Where did Lucifer fall?

[BlueZone]

I was wondering if anyone has any info on this. I remember reading somewhere that the spot where Lucifer hit the ground when he fell from the heavens is one of the most cursed spots in the world. Although I know Lucifer's fall from heaven is more literal than actual (meaning he fell from the ways and will of God), I read this somewhere and couldn't find anything on the internet or the UM forums about this. Just wondering if anyone had any info or ideas.

Hiroshima? Birmingham, Alabama? Auschwitz?

[SoCrazes]

Scriptures are, in a sense, history books. Interpretations of history books include, orthodox, revisionists, neo-orthodox, etc. I beleive most arguments developed on this thread have to deal with these different paradigms of the bible.

[hanuman]

Lucifer fell to eart in Multan, Pakistan.

*http://wahpakistanwah.com/pakistan-history/2-history-of-multan.html

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Down the stairs

[archangel_josh]

I was wondering if anyone has any info on this. I remember reading somewhere that the spot where Lucifer hit the ground when he fell from the heavens is one of the most cursed spots in the world. Although I know Lucifer's fall from heaven is more literal than actual (meaning he fell from the ways and will of God), I read this somewhere and couldn't find anything on the internet or the UM forums about this. Just wondering if anyone had any info or ideas.

Also, I wasn't really sure where to post this, so I decided to post here.

It was in the area we now know as 'Israel' (which was near Turkey/Greece when the Earth had one original continant).

You're right, there is no actual place where Lucifer fell. He just decided to go against Yahweh and reveal the truth to the first humans.

By the way, I believe that scientists from another planet created all life on Earth and were mistaken for 'gods'. Yahweh (the 'god' of Israel) was the head scientist who didn't want the creation to advance and surpass their creators, so he ordered all the other scientists to keep them in ignorance and to keep them primitive. Lucifer disagreed with this, seeing that humans were just like their creators and deserved to be treated as adults, so he revealed the truth to the early humans. He and his team were metaphorically refered to as 'the serpent'.

For more info on this, download 'Intelligent Design - Message from the Designers' at www.rael.org

-Josh

[Lt_Ripley]

It was in the area we now know as 'Israel' (which was near Turkey/Greece when the Earth had one original continant).

You're right, there is no actual place where Lucifer fell. He just decided to go against Yahweh and reveal the truth to the first humans.

By the way, I believe that scientists from another planet created all life on Earth and were mistaken for 'gods'. Yahweh (the 'god' of Israel) was the head scientist who didn't want the creation to advance and surpass their creators, so he ordered all the other scientists to keep them in ignorance and to keep them primitive. Lucifer disagreed with this, seeing that humans were just like their creators and deserved to be treated as adults, so he revealed the truth to the early humans. He and his team were metaphorically refered to as 'the serpent'.

For more info on this, download 'Intelligent Design - Message from the Designers' at www.rael.org

-Josh

please read Mr. Seanph's posts. knowledge is power.

[TinaMarie]

I seem to recall that "the spot where Lucifer fell" was featured in the last Exorcist movie.

But in truth, Lucifer never "fell" becasue Lucifer never existed. There is no fallen angel named Lucifer in either the Old or New Testament. This character wasn't invented until long after the New Testament books were formulated. This has been discussed at length here on UM several times. The Lucifer passage in the Bible refers to the human King of Babylon. There are no fallen angels in the Bible at all, and Satan of the Old Testament is an obedient servant of God.

All of this evil Satan and Lucifier stuff was invented by the Christian Church to have a new religion filled with pagan dualistic ideas to make it popular to their pagan recruits. It is not in the OT scriptures recognized by Jesus.

lol..satan does exist..he is prob.in you right now telling u he doesnt exist.psh..but at the end lucifer will fall on his a**.

[momentarylapseofreason]

lol..satan does exist..he is prob.in you right now telling u he doesnt exist.psh..but at the end lucifer will fall on his a**.

lol..Reason does exist..it's prob.in you right now telling u "hey, I'm here, use me !!"..but at the end Reason will fall on it's a**.

[draconic chronicler]

lol..satan does exist..he is prob.in you right now telling u he doesnt exist.psh..but at the end lucifer will fall on his a**.

It is common knowledge now, and even accepted by many Christians today that the "fallen lucifer" is a mistranlation of verses that derided HUMAN enemies of ancient Israel, including the Prince of Tyre and King of Bablyon. Documentaion has been posted here about this many times before and easy to find on the internet.

Then who is Satan? The word only means "an opposer" in Hebrew, it is not a proper name. Again, another misunderstanding of the early Christians who knew no Hebrew.

The Satan in the Old Testament is an obedient servant of Yahweh, and can do nothing without his permission as the scriptures clearly state, such as the Bok of Job where God and the 'satan' are playing a horrible game with the life of Job and his Children who do ot survive this game.

The Christian Satan is clearly the Dragon Ahriman of Persian zoroastrian beliefs, and his battle with a chief angel, binding and imprisionment in the abyss, escape and renewal of rebellion, and final condemnation into a lake of fire was plagiarised by John of Patmos from legends that were hundreds of years older. He only changed the name of the dragon and angel. It is no wonder that so many anceint Christian leaders did not want this Persian Fairytale in the Bible, and even more amazing that so few Christians today are aware of this.

Edited November 28, 2008 by draconic chronicler

[draconic chronicler]

It was in the area we now know as 'Israel' (which was near Turkey/Greece when the Earth had one original continant).

You're right, there is no actual place where Lucifer fell. He just decided to go against Yahweh and reveal the truth to the first humans.

By the way, I believe that scientists from another planet created all life on Earth and were mistaken for 'gods'. Yahweh (the 'god' of Israel) was the head scientist who didn't want the creation to advance and surpass their creators, so he ordered all the other scientists to keep them in ignorance and to keep them primitive. Lucifer disagreed with this, seeing that humans were just like their creators and deserved to be treated as adults, so he revealed the truth to the early humans. He and his team were metaphorically refered to as 'the serpent'.

For more info on this, download 'Intelligent Design - Message from the Designers' at www.rael.org

-Josh

No Josh, if you knew even a little about this, the origiinal Hebrews NEVER acknowledge "Satan" was in the garden of eden, just a serpent. They also never acknowledged there was a fallen angel (or astronaut) named Satan. This word is not even a proper name, but a generic term for anythin that opposses someone else.

Now why wouldn't your brilliant ancient alien astronauts know these things? After all, they could master intergalactic space travel and created life on earth, right?

[churchanddestroy]

No Josh, if you knew even a little about this, the origiinal Hebrews NEVER acknowledge "Satan" was in the garden of eden, just a serpent. They also never acknowledged there was a fallen angel (or astronaut) named Satan. This word is not even a proper name, but a generic term for anythin that opposses someone else.

Now why wouldn't your brilliant ancient alien astronauts know these things? After all, they could master intergalactic space travel and created life on earth, right?

Ah, DC I think you have run into a nail/head situation here. I'm not sure exactly when it started but equating the serpent of the garden to Satan is a purely Christian construct, as far as I have ever read the Hebrews believed no such thing. The text calls it a serpent, and thats what it was: a serpent.

[salice]

I just waded thru this mess.

I for one refuse to believe anything that Draconic whatshisname states until

1. I see actual proof that he has written and published his much referred to book. And not some home-published piece of crap either.

2. I see the History channel piece he constantly refers to that he supposedly is in.

Two words came to mind each time I saw one of his posts: blow hard. So let's have the name of the book and/or the documentary.

[draconic chronicler]

Ah, DC I think you have run into a nail/head situation here. I'm not sure exactly when it started but equating the serpent of the garden to Satan is a purely Christian construct, as far as I have ever read the Hebrews believed no such thing. The text calls it a serpent, and thats what it was: a serpent.

That is not completely true. Very late Jewish scriptures written AFTER the Jews returned from their Persian captivity where they were influenced by Zoroastrian dualisim DO begin to refer to an evil Satan in the Garden of Eden. The best known of these late books, or apocryphal books as they are called is Enoch which largely shaped Christian doctrine, though later on the Chruch tried to wipe out all traces of it, but they failed.

This is reasonable because the serpent in the original eden story was originally a kind of dragon, and not a legless serpent. In the Bible story the serpent is punished by having his limbs/wings removed and must crawl upon its belly. The opposing deity of the zoroastrian religions was the dragon Ahriman so it was very easy for the Jews (and Christians) influenced by the Persian religion to identify Satan with Ahriman even though this never appears in the only scriptures Jesus ever endorsed, the Holy Torah.

In the original Sumerian Eden account, much older than the Bible, Enki "the Great Serpent Dragon of Heaven" as he is called in his hymns, and the builder of the Garden of Eden, does not want to lose his servant Adam, so tricks him out of immortality telling him not to eat the bread of life offered by the high god Anu. After years of retelling by illiterate herdsmen, this would be transformed into the familiar Genesis story.

Ironically, the same 'dragon' of eden who tricks Adam also 'saves' the original Noah in the original version of the flood epic.

[draconic chronicler]

I just waded thru this mess.

I for one refuse to believe anything that Draconic whatshisname states until

1. I see actual proof that he has written and published his much referred to book. And not some home-published piece of crap either.

2. I see the History channel piece he constantly refers to that he supposedly is in.

Two words came to mind each time I saw one of his posts: blow hard. So let's have the name of the book and/or the documentary.

The book about the dragons of the Bible is not quite finished, though it will be soon. I do have several published books already, by a mainstream British publisher and not related to dragons, but more mainstream history. Three are printed in multiple languages (French, English, German Italian, and one is sold in several museum bookstores. As for History Channel, I have been involved in a number of programs.

But none of this is relevant to the discussions at hand. I can back up everything I say here with scholarly sources and I know what I am talking about.

[churchanddestroy]

That is not completely true. Very late Jewish scriptures written AFTER the Jews returned from their Persian captivity where they were influenced by Zoroastrian dualisim DO begin to refer to an evil Satan in the Garden of Eden. The best known of these late books, or apocryphal books as they are called is Enoch which largely shaped Christian doctrine, though later on the Chruch tried to wipe out all traces of it, but they failed.

This is reasonable because the serpent in the original eden story was originally a kind of dragon, and not a legless serpent. In the Bible story the serpent is punished by having his limbs/wings removed and must crawl upon its belly. The opposing deity of the zoroastrian religions was the dragon Ahriman so it was very easy for the Jews (and Christians) influenced by the Persian religion to identify Satan with Ahriman even though this never appears in the only scriptures Jesus ever endorsed, the Holy Torah.

In the original Sumerian Eden account, much older than the Bible, Enki "the Great Serpent Dragon of Heaven" as he is called in his hymns, and the builder of the Garden of Eden, does not want to lose his servant Adam, so tricks him out of immortality telling him not to eat the bread of life offered by the high god Anu. After years of retelling by illiterate herdsmen, this would be transformed into the familiar Genesis story.

Ironically, the same 'dragon' of eden who tricks Adam also 'saves' the original Noah in the original version of the flood epic.

Ah, well then, ::tips hat:: I'll take your word for that seeing as how studies of antiquity are more your forte than mine. I've always found the similarity between the ancient Sumerian myths and the younger Judeo-Christian myths very very interesting.

[salice]

The book about the dragons of the Bible is not quite finished, though it will be soon. I do have several published books already, by a mainstream British publisher and not related to dragons, but more mainstream history. Three are printed in multiple languages (French, English, German Italian, and one is sold in several museum bookstores. As for History Channel, I have been involved in a number of programs.

But none of this is relevant to the discussions at hand. I can back up everything I say here with scholarly sources and I know what I am talking about.

Hmmm. Are you the same Draconic Chronicler that writes "Shrek FanFiction"? Same name, same avatar and it is about dragons. http://www.fanfiction.net/u/1307227/draconic_chronicler

[draconic chronicler]

Hmmm. Are you the same Draconic Chronicler that writes "Shrek FanFiction"? Same name, same avatar and it is about dragons. http://www.fanfiction.net/u/1307227/draconic_chronicler

Yes, just for fun, from time to time, and I have quite a number of fans because it is also good writing. In fact, in this very forum I directed someone to that story, so I am hardly trying to hide the fact, which is why I use the same Avatar and pen name as well.

Professional writers can write for fun as well. In fact, if I wasn't trying to get the 'serious/biblcal' dragon book finished, that story might have been completed by now, and published through the franchise owners, and it was my plan to submit it to them when finished. I'd like to see it made into a film.

But I fear we are getting off topic. If you think my comments here are incorrect, feel free to provide scholarly evidence to refute it.

[draconic chronicler]

Ah, well then, ::tips hat:: I'll take your word for that seeing as how studies of antiquity are more your forte than mine. I've always found the similarity between the ancient Sumerian myths and the younger Judeo-Christian myths very very interesting.

Google the word "bibleorigins" for an excellent, secular website on this subject.

[ambelamba]

Seanph my man, I feel deeply sorry for you because it seems that no one ever reacts to your insight.

Seanph is right. The word Lucifer is a total mistranslation. In fact, St. Jerome, who wrote the Latin Vulgate version of the Bible, used the name Lucifer to deliberately humiliate a bishop named Lucifer.

This bishop named Lucifer (probably a popular name in Roman Empire) was rather forgiving and understanding to heretics. This p***ed off St. Jerome and intentionally mistranslated the verse. Hah.

Sadly, many people are not smart enough to look into such things. Once they are held tightly by a dogma, they can't think otherwise. Shame.

Lucifer never fell from anywhere. This term is used only once in the Bible and it is in reference to a Babylonian king. There was no "fall". This is a misnomer.

John J. Robinson A Pilgrim's Path, pp. 47-48:

"Lucifer makes his appearance in the fourteenth chapter of the Old Testament book of Isaiah, at the twelfth verse, and nowhere else: "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

The first problem is that Lucifer is a Latin name. So how did it find its way into a Hebrew manuscript, written before there was a Roman language? To find the answer, I consulted a scholar at the library of the Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati. What Hebrew name, I asked, was Satan given in this chapter of Isaiah, which describes the angel who fell to become the ruler of hell?

The answer was a surprise. In the original Hebrew text, the fourteenth chapter of Isaiah is not about a fallen angel, but about a fallen Babylonian king, who during his lifetime had persecuted the children of Israel. It contains no mention of Satan, either by name or reference. The Hebrew scholar could only speculate that some early Christian scribes, writing in the Latin tongue used by the Church, had decided for themselves that they wanted the story to be about a fallen angel, a creature not even mentioned in the original Hebrew text, and to whom they gave the name "Lucifer."

Why Lucifer? In Roman astronomy, Lucifer was the name given to the morning star (the star we now know by another Roman name, Venus). The morning star appears in the heavens just before dawn, heralding the rising sun. The name derives from the Latin term lucem ferre, bringer, or bearer, of light." In the Hebrew text the expression used to describe the Babylonian king before his death is Helal, son of Shahar, which can best be translated as "Day star, son of the Dawn." The name evokes the golden glitter of a proud king's dress and court (much as his personal splendor earned for King Louis XIV of France the appellation, "The Sun King").

The scholars authorized by ... King James I to translate the Bible into current English did not use the original Hebrew texts, but used versions translated ... largely by St. Jerome in the fourth century. Jerome had mistranslated the Hebraic metaphor, "Day star, son of the Dawn," as "Lucifer," and over the centuries a metamorphosis took place. Lucifer the morning star became a disobedient angel, cast out of heaven to rule eternally in hell. Theologians, writers, and poets interwove the myth with the doctrine of the Fall, and in Christian tradition Lucifer is now the same as Satan, the Devil, and--ironically--the Prince of Darkness.

So "Lucifer" is nothing more than an ancient Latin name for the morning star, the bringer of light. That can be confusing for Christians who identify Christ himself as the morning star, a term used as a central theme in many Christian sermons. Jesus refers to himself as the morning star in Revelation 22:16: "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."

And so there are those who do not read beyond the King James version of the Bible, who say 'Lucifer is Satan: so says the Word of God'...."

Here’s a brief synopsis of The Origins of Satan by Professor Elaine Pagels (Princeton University):

“Pagels charts the evolution of the Jewish and Christian concept of evil from Old Testament times to the present day (although the majority of the book deals with the New Testament era). She explains how ' Satan ' didn't always refer to an evil being but was initially used to represent an obstacle. After that meaning, it evolved into a meaning which was used to unify your group against your enemies/adversaries or 'satan'. The Jews still don't, nor did they ever, believe in or create the Satan/Devil being/creature/character of Christian lore.

It wasn't until New Testament times and later that the concept of an evil being who is actually called 'Satan' or the 'Devil' or ' Lucifer ' evolved. It is interesting to see how these concepts have continued to persist throughout religious and political history with groups stigmatizing others not in their group (whether it be religious, political, racial, etc.) as being 'of the devil'. Dictatorships and other authoritarian organizations always need an external enemy to bind their followers together.”

The Origins of Satan

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/067973118...TF8&s=books

Kindly,

Sean

[SnakesWisdom]

I was wondering if anyone has any info on this. I remember reading somewhere that the spot where Lucifer hit the ground when he fell from the heavens is one of the most cursed spots in the world. Although I know Lucifer's fall from heaven is more literal than actual (meaning he fell from the ways and will of God), I read this somewhere and couldn't find anything on the internet or the UM forums about this. Just wondering if anyone had any info or ideas.

Also, I wasn't really sure where to post this, so I decided to post here.

i believe when lucifer fell, him and all the other beings that advocated him were cast out of the heavens by god, and then god created for them a separate realm for them to dwell, and that realm became hell, and lucifer and all his advocates became demons

Edited April 8, 2009 by SnakesWisdom

[CausticGnostic]

i believe when lucifer fell, him and all the other beings that advocated him were cast out of the heavens by god, and then god created for them a separate realm for them to dwell, and that realm became hell, and lucifer and all his advocates became demons

So, essentially, you believe Milton's "Paradise Lost" instead of the Bible?

[norwood1026]

DD I dont know what book your getting your info from but know were in the old or new testament it talks about alexander the great. Their is a verse in the good book were it states any man who takes these words and pretty much rearanges them shall burn in a sea of sulfure. It also states that no words shall be taken out or put in. Nobody has changed any context of the bible. Angles are not mortal they are eternal and satan is spirit. What your really claiming on is that God or anything else in the bible is not true. Also considering that your profile pic is a demon. I will pray for you and hope when your time comes that you will be a true beliver and have christ in your heart. Trust in the lord for he is the alpha and the omegal.

I smell a troll.

[bleedingelite]

I think the mention of lucifer in the bible is referring to Venus, not some devil guy. It's only in there once, isn't it? And i know that it means something in latin that is something to do with first light or morning light or something, right?

[grandpafreeman]

I seem to recall that "the spot where Lucifer fell" was featured in the last Exorcist movie.

But in truth, Lucifer never "fell" becasue Lucifer never existed. There is no fallen angel named Lucifer in either the Old or New Testament. This character wasn't invented until long after the New Testament books were formulated. This has been discussed at length here on UM several times. The Lucifer passage in the Bible refers to the human King of Babylon. There are no fallen angels in the Bible at all, and Satan of the Old Testament is an obedient servant of God.

All of this evil Satan and Lucifier stuff was invented by the Christian Church to have a new religion filled with pagan dualistic ideas to make it popular to their pagan recruits. It is not in the OT scriptures recognized by Jesus.

"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning. How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations.....For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north." (Isaiah 14:12-13).

[WoIverine]

I was wondering if anyone has any info on this. I remember reading somewhere that the spot where Lucifer hit the ground when he fell from the heavens is one of the most cursed spots in the world. Although I know Lucifer's fall from heaven is more literal than actual (meaning he fell from the ways and will of God), I read this somewhere and couldn't find anything on the internet or the UM forums about this. Just wondering if anyone had any info or ideas.

Also, I wasn't really sure where to post this, so I decided to post here.

Which time, first time, or second time? He, along with several other angels "fell" to earth supposedly. The second time occurs in Revelation, he tries to challenge God again, and gets his ass handed to him, cast down to Earth again. Interesting prophecy about that. Quetzlcoatl the "Serpent god" descends in 2012, etc. Related? Who knows. That's taken from different sources, don't quote me on any of it, if you look though, you'll find it.

Edited June 13, 2012 by Spid3rCyd3