Straw tells Muslim women to take off veils.

[odas]

Way to go guys, from one topic right away to bashing Islam again.

Well got nothing better to do, ehh?

I've dared, but the Amish guy explained it nicely to me that it was part of their religion and so on... It went on but the bottom line is he didn't threaten me in anyway, didn't blow me up, didn't threaten to slay my family nor did he make any move of aggression towards me.

Why did you ask them in the first place, you don't like the way they look like or was it your expression of western tolerance?

You goofed up there

[__Kratos__]

Why did you ask them in the first place, you don't like the way they look like or was it your expression of western tolerance?

You goofed up there

Well they don't live that far away from me maybe about a 45 minute drive and I've got up there countless times over the years... I was simply curious. I didn't tell them or ask them to take it off though, I asked why they wore what they did. I seem to be on good terms with them... When I go past them I nearly always buy farm fresh eggs and sometimes if they have it fresh meat.

[__Kratos__]

The Islamic veil across Europe

Comments by British cabinet minister Jack Straw are the latest episode in a Europe-wide debate on the Islamic veil.

Mr Straw said he asked Muslim women visitors to his offices to remove their veils to facilitate communication.

Countries across the continent have wrestled with an issue that takes in religious freedom, female equality, secular traditions and even fears of terrorism.

FRANCE

A ban on Muslim headscarves and other "conspicuous" religious symbols at state schools was introduced in 2004.

The measure received overwhelming political and public support in a country where the separation of state and religion is enshrined in law.

However, headscarves can be worn in Muslim schools, and at university level, where the law on religious signs does not apply.

TURKEY

For the past 80 years Turks have lived in a secular state founded by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, who rejected headscarves as backward-looking in his campaign to secularise Turkish society.

Even so, it is estimated that as many as 65% of Turkish women cover their heads with a scarf.

Nonetheless, scarves are banned in civic spaces, including schools, universities - state or private - and official buildings.

In November 2005 the European Court of Human Rights ruled the ban was legitimate.

BRITAIN

There is no ban on Islamic dress in the UK.

However, schools are allowed to forge their own dress code.

The courts were forced to rule when a schoolgirl complained that her school sent her home for wearing a jilbab, which covers the entire body, except for hands, feet, face, and head.

The courts said the school made sufficient concessions by allowing the Islamic trousers and tunic.

GERMANY

In September 2003 the federal Constitutional Court ruled in favour of a teacher who wanted to wear an Islamic scarf to school.

However, it said states could change their laws locally if they wanted to.

At least four German states have gone on to ban teachers from wearing headscarves and in the state of Hesse the ban applies to all civil servants.

RUSSIA

Russia's Supreme Court has overturned a 1997 interior ministry ruling which forbade women from wearing headscarves in passport photos.

ITALY

In September 2004 local politicians in the north of Italy resurrected old laws against the wearing of masks, to ban women from wearing the all-over burqa.

In July 05 the Italian parliament approved anti-terrorist laws which make hiding one's features from the public - including through wearing the burqa - an offence.

BELGIUM

The city of Maaseik, on the Dutch border, has banned the niqab, which covers the whole body except for the eyes.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Pinky Floyd]

Way to go guys, from one topic right away to bashing Islam again.

Well got nothing better to do, ehh?

I'm not bashing, I'm telling it the way I feel that it is. Sorry (not really) if you find it offensive, but if there is a counter-point to any of my posts, feel free to 'let me have it'-but be specific on where I went wrong with my 'generalizations' about Islam. Instead of beating up me or beating Christianity (which this thread is not about), stick to the issues pertaining to Islam. I have tried to break it down point-by point to make is easier to debate specific issues.

If it's that great of a religion, or I'm that so-very-wrong; it should be easy.

Bottom line, Islam has problems with actually giving people 'free-will' to make their own decisions. Sharia law (thx B-A!) makes all decisions for people; making it facist in very nature. That's not for a religion to decide govenmental 'morality'. Not Islam, not Christianity...no religion.

That's what this thread is all about.

(unfortunatly I will be in Wisconson and Iowa over the next 4-5 days and unable to reply. )

Edited October 6, 2006 by Pinky Floyd

[wnf]

Who ever said I am not free? You are free from what, exactly? I don't have "a deep-seated" problem with sex.I am only a teenager and I would only do it if I am married.Sex is not a game.And in my country, a country which consists of mainly muslims, we do not carry out those kind of punishments either.And my God does exist.Who are you to tell me otherwise? God created us and he will test our strengths and faith to Him.He would not punish 'infidels' now but we will be judged later after kiamat or the end of the world.This is to really test humans wether they are truly faithful to God or not.And the whole thing about 'freedom of speech' I can respect that but are we wrong to condemn this offensive act regarding our Prophet? I don't think so.I don't know about the burning of bibles but that is something that Islam does not encourage at all.I do acknowledge that some muslims are extremists and I feel bad about that.We should be reasonable in all matters.Why don't you be reasonable and stop using vulgar words.I'm not a person that likes to argue and protest but all these things about my religion is really testing my patience and I could not just sit around and do nothing.The point is I don't hate you or anything but you may hate me because I'm a muslim. If you don't agree with Islam and our beliefs, that's fine but you don't have to lash out on us.We should just respect each other's beliefs, okay?

[__Kratos__]

He would not punish 'infidels' now but we will be judged later after kiamat or the end of the world.This is to really test humans wether they are truly faithful to God or not.

Why does the Koran have it in it then? It is the word of Allah, is it not?

Quite honestly, I don't believe your god exists either much for the same reason you dismiss other religions.

[Radian]

OK PEOPLE! IM HAVING A SHARING MOMENT!!!! Sort of OT!!

I live here in the bible belt USA, christian bonafide. I have a very close Islamic friend from Iran her name is Nirmin. We met at the university. She's been here maybe a year. I'm hard stern on my thoughts/beliefs as she is. Amazing to me though, now to think of it, how our conversations go on for hours sometimes, solely on our differences. I can't express enough how we get ideas in our heads from either media, stereotypes, etc., and that idea becomes stubborn, and distorted conclusions of certain peoples/ culture. I assumed she would reject me as she assumed I would reject her in friendship. Like night and day finding it's place in the middle. We did. When she goes back to Iran, I will hold her dear to me for this lifetime, and there are many reasons why. Iran is particular for particular reasons..it almost makes things more difficult sometimes considering terrorism, etc,, somehow we both know that, it's already known, and the problem is already solved. We really don't care religion wise, or political wise. I do not talk to Iran, or the veil (which in private she don't wear it of course), or this muslim woman, I talk to Nirmin. My friendship is with Nirmin. Nirmin is my friend.

[Cinders]

Thank you for sharing your wonderful story Sunny98. I can totally relate to it.

This is an interesting article:

Why Muslim women wear the veil

By Martin Asser

BBC News

Last Updated: Thursday, 5 October 2006, 20:01 GMT 21:01 UK

The Koran, Islam's holy book and treated as the literal word of God, tells Muslims - men and women - to dress modestly.

Male modesty has been interpreted to be covering the area from above the navel to below the knee - and for women it is generally seen as covering everything except their face, hands and feet when in the presence of men they are not related or married to.

However, there has been much debate among Islamic scholars as to whether this goes far enough.

This has led to a distinction between the hijab (literally "covering up" in Arabic) and the niqab (meaning "full veil").

Hijab is a common sight among Muslim women, a scarf that covers their hair and neck.

Niqab consists of covering up completely, including gloves and a veil for the face - leaving just a slit for the eyes, or covering them too with transparent material.

This form of dress is rarer, although it has been growing in recent years, and it is this which former UK Foreign Secretary Jack Straw says he objects to at face-to-face meetings with his constituents.

Muslim scholars have debated whether it is obligatory to don the niqab, or whether it is just recommended without being obligatory.

There have also been more liberal interpretations which say the headscarf is unnecessary, as long as women maintain the sartorial modesty stipulated in the Koran.

Scholarly dispute

The holy text addresses "the faithful women" who are told to shield their private parts and not to display their adornment "except what is apparent of it".

Scholarly disputes revolve around what this last phrase means.

Does it refer to the outer surface of a woman's garments, necessitating that she cover every part of her body - ie don the full niqab?

Or does it give an exemption referring to the face and the hands, as well as conventional female ornaments such as kohl, rings, bracelets and make-up?

The latter interpretation has been adopted by some of the most prominent scholars from Islamic history, such as Abu Jafar al-Tabari, who favour the hijab option.

There are additional Koranic instructions - seen as ambiguous and therefore much debated - for women to draw the "khimar" (or scarf) to cover the "jayb" (or bosom/upper chest), and for "the wives and daughters of the Prophet and the women of the believers to draw their "jalabib" (or cloaks) close round them".

Religious and cultural traditions vary across the Muslim world, stretching from Indonesia to Morocco.

But it may also be left to the Muslim woman to decide for herself, whether she wants to cover up fully with the niqab, as an expression of her faith and Islamic identity, or not.

In countries such as France and Turkey, where there are legal curbs on religious dress, it becomes a matter of women's human rights to wear what they want.

But at the same time the niqab is such a powerful statement that more liberal Muslims sometimes can be heard objecting to it, especially in more developed societies, where women have fought long and hard to shake off restrictions seen as outdated and imposed by men.

From this SOURCE LINK you can also hear the MUSLIM RADIO DEBATE as well as Find out about different styles of Muslim headscarf by clicking the graphics button on the article.

Edited October 7, 2006 by Cinders

[Mars]

.And my God does exist.Who are you to tell me otherwise? God created us and he will test our strengths and faith to Him.

So if you were god you would put people on a small planet and send a few prophets down over milleniums to "test" everyone to see if they believe in a god they never met, in a world with thousands of other "gods"? and if they do not believe then send them off to hell at then end of a million years?

If you really are a teenager then you have your whole life ahead of you, don't waste it on some religion that was, like most religions, was created to control people.

Look how well Islam controls people in the middle east.

Edited October 7, 2006 by Mars

[odas]

Well they don't live that far away from me maybe about a 45 minute drive and I've got up there countless times over the years... I was simply curious. I didn't tell them or ask them to take it off though, I asked why they wore what they did. I seem to be on good terms with them... When I go past them I nearly always buy farm fresh eggs and sometimes if they have it fresh meat.

You said he, the Amish answered you nicely it is part of their religion.

Ok. I will be nice too.

My dear unknown friend Kratos. Thanks for asking me in a very nice manner about the veil in Islam.

The Veil is a part of the Islamic religion. Just it is a part of Christian religion. Most women wear it by their own choice but some are forced by their men which is not good.

Women wear thier Vail when they are outside their home, but within family, they usualy do not, because this will not make them further away from god anyway.

There is also, beside religious reason, how they show respect to other older male members of their husband family.

This could sound a bit wierd for you, my dear friend, but I dont have time know to further explain what the word " respect " truly means. If you ask your father or granddad, I am sure they still know the meaning of it.

I hope, I did not offend you in any way and I humbly apologize if I did.

Thanks again for asking nicely in the first place, so we did not have to bash on each other religions.

Your friend, Odas.

No panic, I'm Islamic

[Baku]

I think Mr Straw his perspective is completly understandable, I mean I totaly agree with him when he said that it feels 'uncomfortable' talking with someone whose face you cannot see. Im a Muslim from a Muslim country (Azerbaijan) and I to think this tradition to wear veils is Backwards with a capital B. This is one of those minor stupid things that prevent worldwide progress.

[SnakeProphet]

If it feels "uncomfortable", then it is obviously his problem.

[Heru]

I get the feeling that him saying he encourages women is like someone asking your wife to take her top off. They probaly think hes a pervert.

And who ever said they are respected when wearing a bikini you gotta be joking right?

Ive never met one man who didnt say one comment (to the crowd of men around him) or drool over a women (even infront of her man) when shes wearing something tight and revieling.

Notice how most female heros always wear somehting provocative. Or how music videos have scantely clad women even if the artist is a woman.

I feel uncomfortable with women who wear shirts or tops. I encourage all women to talk to me topless.

[RedEyeJedi]

I get the feeling that him saying he encourages women is like someone asking your wife to take her top off. They probaly think hes a pervert.

And who ever said they are respected when wearing a bikini you gotta be joking right?

Ive never met one man who didnt say one comment (to the crowd of men around him) or drool over a women (even infront of her man) when shes wearing something tight and revieling.

Notice how most female heros always wear somehting provocative. Or how music videos have scantely clad women even if the artist is a woman.

I feel uncomfortable with women who wear shirts or tops. I encourage all women to talk to me topless.

I found the bikini commanding respect quite funny as well. Sry Michelle. A lot of women don't really know how men think. We've had a lifetime of learning to hide it.

Edited October 8, 2006 by RedEyeJedi

[Michelle]

Guys, I didn't say a bikini commanded respect, I said I was treated with respect.

And, obviously, you don't hear what the ladies say behind your back, whether it be respectful or an insult!

I'm well aware of what men think, because most of my best friends are men and they have very little problem talking to me or in front of me...especially when they get a buzz.

I do keep their secrets from their wives and girlfriends so that I can stay in the loop.

You say that like men don't strut their stuff.

'wipes tears'

Edited October 8, 2006 by Michelle

[Radian]

Hanging executed young women from a crane and beheading people in public. (for having sex-again, simply *****-up)

-Once again, have you seen this kind of punishment? and correction,it's not for having sex, it's for having sex without being married. And once you proved that you only know what's on the surface.And I want to point this out, do you feel proud when you lose your virginity? That is so wrong.In my country which consists of many races and religions but it is a country in which Islam is the national teligion, people would feel guilty and ashamed if they lose their virginity before marriage but your country is vice versa, right? Why feel proud if you lose your virginity before marriage? You will also lose your self worth and dignity.

-Lastly, I want to say that you are the one who's paranoid not us.

No one is paranoid-- But, you do mention something that is extremely important....You have to understand WNF that these {JUSTIFIED} acts as you sum them up, or not justified at ALL according most of the western world & what we feel is morally/legally RIGHT.

-- This point you make, and very clearly, to support this punishment for that crime, to most, is the epitome of evil. That's our core difference. And yes it's a big one indeed. -- As strongly as you feel it's right we feel just as strongly it's wrong- cruel- not to mention it's extremely discriminative towards women.

No one feels proud in losing their virginity, WNF. You reap those repercussions, yes!, but in a personal, spiritual way. To us, or those who believe, that is between her and her GOD!

---Our bible teaches virginity and the precious gifts it offers; Marriage, and how marriage should stay pure without infidelity. Our bible is enough of a bible however to let that person decide for herself. If she decides to hold her head down in sorrowful shame she had an affair, lost virgintiy whatever, she loses her self worth or dignity as you put it, isn't that her loss? Intrapersonally, isn't her own pain? Why cut the life from her as well? The victim here is the woman, the female. The husband is involved true, but scratches don't justify amputations. You do acknowledge divorce. --

[Cinders]

We recently watched that BBC documentary called "Execution of a Teenage Girl"

Needless to say, I was appauled, I cried, I was furious, and wishing there was a way I could have taken the girl to come live here with us.

At the end of this sad video, it shows these messages:

and this

And the MARRIED man that "raped" this child was AT HER EXECUTION!

Bloody freakin jerk!

I would have hung him by his BALLZ if she were my child..

I guess I am sort of like that character Sally Field played as a mother of a daughter who was raped then killed in that one excellent 1996 movie called "Eye for an Eye"

[__Kratos__]

^ That aspect of their law I just don't understand...just so wrong.

Though, I do like their eye for an eye concept. Recently in Iran a man blinded one eye of another man in a fight so... The courts ordered the guy must lose his left eye. I'd post a source but it's kind of graphic for the forum.

[Radian]

And the MARRIED man that "raped" this child was AT HER EXECUTION!

Bloody freakin jerk!

I would have hung him by his BALLZ if she were my child..

I guess I am sort of like that character Sally Field played as a mother of a daughter who was raped then killed in that one excellent 1996 movie called "Eye for an Eye"

Over the summer in Iran there were two girls on trial (related), both were gang raped by these heathens, and they too (victims), were executed for their "crimes." 13 and 16. One, I vaguely remember was executed not just for the sexual activity (right), I mind you, but because she stabbed one of these heathens while defending her and her cousin....she stabbed him on the hand..

[RedEyeJedi]

No one is paranoid-- But, you do mention something that is extremely important....You have to understand WNF that these {JUSTIFIED} acts as you sum them up, or not justified at ALL according most of the western world & what we feel is morally/legally RIGHT.

I don't wnf was justifying these executions. She was clarifying the circumstances as reported by someone else. I didn't get the impression she was justifying anything, but rather changed the subject.

I saw that programme as well. It was terrible. There was actually some sort of corruption involved. Her age was reported as 22 when she was 16 and her execution was sped up for some reason.

[wnf]

I wasn't trying to change the subject.If you think I wasn't justifying anything, then didn't you think that I was only trying to stand up for my religion?As I said before, I don't like to argue but my posts are merely about doing my responsibility as a muslim to defend my beliefs.Moreover, now is the Ramadhan month, so I feel more responsible to do that.And I respect all of you non-muslims' opinions about my religion.I can't expect you to like Islam.But don't make it sound like a statement or a fact that Islam is a horrible religion.

[wnf]

If you really are a teenager then you have your whole life ahead of you, don't waste it on some religion that was, like most religions, was created to control people.

That's why I have to be more religious and faithful to my God.Because I'm a teenager and during teenage years you will get so many distractions and obsticles.Who knows tommorow I might die? It doesn't matter if you don't believe in God or any religion but I'll stay true to Islam till I die.

And, God made us.Don't you think it's fair that we should be faithful and worship our creator? He gave us life and we should be thankful.The purpose of God sending prophets is to lead humans back to the right path.People who stay faithful to God despite all odds in this world will get a huge reward after he or she dies, which is eternal life in Heaven.And people who don't will go to hell.And I just want to say that I have a lot of non-muslim friends and one of them asked me why did I start wearing a head scarf and I looked nicer without the head scarf.I told her that it's a must in my religion and she undertsands.My point is that we must have tolerance among ourselves, despite having different cultures and beliefs.

[RedEyeJedi]

I was sort of trying to stand up for you. I was saying that you were not justifying the execution that they are talking about.

[Stellar]

And, God made us.

No, god didnt make us.

He gave us life and we should be thankful.

Prove it.

Don't you think it's fair that we should be faithful and worship our creator? He gave us life and we should be thankful.The purpose of God sending prophets is to lead humans back to the right path.People who stay faithful to God despite all odds in this world will get a huge reward after he or she dies, which is eternal life in Heaven.And people who don't will go to hell.

Funny how you say this and then talk about tolerance. Tolerance means accepting other peoples beliefs, it means accepting that you may not know "the truth" and you shouldnt suggest that you do know "the truth" and that your belief is fact.

[RedEyeJedi]

...it means accepting that you may not know "the truth" and you shouldnt suggest that you do know "the truth" and that your belief is fact.

Errr.... but then surely that means you don't really 'believe' it, doesn't it??