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Mr Slayer

-Abortion-

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Mr Slayer

Alright.

Yesterday, I read through my Amnesty International newspaper I'm receiving four times a year. When I came to the discussion pages there were two distinct comments there.

Two Roman Catholic Christians were encouraging others to leave Amnesty since the organization stated it was positive to the right for free abortion, something that apparently clashed with the two Christians' beliefs.

They were saying people always forget about the rights of the unborn child and that there should be more responsibility demanded from the parents.

I'm wondering now, what happens if there are no "parents", but only a rapist and a victim? Thousands of women are killed together with their children because they had an extramarital child, rape or not.

Let's for a second assume that the unborn one is actually a biological life (I'm a biologist, I can argue against this for hours if you want).

An abortion would save the mother's life, no abortion often claims both lives. How do Christians justify that?

And what about the talk of responsibility? In the Third World, there can be no such responsibility, since many missionaries and Christian branches are against contraceptives!

Edited by AshKatNah

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Mr. Fahrenheit

It seems that these people stop caring for the "child" once it's born anyway.

Good post, Ash. :tu:

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mold

Alright.

Yesterday, I read through my Amnesty International newspaper I'm receiving four times a year. When I came to the discussion pages there were two distinct comments there.

Two Roman Catholic Christians were encouraging others to leave Amnesty since the organization stated it was positive to the right for free abortion, something that apparently clashed with their beliefs.

They were saying people always forget about the rights of the unborn child and that there should be more responsibility demanded from the parents.

I'm wondering now, what happens if there are no "parents", but only a rapist and a victim? Thousands of women are killed together with their children because they had an extramarital child, rape or not.

Let's for a second assume that the unborn one is actually a biological life (I'm a biologist, I can argue against this for hours if you want).

An abortion would save the mother's life, no abortion often claims both lives. How do Christians justify that?

And what about the talk of responsibility? In the Third World, there can be no such responsibility, since many missionaries and Christian branches are against contraceptives!

Well i would say if you don't want the baby give it to someone that can't have baby's and that really wants a family . Hey even people that want a baby and try for it has the posibilty to die at birth aswell.

Personally i don't like the thought of people going through with abortion but its thier choice :tu: and noone can take it away if the law allows it.

/regards

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Grandpa Greenman

In a perfect world every child would be welcome and loved, but we don't live in this kind of world. Personally in my beliefs an abortion is a tragedy, all life is sacred, BUT women have the right to control her destiny. No one has the right to impede on that.

Biologically not every fertilized egg becomes a child, women naturally expel many of them in the course of a life time with out even knowing it happened, so to call each and every fertilized egg a child is a fallacy.

As far as birth control goes it is pure selfishness on the part of the church. The only way they can reliably get new members is to have them born in to it. In this day in age of over population to tell people not to use birth control is gross irresponsibility. If the church was forced to pay to the feeding, education, and clothing of every child born, plus all the victims of STD’s, in an over crowded third world country they might change their tune.

Let's for a second assume that the unborn one is actually a biological life(I'm a biologist, I can argue against this for hours if you want).a

?????

Of course it is biological life the question is whether it is sentient or not. I would think at some point of development it is, but to say it is at conception takes it a little far. To be sentient it must have a brain, I am not sure at what point the brain develops. I am not a biologist.

Edited by Darkwind

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Bella-Angelique

To be sentient it must have a brain

I'll go with this definition of human life.

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Sthenno

I think what the OP was referring to was women who become pregnant in countries where having a child outside of marriage is punishable, sometimes by death. I don’t think having the child and giving it away would be a solution in that case.

With regards to the point at which an unborn child becomes sentient, isn’t this the point where abortion becomes illegal anyway?

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Bella-Angelique

With regards to the point at which an unborn child becomes sentient, isn’t this the point where abortion becomes illegal anyway?

No.

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Sthenno

Well that was a useful reply. What does define the point where it becomes illegal then?

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Bella-Angelique

Well that was a useful reply. What does define the point where it becomes illegal then?

Individual national government. Politicians and dictators.

As far as I know, there is not a single nation that allows abortion where a scan is done for individual development of the fetal brain to determine sentience present.

Edited by Bella-Angelique

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ramster83

My simple and humble opinion on the matter? If one has a child - even if my accident and wants to abort...I would call it ending a life most definetely. If the child was a "mistake" its YOUR problem and you have to deal with it. Once confirmed pregnant a woman is responsible for her child - even before birth...If she gets the child aborted she is killing part of herself too- part of her body. The bond between mother and child doesnt start once its out of her and in the world...The bond of mother and child starts when her tummy starts growing...when she has a life forming inside of her. Abortion should only be okay in the strongest of circumstances and with very good reason- otherwise stick to condoms.

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Sthenno

Maybe it’s different outside of the UK but here is abortion is legal until the foetus is at X weeks. I can’t remember the exact number of weeks but I was under the impression it corresponded with a certain stage of brain development.

Ramster are you not aware that contraception is not *shock horror* 100% reliable? Accidents do happen, and if it is as you say ‘YOUR’ problem (which it’s not – if it’s anyone’s problem it’s *theirs*. It takes two people.) then surely it is your right to choose your solution?

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GreyWeather

what if the condom breaks? (it has a 3% chance of doing so)

also, the woman isn't killing a part of herself, the fetus - up until it is born - is basically a parasite. Still, what business is it of anyone else if a woman aborts or not. If a woman *knows* she can't support a child or knows she can't bring it up in a loving envirnment, or is even raped. Then it is no-one's but her decision on whether to go for an abortion or to put it up for adoption.

EDIT

Sthenno, I think it's 7 or 9 weeks.

Edited by Leliel

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Bella-Angelique

With genetic manipulation and advances in AI we will have to determine sooner or later the rights of different levels of sentience to exist.

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IamsSon

Two Roman Catholic Christians were encouraging others to leave Amnesty since the organization stated it was positive to the right for free abortion, something that apparently clashed with the two Christians' beliefs.

They were saying people always forget about the rights of the unborn child and that there should be more responsibility demanded from the parents.

How dare someone ask people to take responsibility! These people should not leave Amnesty... they should be kicked out and summarily executed for even thinking that someone should take responsibility for their actions!

I'm wondering now, what happens if there are no "parents", but only a rapist and a victim? Thousands of women are killed together with their children because they had an extramarital child, rape or not.

Well, for one, although proponents of abortion keep bringing these types of instances up, they make up a very small percentage of the pregnancies that are ended by abortion.

Additionally, maybe instead of spending the money on abortions and promoting abortions the money could be spent on educating these cultures that murder is not the proper response to these incidents. Why not try to save lives instead of ending innocent ones.

Let's for a second assume that the unborn one is actually a biological life (I'm a biologist, I can argue against this for hours if you want).

So, biologically speaking, when does life begin? What is this based on? Are these basis the same as for plant life? for insect life?

An abortion would save the mother's life, no abortion often claims both lives. How do Christians justify that?

There is no way to justify that, but whoever murders these women should face punishment for murder, just as anyone who kills an unborn child should also face murder charges.

And what about the talk of responsibility? In the Third World, there can be no such responsibility, since many missionaries and Christian branches are against contraceptives!

Most missionaries are actually members of denominations which have no such ban.

Responsibility actually would start even before the event that led to conception and would, therefore, prevent the event before conception occurred. Again, those events of rape would be addressed by educating the culture as to more proper responses than murder of the victim and her innocent child.

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Sthenno

Iamson the solution to women becoming pregnant through rape is not to educate those around her on how to treat her. You talk like abortion is inhumane, but it would be a million times crueller to force a woman who has been assaulted in such a way to spend nine months carrying the child of the man who had attacked her. Can I make the assumption that you are a man?

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Paranoid Android

Abortion in the third world is a tough question, and a very good one to ask. Having a child outside of marriage, even if it is rape, punishable by death.....

I believe that it is wrong for anyone to take the life of another being, even if it is still just a foetus. But on the other side of things, if the woman and the baby are just going to be killed anyway, then it becomes a matter of the lesser of two evils. Abort the baby and save the mother, or let the baby come and kill both.

If someone living in the First World is raped and chooses to have an abortion, I can agree with their decision. I think it is wrong, but I can agree with it. I think adoption would be a better option, but it's up to the individual, really.

When someone has an abortion simply because they "made a mistake", I think that's the epitome of everything that's wrong with this world. It is completely selfish, completely self-serving. I do not agree or condone the actions of anyone who chooses to end the life growing inside them. Whether they used protection and something just went wrong is quite irrelevant. If you have sex, be prepared to take the consequences. Just because they didn't intend to get pregnant does not give them the right to kill a child, even a foetus.

That said, though i disagree with people's choices, I am not going to deny anyone the right to choose an abortion. THough I will never agree with their choice, I will accept their right to make such a choice.

Selfishness. That's what it boils down to.

Regards, PA

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IamsSon

Iamson the solution to women becoming pregnant through rape is not to educate those around her on how to treat her. You talk like abortion is inhumane, but it would be a million times crueller to force a woman who has been assaulted in such a way to spend nine months carrying the child of the man who had attacked her. Can I make the assumption that you are a man?

That is a very correct assumption, I am a man.

I am aware that it would be a horrible situation, but people have to live through horrible situations all the time. Is it less horrible to kill someone who is completely innocent of a crime, and is in fact, even more of a victim?

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Sthenno

PA that’s a very unfair statement. It is only a selfish act according to your beliefs, because you believe every life is sacred and this includes an unborn child. But not everyone believes the same thing. Many people do not believe that an unborn child is yet a life, so to them it is not a selfish act. To say that it is so, not that you believe it is so, is imposing your personal beliefs on other people. You do not know the individual situations that people can find themselves in, and to say it all boils down to selfishness could be very upsetting to many people. I think it is something you have to be a woman to understand fully.

Iamson you are doing the same thing. You are applying your own opinion of what constitutes a life and what does not without acknowledging that it is not a universally accepted truth. It is your belief, nothing more.

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Celumnaz

I don't think it should be allowed except in cases of rape or risk of death (or some other unique exception). The choice to have a baby or not, if you're ready or not, should be made before you go jumping on beds.

Edited by Celumnaz

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IamsSon

PA that’s a very unfair statement. It is only a selfish act according to your beliefs, because you believe every life is sacred and this includes an unborn child. But not everyone believes the same thing. Many people do not believe that an unborn child is yet a life, so to them it is not a selfish act. To say that it is so, not that you believe it is so, is imposing your personal beliefs on other people. You do not know the individual situations that people can find themselves in, and to say it all boils down to selfishness could be very upsetting to many people. I think it is something you have to be a woman to understand fully.

Iamson you are doing the same thing. You are applying your own opinion of what constitutes a life and what does not without acknowledging that it is not a universally accepted truth. It is your belief, nothing more.

So, at worst, I am doing the same thing that people who promote abortion do. I am assuming I am right. This is one of those debates, unlike evolution vs. creationism, or other fun debates around UM, where I do not think we can simply say, "Well, yes, this is my opinion and if it does not match your opinion, then don't worry about it." Murder is murder is murder. The nazis did not think that killing Jews, homosexuals, and gipsies was wrong because they were not Aryan and, therefore, not worthy of life. Some people indescriminately kill animals, because they are just animals, they have no intelligence, so who cares if they live.

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ramster83
Ramster are you not aware that contraception is not *shock horror* 100% reliable? Accidents do happen, and if it is as you say ‘YOUR’ problem (which it’s not – if it’s anyone’s problem it’s *theirs*. It takes two people.) then surely it is your right to choose your solution?

Yes i am aware that contraception has a couple percent chance of breaking and remember i said within reason. Yet some plain out have unprotected sex- take the risk- then whoops...Im pregnant- i guess ill have an abortion- too easy. Thats a dirty lifestyle and is careless on behalf of ones self and the potential of pro-creation that they are given.

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Sthenno

The killing of an unborn child is not the same as Nazis murdering Jews. What I was objecting to was your statement of something as fact when it is not, it is your personal belief. I personally do not believe a foetus in the early stages of development counts as a life. But when I state that I will always clarify that that is my opinion, not a fact. You, on the other hand, openly refer to it as a life as if that has somehow been proven beyond all doubt.

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Sthenno

Yes i am aware that contraception has a couple percent chance of breaking and remember i said within reason. Yet some plain out have unprotected sex- take the risk- then whoops...Im pregnant- i guess ill have an abortion- too easy. Thats a dirty lifestyle and is careless on behalf of ones self and the potential of pro-creation that they are given.

I would say the percentage of people who use abortion as a form of regular contraception is very low.

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Paranoid Android

PA that’s a very unfair statement.

It may be a little unfair. That doesn't change the way I feel. I'm not going to deny anyone their right to have an abortion, but I sure as hell can't agree with them on that decision. Maybe I do have to be a woman to understand it. In the absence of pending womanhood though, I guess I'm just going to have to try my best on my own. Edited by Paranoid Android

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ramster83
also, the woman isn't killing a part of herself, the fetus - up until it is born - is basically a parasite. Still, what business is it of anyone else if a woman aborts or not. If a woman *knows* she can't support a child or knows she can't bring it up in a loving envirnment, or is even raped. Then it is no-one's but her decision on whether to go for an abortion or to put it up for adoption.

Yeah we do have to look at it all from all angles so i understand that. As for the business of anyone else ? What if the father/boyfriend/fling wants the baby? This could lead to all parts of conflict because he did take part in the pro-creation so it is his business too.

If a woman is raped then i think an abortion is acceptable because she had no choice in the matter. If the condom broke, well the chances are very slim and trust me not every gir lthat checks in to a abortion clinic had a condom break thats FAR MORE than 3%. Also if a girl KNOWS she cant bring up or support a child in a loving environment then why is she having unprotected/fun sex and not care about getting pregnant cause she can just have an abortion? When we look at figures- if condom breakage is 3% and rape is maybe 1 or 2% whats the rest? Carelessness!

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