War Signals

[Pinky Floyd]

Very true, Stardive. Unless we are talking abour Islam and muslims. Then we can bash as much we want. That is sick.

Neither religion is giving the other alot of respect at the moment. Islamic clerics calling for either the Popes head or his conversion, Saudi Arabia regularly burns Bibles, and many Islamic countries have the death penalty for converting from Islam to Christianity.

Both religions have bloody historys. Right now it's Islam that has identity problems and the modern, tolerant Muslim needs to clean up a segment of Islam (wahabi) that does allow violence. That's not bashing, that's the truth.

Edited September 24, 2006 by Pinky Floyd

[odas]

Neither religion is giving the other alot of respect at the moment. Islamic clerics calling for either the Popes head or his conversion, Saudi Arabia regularly burns Bibles, and many Islamic countries have the death penalty for converting from Islam to Christianity.

[i]Both religions have bloody historys. Right now it's Islam that has identity problems and the modern, tolerant Muslim needs to clean up a segment of Islam (wahabi) that does allow violence. That's not bashing, that's the truth.[/i]

Very true Pinky. In one of my first posts in UM I stated that Islam is in a crisis and that we need help from friends. The same second I was slammed by ppl like go to hell, Islam is killing and so on.

We need help to get rid of extremists, to prevent people like Ahmedinjead to if not to start then to contribute to a world war.

But critizising Islam will not help. Calling the war on terrorism Christianity angainst Islam will not help.

I do not disagree with some facts about Islam that are not very popular, but and a big one BUT, if ppl continue to bash on Islam only because it is Islam then we will have instead a million extremists over a billion extremists.

In a way it is also up to the West what they want. Peace with Islam and together against terrorism or war with Islam and see ya world, was nice to be around.

I still have hope that it will not come to that. I do believe honest Christians, Moslems and Jews will not allow that.

Cinders, I hope you son in law will soon come safe home. If he is a good soul like you, God will not let anything bad happend to him.

Peace to all of us.

[War-Junkie]

i dont know why everyone is all nuts saying if we dont kill everyone else than we will get killed. if we all just sit down and chill we could avoid any stupid things here. the thing that puzzles me is that y do most of the world leaders have to be stubborn as hell like bush went from saying that were going to kill osama then out of no where go to iraq saying they have WMDs then saying were in iraq to fight terriost then switch to were rebuilding iraq.

and the leader of iran is like were gunna kill everyone and everyone else is wrong and im right. we gota kill to get peace. bush and irans leader are both stubborn and if they could get it through there think skulls that what there doing is stupid then maby we can avoid another war. but that looks unlikely.

Edited September 24, 2006 by War-Junkie

[Conspiracy]

Americas gonna get hit hard by going after Iran, espeacially if Iran allys itself against all the other countries america is attacking over there in the ME

[bathory]

I joined this forum to discuss things like planetology, not start bickering about current world events and past history. To be honest i do not care, for some reason i just wanted to get into a argument about this issue as i want British troops to pull out of the middle east.

I came for the Cryptozoology, i stayed for the bickering in the World Events

[Aztec Warrior]

Americas gonna get hit hard by going after Iran, espeacially if Iran allys itself against all the other countries america is attacking over there in the ME

And exactly how is that going to happen? Will Iran nuke America with bombs they say they don't want? IF they have all the allies in the middle east, how would that help them?

More than likely, the EU will do nothing. The US will do nothing. And one day the news will headline with Jerusalem nuked or some other western city.

Then Iran will be hit hard, as probably will Damascus.

[Aztec Warrior]

EnglishArcher, do you really think America started World War 2 by provoking Japan into attacking Pearl Harbor?

[EnglishArcher]

All i pointed out was the economic sanctions by America provoked Japan into attacking.

Anyway the second world war had already started by the time America was attacked, so your question was pointless.

Edited September 24, 2006 by EnglishArcher

[Mars]

Actualy Ericraven he didnt say anything racist. Judaism or a jew(well unless your using it for slang for the tribe of Judah) isnt a race. Some jews consider it racist. Now some might be screaming but..but..but... But just because american courts decided Jew a race doesnt mean it is.

well being a jew is a race. Even if it started out as a religion, when one group of people intermarry each other for that long of a time, over that many years, then its a race. by your standards theres no such thing as races.

[Sanjuro]

US should mind their own bussines and stay home.

[The Skeptic Eric Raven]

US should mind their own bussines and stay home.

Never happen not when you have crazies in Iran wanting to build nukes and bring on the end of the world.

[Heru]

well being a jew is a race. Even if it started out as a religion, when one group of people intermarry each other for that long of a time, over that many years, then its a race. by your standards theres no such thing as races.

What intermarrying? Before rome, and before there few exiles they intermarried with there neighbors, Solomon supposidly had a son from a queen in africa. And they havnt had a state again till the 60s I think. With muslims and christians from around the world moving in and pilgriming there, I dont think its been a stagnent gene pool like you think.

You cant join a race, your born into it. But you can join a nation or a religion. Now there is a stereotype of Jews looking a certain way but same with muslims being arabic.

Again not all jews are semetic, and jews do not have common DNA. Hell even there state isnt all jewish.

And are you sure he said "bow to all iranians"? And Isreal is the culture and the government not the land.

[Heru]

Never happen not when you have crazies in Iran wanting to build nukes and bring on the end of the world.

Well if we would have never taken there land and made it a isreal state, for something that the west did. They probaly wouldnt dislike the western world as much. If we made germany a jewish state that would have made sense.

[odas]

Well if we would have never taken there land and made it a isreal state, for something that the west did. They probaly wouldnt dislike the western world as much. If we made germany a jewish state that would have made sense.

Let's see. If Jews have a historic right on the land called Israel, wich is acctually Palestine, and the good west fights for their reight, then why don't we give back following lands to their rightfull owners: South balkans to the Albaniens, North and South America to their Natives, Australia to the Aboriginals, Southafrica to their Native owners...........

Co-exictance yes, anytime, but we can't have one justice system for one person and one for the other. Hipocricy is standing in the way of peace, not history or a certain race or religion.

If the west wood stop being hipocritical, maybe there would be a chance for moderate Jews and moderate Muslims to find a peacefull way to have two states living side by side in this part of the planet. However, looks like somebody likes the fact that there is always a threat of war, localy and beyond.

[Stardrive]

Very true, Stardive. Unless we are talking abour Islam and muslims. Then we can bash as much we want. That is sick.

Bashing comes in many forms my friend. Gender, race, religion, age and so on. But you know as well as I do, when people get angry they say things they should'nt say. We are both guilty of that. We all are. I have seen threads closed here for Islam and muslim bashing. So be wary as I am my friend, for I believe there are forces of evil working very hard to cloud our minds in these times.

Remeber my favorite star - Mel Gibson? His remarks were condemned in all news, on this threads and he was called a fasict and whatever not.

But the same pepole stood behinde Pup's Benedicts remarks and tried to defend him, like he did not mean it. Maybe he was also talking while UI?

Mel was drunk and abusing his right of freedom of speech and it got him in trouble.

The pope was refering to a comment someone else made hundreds of years ago. I'm not catholic so I really dont pay him much attention, and I dont know the content or context of his speech to be able to give an educated reply to that. If he was truely bashing Islams and muslims he should be ashamed and do everything in his power to make up for that.

Got to go my friend, good to see you and take care !!

[metacast]

Iran is working on a nuke. That's reason enough to put the brakes on them. Sure, the people may have no problem with the U.S. but, in a nation like Iran, they also have little if any say either. A nuclear Iran would be a serious threat to world security. Remember the Cold War? Well, the Soviets weren't nuts. They weren't all that keen on start a nuke fest. They knew that they would die and that was not high on thier list of favorable outcomes. These leaders in Iran on the other hand, they think that dying is just a means of getting to heaven. If they had a nuke, I really believe they'd be foaming at the mouth to use it.

irans people arent nuts though. thats what i was under the impression of. What type of government is it?

[Lord Umbarger]

When the Jews were exiled from thier homeland in the Middle East by the Romans, the name was changed to Palistine. Before then, it was known as Israel. The Palistinians never ahd a homeland before that. The Palistinians are still not really a race. They aren't really even an ethnic group. They are the decendants of arabs from various places who were not accepted by the other arab tribes. SOme of them are decendants of nomads who for what ever reason refused to settle into cities while the other nations were carving out a place for themselves. When the Romans exiled the Jews, they just sort of settled there because it was the one place they could find that wasn't filed with people who would kill them.

The U.S. was supposed to have place the metal and oil embargo on Japan in protest for thier on going invasions in South East Asia. I wasn't there then but, that's one of the things that I read.

The IAEAs last report on Iran states that there were places that they wanted to inspect but were denied access by the Iranian officials. The Russians recently offered to provide the Iranians with new nuclear power plants, the needed goods for the power generating process, and offered to then take the waste material off thier hands for disposal. All of this was refused by the Iranian government. If they are not trying to make a bomb, then why wouldn't they take the Russian deal? Why would they want nuclear waste in thier soil for the next 20,000 years?

Maybe they plan to make thier own bombs, using the power genetrating as a cover and then sell the wastes to terror groups like hezbollah for dirty nukes.

For a better question perhaps we should look below the surface. Underground, to be precice. Why would one of the richest oil producing nations on earth need nuclear power? Them needing nuclear power plants is sort of like them needing coal fired electricity generators or Afganistan needing a navy!

Nope, I don't buy it. Mahmoud wants the bomb, plane and simple.

[metacast]

For a better question perhaps we should look below the surface. Underground, to be precice. Why would one of the richest oil producing nations on earth need nuclear power? Them needing nuclear power plants is sort of like them needing coal fired electricity generators or Afganistan needing a navy!

Nope, I don't buy it. Mahmoud wants the bomb, plane and simple.

I think they would want nuclear energy. they will save alot of money. Besides we need some hardcore proof before we attack. it doesnt matter. this whole country could go to waste because we didnt act first under shady circumstances. but i would be ok with that. That would never happen because they dont have an offensive force like that. so to remain the world leaders in everything inlcuding ethics. we need to play ethicly like until the other "free' nations of the world give us the go.

no they are coming right for us tactics.

[odas]

When the Jews were exiled from thier homeland in the Middle East by the Romans, the name was changed to Palistine. Before then, it was known as Israel. The Palistinians never ahd a homeland before that. The Palistinians are still not really a race. They aren't really even an ethnic group.

Where did that come from? Palestine existet before Biblical Israel was founded.

The Philistines and Israelitis had bothe their own states. Israel was not as close as big as it is now. It was a dot on the map in this region.

Philistines are semitic, just like the Israelis or Arabs if you don not know what an ethnic group is. And on one point you are right. Palestinians ( Biblical Philistines) are not a race but a nationality like English, American or German. They are Palestinian.

As I said before in my post, if you want to go historicaly, then give everybody their land back.

You are mixing up religion, ethnicity and nationality.

[Ashigaru]

US should mind their own bussines and stay home.

Last time we did that a world war happened.

When you're as powerful as the US you're in a lose-lose situation as far a politics go. If the US goes for a pre-emptive strike we get the "WTF ARE YOU DOING IDIOTS!" if we do nothing and something happens we'd get "WHY THE HELL DIDN'T YOU DO ANYTHING BEFORE IDIOTS!".

As for WMDs.

Edited September 25, 2006 by Ashigaru

[metacast]

Last time we did that a world war happened.

When you're as powerful as the US you're in a lose-lose situation as far a politics go. If the US goes for a pre-emptive strike we get the "WTF ARE YOU DOING IDIOTS!" if we do nothing and something happens we'd get "WHY THE HELL DIDN'T YOU DO ANYTHING BEFORE IDIOTS!".

As for WMDs.

there is no way to prove that the intent of the administration's is an ethical one. They dont tell us anything worthy to form our own opinion.

So would our government buyout a corporation before it grew into a competitor... well it really depends on if we have unethical and 'smart' business men running our country.

I think so. and I have my list of reasons. One Bush isnt stupid. Two. Bush definately doesnt follow christian philosophy (turn the other cheek).

World is like a handful of brothers and sisters(nations) and america, to me, is the biatch-a that wants everyone to look at her. Sociopathic too. There are better girls around than her, but they dont call attention to themselves and wage drama. And our girl just happens to have a redneck incectrial boyfriend(seemingly dominant agenda) who is saying if we dont get them now in 10 years they can get us and our baby's Bush is the only one whos got the balls to operate our private weapons. now lets screw everyone for the family before she(america) leaves this guy for a real man and ruins our plans for a united family at the cost of millions of innocent live.

or its like taking shrooms and killing brain cells to achieve enlightenment. to laying mushrooms and killing humans to achieve a united humanity.

umm i think they are pretty bad metaphors but their kinda funny so ill leave it.

Edited September 26, 2006 by ADbox

[Lord Umbarger]

If you're O.K. with the idea of getting nuked, then you're O.K. with it. I, on the other hand, am not O.K. with it. And certainly not if there is something that can be done to prevent it.

I don't see how it would be cheaper for them, concidering the fac t that they sit on one of the worlds largest prooven reserves of oil. It is far cheaper to build and maintain oil wells and refineries that to build a nuclear poewr plant. Not to mention the insuing waste products.Someone like France would have an arguement for it though. They have very little in the way of oil reserves, coal reserves and geo-thermal activity. Solar poewr would for the most part be out of the question because of thier location. Wind power might work but, they would have to put much of thier nation under the mills.

As for waiting for other nations to give us the go ahead...

I really don't like that idea. And just which countries are we supposed to wait on? France? Germany? IRAN? There will always be a nation that doesn't want us to go ahead.Remember Russia in the last Gulf War? They were selling to Saddam. They certainly didn't want us to go kill thier customers. It's bad for business when your customers get whacked.

We are a nation unto ourselves. The decisions that our leaders make should be based on the best evidence at hand and what is best for us. Not permission from someone else. We are not an attack dog. Who gives Iran and North Korea permission to play with madness? Who holds Chinas leash?

The whole argument for them having nuclear power is mooted when you say that the U.S. should get permission to act in our own self interest. "If they want a bomb, well, America has one", "if they want Nuke Power, well, America has it". They want it, in what ever form you believe they want it, because they believe that it would be in thier best interest, right? Well, we didnt give them permission.

[Mr Slayer]

US should mind their own bussines and stay home.

They can't. Everything's their business.

[Heru]

If you're O.K. with the idea of getting nuked, then you're O.K. with it. I, on the other hand, am not O.K. with it. And certainly not if there is something that can be done to prevent it.

I don't see how it would be cheaper for them, concidering the fac t that they sit on one of the worlds largest prooven reserves of oil. It is far cheaper to build and maintain oil wells and refineries that to build a nuclear poewr plant. Not to mention the insuing waste products.Someone like France would have an arguement for it though. They have very little in the way of oil reserves, coal reserves and geo-thermal activity. Solar poewr would for the most part be out of the question because of thier location. Wind power might work but, they would have to put much of thier nation under the mills.

As for waiting for other nations to give us the go ahead...

I really don't like that idea. And just which countries are we supposed to wait on? France? Germany? IRAN? There will always be a nation that doesn't want us to go ahead.Remember Russia in the last Gulf War? They were selling to Saddam. They certainly didn't want us to go kill thier customers. It's bad for business when your customers get whacked.

We are a nation unto ourselves. The decisions that our leaders make should be based on the best evidence at hand and what is best for us. Not permission from someone else. We are not an attack dog. Who gives Iran and North Korea permission to play with madness? Who holds Chinas leash?

The whole argument for them having nuclear power is mooted when you say that the U.S. should get permission to act in our own self interest. "If they want a bomb, well, America has one", "if they want Nuke Power, well, America has it". They want it, in what ever form you believe they want it, because they believe that it would be in thier best interest, right? Well, we didnt give them permission.

Um uh yea.

Nuclear energy is cheaper and cleaner (if you dont get a melt down) in the long run. And Oil isnt limitless. I think burnable fuel only supplies 20 to 30 percent of our energy.

And the reason Iran and most ME dont like us is because one we finance Isreal and two we interfere with everything. Believe it or not we put saddam in power. Well his leader and I think he was his 2nd or 3rd. We were fine with Saddam till he stoped taking our orders.

We tried to tell N korea to stop there nuke program and they didnt. Just like Iran wont listen.

Russian and china woulda probaly defused all this if we werent being such @sses. They were trying to make a deal where they would enrich the plutonium for them (Russsia that is). The world is trying to help them with the nuclear program which is the only logical, respectful and peacful way, America just wants to stop it. America thinks they have the right to say who can have a nuke and who cant.

Even though we are the only ones to actualy launch it and kill hundreds of civilians.

We say the Iranian government are insane and war hunger just like what we said about Russia.

We had communist witch hunts just like we have terrorist witch hunts except its gotten overboard.

A little of topic but on the colbert report (I dont know how real this is) but they mentioned. Bush wanted to pass that they had the right to declare anyone an illegal combatant and they could sieze and detain with out any cause.

And that he could determen what is and what isnt torture.

Again I dont know how true this is cause of the source.

[Lord Umbarger]

For those of you who are unfamiliar with the "Colbert 'Report'" , it is a comedy show on the Comedy Network. Obviously a high quality news outlet.

I enjoy a good laugh myself but, I do turn off the Yuk-Yuk channel when I'm looking for serious in depth news reporting.

Nuclear power would be cheaper for the Iranians if they would have gone with the Russian offer to supply everything that they need. Other than that, oil IS in fact cheaper when you already have it, can drill it with out paying transport, can get at it with wells that are just a few hundred feet deep and you already have the needed infrastructure. Sort of like cutting down a tree in your back yard or buying the fire wood from the other side of town. If you own forrest, it would make no sence.

"We say the Iranian government are insane and war hunger just like what we said about Russia."

No, we said that they were a threat to our way of life. Far right wing X-tians tacked on the "evil" moniker because of the Soviet docturen of athieism. It was also islams opinion at the time. It's one of the reasons that the mujahadeen fought so long and hard against them in Afganistan. An interesting fact about the Soviets is that they may have wanted to spread thier way of life, not spread the end of life. The U.S. and the U.S.S.R. may not have agreed on the best way to live but, we did agree that we all wanted to live. Not so with radical islam.

Most people knowledgable on the subject of the atomic bomb droppings will tell you that had that not happened there would have been a full scale invasion of Japan. After the recent invasion of several Japanese held islands, it was clear at the time, that that would have been even bloodier. In light of what would have happened, it was the life saving choice.

America thinks they have the right to say who can have a nuke and who cant.

Not so. Stable, non agressive nations like France, United Kingdom, Israel, all have nukes and there has never been an uproar about it. Comparing them to Irans government is sort of like say that you'd give a gun to a murderer on the run but not to the cops trying to catch him. Irans president would use any nuke he had to cause problems. Do you listen to the stuff that comes out of that guys mouth? Do you think that he wouldn't sell some nuclear waste to terrorists if he had it? Look at the way he threatens to lay mines in the Gulf and shut down oil transport to the world couple of months.

All of this is a moot point though. You earlier stated that you'd rather be killed by an idiot with a bomb than to defend yourself and your nation. If that's the case, why do you fight so hard to defend this argument but not your right to live? You can't argue if you're dead.

The world is not all bubble gum and bunny rabbits. There are people out there who want to kill me, you our mothers and our children. If he thinks that dying will send him to allah, then great. If he wants to kill me then I'll help arrange his meeting with allah. Maybe you would rather die than protect yourself from a madman, but I have things to live for.