-Abortion-

[truethat]

i think the right to choose is based on the demands of existance within society (which indeed does include some selfishness).

For all the arguments against abortion, there is no SOLUTION to the reality that women get pregnant!

This is a really excellent point. This is why I believe that abstinence should be promoted to women. Young women especially feel that they are expected to want to have sex. Sex is used to sell pretty much everything these days. Young women should be reminded of the truth. That they are likely to get pregnant if they engange in sex. So abstinence is really the only true saftey net.

The truth is what you wrote.

[Celumnaz]

the back alley abortion argument is weak. I've made a post on it here on these boards somewhere explaining that. Statistically, there is more damage done and more death because of Roe v Wade.

there's an industry attached to abortion that Needs abortions to happen, and more of them. all ethics aside it's strictly business. Yes there is also a social "agenda" angle too.

Easy for people to believe thsoe against Global warming are in the pocket of oil companies than to allow for this reality in the abortion debate.

[IamsSon]

Back in the "good old days" when abortion was illegal in the States, my bro worked at the county morgue. One day he came home and saw some anti-abortion brochures on the table that had come in the mail. He sat down and told us how every day young women came into the morgue from botched abortions. Making abortion illegal will not stop them from happening it is only deigning women proper medical treatment. Abortion was made legal in the state of Michigan by a vote of the people.

I don't want to see a return to back alley abortions. Women deserve better than that. The decision to abort is not an easy one for a woman to make we should respect her privacy. The man should bow out on this one. It is her body and he should have no control over it, to do otherwise makes the woman a servant. He can always take his sperm some place else.

It would have been great if the abortion issue had been approached Constitutionally, through a vote, instead of having it foisted on us through the court system. Additionally, people die doing illegal things all the time, that is not a valid reson for legalizing something. People die every day from taking illegal drugs, does that mean we should legalize them to prevent these deaths?

[Never_Hit_Nirvana]

i think the right to choose is based on the demands of existance within society (which indeed does include some selfishness).

I would encourage you to not use your own situation as a basis for the judgement of others.

Lets step back from this a bit (remove the personal attachement).

In today's society a person is judged on so many things: career success, earnings, friends, neighbourhood, car, contribution to society, and on and on. Women are particularily judged by many if they become pregnant outside of marriage, become pregnant "too young", have a child "in poverty" (poverty being judged by the observer). Each woman who finds herself pregnant has her own questions to address. A level headed person in this situation has to evaluate all the variables that affect her. It can just as easily be argued that "keeping the child" when you know you have no ability to afford the costs of a child is selfish.

For all the arguments against abortion, there is no SOLUTION to the reality that women get pregnant! People are animals, driven by hormones. People make gross errors in calculation and decision making. Should they be condemned for this? NO!

To address your personal view, how can we as individuals justify saying somebody must do something a particular way just because of our own limitations? If we all did this, nobody could do anything. There would be no peanuts, since those with peanut allergies would ban them. There would be sex, because those with sexual disfunction would ban it. There would be no visual entertainment because those that are blind would ban it. There would be no music because those that are deaf would ban it. We can not hold our own suffering, abilities, or inabilities against others and still be able to live together.

1) I was anti-abortion before I met my wife, for the selfishness I see in the act and the decision. Since meeting my wife, the idea of a dead child hurts more, taking the issue from the theoretical realm, to an issue close to my heart. I don't expect people to live by my situation. I stated a personal fact so that y'all could understand any fire I may bring to this discussion.

2) Never claimed a mother had to keep a child, just give it a chance to live. Adoption is a viable option.

3) And basing your decision on what others may think of you is selfish in the extreme. To kill a child because the people at your church will condemn you, for an example I have actually seen with my own eyes, is sick and sad beyond belief.

4) Yes, people should be held accountable for their errors in calculation and decision making. It is called taking responsibility for one's actions. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

5) There is a solution for women getting pregnant. It is called birth control, self-control, or a condom. If none of those are available, then don't get naked unless you feel like gambling on the pitter-patter of little feet. It is called being an adult an realizing the consequences of your actions.

[Right-Hand_of_God]

I can never understand why people always fight over abortion. Its not like theres any truth to religion. People die everyday, society needs to keep out of people personal affairs. This isn't ancient times where religion was created to keep humanity in check. We need stem cell research and cloning to move foward into the future. I'd rather have millions of abortions then have: unwanted kids, no money, more ignorent youth, and over population. I mean come on you don't call a egg a chicken, you call it a egg. A chicken is what come out of the egg but if the egg is broken its not a chicken its a broken egg. I don't see people caring when baby lions are killed by other animals. You know why, because thats life deal with it. This ain't slave days don't tell me what I can and can't do with my life. THe governerment does enough of that. So if you don't care for abortion, good for you. Go sit in the corner with your thumb up your ass crying while I live a full life not giving a *** about other peoples problems. I got my own..

[Never_Hit_Nirvana]

How very selfish of you! I am literally shocked which says alot for this message board.

You come on here and make broad statements about women being raped and then have the gall to criticize us for making you think about your wife's rape?

Yet you don't feel bothered at all that you may have made women in here who have been raped feel judged if they had an abortion for not being "spiritual" enough?

You don't know what you are talking about at all. Wow! Rarely have I ever been this shocked by the selfishness in a persons post.

Really, wow.

You really are pathetic.

I didn't criticize the board. I criticized you and your idiot habit of flame-baiting. There was no call, other than flame baiting, for you to ask those questions, as my info clearly says: "male" and I would obviously have no experience with being raped as a woman or with being pregnant.

And as far as any women I may have offended: if I made them think more deeply on a decision they may have made, then good. If I upset them, I am sorry, but those are my views on abortion and the world in general. Much can be gained even from suffering and good can come of it, but I guess wanting more good in the world is just selfish. I was attempting to point that out, but some people just habitually react instead of reading.

Edited September 22, 2006 by Never_Hit_Nirvana

[IamsSon]

You really are pathetic.

I didn't criticize the board. I criticized you and your idiot habit of flame-baiting. There was no call, other than flame baiting, for you to ask those questions, as my info clearly says: "male" and I would obviously have no experience with being raped as a woman or with being pregnant.

And as far as any women I may have offended: if I made them think more deeply on a decision they may have made, then good. If I upset them, I am sorry, but those are my views on abortion and the world in general. Much can be gained even from suffering and good can come of it, but I guess wanting more good in the world is just selfish. I was attempting to point that out, but some people just habitually react instead of reading.

Oh, I get it, as long as you say it, it's not hypocricy or self-righteousness, it's only if us lesser humans do so. Please forgive me for not understanding that earlier.

[truethat]

And personally, as half of a couple that can't have kids, my wife was damaged when she was raped (thanks a bunch and @$#% you for making me think of that, true, really made my day), anytime I think of the idea of abortion, I get furious. People flush away a baby my wife and I would both give our very souls to have. Excuse me for thinking of those people as selfish, as the arguments they use, and the action itself, seem so to me.

Oh oops if I made you think more deeply on a decision you may have made, then good. If I upset you, I am sorry but those are my views on the world in general.

And as far as any women I may have offended: if I made them think more deeply on a decision they may have made, then good. If I upset them, I am sorry, but those are my views on abortion and the world in general. Much can be gained even from suffering and good can come of it, but I guess wanting more good in the world is just selfish. I was attempting to point that out, but some people just habitually react instead of reading

Wow an out and out hypocrite!

I asked you if you had been raped or had been pregnant. Now men can be raped. And men can be part of a couple that is pregnant enough to realize how loooooooooong a pregnancy is.

Seems I may have touched on a hot issue for you since rape and NOT having a pregnancy are part of your life in a bitter way.

You might want to consider the hatred you are projecting on others for your jealousy of their ability to have children before you post such reactive statements.

My quesions were completely innocent. It is your mind that is doing the baiting.

[MadMachine]

I am 100% pro-abortion. If an unborn child is really unwanted, or would surely die soon after birth anyway, there's no good excuse for making a woman go through all of that pain, and the permanent(?) change to her body.

[Never_Hit_Nirvana]

Oh, I get it, as long as you say it, it's not hypocricy or self-righteousness, it's only if us lesser humans do so. Please forgive me for not understanding that earlier.

Who have I said is lesser?

No one.

People may be selfish, sad, stupid, Christian, pagan, neurotic, depressed, religious nuts and hypocrites, Iam, but they are all people and thus equal. Their lives are just as valuable as the life of an unborn fetus, or the life a genius that may cure cancer. They may look at the world differently, rationalize actions that are in truth selfish, or be creatures of total logic, it doesn't matter, they are equal.

I am no better than them. I may have a different set of views than they do, but I cannot look down on them for not living by my standards.

But can I pity them? Yes. Christians and feminists are the usual subjects of my pity. But I don't think I am freeman to their slave, like some do.

[Never_Hit_Nirvana]

Oh oops if I made you think more deeply on a decision you may have made, then good. If I upset you, I am sorry but those are my views on the world in general.

Wow an out and out hypocrite!

I asked you if you had been raped or had been pregnant. Now men can be raped. And men can be part of a couple that is pregnant enough to realize how loooooooooong a pregnancy is.

Seems I may have touched on a hot issue for you since rape and NOT having a pregnancy are part of your life in a bitter way.

You might want to consider the hatred you are projecting on others for your jealousy of their ability to have children before you post such reactive statements.

My quesions were completely innocent. It is your mind that is doing the baiting.

No, you have a habit of baiting. The board has seen it.

I am not jealous of people that can have kids. I knew about my wife before the wedding and married her anyway. I made my decision, I can live with it because I love my wife. There is no bitterness, just a sadness. And I ended no life in marrying my wife. The situations are different, and thus there can be no hypocrisy.

Some people really need to learn the definition of that word.

And I repeat: male and female psychological reactions to being raped are different. Thus I could have no concept, other than what I have seen from my wife, of the subject. To blatantly ask such a question of a male is to bait him.

Nice attempt at wriggling though.

Edited September 22, 2006 by Never_Hit_Nirvana

[hyperactive]

1) I was anti-abortion before I met my wife, for the selfishness I see in the act and the decision. Since meeting my wife, the idea of a dead child hurts more, taking the issue from the theoretical realm, to an issue close to my heart. I don't expect people to live by my situation. I stated a personal fact so that y'all could understand any fire I may bring to this discussion.

2) Never claimed a mother had to keep a child, just give it a chance to live. Adoption is a viable option.

3) And basing your decision on what others may think of you is selfish in the extreme. To kill a child because the people at your church will condemn you, for an example I have actually seen with my own eyes, is sick and sad beyond belief.

4) Yes, people should be held accountable for their errors in calculation and decision making. It is called taking responsibility for one's actions. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

5) There is a solution for women getting pregnant. It is called birth control, self-control, or a condom. If none of those are available, then don't get naked unless you feel like gambling on the pitter-patter of little feet. It is called being an adult an realizing the consequences of your actions.

but selfishness is a matter of perspective.

- like i said before, having children (when one is not able to afford to raise them) can be considered selfish. Even having children when you can afford them can be considered selfish depending on the motivations of the people involved.

- see my comment on the difficulty in deciding abortion vs adoption.

- is basing your decision on how others will treat you selfish? perhaps it is, but the reality is that when one lives in a society they suffer the effects of judgement and most will choose to not take a difficult path just to be a martyr of sorts unless it is something they deeply beleive in. Since we are discussing women that consider or choose abortion it is clear for these women having a child (at that particular time) is not something they deeply believe in.

- ahh... the old hardball "don't do the crime if you can't do the time". If that is the case nobody should be allowed leniency on anything. We will teach them who the boss is when they do that hard time! indeed. That position has proven itself invalid in just about every situation it has been applied to.

- and what of the birth control that fails? what of the women that would be putting their own lives at risk by taking birth control? People do recognize the consequences of their actions and usually try to take action to address the consequences to best fit their needs. Is that selfish? You can call it that, but in the end in today's societies each person is responsible for his/her self so you should applaud people for taking the responsibility to make difficult decisions in their lives to best meet their conditions.

[GIDEON MAGE]

What I don't understand is why anti-abortion nutcakes (mostly members of a religion we are not allowed to criticize on this board) don't simply promote easier adoption laws instead of bombing abortion clinics. I think every born-again type should prove how "pro-life" they are by adopting a baby of a rape victim; otherwise, shut your proselytizing pie-eating hole, period.

[IamsSon]

Who have I said is lesser?

No one.

People may be selfish, sad, stupid, Christian, pagan, neurotic, depressed, religious nuts and hypocrites, Iam, but they are all people and thus equal. Their lives are just as valuable as the life of an unborn fetus, or the life a genius that may cure cancer. They may look at the world differently, rationalize actions that are in truth selfish, or be creatures of total logic, it doesn't matter, they are equal.

I am no better than them. I may have a different set of views than they do, but I cannot look down on them for not living by my standards.

But can I pity them? Yes. Christians and feminists are the usual subjects of my pity. But I don't think I am freeman to their slave, like some do.

I apologize again NVN, I was being just a bit fascetious (fa·ce·tious adj. Playfully jocular; humorous: facetious remarks.), I should have been more clear spoken, I should have realized it would be too much to grasp (by the way that is also just a bit of exaggeration).

By the way thanks for your pity, I really need it.

[+Sherapy]

but selfishness is a matter of perspective.

- like i said before, having children (when one is not able to afford to raise them) can be considered selfish. Even having children when you can afford them can be considered selfish depending on the motivations of the people involved.

- see my comment on the difficulty in deciding abortion vs adoption.

- is basing your decision on how others will treat you selfish? perhaps it is, but the reality is that when one lives in a society they suffer the effects of judgement and most will choose to not take a difficult path just to be a martyr of sorts unless it is something they deeply beleive in. Since we are discussing women that consider or choose abortion it is clear for these women having a child (at that particular time) is not something they deeply believe in.

- ahh... the old hardball "don't do the crime if you can't do the time". If that is the case nobody should be allowed leniency on anything. We will teach them who the boss is when they do that hard time! indeed. That position has proven itself invalid in just about every situation it has been applied to.

- and what of the birth control that fails? what of the women that would be putting their own lives at risk by taking birth control? People do recognize the consequences of their actions and usually try to take action to address the consequences to best fit their needs. Is that selfish? You can call it that, but in the end in today's societies each person is responsible for his/her self so you should applaud people for taking the responsibility to make difficult decisions in their lives to best meet their conditions.

I agree with that hyper, this is not anyones decision but the one making it....it is for the woman to decide and she has to live with it...to make a decison of this magnitude takes incredible maturity, one often does this for the betterment of the child too....

[truethat]

No, you have a habit of baiting. The board has seen it.

I am not jealous of people that can have kids. I knew about my wife before the wedding and married her anyway. I made my decision, I can live with it because I love my wife. There is no bitterness, just a sadness. And I ended no life in marrying my wife. The situations are different, and thus there can be no hypocrisy.

Some people really need to learn the definition of that word.

And I repeat: male and female psychological reactions to being raped are different. Thus I could have no concept, other than what I have seen from my wife, of the subject. To blatantly ask such a question of a male is to bait him.

Nice attempt at wriggling though.

No it is not to bait him. My point was to ask you if you understand all of the ramifications psychological and physical that go on after a rape. For you to suggest that being spiritual enough would( at a time when a woman has been extremely violated),cause a woman to have the baby "anyway" is really weird to me.

I asked you if you had ever been raped because perhaps you are speaking from your own personal experience. And it seems that I was not far off the mark, your wife's rape is obviously very much on your mind. So perhaps you are making your experience the point from which you gague all other experiences. That is not a fair thing to do. It is unfair to create your own personal standard of what you can deal with and how you cope and to place it as the measure of others.

You seem to have a great deal of self righteousness regarding this issue. I suggest you go back and look at YOUR post in reply to mine and you will see that you overreacted. I didn't bait you. You baited yourself.

And for the record, no one has ever accused me of baiting them before.

[Never_Hit_Nirvana]

What I don't understand is why anti-abortion nutcakes (mostly members of a religion we are not allowed to criticize on this board) don't simply promote easier adoption laws instead of bombing abortion clinics. I think every born-again type should prove how "pro-life" they are by adopting a baby of a rape victim; otherwise, shut your proselytizing pie-eating hole, period.

The bombings are ridiculous and easier adoption laws are a good idea.

And I'm not born-again but I would adopt in a heartbeat.

[hyperactive]

The bombings are ridiculous and easier adoption laws are a good idea.

And I'm not born-again but I would adopt in a heartbeat.

on consistancy.

I can never stomach the people that fight so hard to end abortion but are of the mindset that once the child is born it is on its own.

[IamsSon]

What I don't understand is why anti-abortion nutcakes (mostly members of a religion we are not allowed to criticize on this board) don't simply promote easier adoption laws instead of bombing abortion clinics. I think every born-again type should prove how "pro-life" they are by adopting a baby of a rape victim; otherwise, shut your proselytizing pie-eating hole, period.

You may want to pick up a newer U.S. News. There haven't been any abortion clinic bombings in years.

[Never_Hit_Nirvana]

but selfishness is a matter of perspective.

- like i said before, having children (when one is not able to afford to raise them) can be considered selfish. Even having children when you can afford them can be considered selfish depending on the motivations of the people involved.

- see my comment on the difficulty in deciding abortion vs adoption.

- is basing your decision on how others will treat you selfish? perhaps it is, but the reality is that when one lives in a society they suffer the effects of judgement and most will choose to not take a difficult path just to be a martyr of sorts unless it is something they deeply beleive in. Since we are discussing women that consider or choose abortion it is clear for these women having a child (at that particular time) is not something they deeply believe in.

- ahh... the old hardball "don't do the crime if you can't do the time". If that is the case nobody should be allowed leniency on anything. We will teach them who the boss is when they do that hard time! indeed. That position has proven itself invalid in just about every situation it has been applied to.

- and what of the birth control that fails? what of the women that would be putting their own lives at risk by taking birth control? People do recognize the consequences of their actions and usually try to take action to address the consequences to best fit their needs. Is that selfish? You can call it that, but in the end in today's societies each person is responsible for his/her self so you should applaud people for taking the responsibility to make difficult decisions in their lives to best meet their conditions.

No, because they killed to do it.

I understand the decision is hard, but it is not understandable as there are other options. When one's chef concern is their own life, and own public image, then it is selfish. I realize that we must all fit in society, but to put society's opinion over the life of a child is just wrong. But our society is pretty sick anyway.

And I wasn't being hard-line with "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time." I was using one of my fat, old Mother's favorite ways of saying "don't do something unless you fully recognize the consequences of it." Prison cures nothing. That's apparent.

[kimberly4748]

Alright.

Yesterday, I read through my Amnesty International newspaper I'm receiving four times a year. When I came to the discussion pages there were two distinct comments there.

Two Roman Catholic Christians were encouraging others to leave Amnesty since the organization stated it was positive to the right for free abortion, something that apparently clashed with the two Christians' beliefs.

They were saying people always forget about the rights of the unborn child and that there should be more responsibility demanded from the parents.

I'm wondering now, what happens if there are no "parents", but only a rapist and a victim? Thousands of women are killed together with their children because they had an extramarital child, rape or not.

Let's for a second assume that the unborn one is actually a biological life (I'm a biologist, I can argue against this for hours if you want).

An abortion would save the mother's life, no abortion often claims both lives. How do Christians justify that?

And what about the talk of responsibility? In the Third World, there can be no such responsibility, since many missionaries and Christian branches are against contraceptives!

I personally do have a friend who was raped. Yes, she did get pregnant. Did she keep the child? Yes she did. Does she love her child? Yes, she does with all of her heart. Does she treat her child different from her other children? No she does not!!

I do have two friends who have had abortions. What they express to me is sometime they wish they had not aborted the pregnancy. Why you might ask? Well, what they have told me is they feel like something is missing in their lives. They feel that it is the child that they aborted. Each one of my friends remember the abortion day and consider it the child’s birthday. So in the lives of three women they made a choice and it was theirs to make. Only they can live with their decision. Really I think it is up to the person. Sure some might go on through life with no problems. There are some who regret the decision they made. Some might think it’s a horrible thing to keep a child after being raped. Really, it is all up to who you ask. Personally, I think it is horrible to say that having a child because of being raped destroys mother and child. Only someone like my friend has the right to make a statement like that and she would not. She would defend her child to the death. I think she is a very strong woman.

Edited September 22, 2006 by kimberly4748

[Never_Hit_Nirvana]

No it is not to bait him. My point was to ask you if you understand all of the ramifications psychological and physical that go on after a rape. For you to suggest that being spiritual enough would( at a time when a woman has been extremely violated),cause a woman to have the baby "anyway" is really weird to me.

I asked you if you had ever been raped because perhaps you are speaking from your own personal experience. And it seems that I was not far off the mark, your wife's rape is obviously very much on your mind. So perhaps you are making your experience the point from which you gague all other experiences. That is not a fair thing to do. It is unfair to create your own personal standard of what you can deal with and how you cope and to place it as the measure of others.

You seem to have a great deal of self righteousness regarding this issue. I suggest you go back and look at YOUR post in reply to mine and you will see that you overreacted. I didn't bait you. You baited yourself.

And for the record, no one has ever accused me of baiting them before.

Ok, I'll grant that you didn't intend to bait me. Other than this thread you seem to be a decent human being. Sorry for the repeated accusation.

And what I was saying wayyyyy, wayyyy back there was that a woman would abort a child conceived by rape out of desire to end her pain, what I see as a weakness. But my daily symbol of a strong woman is a half crazed Cajun girl, so my idea of strength might have set the bar too high. To me, the higher goal would be to have the child and raise it to balance the sins of the father out.

I expect more out of people than just acting to end pain, I apologize if that comes off as being self-righteous. I want to see humanity, despite how many times I have watched them fail, aim for something higher than their own needs. My argument is usually with people's methods.

Or put more clearly by my poli-sci prof, speaking about me to another student, and pardon the immodesty: "He has the biggest heart I have ever seen, but dammit, why does he always half to lean to the right?"

[Grandpa Greenman]

It would have been great if the abortion issue had been approached Constitutionally, through a vote, instead of having it foisted on us through the court system. Additionally, people die doing illegal things all the time, that is not a valid reson for legalizing something. People die every day from taking illegal drugs, does that mean we should legalize them to prevent these deaths?

Like I said Michigan voted to make abortion legal. I think if came to a vote again it would come out the same.

Constitutionally a woman has the right to control what happens to her body. You know, it could go the other way. In China women are forced to have abortions. When you let the state have a say in your procreation you run the risk of it not going you way. If the state can say you can't have abortions, it can turn around later and say you must have an abortion. Do we really want to create that kind of precedent? It is price of freedom that you can’t ways agree with a law, sometimes it is necessary for the protection of individual rights. The courts are there to protect the individual. Civil rights laws were put in place by the courts. If it would have been left to a vote by the people we would still have jim-crow laws in the south.

[truethat]

5) There is a solution for women getting pregnant. It is called birth control, self-control, or a condom. If none of those are available, then don't get naked unless you feel like gambling on the pitter-patter of little feet. It is called being an adult an realizing the consequences of your actions.

I agree with this except for the condom bit. Condoms have been there far too many times for a woman to ever rely on them not to get pregnant. My sugestion is that if women want this right then they need to treat it with the UTMOST of respect and do their complete best never to be in such a situation.

[kimberly4748]

I agree with this except for the condom bit. Condoms have been there far too many times for a woman to ever rely on them not to get pregnant. My sugestion is that if women want this right then they need to treat it with the UTMOST of respect and do their complete best never to be in such a situation.

I totally agree!!!!!!