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-Abortion-


Mr Slayer
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So just to quickly ask a question, when does "cell development" become a human being?

If individual cells, or cell clusters, are equal in status to an entire, fully formed human, then you had better start holding funeral services everytime you cut yourself shaving. And dispose of bloody bandages with the same reverence you hold for a corpse, no?

Just to pursue a point....

What about liposuction? Breast reduction procedures? Tumor removals? Tubal ligations and Vasectomies?

These cells have 'human potential" as well, if we assume that each cell is as important as the whole, no? If each egg and sperm equals 'human life', shouldn't tubal ligations and vasectomies also be illegal? What about m********ion? For males, that is the equivilent of "killing" a couple of million "people" at a shot.

Edited by JMPD1
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Posted (IP: Staff) · (edited)

Gideon, the waiting list for people to adopt is long. There's no shortage of people wishing to adopt. The shortage is on the other end of things. One more person on the waiting list to adopt won't help. Change needs to happen the other way.

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." - Jeremiah 1:5........... What were you saying about Jewish belief?

If individual cells, or cell clusters, are equal in status to an entire, fully formed human, then you had better start holding funeral services everytime you cut yourself shaving. And dispose of bloody bandages with the same reverence you hold for a corpse, no?

But then again, my shaving cut if left on its own isn't going to form into a living breathing being :P Edited by Paranoid Android
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"before you were formed in the womb"

Even the bible acknowleges the transitional phase and that human life is not marked as beginning with conception.

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But then again, my shaving cut if left on its own isn't going to form into a living breathing being :P

neither is a 3 day old fetus..........

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Gideon, the waiting list for people to adopt is long. There's no shortage of people wishing to adopt. The shortage is on the other end of things. One more person on the waiting list to adopt won't help. Change needs to happen the other way.

Great. Exactly my point. I have not heard of a single conservative movement to make adoption easier. It cost thousands of dollars, actually more than to have a baby, to adopt. If the anti-abortion people really cared about the babies involved, they would be pushing to liberalize adoption, and signing up for it. You won't see this, because all they care about it shoving their religion down other's throats.

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." - Jeremiah 1:5........... What were you saying about Jewish belief?

This passage is speaking about the person's Neshamah, not the physical body. The Neshamah (immortal soul) doesn't join to the body until 30 days after birth. The Neshamah goes to She'ol between incarnations, and definitely YHVH'S presence is in She'ol, according to Isaiah and Psalms. "If I go to to She'ol, You are there." Reincarnation. God teaches about it in the Tanach and the n.t. It's a concept.

But then again, my shaving cut if left on its own isn't going to form into a living breathing being.

But semen can, kind of negating artificial insemination, in vitro, etc.

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Great. Exactly my point. I have not heard of a single conservative movement to make adoption easier. It cost thousands of dollars, actually more than to have a baby, to adopt.

I have wondered if this has contributed to some of these women loosing their minds and attacking other women to steal their children.

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>ppsssst!< Suicide isn't against the law. Attempted suicides are taken to hospital, not jail. ;)

And you haven't answered my question:

How does a woman in Idaho, choosing an abortion affect YOU?

The same way that a despot in Africa killing innocent villagers affects me JMPD. A crime against innocents is being committed, if it doesn't affect us all then we are no better than the criminal.

Edited by IamsSon
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so you have no problem imposing your views on others?

Is that not a crime against the freedom of others?

What other things do you feel you have the moral right to dictate to others?

Piercings? tatoos? smoking? homosexuality? interracial marriages?

Edited by JMPD1
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"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." - Jeremiah 1:5........... What were you saying about Jewish belief?

But then again, my shaving cut if left on its own isn't going to form into a living breathing being :P

Of this generation it will be written, that they cried, "Save the Whales" while they were exterminating their own unborn species.

user posted image

Edited by Raptor Witness
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so you have no problem imposing your views on others?

Is that not a crime against the freedom of others?

What other things do you feel you have the moral right to dictate to others?

Piercings? tatoos? smoking? homosexuality? interracial marriages?

1. Eating asparagus (I hate it)

2. Watching Battle Star Galactica (It's the best show ever)

3. Wearing white after Labor Day (apparently it's gauche)

4. Listening to Disco (That is just waaay bad)

5. Everyone should become a Texan (Purely personal preference)

Edited by IamsSon
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Let’s say for arguments sake you are a woman how would giving you the right to make your own choice imposing my beliefs. In my personal beliefs all life is sacred and if I were a woman an abortion would be against my religion. I am not pro-abortion I am pro-choice.

It is also against my beliefs to impose them on another person, which means I must give women free choice. Since it is the woman who is most affected by pregnancy her rights must override your beliefs. Sorry but that is the way I see it.

The judgment of Roe vs. Wade was not about pro-abortion it was about the right to choose. It actually gave women dominion over their bodies, something they didn't have before. If it is against your beliefs don't have one.

Remember what said, a government that can ban abortion can mandate it too. Things change, our country could be thrust in a situation were the population is so great that the government would impose population control. If they have the power to ban abortion, they can turn it around and say they have the power to impose it, be careful what you wish for.

One could argue that the child is deprived of its right to choose - the right to choose life.

Yeah, I know you weren't asking me, but I just thought I'd put in a suggestion

PA, in the States children have no rights until 18. The State can do what they want with them, you can’t, but the State can. That is why the state can take children out of the home for their protection.

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darkwind,

there is a basic saying that goes something like "don't ask somebody to do something you would not be willing to do".

Unfortunately, not everybody has the same range of actions which they are willing to exercise.

This means that for somebody such as you or yourself, saying "if I were in that situation i would want to choose for myself, thus the most I can place on another is that choice" but for somebody of a more restrictive mindset on the issue that would never consider abortion, they then tend to force this on others.

If we allow ourselves as a society to be run by the basic rule above, we end up with a society not able to do anything for we become restricted to the LCD.

Again, I agree with you in your response to PA. The government can do whatever it wants to the individual. This is the power it has granted itself.

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I seriously believe that, if I were a woman, I couldn't go through with an abortion. Since I am n9ot a woman I will never know. However, if a woman wants to or, God forbid, needs to for health reasons or after rape especially, we shouldn't be able to stop her.

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Right Hyper,

It is the State that grants us our rights and it is the State that can take them away for good or ill. :hmm:

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Posted (IP: Staff) ·

This passage is speaking about the person's Neshamah, not the physical body. The Neshamah (immortal soul) doesn't join to the body until 30 days after birth. The Neshamah goes to She'ol between incarnations, and definitely YHVH'S presence is in She'ol, according to Isaiah and Psalms. "If I go to to She'ol, You are there." Reincarnation. God teaches about it in the Tanach and the n.t. It's a concept.

Fair enough. It's a valid way of looking at it. I still think the human body is sacred also, but I can see how you arrive at your conclusion :tu:

That aside, as you know, I'm against abortion. But I won't interfere with anyone's choice to have an abortion. I'm not pro-choice. But I'm not anti-choice either, if that makes any sense :blink:

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The father has no say. I think what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

You look at the HUGE double standard in abortion and its wrong.

Ex. A woman says its my body and my right. I don't want to have the child.

If the man wants to have the child then tough, he's not allowed any rights.

But

A woman gets pregnant after a careless one night stand and decides to keep the baby because she doesn't want to have an abortion.

The man says "I don't want to have the baby. I am not ready for the responsibility"

Society says "Tough sh** you have to pay for this child for the next 18 years"

I say men should be able to wave parental responsibility if he states right off the bat that he doesn't want to have the child. Let him sign a document and there ya go.

I don't understand why a woman can give her child up for adoption and thus give up her parental rights and responsibility but a man can not do the same thing when the woman keeps the baby.

Its your body, your right, well then its your responsibility too sweetie.

I agree, and the double standards are horrible. Like when my ex and I found out that she was pregnent.. I was so happy that I was a father. I looked at it that I was a father from that very moment of knowing. My ex though was more fearful and was not so sure about it.. and well basically.. I'm glad she was living with me and was not living at home with her parents. I remember knowing that I had no rights at all and that it was all up to her to choose to keep my son or not. And that felt very wrong hey because I really wanted to be a father and I kinda had to boost her confidence to do so. Anotherwords it was like her first reaction was one of 'should we keep it' which only kinda came out of a state of fear.

So yeah I really think its not very nice knowing that because its not my body I have no choice(only her)while its my creation.. apart of me living inside..). :blink:

In the end though... I just think its a sad thing when people dont love their creations out of fear. I agree in people having the choice to abort but I think its pretty sad because you might miss your 'child' later in life. But then again you might not.. so its fine if you are happy with your choice.

I just think fathers should be allowed to have more say in the matter. If my ex had wanted and gotten an abortion I wouldve felt cheated and helpless, which isnt fair really imo.

Edited by Kazahel
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having a baby/children is horrible and it takes more work/dedication than anything else I can imagine. I wouldnt subject anyone to parenthood/childbirth who wasnt prepared/willing, doing so would be more than cruel. I think having a baby can be more tragic than aborting one.

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It is also a fallacy to play the "what if the child is the result of rape...." card.

!IamSon please! As long as Rape exist, as long as it can be and is a reality, it's not a card being pulled as the excuse to abort.

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Hey, to all the pro-abortionists. Lets all just free the people who are in jail that killed unborn children. They didnt commit any offence, right? I mean, the babies were unborn. So it was perfectly legal.

I think abortion is wrong. And I hate it when the rape and gender cards are thrown out in the open like that.

"I was raped, I absolutely MUST get rid of this damn thing, think about what it'll do to my figure. I also heard the make your hair and nails brittle. Icky! And my finances? Im not gonna waste them on this parasitic abomination in my stomach! I have prada thats waitin for me at the mall! Abortion center?! Screw the nice couple wanting to experience the joy of having a child. Thats THIER problem, not mine!"

or how about...

"Your a MAN. M-A-N. Yanno what that means? YOU, my good sir, have no say in what I do. Its my body, not yours. My choice and my choice only if I want to keep this baby. Think about how you'd feel if I made ALL of your decisions as well? by the way, you better not be drinkin or hangin around your friends today, you must be back by 5:00pm, And dont try to eat anything while Im gone, or else!"

Thats not all. To everyone who says "Oh, its just ONE unborn human." No, its far more than one. You'd have to put into account all of the children that that fetus MIGHT have had whilst alive. We're talkin 100's, if not, 1,000's of humans from 1 dead child. Hell, by yor logic, why not just kill everyone that has been reduced to "vegetable" status in hospitals. They're pratically the same as a fetus, only fully developed. They can't exactly do much to contribute to society, they can hardly feel, hell, they might not even give a damn about anything. So lets get rid of them too.

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Hey, to all the pro-abortionists. Lets all just free the people who are in jail that killed unborn children. They didnt commit any offence, right? I mean, the babies were unborn. So it was perfectly legal.

What are you talking about?

I think abortion is wrong. And I hate it when the rape and gender cards are thrown out in the open like that.

Well, sadly, such aspects must be involved in the abortion-discussion.

"I was raped, I absolutely MUST get rid of this damn thing, think about what it'll do to my figure. I also heard the make your hair and nails brittle. Icky! And my finances? Im not gonna waste them on this parasitic abomination in my stomach! I have prada thats waitin for me at the mall! Abortion center?! Screw the nice couple wanting to experience the joy of having a child. Thats THIER problem, not mine!"

So what you are saying adoption should be an option for abortion?

Thats not all. To everyone who says "Oh, its just ONE unborn human." No, its far more than one. You'd have to put into account all of the children that that fetus MIGHT have had whilst alive. We're talkin 100's, if not, 1,000's of humans from 1 dead child. Hell, by yor logic, why not just kill everyone that has been reduced to "vegetable" status in hospitals. They're pratically the same as a fetus, only fully developed. They can't exactly do much to contribute to society, they can hardly feel, hell, they might not even give a damn about anything. So lets get rid of them too.

Yes, to pull the life support for those people diagnosed "brain dead" is the single most humane thing to do. I know at leat I would not want to "live" that way.

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Yes, to pull the life support for those people diagnosed "brain dead" is the single most humane thing to do. I know at leat I would not want to "live" that way.

Who would? You'd have nothing to live for, no hope of recovery, nothing to do but sit there for years until your natural plug is pulled anyway. That's no kind of life.

Oh, and Arbiter, I never thought anyone would imply that rape victims were selfish. That's just wrong.

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Oh, and Arbiter, I never thought anyone would imply that rape victims were selfish. That's just wrong.

Did it come off sounding that way? I gotta work on my grammar then. I didnt mean ALL. Just what I've witnissed, and I was thouroughly disgusted that someone would think that way. Granted, not every word is exact, but its the same basic idea. Again, sorry for any confusion, the last thing I would ever want to do is say a rape victim is at fault. One of my cousins just happens to be a rape victim btw. In my measly 15 years of life, Ive seen some crazy sh**. Don't write me off as someone who stereotyopes and points fingers.

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Just had to jump in here...

For the record, I am 99% pro-life. I say 99% because the ONLY time I think abortion should be allowed is when the mother will definately die, that is the only time I think it should be her choice.

A lot of people on here keep saying that it "my life, so it's my choice". Well, when it's something that only concerns you, then yes, it's your choice, but this affects, and terminates, another life, and no one should be able to use murder as a viable option.

Before anyone argues, yes, it is murder. If I were pregnant, and someone killed me and my baby, they would be charged with 2 counts of murder, because my baby would be considered a life. Strange how the same laws don't apply to women having abortions though. :rolleyes:

I'm really tired of hearing the rape thing also. Do women get pregnant from rape? Occasionally.(there were only 2 mentions of it in this thread) But it doesn't happen all that often. One reason is they give rape victims the morning after pill, another is most rapists use condoms, since they don't want to be caught, all the DNA evidence and stuff...

I also think men should have a say, since it is part of them, and they helped create it. If they want to, and are able to finacially care for the baby, they should be allowed to.

Oh, just so everyone knows, I am a female *gasp* and I'm not religious *gasp, shock, and amazement* I'm actually agnostic :yes:

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I have just spit on my moniter screen. As it no doubt contained cells capable of becoming an entire human being under the correct circumstances consider me to have just committed murder.

Come get me. :devil:

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