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Debunking the Disclosure Project

drew hempel

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Nothing conclusive, well not on the net that's for sure.

Maybe I should google, find a website and believe every word er simply because it's on the internet and agrees with my personal biased opinion...?

Or maybe er I don't know, do some real research and meet people face to face, one on one?

Yep.. this sounds better.

As I've stated -- I have a history of successul research that instituted a $1.5 million divestment from Total Oil for their slave labor and that got the U of Minnesota to join the Workers Rights Consortium.

The documents and articles and MEETING NOTES are all online!

Please let's stay on topic.

You can either read stuff online or read books and discuss in person, etc.

But if the documents exist then if you want to explain the mystery the evidence needs to be considered if it's pertinent to the issue at hand.

That's how any trial works, at scientific experiment, etc.


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But, does Nick Redfern believe that some UFOs are ET flying vehicles visiting Earth?

This is from an old book that PROVES THE CIA HAS BEEN SPREADING THE LIE THAT UFOS ARE ALIENS FROM OUTERSPACE. Maybe you should read it!!


Excerpts from "Messengers of Deception" - © 1979 Jacques Vallee,

And/Or Press, Berkeley CA 94702, ISBN: 0-915904-38-1.


[...] Scientific analysis will undoubtedly provide part of the

truth about UFOs; however, I no longer believe it will lead to the

whole truth. I owe this realization to a man I shall call "Major

Murphy," although his actual rank is much higher than that of Major.

He taught me a lesson I am not likely to forget.

Major Murphy, who retired from a U.S. Intelligence service quite

a few years ago, had seen action in World War II in Italy, and also

described vividly his investigations in the Caribbean, where he

organized efforts to intercept submarines and German spies on their

way to the United States. I met him at a gathering of UFO

contactees and suggested a drink when it was over. I expressed my

surprise at his interest in the event, which I had regarded as a

complete waste of time. He asked me to clarify this judgement, and

I said that in my opinion none of the people in attendance knew

anything about science. Then he posed a question that, obvious as

it seems, had not really occurred to me: "What makes you think that

UFOs are a scientific problem?"

I replied with something to the effect that a problem was only

scientific in the way it was approached, but he would have none of

that, and he began lecturing me. First, he said, science had

certain rules. For example, it has to assume that the phenomenon it

is observing is natural in origin rather than artificial and

possibly biased. Now, the UFO phenomenon could be controlled by

alien beings. "If it is," added the Major, "then the study of it

doesn't belong in science. It belongs in Intelligence." MEANING

COUNTERESPIONAGE. And that, he pointed out, was his domain.

"Now, in the field of counterespionage, the rules are

completely different." He drew a simple diagram in my notebook.

"You are a scientist. In science there is no concept of the 'price'

of information. Suppose I gave you 95 per cent of the data

concerning a phenomenon. You're happy because you know 95 per cent

of the phenomenon. Not so in Intelligence. If I get 95 per cent of

the data, I know this is the 'cheap' part of the information. I

still need the other 5 per cent, but I will have to pay a much

higher price to get it. You see, Hitler had 95 per cent of the

information about the landing in Normandy. But he had the WRONG 95


"Are you saying that the UFO data we use to compile statistics

and to find patterns with computers are useless?" I asked. "Might we

be spinning our magnetic tapes endlessly discovering spurious laws?"

"It all depends on how the team on the OTHER SIDE thinks. If

they know what they're doing, there will be so many cutouts between

you and them that you won't have the slightest chance of tracing

your way to the truth. Not by following up sightings and throwing

them into a computer. They will keep feeding you the information

they want you to process. What is the only source of data about the

UFO phenomenon? It is the UFOs themselves!"

Some things were beginning to make a lot of sense. "If you're

right, what can I do? It seems that research on the phenomenon is

hopeless, then. I might as well dump my computer into a river."

"Not necessarily, but you should try a different approach.

First you should work entirely outside of the organized UFO groups;

they are infiltrated by the same official agencies they are trying

to influence, and they propagate any rumor anyone wants to have

circulated. In Intelligence circles, people like that are

historical necessities. We call them 'useful idiots.' When you've

worked long enough for Uncle Sam, you know he is involved in a lot

of strange things. The data these groups get are biased at the

source, but they play a useful role.

"Second, you should look for the irrational, the bizarre, the

elements that do not fit: that's what I have come to observe at

this meeting tonight. Have you ever felt that you were getting

close to something that didn't seem to fit any rational pattern, yet

gave you a strong impression that it was significant?"

[... Deleted: Vallee's discussion of the immortality-claming group

"Human Individual Metamorphosis," the strange life of Jacques

Bordas, and the mysterious Order of Melchizedek...]


# Origin: The Alien Biker Kat, ZOOMing..! (1:202/1010)


(To) : ALL


Conf. : 0021 - Fidonet_UFO


Excerpts from "Messengers of Deception" - © 1979 Jacques Vallee,

And/Or Press, Berkeley CA 94702, IBN: 0-915904-38-1.


The absurdity of many UFO stories and of many religious visions

is not a superficial logical mistake. It may be the key to their

function. According to Major Murphy, the confusion in the UFO

mystery may have been put there deliberately to achieve certain

results. One of these results has been to keep scientists away.

The other is to create the conditions for a new form of social

control, a change in Man's perception of his place in the universe.

Are his theories fantastic? Before we decide, let us review a few

other facts. We need to examine more closely the political


Paris Flammonde, in his well-documented "Age of Flying

Saucers," remarked that "a great many of the contactees purvey

philosophies which are tinged, if not tainted, with totalitarian


A catalogue of contactee themes, compiled from interviews I

have conducted, includes the following.

INTELLECTUAL ABDICATION. The widespread belief that human

beings are incapable of solving their own problems, and that

extraterrestrial intervention is imperative to save us "in spite of

ourselves." The danger in such a philosophy is that it makes its

believers dependent on outside forces and discourages personal

responsibility: why should we worry about the problems around us, if

the Gods from Outer Space are about to solve them?

RACIST PHILOSOPHY. The pernicious suggestion that some of us

on the Earth are of extraterrestrial descent and therefore

constitute a "higher race." The dangers inherent in this belief

should be obvious to anybody who hasn't forgotten the genocides of

World War II, executed on the premise that some races were somehow

"purer" or better than others. (Let us note in passing that

Adamski's Venusian, the Stranger of the Canigou seen by Bordas, and

many other alleged extraterrstrials were all tall Aryan types with

long blond hair.)

TECHNICAL IMPOTENCE. The statement that the birth of civilization

on this planet resulted not from the genius and ability of mankind,

but from repeated assistance by higher beings. Archaeologists and

anthropologists are constantly aware of the marvelous skill with which

the "Ancient Engineers" (to use L. Sprague de Camp's phrase)

developed the tools of civilization on all continuts. No appear to

superior powers is necessary to explain the achievements of early

culture. The belief expressed by the contactees reveals a tragic

lack of trust on their part in human ability.

SOCIAL UTOPIA. Fantastic economic theories, including the

belief that a "world economy" can be created overnight, and that

democracy should be aboloished in favor of utopian systems, usually

dictatorial in their outlook.

Such ideas are present, in one form or another, in the

statements of organized UFO cults and sects that are described here,

and they deserve to be examined in some detail.


# Origin: The Alien Biker Kat, ZOOMing..! (1:202/1010)

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Funny how you can even say greer's veiws are outlandish yet you come in here with no physical evidence, not even a single document only promotion of books yay. And sorry i do know what google is, but it is not the basis of every fact on earth, infact if anything you are being lied to and decieved far more using google then you would to just go talk in person. Yet again you seem to only have promotion up your sleeves, do you know nick redfern in person? i believe you do because every single statement you have is backed up with a book which also doesnt have factual evidence contained unless you can prove otherwise by scanning in some of these classified documents and such.

And i hate to say its almost obvious why you been arrested so many times lol. Maybe one day you will realize everything at your hands is not always the truth, and you dont need a degree to say you do :)

Yes you actually only seem to claim that Nick Redfern is the only one who exposes the truth. So for you to believe everything you read in that book or story as we may call it, and then come on here telling people who have a different theory/opinion, you jump to the gun saying they have to read a certain book in order to know the truth.

Why isen't this book just online , why do you have to pay to know the truth? Funny cause i sure am not gonna pay 20$ to read 400 pages of a book that will only expand my "Imagination"

Until the time where its not words and physical evidence then ill believe all these claims, but they sound a hell of alot more outlandish , and long as an entire book just to explain one sentance, then even the ones saying they got abducted and brought to planet Zorklon. Oo

To sum it up your entire basis of evidence relies on "sources/drawings/and beliefs. In all of this i don't see how you even come up with any conclusion that it actually did happen to fly, and how well it flew. For you to claim that a drawing is even evidence that this happend, and a source telling you it did, is far more radical of a claim then anything else brought forth here. You say that the entire disclosure project is made up of people who are either Disinfo agents ( :w00t: MIB) or nieve. I think you should go look further into your sources of information because quite frankly your reading books that are imaginations brought forward by people who have too much time on their hands so they write a book on it. (my opinion)

1) There is a well documented history of the CIA promoting the alien invasion as disinformation and Greer is promoting the same CIA disinformation message. Coincidence? Maybe.

2) There is well documented evidence of the "alien" technology and "humanoids" witnessed in these top-secret projects that have existed since WWII -- now unveiled in the Disclosure Project. In otherwords this technology is well-documented to come from top secret military projects -- NOT ALIENS.

3) None of the evidence provided by the witnesses goes beyond the two explanations. Many of the witnesses come from CIA disinformation sources. Greer himself already has a shady history regarding his UFO research, as does Carol Riser and the lawyer for DP -- Daniel Sheehan.

4) You refuse to consider the evidence about the CIA disinformation program promoting an alien invasion and you refuse to consider the evidence about top-secret technology that makes the technology described in the Disclosure Project.

5) Read http://tricksterbook.com and read "Messengers of Deception" (1979) by Dr. Jacque Vallee and read Nick Redfern's books and read Curt Sutherly's book "UFO Mysteries" -- all give details on CIA disinfo promotion of the Alien Invasion and on the technology that is displayed in the Disclosure Project. Those are not the only sources but they will do.

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But, does Nick Redfern believe that some UFOs are ET flying vehicles visiting Earth?

Believe this:

Brain Port Tongue Vision In Use By Navy SEALs

Soldiers have a lot of information to process; Army Rangers could use 360-degree vision, and Navy SEALs could use sonar vision under water. The BrainPort can give it to them - through their tongues.

(Brain Port tongue vision system test by Dr. Anil Raj)

The Brain Port is a set of 144 microelectrodes that transmit information to the brain via the nerve fibers in the tongue. A narrow strip of red plastic connects a sonar device (or other source of live data) to the tongue of the user.

Veteran Navy Diver Michael Zinszer used it to sense compass direction and depth while in a swimming pool. He said it felt like having Pop Rocks candies on his tongue.

"You are feeling the outline of this image," he said. "I was in the pool, they were directing me to a very small object and I was able to locate everything very easily."

The device was pioneered more than thirty years ago by a University of Wisconsin neuroscientist, Dr. Paul Bach-y-Rita.

Right about now you might be thinking that the idea of being able to see with your tongue is too bizarre even for the world of science fiction. If so, you are wrong.

In the 1984 cult classic film The Adventures of Buckaroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension, Italian physicist Dr. Emilio Lizardo uses a tongue interface. In the film (take a deep breath here), Dr. Lizardo, in a failed attempt to create an oscillation overthruster, has his mind taken over by Lord John Whorfin, leader of the Red Lectroids, from another dimension. While imprisoned in an insane asylum, Whorfin/Lizardo constructs a device that lets him see into the past, clamping it carefully on to his tongue.

(Dr. Lizardo/Lord John Whorfin (John Lithgow) prepares his device)

I'm not going to claim this one as an sf prediction, because the purpose of the tongue clamp is not very well specified. However, this item leaves me up in the air on that whole "which is stranger - truth or fiction?" question.

Read more at Scientists Probe the Use of the Tongue.

(Story submitted 4/24/2006)

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A list of UFO movement/cult CIA-psy-op agents.


* Commercial and military pilots, worldwide

* Air Traffic Controllers, worldwide

* Many police officials, worldwide

* Astronauts and cosmonauts

* Many scientist and engineers

* Many government officials, worldwide

* Former American presidents

* Senior and mid-level military officers

* Military enlisted personnel, worldwide

* Millions of other CIA agents (men, women and children) worldwide

* Ancient CIA agents from over the centuries

* Other CIA agents from foreign intelligence agencies.

And, the list of CIA psy-op agents continue to grow with each passing year.


Flying Saucers You Have Swallowed

A Short History of UFO Hoaxing

© 1995 By Gregory Bishop

"You cannot depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus"--Mark Twain

No one likes to be the butt of a joke. To protect ourselves from embarrassment, some may never admit that they have been fooled, even if evidence to the contrary is presented afterwards. The wacky world of ufology has always been a fertile field for hoaxers and charlatans of every persuasion. While most four-color glossy tabloids screaming from the newsstand tout the latest photo, sighting, or revelation of conspiracy, none of them (save possibly Fortean Times) seem ready to deal with the shady art of the hoaxer, exposing our vulnerability to suggestion.

When British geezers Doug Bower and Dave Chorley confessed that they (among others) had created many, if not all of the crop circles in Southern England, there were two reactions. By far the most popular one was the "Oh, we knew it all along" school. This was the view perpetrated by the press with the usual tongue-in-cheek attitude. For the rest of us, immediate denial took hold. "How could they have done all of those things?" Both of these views spring from the same basic need: "THEY CAN'T FOOL ME!" A look at the history of UFO hoaxing can be considered an exercise in caution and the eagerness to grab on to the first thing that attracts, or turning on the filters before a situation is completely understood. Anyone can look stupid when fooled by an everyday office prank, but this is as nothing compared to the world-class jackass status achieved by vocal support of cream-of-the-crop saucer events that turn sour.

The "golden age" of ufology (at least in the publishing world) latched on to many of the earliest airship stories of the late 19th century to try and prove the durability of the phenomenon. Without exception, the authors of the 1950s, and '60s took the newspaper accounts at face value, never bothering to cross-check the stories. Par for the course was the story of the "Great Kansas Cownapping."

The Yates Center Farmer's Advocate of April 23, 1897 reported on patriotically-named Alexander Hamilton, and his story of an airship which had 'napped one of his prize heifers. A respected farmer, Hamilton was not one to just make things up. His story, however, seems almost prophetic, given modern accounts of anomalous livestock tampering:

Last Monday night at about 10:30 we were wakened by a noise among the cattle. I arose thinking that perhaps my bulldog was performing pranks, but upon going to the door saw to my utter astonishment that an airship was slowly descending upon my cow lot, about 40 rods [600 feet] from the house... It consisted of a great cigar-shaped portion, possibly three hundred feet long, with a carriage underneath. The carriage was made of glass or some other transparent substance alternating with a narrow strip of some material. It was brightly lighted within and everything was plainly visible--it was occupied by six of the strangest beings I ever saw. They were jabbering together, but we could not understand a word they said. Every part of the vessel which was not transparent was of a dark reddish color. We stood mute with wonder and fright. Then some noise attracted their attention and they turned a light directly upon us. Immediately on catching sight of us they turned on some unknown power, and a great turbine wheel, about thirty feet in diameter, which was revolving slowly below the craft, began to buzz and the vessel rose as lightly as a bird. When about three hundred feet above us it seemed to pause and hover directly above a two-year-old heifer which was bawling and jumping, apparently fast in the fence. Going to her, we found some material fastened in a slip knot around her neck and going up to the vessel...We tried to get it off but could not, so we cut the [fence] wire loose to see the ship, heifer and all, rise slowly, disappearing in the northwest.

Hamilton then related that the cow's hide was found later in another field, with only his brand to identify its dried hulk, and no tracks left in the soft ground around it. The statement was followed by a sworn affidavit by 12 prominent members of the community, from bankers and judges to the town postmaster. No less an illustrious figure than Jacques Valée championed the case, citing it as one the earliest examples of a solid UFO report. The validity of the story was never checked with anyone in Yates Center until Jerome Clark, acting on a tip from Bob Rickard of Fortean Times actually took the amazing step of writing to the paper that published the original story. Ninety three-year-old Ethel Shaw wrote back, describing how as a 14-year-old girl, she had been in the Hamilton home when Alexander came in and declared to his wife, "Ma, I fixed up quite a story and told the boys in town and it will come out in the Advocate this weekend." Mrs. Shaw also revealed that the affidavit signers were all members of the local liars club, who used to try to top each others' tall tales. The group broke up soon after Hamilton's prank, which is not surprising considering the way in which the cownapping legend took hold. The account was reprinted with embellishments and artists' conceptions in countries as far away as France.

Another early story which most every wide-eyed hopeful ufologist has read concerns the little Texas town of Aurora and the strange permanent inhabitant of the local cemetery, said to be the victim of a crashed airship. The Firesign Theatre wove this event into the storyline of their 1974 album Everything You Know Is Wrong. "Not from around here, but a real square little fellow" read the epitaph on the alien's gravestone. The actual events surrounding the story are much stranger than even these formidable talents could make them.

Early on the morning of June 14, 1973, someone sneaked into the cemetery and stole the tombstone, which bore a crudely carved outline of a flying saucer on it. The jokesters, hoaxters, or shadowy sinister meddlers then poked "long, slender, pointed saw-toothed metal probes" into the ground to remove whatever they could from underneath the site. The perpetrators, according to one investigator, "knew what they were after and also must have tried to get specimen remains of the occupant's body, clothing, or something to identify him by. The whole grave robbery was handled in a thoroughly professional manner." It may be speculated that one of our favorite shadow groups who really run the government wanted the prize for their own, but thereafter MUFON and NICAP descended upon the story like kids after free candy. Both unequivocally supported the spaceman stories. Walt Andrus, then and present director of MUFON, fought tooth and nail with the Aurora Cemetery Association for the rights to exhume and examine the remaining remains. He never got them to relent. Eventually, guards had to be posted at night due to souvenir hunters. Jim and Coral Lorenzen of the Aerial Phenomena Research Organization suddenly became skeptical about Aurora, even after supporting other more wild tales from around the globe. Perhaps they simply wanted to disagree with Andrus and the NICAP cronies for the sake of showing them up, but they were to be vindicated (in a roundabout way) on this occasion.

The only source for the original story was published in the Dallas Morning News of April 19, 1897. The reporter, F.E. Hayden described the scene in Aurora's town square at 6:00 AM of that fateful day. An airship, obviously experiencing some sort of breakdown, came sailing toward the town:

...it was making a speed of only ten or twelve miles an hour, and gradually settling toward earth. It sailed over the public square and when it reached the north part of town [it] collided with the tower of Judge Proctor's windmill and went to pieces with a terrific explosion, scattering debris over several acres of ground...The pilot of the ship is supposed to have been the only one aboard, and while his remains are badly disfigured, enough of the original has been picked up to show that he was not an inhabitant of this world...Papers found on his person--evidently the records of his travels--are written in some unknown hieroglyphics, and cannot be deciphered. The ship was too badly wrecked to form any conclusion as to its construction or motive power. It was built of an unknown metal, resembling somewhat a mixture of aluminum and silver, and must have weighed several tons...

Some observant readers may catch themes in this story which were to haunt crashed saucer accounts for many decades to come--the strange writing, unknown metal, wreckage strewn "over acres"--these are familiar details from Roswell, Aztec, Corona, and others. Perhaps this is coincidence, perhaps precognition a' la Jules Verne and H.G. Wells. In any case, J. Allen Hynek was interested enough (and believed in the story) to send his Texas friend Donald Hanlon 'round to investigate. He located one Oscar Lowery, who had been eleven years old when the crash occurred. Lowery ventured the opinion that the story had been completely made up by Hayden in order to put Aurora back on the map, since it had been wiped from it by the decision to run the railroad tracks further north, thus effectively cutting off the town from its manifest destiny. He went on to say that Judge Proctor never owned a windmill, and that a lot of people had known the story was a lie because Hayden had talked about it. Later investigations of the crash site with metal detectors and shovels failed to turn up anything more interesting than a few old license plates, stove lids, and the like. (This occurred years before the later squabbles between the ufological factions, and one wonders why this account and others like it were ignored, although it may not be hard to guess.)

One may also wonder why if the spaceman's body was "badly disfigured" in the fiery crash, how any papers found "on his person" could have survived very intact. There are so many questions raised by this event it is hard to believe it wasn't cooked up by F.E. Hayden just as the cownapping tale was: in order to get away with a colossal joke (and in this case maybe bring a few gullible people with money to the struggling and shrinking community.) It worked, but was almost 70 years too late. While other airship accounts are not so easily torn apart, it is important to remember that all experience that is not personal has gone through at least one filter. It is fortunate that a few of the original residents were still alive to contest the story.

Moving us into the glorious age of the contactees is a man named Karl Mekis, who in 1959 announced himself as "Venus Security Commissar On Earth", and sold "survival kits" and jobs for the faithful in the post-take over "World Republic Of Venus." He and a partner had accumulated a fortune in excess of $300,000 before he was caught and ordered to stand trial in an Austrian court.

Mekis was a retired Nazi SS guard who, on a boat on his way to South America met another WWII fugitive, Frank Weber-Richter. The two cooked up a scheme to scare and bilk the public and line their own pockets with space-invasion gold. Setting up their office in Santaigo, Chile, they started buying ads in popular European science-fiction magazines announcing the imminent invasion of Earth by Venusian forces. One of the ads read: "Only a handful of Earth people will be picked to rule with the Venus Masters after the invasion. And you can be one of them--if you act now." Others offered protection for less cash: "World Republic Of Venus. Chauffeur wanted to serve top official of Venus after invasion of Earth."

Showcasing their acquired talents for propaganda, Mekis and Weber-Richter also offered marriage to Venus men for Earth women to build a new "master race." The Venusians were said to be properly white and able to speak in a "clear, intelligent tongue." People sent in their life savings in order to be among the saved on "Day X." (HEY! What's going on here, Ivan Stang?) Their wealth brought them to the attention of the Chilean police, and the two were forced to flee to Italy. After many postponements and delays, they were finally cornered in Austria and Mekis was sent to trial, but his partner escaped. Witnesses described their fear and reactions to the ever escalating stories pouring out of Mekis' offices. One man received a letter warning: "PLANNED INVASION DELAYED. NEED FINANCIAL SUPPORT. PLEASE SEND ALL YOU CAN" and sent in his last $1,100. Other witnesses presented their passports announcing them as official citizens of Venus. Mekis was convicted on seventeen counts of fraud and swindling and sentenced to five years in a cushy Austrian jail.

Here's a note I left at the end of the article which never made it to print, but rediscovering it was a delight:

If we can't overcome the ingrained games, (emotional and intellectual) that we are encouraged and forced to play when confronted with strange and anomalous information, whatever we can learn from studying this subject will be lost on us.

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Wikipedia can't be trusted -- it's just whoever wants to submit stuff! There's no sources even mentioned.

That Wikipedia entry is WRONG -- it states 500 scientists. I told you 1,200 and here's my source:

Here this book proves that the U.S. hired some 1,200 Nazis as just scientists!!

Science, Technology, and Reparations: Exploitation and Plunder in Postwar Germany (Hardcover)

by John Gimbel

Hardcover: 280 pages

Publisher: Stanford University Press (April 1990)

Now Professor Christopher Simpson who did most of the research on this stuff can not even get his books reviewed -- too radical!

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Actually, I have been aware of the CIA's disinfomation campaign for a length of time, especially on UFOs and you can back-track to the Robertson Panel's recommendations in 1953 and get the rest of the story. I also remember the CIA's Glomar Explorer and its cover story for that ship, and to make a point, its cover story regarding that ship was no more dissimilar than its cover stories on UFOs and I would like for you to examine the CIA's cover story concerning UFOs of the 1950's that it sought to explain away as the U-2, which was false. The U-2 was explained away not as a UFO as the CIA falsely claimed, but as a high altitude weather aircraft.

The first time I read that story about the CIA's claim on the U-2, I knew that it was false but there were those who never knew the rest of the story so they basically took the CIA's explanation as law.


Project Beta and Underground Bases

An Interview With Greg Bishop

Dateline: Tuesday, July 12, 2005


By: Phenomena News Editor

Phenomena News Editor, Stuart Miller, talks to Project Beta author Greg Bishop about how many of the cornerstones upon which today's ufological lore are built had their origins in the fertile minds of military intelligence and the behind-the-scenes spook-brigade.

SM: In our prior email correspondence, you commented about a slightly negative review of the book that had appeared on Amazon.

GB: The guy gave it five stars but he said he didn’t know if any of it was true and that the premise of the book was that everything about UFOs was made up by the government. He either didn’t read the book or he read it with a preconception that he kept.

SM: I’ll tell you something. When Nick (Redfern) launched the book publicly, Nick’s emails everywhere were the first I think that most people knew about the book……….

GB: Oh really? God, I have even more to thank him for than I thought I did. I just saw a couple of the reviews he put up. They were really positive and I was very happy about it.

SM: Oh he did, he reached out and really pushed very hard and got others to get behind it too. Let’s put it this way, I don’t think the UFO community could not have known the book was coming out. But the point I wanted to make was, to an extent, Nick’s email gave that same impression. Maybe that guy read it and just absorbed it and went into the book with that attitude. Nick had certainly convinced me, before I’d started to read the book, that all of ufology was a myth and it was a very pleasant surprise to open the book to realise that that’s not what you’re saying.

GB: I’m saying that a great deal of the wackier elements of ufology, especially the stuff that happened about underground bases, exchange of technology and that aliens seeded the planet with religious leaders, all that’s either been made up or capitalised on by the Intelligence agencies. It’s hard to get that across to someone who has no grounding whatsoever in the field, and that’s the kind of people who want to buy the book so it has to have some kind of point, and you can’t have these grey areas where people get disinterested or confused.

SM: But the difficulty with this stuff is, well for example, a letter would have been sent to Bennewitz and within that letter, there would be a large element of disinformation and made up crap and so on, but there would also be elements of truth and the trick is to identify those elements that are true. I can’t remember the name of the air force officer who wrote a particular letter to Bennewitz, it’s the one where he goes on about the four rolls of film, but then he goes on about Roswell. Now if you weren’t reading that within this book and knowing that a substantial part of it was a load of bunk, it’s very compelling. It’s the sort of thing you not only want to read but also to believe.

GB: Yeah, exactly. I think they tapped into that “want to believe” vein very well and the main reason was to keep people away from sensitive air force projects and the secondary reason was to find out who was interested, why, and what they think. And the third reason, which not many people talk about but which I think makes a lot of sense is that they got off on it. They thought it was kind of funny.

SM: What, just basically yanking people’s chains?

GB: Any job you do there are boring parts and standard parts, and these are government people. They were actually leading these people on a wild goose chase and that is the point of counter intelligence, to lead people away from what they didn’t want them to see. Well, they did that and they also capitalised on these stories. Rick Doty grilled Bill Moore on different aspects of the UFO phenomenon – its history, different cases etc and then capitalised on those when talking to other people. Like for instance Linda Howe; I mentioned that little episode in the book too.

SM: Just for the record, could you specifically identify commonly held beliefs within ufology that, as a result of your research, are clearly bunkum. The first thing that comes to mind is Dulce, so presumably there is no underground base at Dulce?

GB: I’m pretty certain there isn’t a base there. There was something placed there to make him think so though.

SM: Oh, the vehicles and shafts.

GB: He (Bennewitz) got the idea there was something there from the episode with Myrna Hansen. I don’t know if I made that clear because it wasn’t clear to me where he got the idea that there was a base at Dulce.

SM: Oh, you did make that clear, you did make the connection or the implied connection because I remember you saying that within her testimony that she said she was taken to an underground base.

GB: The funny thing was she was taken to an underground base, well she said she was, I have no idea, but the funny thing was, she described part of the Manzano nuclear weapons storage complex very accurately. There was no way she could have been there or known anything about it. She didn’t know anyone in the military as far as I know, and the air force was very disturbed about that. Dulce began with the idea that Bennewitz had that there was a base there and that the air force and the NSA to some extent were quite happy to let him believe that and encourage it because it took his attention away from Kirtland AFB.

So that’s one of the myths I suppose that has grown up. There are unexplained things about that. I can’t remember the man’s name but he came out in, I think the early 90s and said he’d been a guard at that base and he was going around lecturing about it. Then he surprise, surprise, died mysteriously of some fast acting disease or he killed himself, I can’t remember which, sometime in the mid 90s. That’s the only reference I’ve seen where somebody has said that they were actually there but I don’t know what his motivations were, what he thought or whether he was a crazy person and if anybody ever checked up on him.

The other thing they brought up with Paul was specifically in this letter from this guy, I think he was with the NSA but he was working with Lockheed at the time. He’s actually around and I know his name but I don’t want to give it out because I didn’t have his permission, I didn’t talk to him.

Some of the things he said in that letter, that there were two races, the Ebans and the Sweads, that’s the kind of stuff that’s taken directly from 1950s contactee mythology or whatever you want to call it. Whether there are Aryan white skinned space brothers coming and telling us that we’re destroying ourselves is still an open question to me. They capitalised on that and got him going on that and I believe some of these same people were also talking to John Lear, Bill Cooper and people like that after Bennewitz to keep that mythology going because it allowed them to keep track of how their rumours had spread, and like I said before, who was interested in it.

And if people are interested and come flocking to these stories, it was important to find out what their interest was because a lot of espionage is done under the guise of being an innocent UFO researcher. I’m not talking about American citizens at that time specifically. Soviet citizens actually.

SM: You did really surprise me with that revelation about those two sub contracted private detectives taken on by Citizens Against UFO Secrecy who did turn out to be Soviet agents. Because sat here 3,000 miles away, when you look back at the mid 80s, you don’t still expect America to have this “reds under the bed” syndrome.

GB: Yeah but it wasn’t. It was people hanging around military bases. There was a Chinese guy that they were worried about for a while who said he was a UFO researcher who mysteriously up and disappeared and went back to China in the late 80s or early 90s. But the reason they’re interested in these UFO researchers is because a lot of these sightings occur around military bases, a good deal of them, and when people are out there at specifically places like Area 51 and at the time Bennewitz at Kirtland, you’ve got a bunch of people sitting round saying they’re looking at UFOs when maybe two or three of them are not. And the air force and other people there are very interested in these people that are saying, “I’m just out here looking for UFOs and taking pictures”. And in the mean time they’re taking pictures of the base, taking pictures of things that fly in, trying to get into other areas saying they’re UFO researchers and what they are really interested in is espionage and that’s what the air force is mainly concerned about. That’s what got their interest.

If Bennewitz had just said they were UFOs, they would have just thrown him in the kook file like anybody else and we would never have heard of him. But he took it a step further and got very noisy about it.

Also, he was very smart and knew how to figure out some of these things. Apart from his blind spot about the UFO subject, he was looking at drawing attention to things that were in plain sight and other things that weren’t in plain sight and they didn’t want other countries to know about. And yes, they were concerned about the Soviets as they had the most interest and the most wherewithal and agents stationed in this country to do this kind of thing. We had agents in Russia too and that’s part of the story as well.

SM: Oh yes indeed and very adept ones according to the information in the book. But that’s another aspect. I wouldn’t say that you show an element of sympathy towards the Intelligence agencies but you do put them in a context whereby they are seen simply to be doing their job as opposed to vilifying them.

GB: I think they, specifically Richard Doty, went a little bit further than doing his duty because I think he got off on it but yeah, for the most part that’s their job. They think they’re doing the right thing and while I don’t agree with the fact that somebody had to be driven crazy and I think they could have done it a different way, they thought they were doing the right thing and weren’t doing anything wrong and the fact that one person had to go nuts and was getting more nuts as time went on didn’t concern them nearly so much as someone in Russia finding out what they were doing there. And even beyond that, as I mentioned, they had assets stationed in Russia and if they found out that somebody over here was getting codes for these satellites and sending them back to Russia, they would immediately have gone in and done a house cleaning and found out who the moles were and how the information was getting out. People have been deported, arrested, imprisoned or worse. And to them one person going crazy because of his UFO beliefs was far preferable to having an entire network of spies being brought down by just leaving him alone. That was their trade off. I can see their reasoning there but I’m not happy about what happened to Bennewitz and like I said, I think they could have done it in a different way.

SM: Well OK, how do you think they could have done it differently?

GB: Well…..(thinks)

SM: Couldn’t they just have sat him down and said, “Look, you aren’t listening to signals from UFOs and aliens. You are listening to highly sensitive black projects. Leave it alone.”

GB: Actually, you’ve answered the question for me because I haven’t really thought about that before. Yeah, exactly. He considered himself loyal, patriotic, etc. I think he was in the coastguard or something in World War 2, he actually enlisted, he wasn’t drafted and they could have appealed to his patriotism and said, “Look, you’re onto things you shouldn’t be on to. As a loyal citizen, could you please not worry about it? It doesn’t have anything to do with UFOs and we’d rather you didn’t mess with it.” I thought that was what they had done when I first started the book.

Project Beta Author Greg Bishop

© cfz.org.uk

The mistake, which you’ve pointed out here, was to decide that they could get more out of him, get more out of the project by letting him continue with his folly and finding out how he found out what he did so that they could prevent it from happening again. And to do that, they had to let him persist in these illusions to keep his interest and to keep him going in the direction he was and take it as far as he could so they could find out how far he could go and therefore how far any other reasonably intelligent electrical physicist could go. The decision was made to get more out of him by keeping him going then to just tell him to quit it and stop it because the Intelligence community, when they move, they make sure there is a multiple upside to what they’re doing. Instead of taking care of just one problem, they can take care of 5 or 6 or 8 problems if they can do it. They didn’t consider that he’d go crazy. When he did, I think some people were concerned but they were more concerned with keeping the secrets and getting the job done.

I don’t know that I agree with that methodology but a lot more lives have been saved by having spies running around preventing wars, I think, then everybody keeping secrets to themselves and having misunderstandings etc. It’s a funny way to talk for most people, especially the very lefty people I hang out with. I guess I consider myself the same but there are good reasons for a lot of this stuff and a lot of it prevents a lot of unnecessary conflict and bloodshed. That’s the point of it and that’s what they thought they were doing.

SM: What drew you to write the book? What attracted you to write up Paul Bennewitz’s life?

GB: It was one of 4 or 5 proposals I sent out and that was the one that Simon and Shuster wanted. The other main reason was that I had a personal connection because I have known Bill Moore since 1988 which is kind of late in the game, but it was the year before he made his announcement in Las Vegas that freaked everybody out and that really affected me because I was there at that conference. I was sitting at Bill’s table helping him sell books and things and he wouldn’t tell me what he was going to talk about. He said that it was really going to blow the lid open and make a lot of people mad but maybe a lot of people will have their eyes opened and we can do things differently.

So when the lecture was about to start, I walked in and took a seat about two thirds of the way up the front. Phil Klass was in the front row with a tape recorder and Bill started his lecture and a few minutes into it, people started yelling at him and interrupting him. I’ve never heard such a violent reaction to anything – politically or otherwise. I wondered why that was and why people were so mad that it began my interest. I knew Bill and as time went on, I asked him more and more questions about it. I thought this would be a story to cover as no one else was going to talk about it. Bill was in the middle of it, we were on friendly terms and I thought he’d tell me more than he might tell somebody else and that indeed was what happened.

SM: Tell us about that announcement.

GB: It wasn’t specifically about Bennewitz. He was part of it but the speech ran for about two and a half hours, it was a long talk.

SM: Good grief.

GB: Well, it would have run shorter but he kept getting interrupted. The State director kept having to get up and say, “Look, let Bill say what he has to say. He’s here to give a……” which was answered followed by shouts of things like, “Why should we? He’s full of crap.” The announcement was that many of the stories that had been circulating about underground bases, abductions in exchange for technology, alien intervention in human events throughout history, specifically those three things were mainly the product of a disinformation campaign and that Ufologists who were listening to government people who were thinking that they had an inside source and this was the real stuff, his warning was, you had better watch out because a lot of that stuff is not true and I know because I’ve been through it. At first they were confused because they thought he was one of them, and he was up to that time, and I think he still was.

Now suddenly a lot of the things they’d been told and a lot of the things they’d built their reputations on were in question. He said, ”I had the wherewithal to find out these things and you didn’t.” That’s a very bad thing to say to a Ufologist. Somebody that’s been working on something for a really long time, to say to them, “Hey, you that have been working on this for 10 years. Most of what you’re talking about and putting in your newsletters and saying at your lectures is based on false information.” That’s a really hard one to handle for anybody. They got very upset with him. I could see why they’d get upset but I couldn’t understand why they’d stay upset for so long. Now it’s been over 15 years since he gave that talk and his interest in ufology dropped off. Actually I’ve had him on my internet radio show about 3 times and I always get old line Ufologists listening in and commenting on it. Nobody says anything bad. It’s all kind of sunk in. It’s taken about 10 years to get this information to sink in and for people to realise there were a lot of things that were false. In fact a couple of them said, “Well, I knew that all along anyway” and these are the people that were yelling at him in the beginning.

SM: Another thing that the book has done for me is clarify Bill Moore for me because I’ve always been very confused about him up to now in terms of how he was seen. Sometimes when he was referred to, it would be in a negative sense. At other times it would be in a positive sense. Obviously, I was well aware of his long time connection with Stan Friedman. Stan has never said a bad word about him that I can find. But always there was this thing about, “Well he was involved in psyops (psychological operations,) he was involved with Bennewitz” and it’s been very confusing trying to justify him in terms of his place in ufology. But in terms of how far I’m into the book, the impression I get is that he was as much a victim as anybody else.

GB: But you know what? He was a willing victim. He agreed to be a victim.

SM: Well yes, but he had an enormous carrot dangled in front of him.

GB: Yes he did. Let me back up a little bit about Bill. It’s very hard for me to come in and condemn Bill because for one thing, I’ve seen what’s happened from that lecture on and what people have said and his attempts to explain himself and them not listening because most people, especially if you’re highly emotional about it are not going to be listening to what’s coming out of your mouth. Whatever you say is going to be interpreted the way you want to hear it when it comes into your consciousness. That happens with everyone. If you’ve ever been in a relationship then you know that!

The point with Bill is, and as this isn’t a radio interview so I can bring this up, I don’t know how much interest there is in the Academy Awards but remember that director who was given an award and who had given names to the Committee of Un American Activities and a lot of people were mad at him for that, Elia Kazan. They gave him a life time achievement award and half the people stood up and clapped and the other half sat. Warren Beatty, who tries to appear as one of the most left leaning people in Hollywood, got up and clapped and Ed Harris who was a little bit younger just sat there with this grim look on his face. The point with Beatty was, and he said this in the press when they asked him this, why he was the way he was with Kazan given his politics, and he said, “I knew him personally, he gave me my start, he was very kind to everybody I know and I have a hard time turning on him because of that. Or something to that effect.

And that’s how I feel about Bill. As far as I can tell, he’s always been very straight with me, as much as he could be, if he could tell me something he would, if he couldn’t he’d tell me why. And he would also tell me things he didn’t want to get out to the public but he thinks will help me in my search for whatever I’m looking for. If he can help me out, he’ll give me some titbits of information but occasionally I’m not supposed to spread them anywhere.

From that aspect I find it hard to pillory Bill and like you said, the fact that he had something dangled in front of him which any of those people that were yelling at him, I’m certain if they had gotten that deal, many of them would have done the same thing.

SM: The feeling I’ve had so far in terms of Moore’s relationship with Doty and AFOSI is that so far, it’s almost been all one way traffic. So far, Bill doesn’t seem to have got much back. Does he? (Editor’s note here; sometimes one asks stupid questions without thinking and this was probably the dumbest I’ve ever asked).

Did they show him the golden egg so to speak?

GB: I think they gave him the biggest hint they’d given anybody up to that point, through different documents. At first they gave him that fake one just to make sure he wasn’t the sort of person to go spouting anything. They wanted to make sure he was very careful about what he did and once he assured them of that, they said, “OK”. That Eisenhower briefing document, the famous MJ12 thing came out in 1986. Before that he had gotten bits and pieces, he’d received something called the Carter briefing document. He was led to a hotel in upstate New York after flying all over the country and given 30 minutes with these documents. They said he could do anything he wanted to do with them for half an hour and then they would take them away. All these little documents had hints about what had happened in the past, what records specifically the Air Force had on UFOs, what they thought about them, and some people associated with studying them.

Some of these documents might have been genuine, some might have been partially genuine, some might even have been completely fake but he knew at the beginning when he was given stuff, it would be his job to check it out. Nobody else was being given this access at the time and it went to about ’88 or ’89 when it finally trickled off. In that time, a lot, in fact maybe most of the documents we’ve come to know as the bedrock of FOIA government released information on UFOs were given to Bill Moore and Jamie Shandera. Jamie is in the background here but he played a very important role in all of this. He worked very closely with Bill. In fact the MJ12 documents were mailed to his house in 84 or 85 I think, which was not too long after Bill got involved.

So they did follow through on their promises but implied within that promise was that he had to find out what was true and what was not. “We’re not going to do it for you. We’ll give you hints.” Now if they were giving him hints about something that was actually true, he was never able to determine that, which was basically why he stopped. He said, “Look, I went as far as I could and I couldn’t find out for sure. And I got as far as anybody at that point.” He got his side of the deal except that they didn’t give out anymore than they wanted to or they had to.

SM: Does he regret his involvement with them now?

GB: No, not at all. The only thing he said that he regretted was that speech in Las Vegas and I think I say somewhere in there that he doesn’t think he would have been so arrogant about it at the time. And he was. He was a little self-righteous but I think the reason was because so many people were cutting him down and saying he was full of it and they weren’t going to listen to him, and all that. He got really mad at them and decided to answer them in this way; “OK, if you don’t think it’s real, I’ll tell you what’s been happening and you can tell me what you think of that.”

SM: Where in all this do the MJ 12 papers sit?

GB: In the Bennewitz story?

SM: In relation to Bill Moore.

GB: It fits in, in that it was part of the deal he had made. He kept tabs on people, reported on what they were thinking and their opinions and what they knew at the time, what kind of reports they were investigating and what rumours were making the rounds in the UFO field. In return he got documents and the block buster was the Eisenhower briefing document saying there was a group of 12 people convened by Harry Truman in 1947 to deal with the UFO subject. Bill now thinks that document is probably false or mostly false. At the time he had no idea. People said he championed the idea of it being true throughout the late 80s and through the 90s but he published a book called the MJ12 Documents where he discussed all the documents he was handed by the government and how authentic he thinks they are. Two or three of them out of the six or eight he thought were completely false, some he said were probably mostly disinformation and others he said probably were true as far as he could tell.

The people came out and said, “He brought out all this stuff and he said it was true and he was spreading disinformation”, well that isn’t true. If you look at the written record of what he said, he judged them each on their own merits and tried to figure out if something was real or not. As far as I can tell, he was really careful about it.

Another thing he did was to put out altered documents and people got mad at him about this too. He’d leave out certain things or change things and I asked him why he did that. I said, “Did the government tell you to do that?” and he said, “No. They just gave it to me and said do what you want with it. I did that because if somebody came back to me with a bit of information that I thought I could use, if they hadn’t picked up the false parts that I changed or guessed at the bits I’d taken out, I would use that in judging how accurate and how reliable their information was.” I think that’s legitimate, it doesn’t bother me. They said he was spreading disinformation. This is something he learned at this ad hoc spy school that the air force put him through. They actually trained him to be a low level spy. He did other things besides UFO things which I also point out in the book.

He says he never got paid for it. His only pay were these documents that he could do what he wanted with. For one thing, they were a very valuable information source for anybody looking into this kind of thing and for another it makes you feel like you’re kind of important. He’s not a prideful person, I’ve noticed that, but if you get his dander up, if you get him irritated with stupid questions or you don’t listen to him or argue or discuss something in an illogical manner, he doesn’t have very much patience. That’s just his personality. I respect him – I wish I could be that way. I’m too patient.

SM: What was, in the end, his opinion of Bennewitz? How did he feel about him?

GB: I don’t think they were ever any kind of close friends but according to people I talked to, and that Publishers Weekly Review took me to task for not getting more into people’s personalities and motivations, but the main character, Bennewitz, nobody except for his family and I guess other people I couldn’t talk to or knew about, knew what his personality was and what made him tick. What his basic demeanour was. Really, all they knew him from was from the UFO subject and since Bennewitz, at least at that time was quite obsessed with it to the exclusion of his own business and his family, that’s all they knew him by. I asked Bill about him too and he said he didn’t know much about him either except for visiting him on a few occasions to talk about this subject and to tell him a few things he could tell him to try and put the brakes on a little bit.

One thing he did say about Paul was that his filters weren’t very good. Anything that agreed with what his preconception was, he would accept without any hesitation and he would incorporate it into growing theory about what was going on. At the end, after the Air Force lost interest, Bill lost interest and didn’t hang out with him that much either.

Richard Doty actually hung out with him, he said, after all this and tried to be friends with him but his family, and particularly his son Matthew, didn’t want Doty to have anything to do with him. He blamed Doty for sending his father to a mental institution and making his health deteriorate. I don’t disagree with him. He was a family man. But the thing is, the family I think have a lot of contracts with the government and they don’t want to mess those up by suing them.

To the question of what Bill thinks of Paul, I think he only thought of him to the extent of how he dealt with the UFO subject and what his beliefs were, and what he was doing with that information. They hung out a little bit, they had lunch occasionally, he went to his house a few times, but it wasn’t like this ongoing, everyday thing. Bill lived in Arizona at the time which is about 300 or 400 miles away from Albuquerque so he didn’t see him that much.

Bill feels it could have been done better. He feels sorry for Bennewitz but he also knows what the stakes were. He had made an agreement and he had to stick to it which meant not telling Bennewitz why he was interested in him. He thought he was just the guy that had written the Roswell book and the Philadelphia Experiment and was a board member of APRO and to him this meant somebody who knew what they were talking about and was interested in what he was doing.

SM: You do, in the book and probably inadvertently, paint an extremely comical image of the intelligence agencies walking into Bennewitz’s house the moment he walked out. This ridiculous situation of even Doty being in there once and the orange orbs and Doty turns round and says, “Are those ours?” It’s almost like they were tripping over each other.

GB: The thing about the orbs was; who knows what they were? Bill saw them too. Doty either doesn’t know what they were or he isn’t telling. I talked to him for about almost 3 hours one time, on the phone sporadically here and there. but mostly in this interview in this restaurant. I think he’s an old intelligence guy – he doesn’t like talking on the phone, so we sat in this Denny’s out there in Grants, New Mexico and talked for a while. He was very nice, very polite and very forthcoming about a lot of stuff but he also fed me a lot of crap and I knew it too. Same thing he did with Bill and the point was, the only way I would put something in the book was if somebody else mentioned the same thing or if somehow, from another source, I got confirmation of what Doty had said. Two or three people say something then I included it as part of the story. If it were just Doty or just Bill, I would say that in the book. A couple of times I say, “Well the only person that told me this was so and so”.

One exception was the fact that Doty was on the base at Area 51. He told me that and how am I going to check that out? There isn’t really any way.

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Fact of the matter is, the Germans thought the "Foo Fighters" were our machines. Are these German "Foo Fighters"? Are they saucer-shaped?


But, I am very sure the craft could not fly at 7000 mph with simple jet engines nor conduct right-angled maneuvers at over 40 Gs.

That's because you refuse to read the FOIA documents, recently declassified, that are detail in Nick Redfern's work!

Sit your head in the sand and you can be very sure of lots of stuff! haha. What are you afraid of?

More Project Beta and Underground Bases

An Interview With Greg Bishop - Part Two

Dateline: Tuesday, July 12, 2005


By: Phenomena News Editor

Part Two of Stuart Miller's chat to Project Beta author Greg Bishop about how many of the cornerstones upon which today's ufological lore are built had their origins in the fertile minds of military intelligence and the behind-the-scenes spook-brigade continues...

SM: You’ve said there that all these intelligence agencies knew what they were doing but the impression in the book is that they didn’t. It sounds like a chaotic mess on Kirtland. The NSA were involved in projects on Kirtland and Doty didn’t know about them.

GB: Exactly. They wouldn’t tell what they were doing. There might have been somebody at the base who sort of knew what was going on but the intelligence agencies at least back then, I don’t know how they’re going to be doing things now, they were very secretive even with other intelligence people because you don’t know who these people are. Even if they’re checked out, they’re not cleared to know what Project “X” is so you’re not going to tell them about it unless you absolutely have to.

If Doty needed to know they were putting together some sort of system to encrypt messages or communications with weapons or something like that, they’d tell him. But if he wasn’t, they wouldn’t tell him and they’d keep him in the dark about it and as far as Doty or anybody else was concerned, they had no business to ask. And if they didn’t get a straight answer, they would drop it. The fact that they’re so secretive between each other causes these problems and makes it kind of comical, yes, but the reason for it is just the weird echelons of who needs to know what.

SM: What is your impression of Richard Doty? What do you think of him?

GB: Let’s see. I think he enjoyed that job. Keeping secrets, lying to people, keeping things from some people and not from others, having access to something that most people don’t; he enjoyed that. A lot of people would. I don’t know if I’d enjoy lying to people and playing games with them, I’m not that kind of person, but his personality was such that I think he likes to do that. Personally, when I met him, he didn’t say anything cryptic, he didn’t give me the impression he was trying to mess with me but since I knew he was that kind of person, I could pick some of those things out. While I was sitting there I just kind of let it all flow. He didn’t let me record it and I had to remember everything he said and immediately run back to the hotel and take two hours typing up everything he said so I wouldn’t forget it.

SM: That was actually my next question; you said he bull sh**ted you to a degree and you explained your criterion for actually putting information he gave you for putting into the book. Could you give me an example of something he told you that wasn’t true or you didn’t believe was true and didn’t end up in the book?

GB: He told me that one time Paul had been given a contract to work on something for the air force and he had gone out to this testing area out in the mountains near Albuquerque to do this on government land. He said while he was there he saw a UFO and took pictures of it, really good pictures. He told Doty about it and Doty had to go later to his house when Paul wasn’t there and replace the pictures Bennewitz had taken with blank frames and keep that information for the government. I was thinking, “Well there’s no way I can find this out. It sounds interesting but I don’t know whether I can put it in the book.”

Then I get back and I was talking with Bill about it and he starts laughing so I ask him why? He said that’s just like Rick and he’s come out with that story before with people and he’s never seen it in the literature or anything and he know its complete junk.

But the thing was, I think he was telling me that to let me know that’s what he did with Paul generally anyway. He’d go into the house, they’d find things which were sensitive and take them and either not replace them or replace them with blank frames and just generally keep tabs on him and keep the most sensitive stuff, whatever that might be. I think he was giving me a little hint there as to his modus operandi and what was going on with the fake story.

There was a physicist from the air force who did the same thing with me. He didn’t really tell me fake stories but he would answer questions I asked him later in the conversation or the next day or the next week or the next month, in another way. It’s a very weird thing. It takes time to pick up on this and realise that’s what’s going on. I didn’t realise it until I got home. I thought, “Oh my god, he’s giving me a hint about what was going on at the base by not answering my question directly but telling me to look in a certain area.” This guy drove me on to Kirtland air force base and drove me around and showed me things. This physicist is now in his 70s and he was in charge of a lot of things on the base and I asked him what they were so interested in, a fairly straight forward question. And he said he wasn’t really sure and there were a lot of things going on at the base at the time. He didn’t think it was the electro magnetic testing platform because that turned out that it didn’t do the job it was supposed to do after all that effort. Most of it is underground now and he drove me by it and I saw these antennas on top of it and there are bunkers underground and they do the testing under there now so you can’t see it.

But he also drove me near the Manzano weapons complex and at one end there’s the Star Fire optical range. And we could see it from the road there. You can’t see it from Albuquerque or from anywhere outside the base but we could see it there. It was off in the distance, maybe half a mile to a mile away. And he said, “Oh, did you know about this guy, Bob Fugate? He used to work there. He figured out all kinds of stuff. He figured out this adaptive optics system, which was a big deal at the time.

SM: I’ve got to say, that certainly was. The way you described that and the way they got round the problems with that was absolutely brilliant.

GB: But I think he said that to answer my question that I’d asked two days before. He didn’t answer me then. He answered it in this oblique way when we driving around the actual base.

SM: So it sounds like with these people that they have to think very carefully, they actually have to go away and think about an answer to the question. They sound like they’re being helpful but they don’t give you a direct response.

GB: I don’t think they go away and think about it. I think they know exactly what they’re doing the whole time. I think this guy was smart enough that he knew that he would direct the way that he would give me the information. He talked about a load of other things. He was interested in religion and spirituality, the Bible; he’s a very religious person. When we went out to lunch he would say grace before eating. He said it to himself; he wouldn’t make me do it. But we talked about so many other things as well and I didn’t really remember anything from those conversations because I didn’t think they were really important. Now I’m thinking it probably wasn’t very smart.

You meet some of these government people and people that are involved in secret projects, and they’re completely different from anybody you might know. They might drink a beer and have fun and talk about when they were in Vietnam and whatever. But, if you’re asking direct questions about things, if they can talk about it they might just answer your question but if you’re not backgrounded in figuring out what they’re saying, you’ll never catch it, and they don’t care. If you don’t catch it, they’re not going to repeat it. They’ll help you as much as they can, and I think those are the kind souls in the spy business. There are others that are either completely uncooperative or will say something to lead you astray specifically. I don’t think anybody I was talking to while I was doing the book did that in any specific or malicious way, as far as I could tell. I was really lucky with that.

SM: How high up the chain of command do you think Doty was? How genuinely knowledgeable was he? You start the book with you sat with him in this restaurant and he tells you straight out, UFOs are real.

GB: He believes that. As far as I can tell, I’m 80 to 90% sure of that. He’s been exposed to a lot of things that we aren’t and he said that. I don’t know for a fact but I’m pretty sure he has. He got to captain rank or something by the time he retired and he got into trouble for various things; making up stories and causing problems. He got a little over zealous in what he was doing and made some headaches for the air force. I talked to another guy, my friend Walter who was in AFOSI from about ’92 to ’96 approximately, he was an agent same as Doty was and they actually give them a lot of leeway as to how they do their job. They get orders but unlike a lot of other military organisations, they get a lot of latitude about how they go about doing their jobs. From our point of view, that looks like Doty had a lot of power and he was high up in the military etc. But the thing is, while not being a low level grunt, he was also not somebody in a command position. He was carrying out orders. It doesn’t mean he was stupid or that he didn’t know how to do his job or that he couldn’t have had a higher rank or whatever. What his position and job description dictated as regards to Bennewitz and with what went on at the bases, he was tasked to keep tabs on who was looking at what, how much they knew and if they were communicating with anybody then how they were doing that and how to stop it.

As I said, from our point of view that’s a lot of power, and it is, but from the military’s point of view, he was just doing the job of a detective.

SM: I suppose I meant more by my question, in terms of knowing the truth, the genuine reality, how far towards the top was he positioned in that sense?

GB: He knew more than us, but not much.

SM: Really?

GB: I don’t think so. He believes things in terms of what he was told by others in the military. If he actually saw something at Area 51 as he claims, I have no idea.

But based on talking with him and with Bill about him, and they both believe there is some other civilization visiting here, they both think that but as far as Doty is concerned, I don’t exactly know what he thinks that interaction is.

There are ways to dis-inform people on the inside as well as there is the rest of us. That’s the point of compartmentalisation. Certain people will know certain things. One or two or three people will probably know everything. I’m sure the President doesn’t even know the whole thing and I don’t think any president ever has. Then there are maybe two or three hundred people that know a great deal about it and then there’s probably thousands that just know enough of what they need to know to do their job.

And I think those very few who know the whole thing probably don’t even know the whole thing. They may only know this part or that part but it’s enough to really throw people through a loop if it’s true. Belief is a bad word but I think Doty has seen enough to make him believe that there is a, if not extraterrestrial, then at least another consciousness that deals with the human race and a lot of people in the government have known about that and have had interaction with it. I think he really believes that from what he was shown.

GB: Any sense of whether that race is benign or aggressive?

SM: I didn’t ask him about that but from what I can tell, I asked him if it bothered him and he said no. If there was something that was endangering the human race associated with it, he probably would have couched it in different terms. I don’t think anybody, even abduction researchers think that. Abduction researchers think they’re here to take all of our DNA and impregnate our women etc. That may be true but they seem to be the only ones saying that. I think the government for its part, I think they know what’s going on but they’re still confused about it. They’re more knowledgeable but they are knowledgeably confused! They don’t quite know how to handle it. They know that that big piece of information carries a lot of power with it and they don’t want to let that out. If I was in that position and my job and my livelihood depended on it, I probably wouldn’t say anything either. I might say tantalising things to a few people but I think it’s very easy for people to keep secrets. If Bill tells me something and says “Don’t tell anyone” then I don’t. It’s a courtesy. My job is my livelihood so there’s even more of an incentive to be like that unless someone p***es you off or whatever. I think the people that know this information, and other things like weapons systems and so on are very good at keeping quiet plus they are legally bound not to talk about it.

SM: Why do you think we’re not being told then?

GB: From what I said before. Because knowledge is power and if you know about something that nobody else does then you’ve got that much more of a lock in keeping them in their place and you in your place. And I’m not only talking about socially but I’m talking about politically too. I’m not sure if the United States knows what other nations think about it or what contact they’ve had. I’m sure they’re interested in it.

SM: I’m jumping about here a bit but something else that you strongly hint at in the book is that cattle mutilations are entirely a government organised event.

GB: Yeah. I don’t go out and do investigations, that’s just not what I do. I’m not interested in doing such a thing which puts me at a loss, especially if you talk to Linda Howe. The reason I thought that is because the one person I talked to who knew more about cattle mutilations than just about anybody except Linda Howe and Chris O’Brien and a couple of other people, was Gabe Valdez, and he said that during a lot of these mutilations, especially when he was working with them in northern New Mexico in the 70’s and 80s, they found gas masks lying about and radio chaff stuffed into a cow’s mouth in one instance – why would aliens do that? A lot of periphery things, hardware around these sites, like a boot or a glove or something like that. They find these things and if its aliens doing it all the time, why would they leave these things? It makes no sense whatsoever.

I asked Linda Howe about this and I couldn’t believe it when she said, “The aliens leave that stuff there to make us think its humans”. I think I said something like, “Okay, I guess I don’t have anything else to talk about with you.”

Almost none of the stuff they do is outside the realm of human abilities, really, as far as I can tell, except that Linda Howe has said that organs are removed and no place they can see where they’ve been taken out except maybe a little hole which means they’d have to liquefy it somehow and suck it out.

SM: Well yes, the surgical procedures have been commented on in the sense that medical procedures have been carried out that aren’t practised by the medical profession.

GB: But it’s not beyond the realm of possibility for humans to do. Almost none of it. There’s some of the things that happen that are which leaves the question open but what I was trying say in the book was that some if not most of these things are done by some sort of human agency. As to why, well I asked Gabe Valdez about that as well and Chris O’Brien who wrote Mysterious Valley and they think, and many researchers think the same thing, that there is some kind of pathogen that got out into the animal population sometime in the mid to late 60s and somebody is responsible for it and it’s starting to spread and they’re trying to figure out where it is and what it’s doing and how to stop it because it will decimate the native animal population because some of these things are found in elk and deer, I’m talking about some Mad Cow disease type stuff.

People ask why they can’t keep their own cows but then you don’t get a very good sampling.

SM: I know this argument Greg but they don’t need to keep their own cattle. Why can’t they just set up a legitimate wholesale business and buy in cattle from all over the country?

GB: Because people would wonder why they were doing it. There’s other things too although this goes off into speculation. The way it’s done, there’s helicopters flying over these places, these things happen at night, sometimes right next to people’s houses and nobody hears anything. Well, it’s a good way to test in a real environment how well you can sneak by and do things right under people’s noses, almost literally. Also to find out how it affects the population and what people think of it and what kind of information is being spread about it.

Its one of these intelligence operations, and I’m not saying the government are doing it – maybe some quasi government or private agency that’s being supported by the government who know about it – it covers a lot of bases. Field medical procedure, stealth, the spread of disinformation and rumours, so many different things. It sounds like I’m going around the bend to get away from the alien explanation, I’m not. The main reason I follow that line of thought, and Gabe Valdez who dealt with it intimately for many years follows the same line of thought, is that it’s the only thing that seems to explain some if not most of what’s going on. If there are aliens and they are out there performing cattle mutilations, they either might have done it first or someone is trying to copy them and hide under that scenario – I don’t know but nothing seems able to explain everything. But human element within cattle mutilations seems to explain a lot of it.

Chris O’Brien even found a group of people in the San Louis Valley that were trying to cover up for it and were seen there afterwards, some local outlaw type people, and the government and others are not above hiring criminals to do things if they think they can do the job properly. There are also aspects of ritual sacrifice and all that which enters into it. There are people who have actually witnessed others doing it. There’s a lot of activity around this nexus that can be explained in a lot of ways and a few that can’t.

SM: You say there are people who have witnessed cattle mutilations taking place?

GB: No, they haven’t witnessed the actual mutilation but they’ve seen people who don’t have access to helicopters and stealth technology and radios and all this wandering around near a cattle mutilation. Not actually killing it. They’ve seen people in robes and there’s candles there and stuff they find afterwards. There have been witnesses out there that have seen humans around cattle that have been killed and mutilated.

SM: So you’re talking about copycats.

GB: Yeah copycats or opportunistic people. Somebody who’s made some blood sacrifice for something or other. It gets a lot weirder than that when I got into it with Chris O’Brien on my radio show.

SM: Another interesting point, one explanation for identifying a UFO is the performance of the craft. The fact that it can suddenly dart off and shoot up at an incredible speed or angle and the automatic response of course is that there is nothing terrestrial that we’ve got that can perform like that. But you seem to intimate that that’s not necessarily true and that we already have that technology.

GB: Well, I was hinting that we might. A lot of people have said we might have that technology and whether it’s taken from aliens a la Philip Corso or not, I don’t know. I read Corso’s book and there’s nothing in there to prove anything except his opinion. I’m not saying he’s lying and it sounds good if you’re a UFO researcher or a fan or whatever. Unfortunately, there’s no way of proving it. Kind of like Bob Dean and his stuff about NATO headquarters in the 60s. But as far as I could tell, if these documents are true, scientists have been involved, specifically the United States government and I think the British government too, have been involved in anti-gravity research since at least the 50s. If they’ve got anywhere with that, perfected it or whatever, there’s absolutely no way they’re going to tell anybody that they are doing that. Bob and Ryan Wood are trying to determine where the technology that Corso described as coming from the aliens actually came from. They’re looking into the history of transistors, lasers, fibre optics, etc.

SM: The next sequitor is, why aren’t we seeing these sorts of aircraft in operation?

GB: People think they’re UFOs probably.

SM: Why haven’t we seen them in Iraq?

GB: I don’t know, I haven’t been to Iraq and I don’t know who’s there and who is reporting it.

SM: Oh, I see. I see.

GB: Did you hear recently that the Iranian air force got an order to shoot down any UFO?

SM: Well yeah, but they’re probably drones.

GB: If you look at purely physical science, you can’t have a person sitting in one of those things with that kind of performance because they’d die. They’d get smashed unless they found a way to cancel out inertia. I am confused about how they can do these things and not produce a sonic boom while going at 14,000 miles an hour.

SM: With the benefit of hindsight now, Bennewitz does appear to have been a disaster waiting to happen. Above all, his location, his residence, right across the road from the air base, his background, his interests, it just seemed to be a disaster waiting to happen.

GB: I guess so but like we said, if they had just told him to cut it out, it would probably never have happened.

SM: Has writing the book affected you or changed you in anyway?

GB: It didn’t change any of my beliefs about the subject. It made me feel good that I could finish a book on time. It was the first one I’d ever written. I’d edited the Exclusive Middle anthology and that was great as so many people liked that. But to actually write a book about something, meet all these people and talk to them…I tried to put it in some kind of context. That’s the essence of telling a decent story. I’m not totally happy with the book or the way the story was told but it’s a learning curve.

SM: What are you unhappy about with it?

GB: Well that Publishers Weekly review kind of stumped me because I realised they were right. I didn’t develop the characters as well as I could have. But part of that is it’s the first one I’ve written and the other part of it is, especially with Bennewitz, how the hell am I going to get into his brain if he’s dead and nobody wants to talk about him who knew him that well. I can’t make stuff up. I tried to stick to the information I had at hand and create a story with that.

SM: I think you’ve written a brilliant book and one that deserves the attention of the UFO community.

GB: British people seem to be interested in it because there’s a healthy scepticism. I don’t know if it’s the education system in the UK or what, but it comes out in Nick [Redfern] too. They’ve got a healthy, (and to some American minds pathological) scepticism about things and I respect that. Maybe not scepticism but an enquiring attitude; “Well, what are the pros and cons? Does this make sense, does this not make sense.” Leave your belief at the door and see if it can be changed by some sort of checkable facts.

That’s another reason why I wrote the book too actually, to answer that question and I’m glad you brought it up. If you can’t get past somebody’s decent research, checkable facts, actual living people who have been asked questions, documents etc. and make a conclusion that this isn’t what it seems to have been in the past, if you can’t get past what you find with that, and if it makes you have to change your opinion, well, then you’re probably doing ufology a disservice.

SM: I would agree with you but I think you’re doing your fellow Americans a disservice as well. I understand what you mean when you say we have a more sceptical attitude but my response to that would be, “Where’s it got us?” If anything we’re worse off here then you are in the States. You seem to have achieved much more than what researchers here have.

GB: (At this point, Greg made reference to another book coming out later this year by a well known author which I had not heard about it and would have expected to. I later asked someone else about it who confirmed that it was a well kept secret until publication. Sounds like it’s going to be a bomb shell. I know the subject matter but not what it’s about).

I just had a little part. My part was just along the edge, mostly of interest to UFO researchers because I’m basically saying the same thing Bill said in 1989. There are more receptive ears now as people have had 16 years for it to sink in. I think I’m not getting nearly the flack that Bill got.

I think he helped me as much as he could to do the book because it’s a book he wanted to write maybe at some point but he just couldn’t do it and didn’t want to. I went ahead and did it for him. He said there were things in the book he disagreed with but they were philosophical disagreements and “I can’t make you change what you wrote.” For the most part he said it was accurate and agreed with most things I had said. I asked him some very nasty questions about some things about why he did certain things and didn’t he feel guilty and this and that. He was really straight forward. Sometimes he got irritated but at all the time he answered my questions as best as he could. They were the same things he’d been saying for years just in more detail. I don’t have any reason to believe that anything that came from Bill was either a lie or disinformation. But he wouldn’t tell me who Falcon was, even though he’s dead.

SM: Darn, I was going to ask about that. Greg, it’s been fascinating, thank you.

Project Beta: The Story of Paul Bennewitz, National Security, and the Creation of a Modern UFO Myth by Greg Bishop is published by Paraview-Pocket Books.

The Excluded Middle editor, radio host, author and lecturer Greg Bishop has provided the field of UFO research with what is without doubt one if its major, published contributions. The subject matter of Project Beta is an unusual one; and were it not for the fact that the story is meticulously detailed, referenced and researched, the reader might be forgiven for thinking that they had stumbled upon a high-tech, X-Files-meets-Robert Ludlum-style thriller. But Project Beta tells a very real story - and one that is as harrowing as it is informative.

In essence, the truth-is-stranger-than-fiction book relates the story of physicist Paul Bennewitz, who after stumbling upon Air Force and National Security Agency secrets that he believes are connected to the activities of sinister extraterrestrials and UFOs, is bombarded by the murky world of officialdom with a mass of disinformation, faked stories and outright lies in order to both divert him from his research and lead to his mental and psychological disintegration.

While anyone and everyone with an interest in UFOs should read Greg's book, it is unlikely to please some - particularly the I-want-to-believe crowd that foam at the mouth whenever the words "underground base," "cattle mutilations," and "alien abductions" surface. As Greg shows, many of the cornerstones upon which today's ufological lore are built, had their origins in the fertile minds of military intelligence and the behind-the-scenes spook-brigade.

The UFO truth might not be "out there" after all - it may all be one big con behind which a veritable plethora of classified, military projects have been hidden.

Hopefully, Project Beta will open the floodgates that lead to questions being asked at a higher, official level about the Bennewitz affair, and those who manipulated the man to the point of collapse will be made to answer for their actions.

Greg Bishop can be contacted at www.excludedmiddle.com.

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Actually, I have been aware of the CIA's disinfomation campaign for a length of time, especially on UFOs and you can back-track to the Robertson Panel's recommendations in 1953 and get the rest of the story. I also remember the CIA's Glomar Explorer and its cover story for that ship, and to make a point, its cover story regarding that ship was no more dissimilar than its cover stories on UFOs and I would like for you to examine the CIA's cover story concerning UFOs of the 1950's that it sought to explain away as the U-2, which was false. The U-2 was explained away not as a UFO as the CIA falsely claimed, but as a high altitude weather aircraft.

The first time I read that story about the CIA's claim on the U-2, I knew that it was false but there were those who never knew the rest of the story so they basically took the CIA's explanation as law.


The "Pentacle Memorandum"

Including Text of Correspondence from Dr. Jacques Vallee

17-AUGUST-1993 - The "Pentacle Memorandum" has been a controversial item since its existence was revealed to the wider UFO community by Dr. Jacques Vallee in his excellent work Forbidden Science, (Copyright 1992, Jacques Vallee, North Atlantic Books, Berkeley CA, ISBN 1-55643-125-2).

Vallee found the two page memo in 1967 while working with Dr. Allen Hynek's papers and partially described it in Forbidden Science, giving the author of the memo the code name "Pentacle".

Shortly thereafter, a document which purported to be the Pentacle Memo came into limited circulation among certain researchers. We obtained our copy from Mr. Barry Greenwood , P.O. Box 218, Coventry, CT 06238).

Among other things, this document contains confirmation that Battelle Memorial Institute was working on UFO project(s) at the time of the Robertson Panel, (January 1953), and apparently could exercise some amount of control over the handling of the subject matter.

Since we believe that the 1952 - 1953 period is pivotal to understanding the nature of our government's response to UFO, we were pleased to discover that Dr. Vallee was working in some of the same areas (preparing Forbidden Science).

Although there is now testimony of a respected person in the 'UFO Community' regarding the Pentacle memo's authenticity, confirmation of the document by official release would be final proof. Since that has not as yet happened, this file has been placed the "Other Files" file section of CUFON.

This file contains the text of correspondence between Jacques Vallee and Dale Goudie, and between Dr. Vallee and Barry Greenwood. Mr. Goudie has provided the texts and we have chosen to post the letter from Vallee to Greenwood because we felt that it represented a clear, concise statement of the reasons Dr. Vallee thinks the Pentacle document so important, and as such, should be made available. The text of the Pentacle Memo is also included.

Dale Goudie Jim Klotz


"Disclaimer": CUFON lists the following references to the Pentacle Memo as a service to the reader only; there is no intention of providing a comprehensive listing of references. CUFON does not necessarily endorse any of the viewpoints expressed in the listed articles.

1. UFO Magazine, Vol.8, Nos.2 and 3, 1993. UFO Magazine P.O. Box 1053, Sunland, CA


2. Just Cause, Number 35, March 1993. PO Box 218, Coventry, CT 06238.

3. International UFO Reporter (IUR), Vol. 18, No. 3, May/June, 1993. J. Allen Hynek Center

for UFO Studies (CUFOS), 2457 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659


San Francisco, CA 12 June 1993

Dear Dale:

I welcome your inquiries, and I am glad to see that the 'Pentacle' memo has come out of obscurity. The document you sent me appears to be genuine. It corresponds to the one I saw.

The question of its origin may be unimportant. Perhaps the people who released it will go public eventually (I have an idea who they might be). The best course of action, however, would be to seek access to the original document, and to others of the same vintage.

I enclose a copy of my recent comments to Barry Greenwood on the same subject.

With best regards,

/s/ Jacques


Dale: FYI

(I don't know if this will be published by Greenwood.) J.V.

27 April 1993

Barry Greenwood


Dear Barry:

Thank you for sending me your thoughtful commentary about the Pentacle document. I do agree with you on one point: the significance of the memo comes, in part, from what it does not say. In particular, it makes no reference to any recovered UFO hardware, at Roswell or elsewhere, or to alien bodies. The greater significance of what it does say will slowly emerge in coming years as the overall implications come to light. Let me draw your attention to three specific points.

1. Project Twinkle and other observational efforts by the military, which you mention in an effort to show that Pentacle was only dusting off an old idea, were purely passive projects. In sharp contrast the Pentacle proposal goes far beyond anything mentioned before. It daringly states that "many different types of aerial activity should be secretly and purposefully scheduled within the area (my emphasis)." It is difficult to be more clear. We are not talking simply about setting up observing stations and cameras. We are talking about large-scale, covert simulation of UFO waves under military control.

2. The greatest implication, which is perhaps not obvious on first reading but which amounts to a scandal of major proportion in the eyes of any scientist, has to do with the outright manipulation of the Robertson panel. Here is a special meeting of the five most eminent scientists in the land, assembled by the government to discuss a matter of national security. Not only are they not made aware of all the data, but another group has already decided "what can and cannot be discussed (Pentacle's own words!)" when they meet. Dr. Hynek categorically stated to me that the panel was not briefed about the Pentacle proposals.

3. Revelation of this document may seem irrelevant to Just Cause, but its explosive nature wasn't lost on Battelle. As I noted in Forbidden Science, and as Fred Beckman vividly recalls to this day, the Project Stork team reacted with fury when Hynek went back to Battelle in 1967, demanding to know the truth. The man I have called Pentacle snatched his notes away and told him in no uncertain terms that the contents of the memo were not to be discussed, under any circumstances.

I find it odd that a group that claims to be interested in the historical study of our field, as Just Cause does, should fail to see the significance of the Pentacle Memo, which is an authentic document, when so much time, money and ink have been devoted over the last several years to an in-depth analysis of the MJ-12 papers, which were faked. Perhaps the Pentacle memo only proves that scientific studies of UFOs (and even their classified components) have been manipulated since the fifties. But it also suggests several avenues of research which are vital to the future of this field: why were Pentacle's proposals kept from the panel? Were his plans for a secret simulation of UFO waves implemented? If so, when, where and how? What was discovered as a result? Are these simulations still going on? I invite your group to turn its investigative resources and its analytical talent to this important task.

In reading Forbidden Science, you should recognize that the book is a Diary, not an analytical report or a memoir. Therefore many important inferences, many relevant details, can only be found by reading between the lines. Your preliminary analysis of the Pentacle memo is not unfair, but it is somewhat simplistic, and it takes it out of context. I invite you to go back for a second, closer reading.

cc: Fred Beckman

/s/ Jacques Vallee





cc: B. D. Thomas

H. C. Cross/A. D. Westerman

L. R. Jackson

W. T. Reid

P. J. Rieppal

V. W. Ellsey/R. J. Lund January 9, 1953


Extra [handwritten]

Mr. Miles E. Goll

Box 9575

Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio

Attention Capt. Edward J. Ruppelt

Dear Mr. Goll:

This letter concerns a preliminary recommendation to ATIC on future methods of handling the problem of unidentified aerial objects. This recommendation is based on our experience to date in analyzing several thousands of reports on this subject. We regard the recommendation as preliminary because our analysis is not yet complete, and we are not able to document it where we feel it should be supported by facts from the analysis.

We are making this recommendation prematurely because of a CIA-sponsored meeting of a scientific panel, meeting in Washington, D.C., January 14, 15, and 16, 1953, to consider the problem of "flying saucers". The CIA-sponsored meeting is being held subsequent to a meeting of CIA, ATIC, and our representatives held at ATIC on December 12, 1952. At the December 12 meeting our representatives strongly recommended that a scientific panel not be set up until the results of our analysis of the sighting-reports collected by ATIC were available. Since a meeting of the panel is now definitely scheduled we feel that agreement between Project Stork and ATIC should be reached as to what can and what cannot be discussed at the meeting in Washington on January 14-16 concerning our preliminary recommendation to ATIC.

Experience to date on our study of unidentified flying objects shows that there is a distinct lack of reliable data with which to work. Even the best-documented reports are frequently lacking in critical information that makes it impossible to arrive at a possible identification, i.e. even in a well-documented report there is always an element of doubt about the data, either because the observer had no means of getting the required data, or was not prepared to utilize the means at his disposal. Therefore, we recommend that a controlled experiment be set up by which reliable physical data can be obtained. A tentative preliminary plan by which the experiment could be designed and carried out is discussed in the following paragraphs.

Based on our experience so far, it is expected that certain conclusions will be reached as a result of our analysis which will make obvious the need for an effort to obtain reliable data from competent observers using the [... unreadable...] necessary equipment. Until more reliable data are available, no positive answers to the problem will be possible.


Mr. Miles E. Goll -2- January 9, 1953

We expect that our analysis will show that certain areas in the United States have had an abnormally high number of reported incidents of unidentified flying objects. Assuming that, from our analysis, several definite areas productive of reports can be selected, we recommend that one or two of theses areas be set up as experimental areas. This area, or areas, should have observation posts with complete visual skywatch, with radar and photographic coverage, plus all other instruments necessary or helpful in obtaining positive and reliable data on everything in the air over the area. A very complete record of the weather should also be kept during the time of the experiment. Coverage should be so complete that any object in the air could be tracked, and information as to its altitude, velocity, size, shape, color, time of day, etc. could be recorded. All balloon releases or known balloon paths, aircraft flights, and flights of rockets in the test area should be known to those in charge of the experiment. Many different types of aerial activity should be secretly and purposefully scheduled within the area.

We recognize that this proposed experiment would amount to a large-scale military maneuver, or operation, and that it would require extensive preparation and fine coordination, plus maximum security. Although it would be a major operation, and expensive, there are many extra benefits to be derived besides the data on unidentified aerial objects.

The question of just what would be accomplished by the proposed experiment occurs. Just how could the problem of these unidentified objects be solved? From this test area, during the time of the experiment, it can be assumed that there would be a steady flow of reports from ordinary civilian observers, in addition to those by military or other official observers. It should be possible by such a controlled experiment to prove the identity of all objects reported, or to determine positively that there were objects present of unknown identity. Any hoaxes under a set-up such as this could almost certainly be exposed, perhaps not publicly, but at least to the military.

In addition, by having resulting data from the controlled experiment, reports for the last five years could be re-evaluated, in the light of similar but positive information. This should make possible reasonably certain conclusions concerning the importance of the problem of "flying saucers".

Results of an experiment such as described could assist the Air Force to determine how much attention to pay to future situations when, as in the past summer, there were thousands of sightings reported. In the future, then, the Air Force should be able to make positive statements, reassuring to the public, and to the effect that everything is well under control.

Very truly yours,


H. C. Cross




Addendum: 18-February-2000 - Thanks to the work of several dedicated researchers into the historical aspects of UFO, much more is known today than was known back in 1993, but much yet remains to be uncovered. Wendy Connors of the Project Sign Research Center, is one of these fine researchers; she provided the following comments:

"Col. Miles Goll was an early kingpin at Wright Field and first worked as head of Fire Control for the Armament Lab during the war. Later, he was in T-2 and controlled access to the special situation room. Very little else is known about him, but he did have great connections at Wright Field and the Pentagon. I've been trying to dig up stuff on him, but it's pretty sparse."

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name='drew hempel' date='Sep 16 2006, 09:29 PM' post='1352941']

Here's a free interview with Redfern -- find out for yourself!


Actually, I already did and found that Nick Redfern did in fact state that some UFOs were those of extraterrestrial beings.

In that respect, Nick Redfern made a statement on ET reality that many others have already done.

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name='drew hempel' date='Sep 16 2006, 09:20 PM' post='1352935']


You cannot depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus"--Mark Twain

As far as UFOs are concerned, a multitude of reliable sources and methods have been used to verify what the eyes had seen.

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Nobody's selling you anything -- just go to your library and have them order this book! Stop ignoring all the documentation of CIA DISINFO -- read "The Stargate Conspiracy" -- !!


Contact: Nick Redfern

Email: nickredfern.nul

The Government Has Been Spying On Its Citizens

For More Than 50 Years

Wake up, America. There is nothing new about President Bush's

secret domestic spying program of American citizens. The

Government has been secretly spying on its citizens for more

than half a century in the cause of national security and

particularly on those citizens who have seen, been abducted by,

or study UFOs.

The complete story is detailed in a controversial new book

called On the Trail of the Saucer Spies: UFOs and Government

Surveillance by Nick Redfern, just published by Anomalist Books.

Redfern, who was himself the subject of government surveillance

for his interest in UFOs, uses on-the-record interviews,

previously-classified official records, and testimony provided

by insider-sources to tell this amazing story about how and why

Military, Intelligence, and Government agencies of both the U.S.

and U.K. have been secretly spying on UFO witnesses and


Highlights of On the Trail of the Saucer Spies include: the

FBI's officially-declassified reports on people who claim to

have met extraterrestrials; Top Secret surveillance of Alien

Abductees; the real-life Men in Black who spy on UFO witnesses;

phone-tapping and mail-interference of UFO researchers; Scotland

Yard's secret monitoring of UFO computer hackers; Secret

government files on researchers of the famous Roswell crash of

1947; infiltration of UFO research groups by secret agents; and

UFO authors suspected by the Government of working for hostile

nations to uncover defense secrets.

Nick Redfern is one of the world=92s foremost authorities on UFOs.

His previous books include A Covert Agenda; The FBI Files;

Cosmic Crashes; Strange Secrets (with Andy Roberts); Three Men

Seeking Monsters; and Body Snatchers in the Desert. He has

written for Military Illustrated; Eye-Spy; Fate; Fortean Times;

Phenomena Magazine; and the London Daily Express.

On The Trail Of The Saucer Spies: UFOs And Government


by Nick Redfern

Trade Paperback, 308 pages, illustrated, index, $15.95

ISBN: 1933665106

For more information visit: AnomalistBooks.com

Looks to me that Nick Redfern is the one offering DISINFORMATION.

Guess you swallowed it "hook line & sinker".

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Actually, I already did and found that Nick Redfern did in fact state that some UFOs were those of extraterrestrial beings.

In that respect, Nick Redfern made a statement on ET reality that many others have already done.

Considering he doesn't say that in any books that I've read, nor in the online interviews.... and considering you offer no quotes or references.....

Can't wait to listen to the interview so we can see just how honest you are!!

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As I've stated -- I have a history of successul research that instituted a $1.5 million divestment from Total Oil for their slave labor and that got the U of Minnesota to join the Workers Rights Consortium.

The documents and articles and MEETING NOTES are all online!

Viva la revolution... well done.. and the meeting notes are all online? Added bonus.

I bet that makes for some fascinating reading.. :sleepy:

Wait a minute, what's has any of this got to do with the disclosure project?

Please let's stay on topic.!

Take my advice, I'm not using it. :huh:

But if the documents exist then if you want to explain the mystery the evidence needs to be considered if it's pertinent to the issue at hand.

That's how any trial works, at scientific experiment, etc.


Scientific experiments!? What the…?

Yes, we can use scientific experiments to conclusively prove the document is... made out of...paper. Duh yourself.

Not only does the document have to be verified as authentic but the data within the document has to be separately verified, to all.

It may be verified privately to you but try proving this to others. Unfortunately, this is where is all falls down..

Anyway, a verified document can only increase or decrease the likely-hood (the odds) whether something is real or not; especially a subject of this nature.

Say for example, even if the MJ-12 documents are real, even this doesn't necessarily mean all the data contained within them is also correct.

Edited by rapid7
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Viva la revolution... well done.. and the meeting notes are all online? Added bonus.

I bet that make for some fascinating reading.. :sleepy:

Or maybe er I don't know, do some real research and meet people face to face, one on one?

Yep.. this sounds better.

There you go -- contradicting yourself -- one meeting telling me to "meet people face to face" and then when I point out I have a solid history of doing that kind of research on then state ....

Wait a minute, what's has any of this got to do with the disclosure project?

Take my advice, I'm not using it. :huh:

Scientific experiments!? What the…?

Yes, we can use scientific experiments to conclusively prove the document is... made out of...paper. Duh yourself.

Not only does the document have to be verified as authentic but the data within the document has to be separately verified, to all.

It may be verified privately to you but try proving his to others. Unfortunately, this is where is all falls down..

Anyway, a verified document can only increase or decrease the likely-hood (the odds) whether something is real or not; especially a subject of this nature.

Say for example, even if the MJ-12 documents are real, even this doesn't necessarily mean all the data contained within them is also correct.

So you're a hypocrite right here on this thread! So far we have one "true believer" and another who thinks that well-established research -- Nick Redfern's books based on declassified documented -- should be ignored! Ha the great "unexplained mysteries" seem to be quite the opposite! haha This forum is for idiots!!

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So you're a hypocrite right here on this thread! So far we have one "true believer" and another who thinks that well-established research -- Nick Redfern's books based on declassified documented -- should be ignored! Ha the great "unexplained mysteries" seem to be quite the opposite! haha This forum is for idiots!!

Oh I'm a hypocrite? Yep, we’ve all noticed if anyone disagrees with you they’re a hypocrite, idiot or disinfo agent. :lol:

Anyway many Ufologists do respect Nick Redfern’s research but just disagree with his conclusions. Which, funny enough are debatable.

Unfortunately, the more you endorse Nick's work, the more a detrimental effect it has and puts people off.

Keywords; debatable- paranoid-egotistical-mental health issues.

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name='drew hempel' date='Sep 17 2006, 12:18 AM' post='1353074']

Considering he doesn't say that in any books that I've read, nor in the online interviews.... and considering you offer no quotes or references.....

UFO Enigma

by Nick Redfern

"The big questions, of course, are: Do I think that there is a cover-up of UFO data on the part of British authorities and do I believe that some UFOs are alien in origin? My answer to both questions is undoubtedly, YES."

Nick Redfern

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UFO Enigma

by Nick Redfern

"The big questions, of course, are: Do I think that there is a cover-up of UFO data on the part of British authorities and do I believe that some UFOs are alien in origin? My answer to both questions is undoubtedly, YES."

Nick Redfern

This is all we wanted to know. :tu: Nick Redfern believes some UFOs are alien in origin? Oh no! No doubt, some people will accuse him of being a stinking hypocritical CIA disinfo agent. :lol:

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UFO Enigma

by Nick Redfern

"The big questions, of course, are: Do I think that there is a cover-up of UFO data on the part of British authorities and do I believe that some UFOs are alien in origin? My answer to both questions is undoubtedly, YES."

Nick Redfern

Finally you provide some specific information so that it can be addressed specifically! That quote is from 2000. Consider this quote from 2004 in Phenomena Magazine:

NR: I do have some ideas and plans for future books. One area that I'm particularly interested in is the way in which government and intelligence agencies have employed the use of the UFO subject as a cover-story for other events, such as classified aircraft test-flights. So that's where I'm going right now: looking at how the UFO subject has been manipulated as a tool of disinformation and psychological warfare.

So again if you actually read Nick Redfern's books instead of refusing to investigate the issue at hand maybe you would be participating in the exchange of information which is CURRENT -- not just asking if people are "true believers."

This is a forum, based on information and evidence -- NOT ON EXCLAMATIONS OF BLIND FAITH.

If you want to professor your faith in UFO alien spaceships, as you have done repeatedly, you are not stating anything new!

You are a spammer. Nothing more nothing less.

Read Nick Redfern POST 2004 -- what do you find -- NO Proclamations that UFOs are Alien spaceships. Total Debunkings of CIA disinformation promoting Alien Spacecraft. Total FOIA declassification of government documents proving top-secret craft that fit the description of supposed alien spacecraft.

Nick Redfern does not deny any possibilities -- he just goes with EVIDENCE AND SPECIFIC INFORMATION.

Stop Spamming!!

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Look who's spamming, this topic is 7 pages long with 80% of the text yours lol.

I cannot even keep up with half the things spewing out here lol, so ill just back away slowly.o.O

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name='drew hempel' date='Sep 17 2006, 02:21 PM' post='1353615']

Nick Redfern does not deny any possibilities -- he just goes with EVIDENCE AND SPECIFIC INFORMATION.

Okay! You said it, I didn't!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- <^>

British Vet Claims UFO Crashed in Wales

"A new book by researcher Nick Redfern makes the claim that a UFO crashed in a remote valley in the Clwyd district of Wales back in January 1974."

"Among the arrivals, according to Redfern, were British Army units, one of which took custody of the two alien bodies."


Nick Redfern

"Nick Redfern was born in 1964 and has been interested in the UFO phenomenon since 1978. His interest was prompted by his father, who served in the RAF on radar and who was involved in a UFO incident in September 1952."

"Every month, Nick will be revealing hitherto-classified UFO files from the archives of the RAF and the Ministry of Defence, including files on pilot encounters with UFOs, unidentified objects tracked on radar, police encounters with unexplained aerial phenomena and more. The UFO secrets of the British Government will soon be secret no more! "

"He writes regularly for the British journal, UFO Magazine and the sister publication, The Unopened Files." http://www.destinationspace.net/ufo/govdocs/redfernintro.asp

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- <^>

With as many books you've claimed to have read of his, weren't you even aware of Nick Redfern's background?

Edited by skyeagle409
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Finally you provide some specific information so that it can be addressed specifically!

Actually, this was supposed to be your Job. Instead, you're just posting an interview with Nick Redern and offering it as some kind of conclusive evidence.

That quote is from 2000. Consider this quote from 2004 in Phenomena Magazine:

This tells us... that Nick, maybe changed his mind and changed his opinion and that's all.

Which is entirely up to him. Maybe he'll change again. It's up to him, not like there's a law against it. Depends how highly you regard Mr Redfern's opinion in the first place.


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name='rapid7' date='Sep 17 2006, 02:44 AM' post='1353206']

This is all we wanted to know. :tu: Nick Redfern believes some UFOs are alien in origin? Oh no! No doubt, some people will accuse him of being a stinking hypocritical CIA disinfo agent. :lol:

I can only wonder whom that would be!

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