Debunking the Disclosure Project

[FireMoon]

^^^^^ Harsh but fair ...

[contactismade]

I thought so too.

[drew hempel]

I thought so too.

Nick Redfern’s new book “Body-Snatchers in the Desert” (2005) is an amazing expose on the true story behind Roswell: The use of handicapped Japanese for nuclear-powered aircraft experiments.

Redfern relies on new documents never published before and lots of original research that is ground-breaking. This book verifies the use of Nazi-based flying saucer technology and also how UFO-extraterrestrial psy-ops have played a crucial role in the Cold War.

This isn’t a hack job at all—it’s one of the most densely documented books I’ve read in a while.

Of course the main message is just how gruesome these experiments were and continue to be.

For further context a must read is Peter Levenda’s book “Sinister Forces, Vol. II” (2005).

Levenda documents the long cover-up between Nixon and the Dulles brothers in the early support of Nazis by the Bush Dynasty and the Skull and Bones Freemasons.

Levenda builds on comedian Robin Williams’ spook “The Manson-Nixon Line” in order to connect the bizarre psy-op talents of Nixon’s scene along with MK Ultra and the use of cults to create mass murdering assassins.

The book also does a great job exposing Pat Robertson’s attempt to milk Mobutu’s genocidal regime in Zaire and the general use of the evangelical Christians in extracting slave labor and resources under the guise of Born-Again righteousness.

The author starts the book with an extensive analysis of religion and politics in Southeast Asia—Malaysia and Indonesia—examining how the concept of sacred King transcends Hinduism, Islam and ethnic rivalries. In fact there’s an argument that Sumeria, the oldest civilization, originally came from Southeast Asia.

The ziggurats and pyramids found world-wide and at the center of Freemasonry are tied to tantric technology through professor Wendy Doniger’s analysis of evil in Hinduism. How the Sacred Mountain can go up or go down as good or evil but that this represents the energy in the spinal cords of humans.

The centerpiece of the book is an argument that Charles Manson may have done his killings as part of MK Ultra in connection with mob-drug dealers. There’s an extended detailed description of the killings that is too creepy to read.

Levenda argues that Nixon had to declare Manson guilty even though it jeopardized the trial because Nixon and Manson were competitors for channeling the same sinister forces.

The book ends with a debunking of the attack on Clinton, showing that the same right-wing corporate elite that funded the Nazis also attacked Clinton because he identified so closely with Kennedy.

The Democrats come across as the good guys in this book even though Levenda admits they are not innocent.

A similar analysis can be found in John Markoff’s new book on the cultural context of the personal computer revolution in California.

The climax of that book is recounting Jacque Vallee’s amazing experience of high level Pentagon officials walking in on the new computer engineers smoking pot as they discussed EST (a Scientology-MK Ultra cult).

Markoff details how many of these engineers, funded by DARPA, were working for defense contractors and doing A.I. research but also part of the free speech movement and doing tons of L.S.D. Many of them left to go back to the land and the nascent battles of Bill Gates against the Hackers are detailed.

The idea in this book is that the personal computer is really driven by Bucky Fuller’s “Whole Earth” liberation movement and that technology really isn’t bad in itself.

My favorite part of the book is the start of Chapter Six which states that the computer community is split between two kinds of people: Those who read and those who don’t.

What’s creepy is that some of these engineers were part of the same secret aircraft design tests that had also figured in the Nazi Fascist nuclear radiation experiments.

Bucky is a neo-Platonist and his philosophy is based on the transmutation of elements from the implosion power of “tensegrity.”

The heart of the P.C. revolution was the concept of the “augmented” human—the Actual Matrix Plan—which is also based on Platonic Mathematics—the Tetrad of Pythagoras.

While the elements are transmuted the only thing that doesn’t change is the non-local consciousness beyond spacetime.

drew hempel, M.A.

[skyeagle409]

name='drew hempel' date='Sep 19 2006, 04:43 PM' post='1356665']

Nick Redfern’s new book “Body-Snatchers in the Desert” (2005) is an amazing expose on the true story behind Roswell: The use of handicapped Japanese for nuclear-powered aircraft experiments.

Apparently, Nick Redfern is wrong and I do not see "1947" listed here.

http://www.aracnet.com/~pdxavets/a_tests.htm

And, nuclear test regarding humans is no longer secret and was revealed some time ago.

http://alsos.wlu.edu/information.aspx?id=2313

Review of Nick Redfern's Body Snatchers in the Desert

"Nick has also been given a bum steer about the NEPA project and the radiation shielding problems associated with it. He states that the project was cut back in 1957 and finally cancelled in 1961 after President Kennedy took office. In actuality, the GE ANP (General Electric Aircraft Nuclear Propulsion program) was at fullest bloom in the 1956-1960 time frame. I know because I worked there in the Radiation shielding unit as a nuclear physicist from September 1956 until November 1959."

" The budget for 1958 alone was $100,000,000. 3500 people were employed full time of whom 1100 were engineers and scientists. This was far more money and manpower than was spent at Fairchild and Oak Ridge in the late 1940s and early 1950s."

http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/sfredfern1.html

[rapid7]

According to this site.. It was actually UFO sightings which led to the proposal to development nuclear aircraft.

source http://www.project1947.com/gfb/gasser.htm

On January 24, 1949, FBI official D. M. Ladd memoed J. Edgar Hoover on a confidential discussion that Gasser had had with an FBI agent concerning UFOs. Gasser revealed that he had discussed "Flying Discs" with personnel from Wright-Patterson AFB and intimated that due to the range limitations of conventional propulsion, there was quiet discussion of the possibility that, if Soviet, the Discs were nuclear-powered.

To repeat: according the military head of the program at Oak Ridge, "Flying Disc" reports were a significant, if undisclosed, factor behind the Air Force's emphasis on nuclear aircraft propulsion research as of 1948.

[drew hempel]

Apparently, Nick Redfern is wrong and I do not see "1947" listed here.

http://www.aracnet.com/~pdxavets/a_tests.htm

And, nuclear test regarding humans is no longer secret and was revealed some time ago.

http://alsos.wlu.edu/information.aspx?id=2313

Review of Nick Redfern's Body Snatchers in the Desert

"Nick has also been given a bum steer about the NEPA project and the radiation shielding problems associated with it. He states that the project was cut back in 1957 and finally cancelled in 1961 after President Kennedy took office. In actuality, the GE ANP (General Electric Aircraft Nuclear Propulsion program) was at fullest bloom in the 1956-1960 time frame. I know because I worked there in the Radiation shielding unit as a nuclear physicist from September 1956 until November 1959."

" The budget for 1958 alone was $100,000,000. 3500 people were employed full time of whom 1100 were engineers and scientists. This was far more money and manpower than was spent at Fairchild and Oak Ridge in the late 1940s and early 1950s."

http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/sfredfern1.html

Look -- you can't quote from the editor of Phenomena Magazine's editorial -- THAT DEBUNKS STANTON FRIEDMAN'S CRITIQUE OF NICK REDFERN.

Why? Because not only do you refuse to read Redfern's book but you refuse to read the Phenomena Editor's analysis.

So you're a tool of obfuscation. You don't know what you're talking about!!

hahaha what a fool!!!!!!!!!

This is a website for "unexplained mysteries" -- yet you could care less about the "unexplained" -- you're REFUSING TO READ THE LATEST ANALYSIS ON ROSWELL. http://www.paraview.com/redfern/index4.htm

haha -- what an ignorant fool!!

Edited September 20, 2006 by drew hempel

[drew hempel]

According to this site.. It was actually UFO sightings which led to the proposal to development nuclear aircraft.

source http://www.project1947.com/gfb/gasser.htm

On January 24, 1949, FBI official D. M. Ladd memoed J. Edgar Hoover on a confidential discussion that Gasser had had with an FBI agent concerning UFOs. Gasser revealed that he had discussed "Flying Discs" with personnel from Wright-Patterson AFB and intimated that due to the range limitations of conventional propulsion, there was quiet discussion of the possibility that, if Soviet, the Discs were nuclear-powered.

To repeat: according the military head of the program at Oak Ridge, "Flying Disc" reports were a significant, if undisclosed, factor behind the Air Force's emphasis on nuclear aircraft propulsion research as of 1948.

SURE UFO SIGHTINGS -- NOT LITTLE GREEN MEN IN EXTRATERRESTRIAL CRAFT!!

A fascinating series of documents in the FBI files details Gasser's growing alarm about the possibility that the Green Fireballs were Soviet missiles of some kind.

So there you have it -- big deal.

Read Nick Redfern's book if you want to find out what is going on.

http://www.anomalistbooks.com/redfern.html

Edited September 20, 2006 by drew hempel

[lost_shaman]

drew ,

Gezz man!

Do you get paid to shamelessly promote Nick Redfern's Book's or what?

Seriously , I can tell you from having researched into this field for awhile that Nick Redfern doesn't have all the answers. Certainly not on every topic in Ufology!

[drew hempel]

drew ,

Gezz man!

Do you get paid to shamelessly promote Nick Redfern's Book's or what?

Seriously , I can tell you from having researched into this field for awhile that Nick Redfern doesn't have all the answers. Certainly not on every topic in Ufology!

No -- Redfern's work is just the easiest to read and the best documented. I'm amazed at how people start a thread on Roswell for example and then refuse to read the latest analysis on the topic!! This is find totally sublime. If you haven't noticed I've also recommended Jacque Vallee's classic "Messengers of Deception" (1979) and John Keel's classic "Operation Trojan Horse" and Curt Sutherly's "UFO Mysteries" (mid 1990s around 1998 I think) and also "The Trickster and the Paranormal" by George Hansen -- which has excellent debunking of more alien disinformation -- http://tricksterbook.com

Have you read any of those??

The True Believers of Extraterrestrial Invasion just keep repeating Stanton Friedman's critique of Redfern EVEN THOUGH IT'S ALREADY BEEN DEBUNKED BY THE EDITOR OF PHENOMENA MAGAZINE (just because it's not online doesn't mean it is nonexistent!!)

I already gave the link to the debunking of Friedman -- the Latest on the "true believer" analysis -- but of course the true believers would never read that stuff on their own -- NO THAT MIGHT CHALLENGE WHAT EVER SECRET KERNAL OF TRAUMA THEY HAVE THAT CAUSES THEM TO RUN TO SOME STUPID ALIEN CULT!! haha.

Here's a good take on the real followers of Stanton Friedman from Saucer Smear:

On the other hand, absolutely the worst - and funniest - UFO-related program we have ever seen on TV aired on Channel 33 in Miami on the evening of Jan. 20th, entitled "Alien Abduction: Incident in Lake County (Minnesota)". This was a show we had been hearing about, involving an entire family of 8 or 9 people who were abducted from their home by aliens.

These evil interplanetary entities blew out the electric power in their home, burned out the engine of their car, and even melted down one of the family's guns! Most of the family got nosebleeds at the same time from implants, received red blotches on their backs, and were generally persecuted. Meanwhile, a young man in the family keeps grinding a home video camera while all this is going on. No one is ever out of focus, and the sound is good too. People scream and rave, but a 5-year-old girl stays calm throughout. Apparently she had not read the script!

The final blow to any hope of authenticity comes at the end of the show, when the actors are listed in the credits - even listing the guys who played the part of the aliens!

None of this would really matter, except that one of the three principal narrators is none other than former nuclear physicist Stanton Friedman, hitting a new Low even for him! He tells "Smear" that he was asked general questions without ever having seen the video, and had no idea how his answers would be used. All the more reason, one would think, for him not to ruin what's left of his reputation by taking part in this farce at all!

We understand that there is an equally-horrible video out there somewhere, regarding "Area 51", and this includes a short interview with a live alien, no less. Stan Friedman admits that he may be involved in that one, too!...

Edited September 20, 2006 by drew hempel

[skyeagle409]

A fascinating series of documents in the FBI files details Gasser's growing alarm about the possibility that the Green Fireballs were Soviet missiles of some kind.

The green fireballs are not indicative of Soviet missiles.

[skyeagle409]

name='drew hempel' date='Sep 20 2006, 02:44 AM' post='1357471']

No -- Redfern's work is just the easiest to read and the best documented.

Are you also implying that all of Nick Redfern's books are well-documented book, including his book, "Cosmic Crashes" where he claims that alien bodies were recovered?

NO THAT MIGHT CHALLENGE WHAT EVER SECRET KERNAL OF TRAUMA THEY HAVE THAT CAUSES THEM TO RUN TO SOME STUPID ALIEN CULT!!

Another reason of a few as to why Nick Redfern's book, "Bodysnatchers" is off the mark is because he wasn't familiar with the NB-36N nor the dates of its operation. Note the insignia on the vertical stabilizer and the leaded cockpit windows, which were 12 inches thick.

http://www.cowtown.net/proweb/nb36h.htm

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher2/b36_14.html

Apparently, Nick Redfern had missed the mark on other things in regards to the Roswell incident.

Edited September 20, 2006 by skyeagle409

[contactismade]

all that and thats what you reply too?

[skyeagle409]

name='drew hempel' date='Sep 20 2006, 02:11 AM' post='1357436']

So you're a tool of obfuscation. You don't know what you're talking about!!

I know EXACTLY what I am talking about. Simple common sense logic says that if the military were unaware of any crash, then what crashed had nothing to do with the military. The debris was not what witnesses had described and besides, Nick Redfern also was unaware that secret aircrart test flights were also carried out at Muroc AFB, California, not at Roswell AAF, which is another fact that Nick Redfern seemed to have overlooked. Besides his book, "Cosmic Crashes," here's another one of Nick's works.

A COVERT AGENDA:

THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT'S UFO TOP SECRETS EXPOSED

By NICK REDFERN

Introduction by Nick Pope

Once Classified, Now Published

"The British government didn't want you to read the contents of Nick Redfern's A Covert Agenda."

"Redfern discovered that the British government has been tracking UFOs since 1947. The Ministry of Defence has documented and investigated hundreds of Royal Air Force, police, and public encounters with UFOs. But it has never acknowledged these activities and has deliberately prevented its citizens from discovering these UFO encounters. But according to Redfern, this conspiracy of silence is cracking."

"After decades of cover-up the truth can finally be told: UFOs are real and the British government knows it."

Edited September 20, 2006 by skyeagle409

[lacotta]

The interesting fact is that sceptics are the biggest hoaxers, when we are talking about UFO's.

Their explanations about certain UFO events are more incredible that the event itself.

Why you are trying so hard to descredit Disclosure Project? Find some proof instead spinning all over!

In reality the sceptic community is debunking itself.

Check the Opinion Poll: Article

Something to emphasize: I do believe that there is a massive attempt to missinform the public on UFOs. I do not believe in alien abductions(these are ufo nuts); the most reports are common mistakes or deliberate hoaxes. The fact is that in 30% of cases UFOs turned to be real. The guys of the Disclosure Project are really trying to help!

The Case Against Debunkers:article2

Edited September 22, 2006 by lacotta

[contactismade]

Skeptics have the easiest defensible position so they are smug, their whole schtick is putting the onus on believers to prove THEIR theories. And they scoff when you turn the tables, their facts(which are actually facts provided by other more intellegent people and not their work at all, the whole standing on the shoulders of geniuses and calling yourself one) require no work or discipline and require taking things from one side instead of all sides like any good thinker would. When you have such a limited focus you are bound to miss one or two things.

[lacotta]

In the past has been proven that UFO's are real(1949). Tha fact that UFO's are classified top secret has been established since 1970. Most of the documents are half blacked out when we dealing with UFO subject. There are multiple government agencies whos work is to debunk the truth that has been leaking all over the place since 1941. There are statements from Generals, Presidents, Scientists,.that we do not have vehicles like UFO's(denieing classified projects?)..on the subject to take it seriously. The ET artifacts has been retrived, and in some cases we got the documents to support this. NASA has been filming UFOs since the first flight in space. And the proof is regarded as a matter of national security - Brookings institute's report issue(1961). and on and on...

There are hundreds of reports every single day all over the planet. We must deal with what we already consider physical proof. IMO, you can't capture an Alien craft like you are taking down one of ours! If we want to prove something, we should make contact!!!

Ihope you'll understand my english!

Watch those documentaries, and decide: documentaries

Edited September 22, 2006 by lacotta

[The Skeptic Eric Raven]

In the past has been proven that UFO's are real(1949). Tha fact that UFO's are classified top secret has been established since 1970. Most of the documents are half blacked out when we dealing with UFO subject. There are multiple government agencies whos work is to debunk the truth that has been leaking all over the place since 1941. There are statements from Generals, Presidents, Scientists,...on the subject to take it seriously. The ET artifacts has been retrived, and in some cases we got the documents to support this. NASA has been filming UFOs since the first flight in space. And the proof is regarded as a matter of national security - Brookings institute's report issue(1961). and on and on...

There are hundreds of reports every single day all over the planet. We must deal with what we already have. IMO, you can't capture an Alien craft like you are taking down one of ours!

Ihope you'll understand my english!

Watch those documentaries, and decide: documentaries

None of that is proven. That is your wishful thinking.

Skeptics do relish being smug.

[lacotta]

None of that is proven. That is your wishful thinking.

Skeptics do relish being smug.

Inform yourself!! we are not in the 70's anymore!

Sceptics are promoting myths instead of facts.

document 1: Brookings institute regarding extraterrestrial life in the universe

Ok, i will not post all of those documents; just watch this documentary: Out of the Blue

Edited September 22, 2006 by lacotta

[The Skeptic Eric Raven]

Inform yourself!! we are not in the 70's anymore!

I am informed and rational. Join the club. The water is fine.

[contactismade]

When else could you feel good but when smugness is involved?

Its just that sometimes I get the impression that some people only sit on that side of the fence to aggravate people. Like verbal cherry picking, its not hard to win any argument when you have the strongest position, but why is it so hard for any skeptic to be gracious. I concede when there is sound logic presented to me. But what gets the back up is people who have an easy score and are still classless enough to rub people's nose in it. Believers and skeptics both have a place at the table, they are both excellent foils for each other.

Edited September 22, 2006 by contactismade

[rapid7]

I do not believe in alien abductions(these are ufo nuts); the most reports are common mistakes or deliberate hoaxes.

Sigh....Skeptics.. and a Faith-based skeptic at that..

Give me a science-based skeptic anyday...come back all is forgiven.

I can live with improbable opposed to "NO way! abductees are all Nuts!"

[lacotta]

One side is trying to prove something that could benefit everyone(with some evidence), the other side is trying to debunk(just criticizing with NO evidence).

I decided to be one of the good guys!

Myths versus Facts: written down!!! rather interesting

article:Myth vs Fact

a snapshoot:

Myth: Airline pilots never see UFOs, so they must not be real...

Fact: There have been many cases of pilot sightings ever since the 1940s...

Myth: Very few people have really seen a UFO...

Fact: According to a Roper poll conducted in 2002 for the SciFi channel, one in seven Americans say they or someone they know has had an experience involving a UFO...

.....

Edited September 22, 2006 by lacotta

[The Skeptic Eric Raven]

One side is trying to prove something that could benefit everyone(with some evidence), the other side is trying to debunk(just criticizing with NO evidence).

I decided to be one of the good guys!

What you have is not scientifically proven evidence. Until we have true scientific proof. Then ET is just speculation.

[drew hempel]

What you have is not scientifically proven evidence. Until we have true scientific proof. Then ET is just speculation.

Meanwhile the books PROVING that secret Nazi spacecraft technology was passed onto the Brits, Soviets and Yanks keep rolling in.

I just read Joseph Farrell's new book -- he only references Nick Redfern up to 1999 (so he excludes Redfern's latest two books) but Farrell doesn't need them!

Farrell PROVES that the Nazis had developed a mercury, plasma vortex engine based on Schauberger's principles and the Mossbauer Effect. Farrell relies on newly published books in Germany and Poland.

This is a very well-written book: http://www.amazon.com/SS-Brotherhood-Bell-...TF8&s=books

Edited September 22, 2006 by drew hempel

[The Skeptic Eric Raven]

Meanwhile the books PROVING that secret Nazi spacecraft technology was passed onto the Brits, Soviets and Yanks keeps rolling in.

I just read Joseph Farrell's new book -- he only references Nick Redfern up to 1999 (so he excludes Redfern's latest two books) but Farrell doesn't need them!

Farrell PROVES that the Nazis had developed a mercury, plasma vortex engine based on Schauberger's principles and the Mossbauer Effect. Farrell relies on newly published books in Germany and Poland.

This is a very well-written book: http://www.amazon.com/SS-Brotherhood-Bell-...TF8&s=books

Don't normally agree with you on anything.lol

But, I saw a documentry on Nazi spacecraft technology. Specifically about those engines and saucer shape craft. It makes some sense.