-Abortion-

[ramster83]

To me abortion is a slap in the face for all of those people that cant have children , that are infertile that cant appreciate the joy of bringing up a life naturally. What about all the people that would die to have children? Seeing others disrespect procreation like that is a big kick in the teeth...I could see them asking "Why couldnt i have that opportunity- where i could respect the blessing that i have- of pro-creation".

[Sthenno]

I understand where you’re coming from PA, but with topics like this I think you have to be wary as you don’t know who’s reading it and you could really upset someone. Maybe it would have been better reworded as “in my opinion it is selfish”.

Ramster – have you ever looked at the percentage of rapes that occur and the percentage that are reported? I think that could go some way to rebalancing your statistics. Also many other forms of contraception fail, the pill for example is not 100% reliable. You are also not taking into account the young, the poorly educated, the mentally ill… there are hundreds of reasons for an abortion and carelessness is only one.

[IamsSon]

The killing of an unborn child is not the same as Nazis murdering Jews. What I was objecting to was your statement of something as fact when it is not, it is your personal belief. I personally do not believe a foetus in the early stages of development counts as a life. But when I state that I will always clarify that that is my opinion, not a fact. You, on the other hand, openly refer to it as a life as if that has somehow been proven beyond all doubt.

Sthenno, you just did what you say you don't do!

Killing an innocent child is like murdering Jews simply because they are not people to you; exactly the same.

[Mr. President]

Alright.

Yesterday, I read through my Amnesty International newspaper I'm receiving four times a year. When I came to the discussion pages there were two distinct comments there.

Two Roman Catholic Christians were encouraging others to leave Amnesty since the organization stated it was positive to the right for free abortion, something that apparently clashed with the two Christians' beliefs.

They were saying people always forget about the rights of the unborn child and that there should be more responsibility demanded from the parents.

I'm wondering now, what happens if there are no "parents", but only a rapist and a victim? Thousands of women are killed together with their children because they had an extramarital child, rape or not.

Let's for a second assume that the unborn one is actually a biological life (I'm a biologist, I can argue against this for hours if you want).

An abortion would save the mother's life, no abortion often claims both lives. How do Christians justify that?

And what about the talk of responsibility? In the Third World, there can be no such responsibility, since many missionaries and Christian branches are against contraceptives!

Personally about abortion I am not sure what I believe, therefore I consider myself undecided. I can see it from both perspectives and neither perspective seems wrong.

[ramster83]

Ramster – have you ever looked at the percentage of rapes that occur and the percentage that are reported? I think that could go some way to rebalancing your statistics. Also many other forms of contraception fail, the pill for example is not 100% reliable. You are also not taking into account the young, the poorly educated, the mentally ill… there are hundreds of reasons for an abortion and carelessness is only one.

Point well taken there surely are circumstances for each and every abortion. At the end of the day if the reasons are valid then by all means do it. Yet only the girl at that abortion clinic- making the decision knows exactly why she is doing it...and if she just didnt want a baby today- is one of her reasons - then all shame to her.

[hyperactive]

well ramster, all those peope taking it as a slap in the face need to get over themselves!

abortion is something that is a WOMAN's choice, period. Everybody else needs to keep out of it.

[truethat]

I get really annoyed when the abortion debate comes up and people leap to the 'what if she was raped" argument. Why do you jump to the extreme? Its like trying to win the argument instead of having a discussion.

We all know that most abortions are not done because of rape. But they should be. That's the problem. Abortions should be used in this type of a situation only. Even then it is murder but its unfair to ask a traumatised woman to deal with a pregnancy. In addition most rape victims are given a morning after pill if they are raped if I am not mistaken. So its really not a situation where you are going into the clinic 8 weeks pregnant.

Abortion is murder. It definitely is murder. But lets look at why it is used. The needs of the mother outweigh the needs of the baby. That is a fair reason unfortunately. Mother's life is in danger. Illness. Etc. So obviously abortion should be used as a medical treatment for medical reasons.

The problem I see in the world regarding abortion, is that abstinence is not taught to women. I understand that teens want to have sex and such things, however the idea that we are telling teens that they "can't help themselves" and here's a condom, well that's setting them up in a sense to believe that they can't say no.

I am all for teens to be educated regarding sex. But take it a step further. Which they don't. Teach girls to recoginize when they are ovulating and tell them that they should pay attention to this and use abstinence in the days they may be ovulating.

In addition abortion is not the only problem that comes out of careless sex. Unwanted pregnancy is a big problem when they chose to have the baby as well. Children born into the world uncared for and unwanted and resented. Or simply young people overburdened with responsibility.

The debate is on abortion when it should be on the bigger problem.

[Sthenno]

I think you misunderstood me. Even if I did see an unborn child as a life, one person’s thought out decision to terminate it is not the same as a massacre of thousands. It’s just quite clearly not the same thing.

[Mr. President]

I get really annoyed when the abortion debate comes up and people leap to the 'what if she was raped" argument. Why do you jump to the extreme? Its like trying to win the argument instead of having a discussion.

We all know that most abortions are not done because of rape. But they should be. That's the problem. Abortions should be used in this type of a situation only. Even then it is murder but its unfair to ask a traumatised woman to deal with a pregnancy. In addition most rape victims are given a morning after pill if they are raped if I am not mistaken. So its really not a situation where you are going into the clinic 8 weeks pregnant.

Abortion is murder. It definitely is murder. But lets look at why it is used. The needs of the mother outweigh the needs of the baby. That is a fair reason unfortunately. Mother's life is in danger. Illness. Etc. So obviously abortion should be used as a medical treatment for medical reasons.

The problem I see in the world regarding abortion, is that abstinence is not taught to women. I understand that teens want to have sex and such things, however the idea that we are telling teens that they "can't help themselves" and here's a condom, well that's setting them up in a sense to believe that they can't say no.

I am all for teens to be educated regarding sex. But take it a step further. Which they don't. Teach girls to recoginize when they are ovulating and tell them that they should pay attention to this and use abstinence in the days they may be ovulating.

In addition abortion is not the only problem that comes out of careless sex. Unwanted pregnancy is a big problem when they chose to have the baby as well. Children born into the world uncared for and unwanted and resented. Or simply young people overburdened with responsibility.

The debate is on abortion when it should be on the bigger problem.

I agree with you completely.

[ramster83]

well ramster, all those peope taking it as a slap in the face need to get over themselves!

abortion is something that is a WOMAN's choice, period. Everybody else needs to keep out of it.

Okay hyper so if you are with a girl- the condom breaks- she falls pregnant- at the time you were ready to be a Dad...You had an income, a job and were against abortion- yet your girl doesnt care what you think because it is just HER decision and she decides to abort- wouldn't that hurt you for these facts.

A) She acts like you didnt take part in the pro-creation

B ) She doesnt care about your important opinion

C) Shes only looking at it from her perspective.

You gotta think about that. I know it'd hurt me.

Edited September 22, 2006 by ramster83

[Mr. President]

I think you misunderstood me. Even if I did see an unborn child as a life, one person’s thought out decision to terminate it is not the same as a massacre of thousands. It’s just quite clearly not the same thing.

That belief sanctions murder. That's like a murderer kills his family and when caught he says, "It's not like I killed thousands like HItler so it's ok." Life is life muder is murder, whether its one or many.

[Celumnaz]

Men share this world too, and the effects on society affect everyone. Can't shut men out of the debate just because they're unable to bear children. Men Exsist! We're part of the problem/solution too! Deal with it!

Feels like it's like telling my wife her desires have no standing because she doesn't make any money and if she wants to be part of any decision she has to go make money. If I want to contribute to the abortion debate I have to have a womb.

[Sthenno]

A thought out decision to terminate a preganancy, whether you think of it as an existing life or not, is not the same as the calculated destruction of an entire race.

Truethat – yet again, someone who refuses to accept that it is only your belief it is murder, not a given fact.

[ramster83]

Men share this world too, and the effects on society affect everyone. Can't shut men out of the debate just because they're unable to bear children. Men Exsist! We're part of the problem/solution too! Deal with it!

Feels like it's like telling my wife her desires have no standing because she doesn't make any money and if she wants to be part of any decision she has to go make money. If I want to contribute to the abortion debate I have to have a womb.

Excellent point. Many have the "You're a MAN - you have no say" defence to the abortion topic when its invalid really.

[Bella-Angelique]

A lot of married couples get abortions when contraception fails. It is unfortunate that some couples are sterile, but a woman is not a breeding resource for the general population.

Pregnancies can be terminated very early as pregnancy can now be determined very early. If there was more concentration on early termination rather than eliminating all termination everybody would be better off, including the world population in general.

Each pregnancy and birth causes a permanent change to a woman's body and it is not a good one other than perhaps after the first birth. Consider having one inch off your penis removed and your legs broken for each child you produce as a male to help you relate. It is best for a woman to not have more than two or three children, and four at the most.

There is a reason that it is mostly women that have to use Depends after they age rather than men. Most are women who had more than two children.

[hyperactive]

Okay hyper so if you are with a girl- the condom breaks- she falls pregnant- at the time you were ready to be a Dad...You had an income, a job and were against abortion- yet your girl doesnt care what you think because it is just HER decision and she decides to abort- wouldn't that hurt you for these facts.

A) She acts like you didnt take part in the pro-creation

B ) She doesnt care about your important opinion

C) Shes only looking at it from her perspective.

You gotta think about that. I know it'd hurt me.

no.

ultimately, it is HER body and thus it must be her decision in the end.

[Sthenno]

Woohoo, go BA!

And guys, no one was saying you can’t contribute, just that you can’t fully understand how the decision affects a woman. That’s not your fault, you’re just not biologically programmed to be able to. That’s not to say, however, that you shouldn’t have a say in what happens if your girlfriend/wife falls pregnant.

[Celumnaz]

No say in how it affects society as a whole either apparently.

Edit: while ignoring the fact that it's a decision best made before jumping on beds.

Edited September 22, 2006 by Celumnaz

[Sthenno]

Hyper, I’m not sure if I agree with you there. It is her body, but it is the father’s decision too. This is where it becomes complicated. There’s no real answer to this, it is something that has to decided by each individual depending on the circumstances. If, for example, the mother does not want the child and the father does, but the father already has four children by different mothers who he does not support then the mother should be allowed to override the decision.

[ramster83]

no.

ultimately, it is HER body and thus it must be her decision in the end.

Really? Thats pretty contraversial i have to say. During sex she yells yes yes yes and tells you to get closer- but when shes pregnant she yells no no no and tells you to keep away. Someones being used.

[truethat]

A thought out decision to terminate a preganancy, whether you think of it as an existing life or not, is not the same as the calculated destruction of an entire race.

Truethat – yet again, someone who refuses to accept that it is only your belief it is murder, not a given fact.

Murder is the killing of another human being.

I am not putting a judgement on it at this point. Just stating a fact. It is murder. Why do people get all twisted in trying to insist it is not murder?

When Scott Peterson killed his wife and unborn child he was charged with two counts of murder.

However I am looking at the situation completely without judgement. I don't suggest that people who committ this murder are evil or bad or whatnot. It just is what it is.

The problem with abortion discussions is that emotions get pulled into it.

So for example if you talk about euthanasia, which is the argument that a lot of people use for abortion, "what kind of life is this child going to have?" its still murder in the strictest of definitions.

Euthanasia is murder for one reason. Abortion is murder for another reason. Execution is murder for another reason. But they are still murder.

[+Paranoid Android]

no.

ultimately, it is HER body and thus it must be her decision in the end.

So if she wants the baby and the male doesn't want one, it's her body and her choice. That's ok, I guess. So let's say the man isn't ready to be a father, so he leaves the woman. Then when the child's born he's hit for child support. Now it's affecting the man also.

[ramster83]

So if she wants the baby and the male doesn't want one, it's her body and her choice. That's ok, I guess. So let's say the man isn't ready to be a father, so he leaves the woman. Then when the child's born he's hit for child support. Now it's affecting the man also.

Great point brother. I smell a double standard...Grande style.

[Sthenno]

PA, I thought you had understood my point. It is only murder if you believe it to be a life. It is only murder in your opinion.

[hyperactive]

I am not saying the father has no say. Of course he is free to discuss the topic. However, ultimately it is her body so she has to make the final decision on what happens to it.

Edit: while ignoring the fact that it's a decision best made before jumping on beds.

true, but how often do humans think before they act?

In the bigger picture (incl. the full effect on society), if we are to be a "free society", then women need to be free to make decisions regarding their bodies as, their economic health, and their lifestyle.