-Abortion-

[IamsSon]

Since I have been reduced to a cow, I really do not know what to say.

Should I charge my husband for the children I produced for "him" do you think?

I'm sorry BA, I did not intend to make you feel that way, it was in no way my intention.

I was responding to your example. My intent was to show that we cannot simply dismiss an abortion as a parasite on a woman's body. What if that child was going to have the mind to discover the cure for cancer? What if he was going to find an answer to hunger? Or maybe his daughter woul have? Or his granddaughter? I am always surprised that the people who support abortion are also the ones who are so incensed when farmers burn a section of jungle saying what if a plant there had the cure to cancer or if an insect there was the cure to AIDS, but they have no such thoughts or compunctions when it comes to a developing intelligent human life.

[IamsSon]

You'd think Christians would be happy about abortions I mean, surely the innocent go to heaven, right? Well, unless they're jealous and they take their spite out on forcing the kids to live life.

By that logic then I should be handing the next person I see a gun and ask them to shoot me so I can go to Heaven. Or maybe I should kill my kids so they can got o Heaven now and avoid all the trials and tribulations of life. Come on, Kratos, you are smarter than that.

[Bella-Angelique]

Ty, I am glad that you do not think so poorly of women.

[IamsSon]

Ty, I am glad that you do not think so poorly of women.

No way, my wife would kill me if I did.

[Mr Slayer]

Sheeeesus, five pages in a single afternoon!

Of course it's a matter of selfishness. And responsibility.

From a legal perspective, you can't forbid abortion. I can totally understand PA: s argument about a risk for an "abortion spree just because you can", but I disagree it will happen more than it does today if one would to allow it. At least in the First world.

What would happen (in the 3rd world), though, is that those women who choose to remove the fetus would get a chance to do it in a clean hospital with a certified surgeon.

And to butt in on the discussion about fetal life or not;

NOBODY knows if the fetus shows any signs of brain capacity and in what stage of development it becomes sentient. It's merely a spiritual discussion and therefore too fuzzy to fit in a scientific discussion.

Abortion is allowed in what, the 8th week in UK? In Sweden it's the 18th week. Now, even I can admit that a 4 month fetus is on the edge. But who can set the limits?

I'm for abortion but to a certain degree.

[__Kratos__]

By that logic then I should be handing the next person I see a gun and ask them to shoot me so I can go to Heaven. Or maybe I should kill my kids so they can got o Heaven now and avoid all the trials and tribulations of life. Come on, Kratos, you are smarter than that.

Well that's suicide, then you've got murder... Both sins, I believe. So that wouldn't be good trying to get into the kingdom of heaven.

Now if you shot your kids, confessed to it to a priest to repent and then got the death penalty for your crimes... That'd get you into heaven as well as your children.

Though I don't recommend it.

Abortions... Isn't that free will... What we all have under god? What's wrong then? The woman can always go to the church and repent her sins. Jesus is all forgiving no matter who you are and what you did.

[hyperactive]

Iams,

It is a fallacy to play the "what if an aborted child...." card. If humanity were so fragile and fixed as to be dependent on a single human you would have a far greater amount to worry about! Every human is disposable to the system. This is not only true but necessary for it to survive.

Further, do not compare species irradication with something that could be at worst called population control. (Even at that, you see humans happily culling the herds so "what is good for species X is good for the humans)

[IamsSon]

Abortions... Isn't that free will... What we all have under god? What's wrong then? The woman can always go to the church and repent her sins. Jesus is all forgiving no matter who you are and what you did.

Sure, you are free to commit murder, but you will be held accountable for it. You will reap what you sow; that' in the Bible too. I know a guy who is now a Christian, serving a life sentence in a Panamanian prison. He was completely hyped up on coke when he killed his wife. And although his sins are forgiven, he is still paying the penalty for committing murder and he is now conscious of what he did and although he knows he is going to Heaven, he is living with the fact that he killed the woman he loved.

[IamsSon]

Iams,

It is a fallacy to play the "what if an aborted child...." card. If humanity were so fragile and fixed as to be dependent on a single human you would have a far greater amount to worry about! Every human is disposable to the system. This is not only true but necessary for it to survive.

Further, do not compare species irradication with something that could be at worst called population control. (Even at that, you see humans happily culling the herds so "what is good for species X is good for the humans)

It is also a fallacy to play the "what if the child is the result of rape...." card.

The truth is like Ash just admitted, no one knows when life begins, so since we do not know wouldn't the responsible thing be not to destroy what we know will at some unknowable point be human life?

[hyperactive]

why?

we have taken control of our own species (more or less).

that means we no longer have natural population controls.

we have for the history of society exercised our ability to cull ourselves.

we had infanticide before abortion.

Just because something will develop into a human is not a reason to preserve it.

There are many factors: personal choices, social issues, economics, burdens, social burdens, global burdens, etc.

If you have a growth growing in you, you go right ahead and choose if you want it to remain or not. Your choice. Don't make choices for others though.

Would not the responsible thing be for society on a global level to get a handle on the human overpopulation issue?

[Celumnaz]

Marlboro, the prime choice for those concerned with overpopulation. Seatbelt laws, go away. Medication for the elderly at the cost of the young worker is not a friend to those who worry about overpopulation, as I sometimes do.

[Never_Hit_Nirvana]

I am not a Christian, far from it, but abortion is murder. Life is sacred, and like has been said begins with the development of the brain, not with birth. It is ridiculous that there are standards of animal cruelty, but it is legal to kill an unborn human being for reasons that often boil down to simple inconvenience for the mother.

I will not argue with a woman's right to do with her body as she pleases. But that right doesn't include killing.

As far as the rape scenario goes: any woman with a trace of a sense of spiritual balance would have the child, and either raise it well or give it to a family that will, if for no other reason than to cancel out the father.

And as threatening the mother's life, it is her choice to a degree. It is her choice as to who she loves more: herself, ah, blessed selfishness, or her child. That would be the only excuse for an abortion I can imagine: the choice between mother and child, but it is a pretty thin one, even then.

[hyperactive]

well, it is legal to kill animals (selective) for selfish perposes as well. Time to revisit what society really is, isn't it.

As for adoption: it can be difficult to consider adoption because of the many thoughts of "what will happen to ...." that occur which run counter to the instinct to "protect". Abortion is an "easier choice" in some regards (i quote it because i am not suggesting it is easy, just that for some women it is easier to live with the thought of termination than of the "what ifs" of their child out there)

PLEASE DO NOT make it sound like women that have abortions are merely selfish. It is rude to suggest that somebody making such a difficult decision is doing it out of selfishness.

[truethat]

I am not a Christian, far from it, but abortion is murder. Life is sacred, and like has been said begins with the development of the brain, not with birth. It is ridiculous that there are standards of animal cruelty, but it is legal to kill an unborn human being for reasons that often boil down to simple inconvenience for the mother.

I will not argue with a woman's right to do with her body as she pleases. But that right doesn't include killing.

As far as the rape scenario goes: any woman with a trace of a sense of spiritual balance would have the child, and either raise it well or give it to a family that will, if for no other reason than to cancel out the father.

And as threatening the mother's life, it is her choice to a degree. It is her choice as to who she loves more: herself, ah, blessed selfishness, or her child. That would be the only excuse for an abortion I can imagine: the choice between mother and child, but it is a pretty thin one, even then.

Have you ever been raped? Seriously this is a ridiculous statement. A woman who has been raped has all sorts of things running through her mind before she even gets to the idea of the pregnancy.

Second have you ever been pregnant? Pregnancy is loooooooooong when you want to have the child. Its not a walk in the park. Seriously, this is just a very deluded statement to make.

[Never_Hit_Nirvana]

Have you ever been raped? Seriously this is a ridiculous statement. A woman who has been raped has all sorts of things running through her mind before she even gets to the idea of the pregnancy.

Second have you ever been pregnant? Pregnancy is loooooooooong when you want to have the child. Its not a walk in the park. Seriously, this is just a very deluded statement to make.

I am a guy so no to both. But I am a married guy, married to a woman who was raped when she was 16 by the way. I have seen her tears and the nightmares she still has 8 years later. So yeah, I know the pain it can cause.

But you, know, assume I don't know since my info says 'male'.

And thank you for proving my point about selfishness, by the way.

[truethat]

Men have been raped. How very narrow minded of you.

[Never_Hit_Nirvana]

Men have been raped. How very narrow minded of you.

How ignorant of you to miss that any theoretical rape victim in a thread about abortion would obviously be female.

Edited September 22, 2006 by Never_Hit_Nirvana

[truethat]

The question I asked was "have you ever been raped." I didn't mention abortion. Nice try to squeek out of sticking your foot in your mouth.

The question is obviously directed at the mental state of the person raped to suggest if they were "spiritual enough" they would be able to have the child.

I think that's a bit ridiculous to suggest and a bit condeming. I asked if you had been raped to consider the mental state. But obviously even the idea of you being raped has you up in arms and angry. Something you might want to consider before deciding how a person should handle being raped.

[Daughter of the Nine Moons]

I see that this could not remain civil for too long.

Perhaps it would be wise for everybody to step away from the computer go outside get a breath of fresh air and when you come back remember that we require everybody to behave in a civil and adult manner, if not this thread will be closed.

Edited September 22, 2006 by Daughter of the Nine Moons

[Never_Hit_Nirvana]

The question I asked was "have you ever been raped." I didn't mention abortion. Nice try to squeek out of sticking your foot in your mouth.

The question is obviously directed at the mental state of the person raped to suggest if they were "spiritual enough" they would be able to have the child.

I think that's a bit ridiculous to suggest and a bit condeming. I asked if you had been raped to consider the mental state. But obviously even the idea of you being raped has you up in arms and angry. Something you might want to consider before deciding how a person should handle being raped.

No, you trying your typical flame-baiting has me irritated.

And the mental repercussions for rape victims differs with genders. I was assuming you knew that. My mistake.

And back to my statement. If you actually read it and comprehended it, instead of just seeing the words and flying of the the handle, you would see that I said "sense of spiritual balance". This infers a recognition of trials to be overcome, the horrors of rape, the length and struggle of labor. It isn't easy, but the value of canceling out the crime of the father would be worth it.

We won't even get into who is truly narrow-minded, since your questions obviously were made to exclude men from the discussion, since they can't know about how a woman feels when she is raped or pregnant.

[Never_Hit_Nirvana]

PLEASE DO NOT make it sound like women that have abortions are merely selfish. It is rude to suggest that somebody making such a difficult decision is doing it out of selfishness.

I was not attempting to make it sound like all abortion is based in selfishness, but the whole "right to choose" argument is based on selfishness. Some of the pro-abortion arguments typically used by women:

"It is my right to choose."

"It is my body!"

"It is my life the child will alter."

"I'm only 15, I can't have a baby." (But you can have sex?!)

"I don't have time for a kid."

Me, me, me. Abortion isn't the only place this happens. Symptomatic of our society. All I was saying is that most of the arguments use selfish reasoning.

And personally, as half of a couple that can't have kids, my wife was damaged when she was raped (thanks a bunch and @$#% you for making me think of that, true, really made my day), anytime I think of the idea of abortion, I get furious. People flush away a baby my wife and I would both give our very souls to have. Excuse me for thinking of those people as selfish, as the arguments they use, and the action itself, seem so to me.

Edited September 22, 2006 by Never_Hit_Nirvana

[hyperactive]

i think the right to choose is based on the demands of existance within society (which indeed does include some selfishness).

I would encourage you to not use your own situation as a basis for the judgement of others.

Lets step back from this a bit (remove the personal attachement).

In today's society a person is judged on so many things: career success, earnings, friends, neighbourhood, car, contribution to society, and on and on. Women are particularily judged by many if they become pregnant outside of marriage, become pregnant "too young", have a child "in poverty" (poverty being judged by the observer). Each woman who finds herself pregnant has her own questions to address. A level headed person in this situation has to evaluate all the variables that affect her. It can just as easily be argued that "keeping the child" when you know you have no ability to afford the costs of a child is selfish.

For all the arguments against abortion, there is no SOLUTION to the reality that women get pregnant! People are animals, driven by hormones. People make gross errors in calculation and decision making. Should they be condemned for this? NO!

To address your personal view, how can we as individuals justify saying somebody must do something a particular way just because of our own limitations? If we all did this, nobody could do anything. There would be no peanuts, since those with peanut allergies would ban them. There would be sex, because those with sexual disfunction would ban it. There would be no visual entertainment because those that are blind would ban it. There would be no music because those that are deaf would ban it. We can not hold our own suffering, abilities, or inabilities against others and still be able to live together.

[Celumnaz]

I believe in the right to choose, but that comes way before an abortion is necessary, and I believe in living with concequences for your own actions. Some call it responsibility and MOST agree it is lacking in society today.

Edited September 22, 2006 by Celumnaz

[truethat]

How very selfish of you! I am literally shocked which says alot for this message board.

You come on here and make broad statements about women being raped and then have the gall to criticize us for making you think about your wife's rape?

Yet you don't feel bothered at all that you may have made women in here who have been raped feel judged if they had an abortion for not being "spiritual" enough?

You don't know what you are talking about at all. Wow! Rarely have I ever been this shocked by the selfishness in a persons post.

Really, wow.

[Grandpa Greenman]

Back in the "good old days" when abortion was illegal in the States, my bro worked at the county morgue. One day he came home and saw some anti-abortion brochures on the table that had come in the mail. He sat down and told us how every day young women came into the morgue from botched abortions. Making abortion illegal will not stop them from happening it is only deigning women proper medical treatment. Abortion was made legal in the state of Michigan by a vote of the people.

I don't want to see a return to back alley abortions. Women deserve better than that. The decision to abort is not an easy one for a woman to make we should respect her privacy. The man should bow out on this one. It is her body and he should have no control over it, to do otherwise makes the woman a servant. He can always take his sperm some place else.