread alien invasion disinformation! That's well documented!! It's not just in Nick Redfern's books -- which use recently declassified documents (that aren't on the web!!)

Here's more on the Vactican-CIA-Nazi-Extraterrestrial Baptism Utopia Project:

The Vatican worked with the CIA to send Nazi rocket scientists and mass murderers to the U.S. (i.e. Wernher von Braun personally supervised mass slave labor while he was an S.S. Nazi major and he tested his rockets on civilians.) This secret was called “Operation Paperclip” and led to the genocidal regimes in Latin America as well as today’s modern science genocide. drew hempel, M.A.

Issue: February 1993

Baptizing the Extraterrestrials

JUST WHEN YOU THINK IT CAN’T GET ANY STRANGER, IT DOES.

In the last issue of the FREE PRESS I pointed out an obscure article in the Santa Rosa Press Democrat (10/13/92) that talked about NASA’s initiating its big cosmic search for life in the universe on none other than “Columbus Day”. You see, it’s not enough that we are all still karmicly suffering from the explorations of 500 years ago, but whopee!—let’s keep that mentality going in a sort of thematic time warp. They used October 12, 1992 to “turn on powerful radio telescopes to listen for signals generated on other worlds”.

Now my friends and I would of course support any search for “intelligent” life out there since it’s so damn hard to find any around here but I’m not sure our definition of intellegence would be the same as NASAs. So imagine my surprise when I noticed another obscure little article, this time in a December ‘92 Press Democrat story entitled VATICAN WORRIES OVER WHETHER TO BAPTIZE EXTRATERRESTRIALS!

I am not making this up! It seems that the Catholic Church may have a new missionary frontier on its hands and the possiblility of all those heathen outer space aliens raises “profound theological questions”. According to Rev. George Coyne, director of the Vatican Observatory, “The church would be obliged to address the question of whether extraterrestrials might be brought within the fold and baptized.” The leading institutionalized purveyor of spiritual genocide in this poor world feels duty bound to carry it into the cosmos!! Will someone please tell them to RELAX!! And some of you thought that just because we elected Bill, Dan and Lynn we could give up the good fight! . . .Not!

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name='drew hempel' date='Sep 16 2006, 01:11 AM' post='1351906']

Consider that Dr. Carol Rosin -- featured as a key witness -- is considered to be a CIA disinfo agent by very credible sources:

Actually, I have been aware of the CIA's disinfomation campaign for a length of time, especially on UFOs and you can back-track to the Robertson Panel's recommendations in 1953 and get the rest of the story. I also remember the CIA's Glomar Explorer and its cover story for that ship, and to make a point, its cover story regarding that ship was no more dissimilar than its cover stories on UFOs and I would like for you to examine the CIA's cover story concerning UFOs of the 1950's that it sought to explain away as the U-2, which was false. The U-2 was explained away not as a UFO as the CIA falsely claimed, but as a high altitude weather aircraft.

The first time I read that story about the CIA's claim on the U-2, I knew that it was false but there were those who never knew the rest of the story so they basically took the CIA's explanation as law.

Edited by skyeagle409
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Actually, I have been aware of the CIA's disinfomation campaign for a length of time, especially on UFOs and you can back-track to the Robertson Panel's recommendations in 1953 and get the rest of the story. I also remember the CIA's Glomar Explorer and its cover story for that ship, and to make a point, its cover story regarding that ship was no more dissimilar than its cover stories on UFOs and I would like for you to examine the CIA's cover story concerning UFOs of the 1950's which it sought to explain away as the U-2, which was false. The U-2 was explained away not as a UFO as the CIA falsely claimed, but as a high altitude weather aircraft.

The first time I read that story about the CIA's claim on the U-2, I knew that it was false but there were those who never knew the rest of the story so they basically took the CIA's explanation as law.

THAT's ALL OLD NEWS! Just keep ignoring the latest UFO research and keep being an idiot.

The evidence is all published. Have your library order it if you're too cheap to buy the book!!

Look -- this book is in print! So others will eventually read it and then you can't stop pretending that the book doesn't exist! haha.

Not only that but when the U.S. used the Nazis to help create the CIA -- those same Nazis helped Stalin wipe out Jews!!

Mark Weitzman

Remarks before the Nazi War Criminals Interagency Working Group (Simon Wiesenthal Center, Los Angeles, June 24, 1999)

In World War II, Winston Churchill made his now famous statement: “In wartime, truth is so precious that she should always be attended by a bodyguard of lies.” While Churchill’s remark perhaps refers more to deception and subterfuge, it does, at the very least, imply that truth is such a precious commodity that it should be zealously guarded lest it fall into the wrong hands.

Churchill’s maxim has, since World War II, taken on the force of law. For over 50 years we have lived in a society that operated on a “need to know” basis. Our bodyguards have indeed guarded the truth; or, more accurately, the truth has been guarded from us. In the name of unspecified “national security concerns,” or in the name of protecting individual rights and reputations, the files have been kept sealed.

What secrets are hidden in these files – obviously we do not know that yet. But, we can perhaps get an idea if we just consider some possibilities. A recent report in a London newspaper described the story of Erhard Dabringhaus. Dabringhaus was an U.S. Army (CIC) intelligence officer in post-war Germany. During the years between 1946 and 1952 he helped recruit agents that served as a backbone of what would become the CIA. One prime area of recruitment was involved Nazis – even more specifically, SS men. Perhaps the most infamous of these men was Klaus Barbie, also known as “The Butcher of Lyon.” He was responsible for the deportation of 7,500 people, participated in 4,342 murders and was involved in the arrest and torture of 14,311 resistance fighters. Barbie was finally tracked down in the early 1980s and died in a French prison, but not before the exposure of his past also forced the exposure of U.S. involvement in the recruitment and protection of Nazis. A 1983 report by Alan Ryan, the then outgoing head of OSI, detailed the use by U.S. intelligence of Barbie, including his escape via the Rat Line. This line was an escape route from Europe to South America, a line that included assistance from a Croatian priest in the Vatican. Ryan concluded that “no other case was found where a suspected Nazi war criminal was placed in the rat line, or where the rat line was used to evacuate a person wanted…” (This assertion is far from being the final word on that point.) But, he did find, “that officers of the CIC engaged in obstruction of justice… although “prosecution is moot because of the statute of limitations”).

Dabringhaus, Barbie’s control, published a little noticed book about his experience, and the matter seemed to end with the assumption that a relatively small number of Nazis had been recruited by the U.S.

However, the story published last month (May 22) in the Times of London detailed a different picture, one with serious implications. According to this article, Dabringhaus, who died last year, left a legacy of files that contained dramatic revelations. These revelations indicate that:

Dabringhaus alone recruited hundreds of Nazis, specifically SS men (The Times story estimated that a third of SS officers were ultimately protected by the U.S.)

These Nazis operated into the 1960s (at least);

Some of these Nazis recruited for U.S. intelligence “continued to kill or persecute Jews” as participants in Stalin’s antisemitic purges;

Dabringhaus was once ordered to kill British agents in order to protect Barbie;

SS men continued to work for the CIA in Latin America, teaching and using the techniques of torture developed under Hitler.

The implications are staggering. Did the U.S. protect Nazi murderers, even as they continued their murderous activities, while our government denied any knowledge of these people? Did we rely upon information and evaluations by these murderers to help formulate our foreign policy during the height of the Cold War? Did we cover up their activities in repressive regimes in Latin America? What connections, if any, exist between the original Nazis and their current heirs?

And, it is not only the questions listed above that need answering. We know that our space program was aided in its development by Nazi scientists, recruited in Operation Paperclip, scientists who utilized slave labor in their work on the v-rockets and other programs. We know that Nazi murderers and Nazi collaborators were used and protected, and even sheltered here in the United States. But, we do not know how many, or what impact they had on U.S. policy. We do not know how many of these people evaded justice, or continued on their path of prejudice and persecution, protected by agents of our government, and sheltered under a cloak of secrecy. Nor can we be sure we know everything that we should know about Kurt Waldheim, and how a Nazi could become Secretary-General of the United Nations. We have mentioned the Rat Line, an escape route for Nazis with Vatican connections (not run by the Vatican, but by a Croatian priest attached to a seminary there), but, as is well known, many unanswered questions remain about the role of the Vatican then. Answers, and perhaps even more questions, can be resting in these archives that are to be unsealed.

I have attempted to sketch only some of the issues that might be addressed by the opening of the files. Of course, many more, such as those related to gold and material goods, can also be aided by this procedure. Ryan’s 1983 report concluded that “Justice delayed is justice denied.” Those words were published 16 years ago! How many Nazi war criminals and murderers have had their meeting with justice delayed, and ultimately denied because documents were as Dabringhaus wrote, “conviently missing,” hidden and sealed in United States archives? While the delay of over 50 years since the end of the war has, inexcusably, allowed war criminals and mass murderers to evade justice, to hide in the U.S., and perhaps even influence and effect U.S. policy and the lives of untold numbers throughout the world, at least now we can say that this attempt to open the record stands as a vital, courageous and necessary response. But this effort must be multinational in scope and so archives in Germany, Russia and other countries must be brought into this effort. And while justice may ultimately be lacking, at least we will have a more complete record, including a record of our mistakes, from which we can learn. The late Isaiah Berlin wrote that “The conception of man as an actor… lies at the heart of all truly historical study.” To learn how to act, how to behave, we must learn and know our history, to its fullest extent. The opening of these archives is a significant step towards that self-knowledge, and one that could and should be both welcomed and used as a model for other subjects and societies.

————————————————————————————————————————1 Anthrony Cave Brown “Bodyguard of Lies” New York, 1975, p.432

2 “The U.S. protected almost one-third of the most senior SS officers” Daniel Moore, London Times, May 22, 1999

3 Erhard Dabringhause, Klaus Barbie, Washington. 1974, p.10

4 Alan Ryan, Klaus Barbie and the U.S. Government: A Report to the Attorney General of the United States, August, 1983, p. 212.

5 Ibid., p. 214.

6 Cited in E. Dabringhaus, p.162 [ Research Papers ]

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Actually, I have been aware of the CIA's disinfomation campaign for a length of time, especially on UFOs and you can back-track to the Robertson Panel's recommendations in 1953 and get the rest of the story. I also remember the CIA's Glomar Explorer and its cover story for that ship, and to make a point, its cover story regarding that ship was no more dissimilar than its cover stories on UFOs and I would like for you to examine the CIA's cover story concerning UFOs of the 1950's that it sought to explain away as the U-2, which was false. The U-2 was explained away not as a UFO as the CIA falsely claimed, but as a high altitude weather aircraft.

The first time I read that story about the CIA's claim on the U-2, I knew that it was false but there were those who never knew the rest of the story so they basically took the CIA's explanation as law.

Here this book proves that the U.S. hired some 1,200 Nazis as just scientists!!

Science, Technology, and Reparations: Exploitation and Plunder in Postwar Germany (Hardcover)

by John Gimbel

Hardcover: 280 pages

Publisher: Stanford University Press (April 1990)

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name='drew hempel' date='Sep 16 2006, 01:44 AM' post='1351939']

Of course you haven't read Nick Redfern's book have you!

Not yet but that brings up a question.

Does Nick Redfern believe that some UFOs are extraterrestrial flying vehicles of alien beings?

Edited by skyeagle409
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Not yet but that brings up a question.

Does Nick Redfern believe that some UFOs are extraterrestrial flying vehicles of alien beings?

Well I've seen lots of videos of testimony but again the problem is that Corso has been documented to be a disinfo agent for the CIA!! I'm sure there are tons like him -- Bill Moore is another example. Redfern gives that actual government documents exposing many more disinfo agents in the UFO scene. So 1) Greer has a history of shady practices and crazy beliefs (probably most of us do as well but this is specifically in regards to the topic at hand -- UFOs and an "alien invasion") 2) Testimony from high level miltary and scientists and government officials is great but they can just as easily be disinfo agents or just naive. 3) I've gone over the disclosure project website in detail.

As I stated I had a very close encounter with a big, flat equilateral black triangle, preceded by spheres of light doing inexplicable manuevers, each a different color. This triangle come out of the horizon and then flew right over the north end of my yard -- so close I could have hit it with a rock!! That was Summer of 1997. It was also right after the X-Files! I didn't know that this same sighting had occurred hundreds of times all over the world, -- a slow, humming black equilateral triangle at low flying height. I didn't know that this craft had been featured on the X-Files!!

Anyway here's an interesting article on some of the history about Nazi UFO technology. Again if you read Nick Redfern's two last books -- "Body Snatchers in the Desert" and "On the Trail of the Saucer Spies" -- it's very clear that there are tons of top secret MILITARY CRAFT and also that the CIA and FBI have harrassed and confused and attacked people in order to hide this technology.

http://conspiracyjournal.com

Nazi Flying Saucers Part II

Milton Keynes, England, it's not the kind of place where we expect to get new information on real life flying saucers. But after our recent report on a shaped aircraft in Canada, top secret American saucer projects and Germany's development of craft like this during World War II, a SIGHTINGS Researcher received A letter from viewer D. Robin Stowell.

A typesetter by trade, Stowell alerted us to the book, Brighter Than A Thousand Suns. An authoritative history of the race to build the first Atomic Bomb. Stowell typeset the original manuscript nearly forty years ago. And never forgot this brief reference to a Nazi Saucer that could out-maneuver any allied aircraft.

Four decades after publication, Stowell found a copy of the out of print reference book and confirmed what he had long remembered. The footnote describes German Saucers that were forty five yards across, capable of reaching speeds over Mach One and climbing to an elevation of nearly eight miles. Some experts believe that these Nazi Saucers could have been responsible for the legendary Foo Fighter sightings over Europe late in World War II. But if they were, it still does not explain Foo Fighters spotted over the Pacific during the same period.

There were a number of brilliant German scientists and engineers working on flying disc-shaped craft, many of which used traditional rocket/jet propulsion techniques...but some, apparently used methods far in advance of anything commonly known at that time. Or now, for that matter

Dr. Richard Miethe whose group allegedly built saucer craft at Breslau, came to Canada after the war and worked on saucer designs with the A.V. Roe Company on a joint American-Canadian project which 'officially' produced only a barely functional 'hovercraft' type 'saucer.' Most researchers today consider the Roe 'saucer' nothing less than a diversion. What was Miethe really working on?

Another highly-advanced group was led by Dr. Viktor Schauberger, who worked in Austria at the Kertl factory in Vienna. Schauberger's incredible craft allegedly utilized a tornado-like vortex which produced magnetic effects said to cause levitation. Two Schauberger models, both made of copper, were said to have been built with one of them successfully test flown. The story goes that it flew so well, in fact, that it impacted the inside roof of the hangar and was destroyed.

The SS which was apparently overseeing this and all German saucer research, allegedly stopped further experimentation after accident, dismissed Schauberger, and took all of his work and wizardry to some other location for further development. After the war, Schauberger was lured to the US by an alleged CIA front company and was then duped into signing a contract in English (he knew only German) giving the company all rights and title to his inventions, concepts, and designs. He was then returned to Austria...and died five days later.

As stated earlier, many of the German saucer craft were predicated upon known, if quite exotic, technology. Our source for the extraordinary drawing below has been thoroughly interviewed over a lengthy period of time and is known to be of impeccable integrity. We have seen some of the hundreds of wartime documents from his long service with the Horten brothers, including personal correspondence from them to him.

When queried as to how he was able to obtain the drawing of the disc craft below, he would only say, "Sneaky...sneaky. No one was ever to know anything about this...I had to get the drawing from a friend who was very close to the project." He said he would never

compromise his friend by disclosing his identity.

Our source described how he was stationed at an airbase in Prague during the war while undergoing advanced mechanical training and also doing some teaching. On a number of occasions during his time at the base he heard, what he believes, was the disc-shaped vehicle shown in the drawing below being test flown. We say 'heard' because all those living on, or even near, the test area of the base were utterly forbidden to look out the windows...under penalty of being shot on the spot. In fact, all the windows in homes facing the test area were blacked out. No exceptions. He described the sound of the craft as absolutely 'deafening.' This would come as no surprise, given the 5 engines...three for lift and two for forward thrust...indicated in the drawing below. This is a simple overview schematic of the craft which does not, obviously, reflect the finished detail of the pilot(s) controls, seating, and final interior configuration of the operational model.

Our source said the engines were nottypcial jet engines but were kerosene-fueled turbines of a type which he was told were capable of producing very high speeds. The drawing in his possession and shown here may be of the Schriever disc which was said to have used rotating metallic vanes set within the perimeter of the disc to achieve vertical lift similar to produced a helicopter. Once airborne, the two thrust turbines took over to push the craft on its way. Our source says he believes the first test flight occurred in 1942.

What happened to these craft after the war? Our source says that both the Russians and Americans were aware of the ultra-secret German disc research programs and had an agreement they would not shoot the discs down or apparently bomb the research facilities because the craft posed no hostile threat...unlike the facilities at Peenemunde. The eventual outcome of the war was a virtual certainty and both countries wanted the disc technology as one of the prime spoils of war.

As research continues probing the advanced German WWII programs, it is becoming more evident that at least some of the early - and current - UFO sightings may be directly related to, and descendants of, disc craft like the one depicted in this newly unearthed historic drawing.

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name='drew hempel' date='Sep 16 2006, 01:51 AM' post='1351952']

Well I've seen lots of videos of testimony but again the problem is that Corso has been documented to be a disinfo agent for the CIA!! I'm sure there are tons like him -- Bill Moore is another example. Redfern gives that actual government documents exposing many more disinfo agents in the UFO scene.

But, does Nick Redfern believe that some UFOs are ET flying vehicles visiting Earth?

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name='drew hempel' date='Sep 16 2006, 01:51 AM' post='1351952']

Nazi Flying Saucers Part II

Milton Keynes, England, it's not the kind of place where we expect to get new information on real life flying saucers. But after our recent report on a shaped aircraft in Canada, top secret American saucer projects and Germany's development of craft like this during World War II, a SIGHTINGS Researcher received A letter from viewer D. Robin Stowell.

A typesetter by trade, Stowell alerted us to the book, Brighter Than A Thousand Suns. An authoritative history of the race to build the first Atomic Bomb. Stowell typeset the original manuscript nearly forty years ago. And never forgot this brief reference to a Nazi Saucer that could out-maneuver any allied aircraft.

Four decades after publication, Stowell found a copy of the out of print reference book and confirmed what he had long remembered. The footnote describes German Saucers that were forty five yards across, capable of reaching speeds over Mach One and climbing to an elevation of nearly eight miles. Some experts believe that these Nazi Saucers could have been responsible for the legendary Foo Fighter sightings over Europe late in World War II. But if they were, it still does not explain Foo Fighters spotted over the Pacific during the same period.

Fact of the matter is, the Germans thought the "Foo Fighters" were our machines. Are these German "Foo Fighters"? Are they saucer-shaped?

http://ufologie.net/pics/foo01.jpg

Our source said the engines were nottypcial jet engines but were kerosene-fueled turbines of a type which he was told were capable of producing very high speeds. The drawing in his possession and shown here may be of the Schriever disc which was said to have used rotating metallic vanes set within the perimeter of the disc to achieve vertical lift similar to produced a helicopter. Once airborne, the two thrust turbines took over to push the craft on its way. Our source says he believes the first test flight occurred in 1942.

But, I am very sure the craft could not fly at 7000 mph with simple jet engines nor conduct right-angled maneuvers at over 40 Gs.

Edited by skyeagle409
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probably most of us do as well but this is specifically in regards to the topic at hand -- UFOs and an "alien invasion")

Funny how you can even say greer's veiws are outlandish yet you come in here with no physical evidence, not even a single document only promotion of books yay. And sorry i do know what google is, but it is not the basis of every fact on earth, infact if anything you are being lied to and decieved far more using google then you would to just go talk in person. Yet again you seem to only have promotion up your sleeves, do you know nick redfern in person? i believe you do because every single statement you have is backed up with a book which also doesnt have factual evidence contained unless you can prove otherwise by scanning in some of these classified documents and such.

And i hate to say its almost obvious why you been arrested so many times lol. Maybe one day you will realize everything at your hands is not always the truth, and you dont need a degree to say you do :)

Of course you haven't read Nick Redfern's book have you! As I've stated the CIA worked with the Nazis to cover up this technology and to spread alien invasion disinformation! That's well documented!!

Yes you actually only seem to claim that Nick Redfern is the only one who exposes the truth. So for you to believe everything you read in that book or story as we may call it, and then come on here telling people who have a different theory/opinion, you jump to the gun saying they have to read a certain book in order to know the truth.

Why isen't this book just online , why do you have to pay to know the truth? Funny cause i sure am not gonna pay 20$ to read 400 pages of a book that will only expand my "Imagination"

Until the time where its not words and physical evidence then ill believe all these claims, but they sound a hell of alot more outlandish , and long as an entire book just to explain one sentance, then even the ones saying they got abducted and brought to planet Zorklon. Oo

Our source said the engines were nottypcial jet engines but were kerosene-fueled turbines of a type which he was told were capable of producing very high speeds. The drawing in his possession and shown here may be of the Schriever disc which was said to have used rotating metallic vanes set within the perimeter of the disc to achieve vertical lift similar to produced a helicopter. Once airborne, the two thrust turbines took over to push the craft on its way. Our source says he Believes the first test flight occurred in 1942.

To sum it up your entire basis of evidence relies on "sources/drawings/and beliefs. In all of this i don't see how you even come up with any conclusion that it actually did happen to fly, and how well it flew. For you to claim that a drawing is even evidence that this happend, and a source telling you it did, is far more radical of a claim then anything else brought forth here. You say that the entire disclosure project is made up of people who are either Disinfo agents ( :w00t: MIB) or nieve. I think you should go look further into your sources of information because quite frankly your reading books that are imaginations brought forward by people who have too much time on their hands so they write a book on it. (my opinion)

Edited by Blazea58
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To sum it up your entire basis of evidence relies on "sources/drawings/and beliefs.

If you add grainy picture and blurry video to that list you get ufology. :)

Using psuedoscience to counter psuedoscience.

The question is and always should be can any of the sides on this debate proove their claims.

If your a beleiver can you proove an alien pressence here on Earth? If your a skeptic can you proove they aren't. If you support the idea of a cover-up without the aliens (me) can you proove your claims?

The simple answer to these questions are NO. It is absurd to say that you have 100% certainty in something and not be able to back it up. Some perhaps more then others do this alot and rely on faith or gut instinct nothing more.

I think it is high time that people outside ufology and various skeptical groups started a real honest to god investigation and solve this mystery once and for all.

I here people say 'well I beleive it so it must be true' and people saying 'well no it's not'. Fact is no one can give a definative answer. I think all claims made by UFO groups such as DP and other groups as well as well known figures need to be investigated. Either they are on to something which to me seems unlikely. Or they aren't in which case another question comes up.

Over 90% beleive in a UFO/alien connection exists. They are now the majority. The question is would it cause mass panic as it did in the WOTW broadcast or not? Would the revelation that Aliens have not visited Earth cause people many probably a huge chunk of this group break down as they have dedicated their lives to this beleif system? Or would they deny what they were shown?

Such a revelation could be detrimental to society still. Although not like the WOTW broadcast of course. I mean back then they never had TV only radio. We today have telephone networks, sat links, internet, TV etc. It would not be hard to see if something is real or not.

I think the 'panic' excuse has worn pretty thin on most. No one will really panic except Americas enemies hehe. It is simply not a valid reason anymore and hasn't been for quite some time.

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name='GanjaGuru' date='Sep 16 2006, 10:22 AM' post='1352336']

If you add grainy picture and blurry video to that list you get ufology. :)

What does blurry photos have to do with it? Nothing!

The question is and always should be can any of the sides on this debate proove their claims.

I have posted data after data and made my claim on ET reality based on the data evidence, my own experience and those of my compatriots, and challenged the skeptic to refute the data evidence that I had provided and yet, most skeptics failed to take on that challenge and those that have, ran to skeptical websites that are well-known for providing disinformation.

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name='GanjaGuru' date='Sep 16 2006, 10:22 AM' post='1352336']

If you add grainy picture and blurry video to that list you get ufology. :)

That is yet another silly ploy of the skeptics that fails time after time given the fact that there are many clear UFO videos and photos, which simply proves that the skeptics use that flawed ploy as a means to debunk UFO videos and photos.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- <^>

ZEN........The Art of Debunkery

* "If photographs or other visual media depicting anomalous aerial phenomena have been presented, argue that since images can now be digitally manipulated they prove nothing. Assert this regardless of the vintage of the material or the circumstances of its acquisition. Insist that the better the quality of a UFO photo, the greater the likelihood of fraud. Photos that have passed every known test may therefore be held to be the most perfectly fraudulent of all! "

http://members.aol.com/ddrasin/zen.html

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------- <^>

The question is and always should be can any of the sides on this debate proove their claims. If your a beleiver can you proove an alien pressence here on Earth?

We can use photos, videos and a multitude of the data evidence already collected over the decades to prove that some UFOs are not those of mankind. In other words, using the "process-of-elimination" to eliminate mankind as owners of those exotic flying machines.

If your a skeptic can you proove they aren't.

They can't but there are some skeptics who take their cues from skeptical websites and expect the references there to be factual. A case if point, Tim Printy's skeptical website is well known to many and one of the most popular skeptical websites used as a reference by skeptics. I have repeatedly notified Tim Printy several months ago that his website was flawed. For an example, he claims that Sgt Robert Smith, an Air Force cargo loader, was wrong when he claimed that C-54s had operated out of Kirtland AFB in 1947. Tim Printy's website used that testimony to discredit the Roswell witnesses such as Sgt Smith. Well, let's take a look why I have repeadedly warned skeptics not to use references from those skeptical websites.

---------------------------------------------------------------------- <^>

From Tim Printy's Skeptical Website on the Roswell Incident BEFORE he made his change just the other day.

"Smith may have flown to Kirtland but not in 1947. A C-54 could not land at Kirtland during this time period because the runway was too small.

---------------------------------------------------------------------- <^>

Tim Printy now knows that atomic bomb components for "Fat Man" and "Little Boy" were flown out of Kirtland AFB aboard C-54s. In fact, B-29s, which are larger than the C-54, also flew out of Kirtland. Tim Printy didn't do his homework and many skeptics ran to him to assistance to where the believers ate them up when they came back and provided the raw meat given to them by Tim Printy.

Note Tim Printy's admission made recently on his website.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------- <^>

Tim Printy's Admission

NOTE: I originally wrote this with Kirtland AFB being the place a C-54 could not land. Thanks to an e-mail I received, it was pointed out the Kirtland was handling C-54s prior to 1947 and this must be incorrect. I looked at what I wrote and, after re-reading Pflock's book, I realized I had goofed and misunderstood what was being described. I assumed the two places were in the same location.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------- <^>

He cites Pflock as his source of information but Pflock has had his own problems with the facts.

If you support the idea of a cover-up without the aliens (me) can you proove your claims?

The government cover-up has been proven time after time, from Roswell in 1947 to the present. Review that recommendations of the Robertson group in 1953.

I here people say 'well I beleive it so it must be true' and people saying 'well no it's not'. Fact is no one can give a definative answer. I think all claims made by UFO groups such as DP and other groups as well as well known figures need to be investigated.

That is what I am talking about when I state that some skeptics do not do their homework. Their claims have already been investigated and some cases are documented on the Department of Defense's own website. What ever gave you the idea that the DP witnesses came in empty handed? Haven't you been researching their claims? I think not!

Edited by skyeagle409
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That is yet another silly ploy of the skeptics that fails time after time given the fact that there are many clear UFO videos and photos, which simply proves that the skeptics use that flawed ploy as a means to debunk UFO videos and photos.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- <^>

ZEN........The Art of Debunkery

* "If photographs or other visual media depicting anomalous aerial phenomena have been presented, argue that since images can now be digitally manipulated they prove nothing. Assert this regardless of the vintage of the material or the circumstances of its acquisition. Insist that the better the quality of a UFO photo, the greater the likelihood of fraud. Photos that have passed every known test may therefore be held to be the most perfectly fraudulent of all! "

http://members.aol.com/ddrasin/zen.html

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------- <^>

We can use photos, videos and a multitude of the data evidence already collected over the decades to prove that some UFOs are not those of mankind. In other words, using the "process-of-elimination" to eliminate mankind as owners of those exotic flying machines.

They can't but there are some skeptics who take their cues from skeptical websites and expect the references there to be factual. A case if point, Tim Printy's skeptical website is well known to many and one of the most popular skeptical websites used as a reference by skeptics. I have repeatedly notified Tim Printy several months ago that his website was flawed. For an example, he claims that Sgt Robert Smith, an Air Force cargo loader, was wrong when he claimed that C-54s had operated out of Kirtland AFB in 1947. Tim Printy's website used that testimony to discredit the Roswell witnesses such as Sgt Smith. Well, let's take a look why I have repeadedly warned skeptics not to use references from those skeptical websites.

---------------------------------------------------------------------- <^>

From Tim Printy's Skeptical Website on the Roswell Incident BEFORE he made his change just the other day.

"Smith may have flown to Kirtland but not in 1947. A C-54 could not land at Kirtland during this time period because the runway was too small.

---------------------------------------------------------------------- <^>

Tim Printy now knows that atomic bomb components for "Fat Man" and "Little Boy" were flown out of Kirtland AFB aboard C-54s. In fact, B-29s, which are larger than the C-54, also flew out of Kirtland. Tim Printy didn't do his homework and many skeptics ran to him to assistance to where the believers ate them up when they came back and provided the raw meat given to them by Tim Printy.

Note Tim Printy's admission made recently on his website.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------- <^>

Tim Printy's Admission

NOTE: I originally wrote this with Kirtland AFB being the place a C-54 could not land. Thanks to an e-mail I received, it was pointed out the Kirtland was handling C-54s prior to 1947 and this must be incorrect. I looked at what I wrote and, after re-reading Pflock's book, I realized I had goofed and misunderstood what was being described. I assumed the two places were in the same location.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------- <^>

He cites Pflock as his source of information but Pflock has had his own problems with the facts.

The government cover-up has been proven time after time, from Roswell in 1947 to the present. Review that recommendations of the Robertson group in 1953.

That is what I am talking about when I state that some skeptics do not do their homework. Their claims have already been investigated and some cases are documented on the Department of Defense's own website. What ever gave you the idea that the DP witnesses came in empty handed? Haven't you been researching their claims? I think not!

CIA PROMOTION OF ALIEN INVASION AS MIND CONTROL PROPAGANDA!!

One New Age channelling cult, above all the rest, has had a huge - very disturbing influence on hundreds of thousands of devotees worldwide. Known as 'The Nine', its disciples include cutting edge scientists, multi-millionaire industrialists and leading politicians. This exclusive extract based on The Startgate Conspiracy by Lynn Picknett and Clive Prince looks at the sinister origins of The Nine...

"I am the beginning. I am the end. I am the emissary. But the original time I was on the Planet Earth was 34,000 of your years ago. I am the balance. And when I say "I" - I mean because I am an emissary for The Nine. It is not I , but it is the group - We are nine principles of the Universe, yet together we are one."

The declaration above is typical of the channelled pronouncements of the Council of Nine or just The Nine,. They contain all the usual New Age ingredients of grandiose statements, shaky grammar and unprovable predictions. But unlike all the other channelling cults, that of The Nine has serious clout. Perhaps the reason for this is that they claim to be the Ennead, or the nine major gods of ancient Egypt (see panel). Or could there be another reason, one that owes more to The X-Files than the Pyramid Texts?

Although The Nine may appear to be quintessentially a modern phenomenon, our research uncovered its truly astonishing pedigree. In fact, the story begins nearly 50 years ago, in a private research laboratory in Glen Cove, Maine, called the Round Table Foundation, run by a medical doctor named Andrija Puharich (also known as Henry K Puharich).Set up in 1948 to research the paranormal, among the noted psychics studied at the Foundation were the famous Irish medium Eileen Garrett and the Dutch clairvoyant Peter Hurkos (Pieter van de Hirk).Prominent members included the influential philosopher and inventor Arthur M Young and the socialite Alice Bouverie (née Astor).

In December 1952, Puharich brought into his laboratory an Indian mystic named Dr D G Vinod, who began to channel The Nine or the Nine Principles,. In the months before Vinod returned to India, a group met regularly to hear The Nine,s channelled wisdom. Never known for their modesty, The Nine proclaimed themselves to be God, stating "God is nobody else than we together, the Nine Principles of God."

Three years later, there appeared to be independent confirmation of their existence. In Mexico, Puharich and Young met Charles and Lillian Laughead, former Christian missionaries who were by then prominent in the burgeoning UFO contactee movement. (For a description of their involvement in the Dorothy Martin circle, see Jerome Clark,s When Prophecy Failed, in FT117.) Back in the States a few weeks later, Puharich received a letter from the Laugheads containing messages received by their group,s channeller. This message also claimed to come from the Nine Principles, even amazingly including references to the earlier communications transmitted through Dr Vinod. Could The Nine possibly be for real?

Perhaps the answer is embedded in the career of Puharich himself. After disbanding the Round Table Foundation in 1958, he worked for 10 years as an inventor of medical devices and achieved international recognition as a parapsychologist, most famously studying the Brazilian psychic surgeon, Arigo (José Pedro de Freitas). But all that was to pale into insignificance because, in 1971, Puharich discovered Uri Geller.

At their first meetings in Tel Aviv in 1971, Puharich hypnotised Geller in an attempt to find out where his abilities came from. As a result, the young Israeli started to channel Spectra, an entity which claimed to be a conscious super-computer aboard a spaceship. However, Puharich suggested to him that there might be a connection with the Nine Principles, and Spectra readily agreed that there was. The Nine claimed that they had programmed Geller with his powers as a young child.

Through Geller, The Nine alerted Puharich to his life,s mission, which was to use Geller,s talents to alert the world to an imminent mass landing of spaceships that would bring representatives of The Nine. However, Geller by now an international psychic superstar bowed out in 1973 and has resolutely turned his back on The Nine ever since. Puharich had to find other channels. He joined up with aristocratic former racing driver Sir John Whitmore and Florida-based psychic and healer Phyllis Schlemmer. They found a new channeller a Daytona cook known to history only by the pseudonym Bobby Horne, who lived to regret his dealings with The Nine. Driven to the brink of suicide by their constant demands, he too dropped out of the scene his despair being dismissed by Whitmore as "signs of instability". After this, Phyllis Schlemmer was appointed the authorised spokesperson for the entity known simply as Tom, who represented The Nine

Puharich, Whitmore and Schlemmer then set up Lab Nine at Puharich,s estate in Ossining, New York. The Nine,s disciples included multi-millionaire businessmen (many hiding behind pseudonyms and including members of Canada,s richest family, the Bronfmans), European nobility, scientists from the Stamford Research Institute and at least one prominent political figure who was a personal friend of President Gerald Ford.

We also know that Lyall Watson (then the darling of the alternative scene because of his seminal 1973 book Supernature) was involved, as was the influential counter-culture guru Ira Einhorn and Gene Roddenberry, creator of Star Trek.

The key to predicting eclipses is noticing that they occur in cycles, or at more or less regular intervals. The Sun goes round the sky once a year; the Moon once a month. This means that, every month, the Moon overtakes, the sun. This happens at the New Moon, and this is when solar eclipses occur. But, of course, we don,t get an eclipse every New Moon. This is because the Moon has an elliptical orbit: sometimes it passes above the Sun when it overtakes it, sometimes below. But the Moon,s elliptical orbit has its own cycle: it returns to the same place it started from every 18 years or so. Thus if seen from the same place on Earth an eclipse will be followed by another one just over 18 years later.

Roddenberry was part of that circle in 1974 and 1975, and even produced the screenplay for a movie about The Nine. How much he was influenced by them is unknown, although it is said that some of their concepts found their way into the early Star Trek movies, and The Next Generation and Deep Space Nine (what a giveaway!) series.

(There is a character named Vinod, in one Deep Space Nine episode.) Another key player in Lab Nine was Dr James J Hurtak, who was appointed Puharich,s second-in-command by The Nine. In fact, Hurtak had been independently channelling The Nine since 1973. Puharich and Whitmore commissioned British writer Stuart Holroyd to write an account of their adventures, which appeared in 1977 as Prelude to the Landing on Planet Earth (retitled Briefings for the Landing on Planet Earth in paperback)

n this extraordinary book the true identity of the Nine and of Tom was finally revealed. Far from being the chummy character that his rather avuncular name suggests, Tom is actually Atum, the creator-god of the ancient Egyptian religion of Heliopolis, and Uncle Tom with his eight mates are none other than the Great Ennead of Heliopolis,

But even with such impressive contacts, all was not well with Puharich. Lab Nine broke up in 1978 after a series of mysterious events that culminated in an arson attack on the Ossining estate, and he fled to Mexico, claiming that he was being persecuted by the CIA. He returned to the USA two years later, and appears to have played no further part in The Nine story. He died in 1995 after falling down the stairs in his South Carolina home.

However, The Nine continued. Not only did Schlemmer and Whitmore continue their mission, but Dr Hurtak has also moved on. He has become a major player in the unfolding millennial drama currently being played out at Giza, but perhaps more importantly he has established himself as a New Age guru par excellence, travelling the world giving workshops on his book of channelled revelations from The Nine, The Keys of Enoch. Written and laid out in classic Biblical style, its darkly apocalyptic vision has huge numbers of influential devotees.This we find very worrying.

Another Nine channel an Englishwoman named Jenny O,Connor was introduced to the avant garde Esalen Institute in San Francisco by Sir John Whitmore. She and The Nine became so influential there that they held seminars and unbelievably were actually listed on the Institute,s staff, even successfully ordering the sacking of its chief finance officer and the reorganisation of its entire management structure..

This should concern us, because many influential people attended The Nine,s Esalen seminars, including Russians who were part of the Institute,s Soviet Exchange programme. Some of these later rose to prominence in the Gorbachev regime and were instrumental in the downfall of Communism. (The Esalen Institute now runs the US branch of the Gorbachev Foundation.)

The Nine are very much still with us. One of their recent channels, who is also in contact with Tom, is the American writer David M Myers. He is co-author with Britain,s David S Percy of that extraordinary tome Two-Thirds, a history of the galaxy and the human race according to Myer,s otherwordly contacts (who clearly have no sense of the absurd). Percy best known as a champion of the Face on Mars, and the hoaxing, of the Apollo moon landings was at one time part of the Schlemmer circle.

Among the other major proponents of the monuments, of Mars and their alleged connection with ancient Egypt is none other than Dr James Hurtak The Nine,s great prophet who has promoted this idea since as long ago as 1973. Richard C Hoagland familiar to FT readers as another unrepentant Mars Face, enthusiast is also clearly under The Nine,s spell. David Myers and David Percy were, respectively, American and European Director of Operations for Hoagland,s Mars Mission. In fact, his interpretation of the monuments, of Mars comes directly from The Nine. Flake though he may appear (increasingly in these hallowed pages), but his influence over huge swathes of the hungrier mystery seekers is undeniable. This is the man who addresses rapt audiences at the United Nations.

But it is in the New Age channelling circuit that The Nine have truly come into their own. In any other circles their true agenda would no doubt have been rumbled long ago, but this is the New Age. Anything The Nine say must be sweetness and light, right? But an objective reading of their divine pronouncements reveal the first stirrings of something very nasty in Paradise.

Their words appeared in 1992 as the book The Only Planet of Choice, credited to transceiver, Schlemmer and edited by Mary Bennett (a one-time member of the Schlemmer circle who also edited Myers and Percy,s Two-Thirds). This has had an unprecedented influence over the New Age. According to Palden Jenkins (editor of an earlier edition of Only Planet) more and more New Age channelling groups are realising, that the real source of their wisdom is The Nine.8 In fact, we have discerned what amounts to a campaign by The Nine or their adherents to take over, the New Age. It would be a mistake to underestimate the economic or even political potential of this vast subculture rich pickings indeed.

But The Nine,s influence does not extend merely to New Age channelling circles. Andrija Puharich, James Hurtak and Richard Hoagland have all lectured at the United Nations in New York. And individuals connected with The Nine are also known to have influence with Vice-President Al Gore.

Of course, if The Nine really are the ancient gods of Egypt, then surely there could be fewer more significant events than their return. One may be justified in thinking that the more leading politicians who fall under their influence the better; but are they really the ancient Ennead of Egypt? Can it be that they have actually returned to sort us all out, scattering love and enlightenment from their high moral ground?

Tom, in The Only Planet of Choice, chooses his words carefully as he explains that all the races of the Earth were seeded from space-gods except one, the "indigenous race", the blacks. He is very careful to urge us not to make an issue out of this. After all, it,s not the black race,s fault that they have no divine spark like the rest of us.

But The Nine,s influence does not extend merely to New Age channelling circles. Andrija Puharich, James Hurtak and Richard Hoagland have all lectured at the United Nations in New York. And individuals connected with The Nine are also known to have influence with Vice-President Al Gore. Of course, if The Nine really are the ancient gods of Egypt, then surely there could be fewer more significant events than their return. One may be justified in thinking that the more leading politicians who fall under their influence the better; but are they really the ancient Ennead of Egypt? Can it be that they have actually returned to sort us all out, scattering love and enlightenment from their high moral ground?

Tom, in The Only Planet of Choice, chooses his words carefully as he explains that all the races of the Earth were seeded from space-gods except one, the "indigenous race", the blacks. He is very careful to urge us not to make an issue out of this. After all, it,s not the black race,s fault that they have no divine spark like the rest of us.

Perhaps the most disturbing aspect of the history of The Nine is its relationship to the career of Andrija Puharich. Recent research has revealed Puharich to have a distinctly sinister side. As an Army doctor in the 1950s, he was deeply involved with the CIA,s notorious MKULTRA mind control project (see panel). He together with the infamous Dr Sidney Gottlieb experimented with a variety of techniques to change or induce actual thought processes even to creating the impression of voices in the head. These techniques included the use of drugs, hypnosis and beaming radio signals directly into the subject,s brain. And, significantly, he was engaged in this work at exactly the same time that The Nine made their first appearance at the Round Table Foundation. The Foundation itself is now known to have been largely funded by the Pentagon as a front for its medical and parapsychological research. Puharich was still working for the CIA in the early 1970s, when he brought Uri Geller out of Israel. Puharich,s use of hypnosis is particularly interesting in The Nine circle. In the case of Uri Geller and Bobby Horne, he first hypnotised them and then suggested that they were in touch with The Nine and lo, they were! Ira Einhorn a close associate of Puharich,s during the 1970s confirmed to us that he believed that Puharich was "humanly directing" The Nine communications.

The evidence we have gathered strongly suggests that Tom and his fellow gods originated, not in the stars, but behind closed doors as part of a CIA mind control experiment. And what happened to that experiment? Now with hundreds of thousands of devotees, some in very high places, can The Nine be deemed a success? Of course, that depends very much on what the CIA had in mind. With their subtle racist propaganda, perhaps the flaky New Age Nine should worry the hell out of us.

A fully annotated version of this article appears in Fortean Times 126

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We can use photos, videos and a multitude of the data evidence already collected over the decades to prove that some UFOs are not those of mankind. In other words, using the "process-of-elimination" to eliminate mankind as owners of those exotic flying machines.

That is pure 100% psuedoscience. The process of eliminationm through watching videos and photos is not proof enough to end the debate or it would have already. Only the true beleivers have eliminated the human element. Again neither side can proove their arguments.

They can't but there are some skeptics who take their cues from skeptical websites and expect the references there to be factual. A case if point, Tim Printy's skeptical website is well known to many and one of the most popular skeptical websites used as a reference by skeptics. I have repeatedly notified Tim Printy several months ago that his website was flawed. For an example, he claims that Sgt Robert Smith, an Air Force cargo loader, was wrong when he claimed that C-54s had operated out of Kirtland AFB in 1947. Tim Printy's website used that testimony to discredit the Roswell witnesses such as Sgt Smith. Well, let's take a look why I have repeadedly warned skeptics not to use references from those skeptical websites.

To be honest with you i really don't care about who uses what as an information source ufo sites twist what they have and skeptic sites twist what they both do it for the same purpose. Do I care about Tom Printy or his airplanes not really. Only because it wasn't the issue.....

It also never prooved skeptics wrong and you right either. The only thing it shows is that some use flawed information. You simply dodged the question and went into let's debunk this guy and his website mode.

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