Across Europe, Worries on Islam Spread to

[odas]

Kratos, by more west do you mean Germany-Hitler, Spain-Franco, Italy - Mussolini, France-Le Pen ( who is complaining about too many blacks and moslems in the National Soccer Team)?

Lizard, I agree with your concerns about moslems complaining about pictures of Mohamed.

However, there is a difference between a holy figure like Jesus, Mohamed, Moses and Albert Einstein.

But I do understsnd your point, you just gave a bad example.

Arabic moslems should start more respecting other views.

There is the difference between a Bosnian ( european ) moslem and an Asian moslem.

We both read the same Quran and have the same believe, but we act differently.

Kratos, like it or not, bosnian moslems grew up with the Sex Pistols, Madona, Kiss....

Oh no wait, I should not have mention that. It is disturbing to the profill. I will edit it.

Sorry.

[__Kratos__]

Kratos, by more west do you mean Germany-Hitler, Spain-Franco, Italy - Mussolini, France-Le Pen ( who is complaining about too many blacks and moslems in the National Soccer Team)?

Lizard, I agree with your concerns about moslems complaining about pictures of Mohamed.

However, there is a difference between a holy figure like Jesus, Mohamed, Moses and Albert Einstein.

But I do understsnd your point, you just gave a bad example.

Arabic moslems should start more respecting other views.

There is the difference between a Bosnian ( european ) moslem and an Asian moslem.

We both read the same Quran and have the same believe, but we act differently.

Kratos, like it or not, bosnian moslems grew up with the Sex Pistols, Madona, Kiss....

Oh no wait, I should not have mention that. It is disturbing to the profill. I will edit it.

Sorry.

Awww... Poor Odas. Every country has a colorful past. Digging them up to throw is amusing to me.

Good for them? If they're soo much part of western culture then why are they not in the street protesting their Muslim brothers and sisters that are slaughtering people everyday? They sure got in the streets quickly when Muhammad got drawn in a cartoon.

So killing little innocent children is not a big deal, but having a cartoon of a man is? It makes you wonder...

[odas]

Awww... Poor Odas. Every country has a colorful past. Digging them up to throw is amusing to me.

Good for them? If they're soo much part of western culture then why are they not in the street protesting their Muslim brothers and sisters that are slaughtering people everyday? They sure got in the streets quickly when Muhammad got drawn in a cartoon.

So killing little innocent children is not a big deal, but having a cartoon of a man is? It makes you wonder...

Poor Kratos, how little you know.

Bosnias muslims WHERE the first to go to the streets against terrorism.

Bosnian muslims WHERE the first to protest on the streets after Sept 11 2001 calling to stop the maddnes in the world.

Bosninan soldiers ARE in Irak, fighting along Americans.

Oh I should edit this one too, again it kills the profil, damn.

In future, Kratos, if you wanna post something then you should try to get familiar with the country you are mentioning.

Bosnia is small for an ignorant racist, but it is big enough to welcome every good person.

[odas]

One more thing, Kratos.

If you are such a patriot, why are YOU not in Irack fighting the damn Islamics?

Maybe you could switch with an other American soldier who'd like to see his family and also to check out how it is being a Keyboard patriot.

Edited October 14, 2006 by odas

[__Kratos__]

Poor Kratos, how little you know.

Bosnias muslims WHERE the first to go to the streets against terrorism.

Bosnian muslims WHERE the first to protest on the streets after Sept 11 2001 calling to stop the maddnes in the world.

Bosninan soldiers ARE in Irak, fighting along Americans.

Oh I should edit this one too, again it kills the profil, damn.

In future, Kratos, if you wanna post something then you should try to get familiar with the country you are mentioning.

Bosnia is small for an ignorant racist, but it is big enough to welcome every good person.

I don't believe I mentioned Bosnia besides talking about that guys home. If they were in the streets... Great. It's a step forward compared to a lot of the Islamic world.

One more thing, Kratos.

If you are such a patriot, why are YOU not in Irack fighting the damn Islamics?

Maybe you could switch with an other American soldier who'd like to see his family and also to check out how it is being a Keyboard patriot.

'Cause I got screwed over by the military.

[Lord Umbarger]

There are peopel who are too old or too young to join the military as well as others who are not fit to serve. It doesn't take away from the fact that they may well wish that they could.

Before this deteriorates into another "Bash the War" thread, let me remind a couple of our members, when they left thier birthplace, thier families could have gone anywhere in the world, including islamic nations. They chose to settle in a land that was not ruled by muslem law. Before they bash too heavily they should remember that they had the choice to live in an Islamic Nations and chose otherwise.

If Islamic culture is the shinning beacon of light, as so many would have us believe, why then, when given a choice, do they invariably choose a western nation? If islam is the be all end all of goodness and peace, why live in a western nation, the exact opposite of islamic law? Could it be that faith based muslem cultures are not as advanced, tolerant of others or as comfortable?

Basically, I guess that my question could be summed up like this... If islam offers a better way, why willingly move to a nation that is as culturelly opposite to islam as a culture can be?

Just wondering.......

[odas]

There are peopel who are too old or too young to join the military as well as others who are not fit to serve. It doesn't take away from the fact that they may well wish that they could.

Before this deteriorates into another "Bash the War" thread, let me remind a couple of our members, when they left thier birthplace, thier families could have gone anywhere in the world, including islamic nations. They chose to settle in a land that was not ruled by muslem law. Before they bash too heavily they should remember that they had the choice to live in an Islamic Nations and chose otherwise.

If Islamic culture is the shinning beacon of light, as so many would have us believe, why then, when given a choice, do they invariably choose a western nation? If islam is the be all end all of goodness and peace, why live in a western nation, the exact opposite of islamic law? Could it be that faith based muslem cultures are not as advanced, tolerant of others or as comfortable?

Basically, I guess that my question could be summed up like this... If islam offers a better way, why willingly move to a nation that is as culturelly opposite to islam as a culture can be?

Just wondering.......

Keep on wondering. How about I WAS BORN AND GREW UP IN THE WEST?

Man, what do you guys have in mind with "the west"? Bosnia is in the west.

I do not share the same CULTURE with the east, bu I do share the same RELIGION with many of them. Is it so hard to understand?

Take a lesson in Geography and religious demography together with some european history before you post posts like that.

[Iblis]

Keep on wondering. How about I WAS BORN AND GREW UP IN THE WEST?

Man, what do you guys have in mind with "the west"? Bosnia is in the west.

I do not share the same CULTURE with the east, bu I do share the same RELIGION with many of them. Is it so hard to understand?

Take a lesson in Geography and religious demography together with some european history before you post posts like that.

Thnx Odas for that simple and brilliant answer. It explains everything to those who don't understand!

Edited October 16, 2006 by _JTM_

[Roj47]

I thought Bosnia was a Balkan state?

[Lord Umbarger]

In all likelihood, you were not spontaniously generated. You probably had parents. At some point in history, someone who came before you left thier homeland and had to pick another place to live. They chose the West. Perhaps I'm a little misleading when I refer to the "West". I mean places that exhibit western culture and ideas. This would not discribe China or Saudi Arabia but it would discribe nations such as the U.S. and Great Britain.

I did use the phrase"When they left thier brthplace". I misunderstood you. I assumed that you were implying that you were born there.

Other than that, my point still stands. Somewhere back in your liniage someone left home and came here. When my ancesters left Germany, they could've gone anywhere in the world; South America, Australia.... They chose to come here. Life in the U.S. was better than where they were so they came here. Likewise with your ancesters.

We eventually blended in. I don't wonder the streets in "lederhousin", (Hell, I can't even spell it), and I don't expect the laws to accept my desire to drink massive quanities of beer and play the tuba!

I am Jewish. I have no desire to make Burger King stop selling Cheese Burgers and bacon biscuits. I just don't buy or eat such things. I live a perfectly acceptable American life and even chuckle along with the X-tians when Archie Bunker refers to those "Heebs". I don't go rioting in the streets demanding the culture change.

The United States is a wonderfully fair nation. We disrespect all religeons equally and nobody expects to see a blood bath at the local Catholic church because of the Pope and his senile ramblings.

The tolling of the church bells, that we still hear in my hometown are not a reimnder that I'm not a X-tian, just a reminder that it's getting closer to "Go-Home-Time". Seeing someone wear a cross at the local airport is not an offence to me. Being forced to listen to someone elses call to prayer five times a day, every day is not a religeous offence to me but, it is NOT part of the greater American culture.

[Mekorig]

The tolling of the church bells, that we still hear in my hometown are not a reimnder that I'm not a X-tian, just a reminder that it's getting closer to "Go-Home-Time". Seeing someone wear a cross at the local airport is not an offence to me. Being forced to listen to someone elses call to prayer five times a day, every day is not a religeous offence to me but, it is NOT part of the greater American culture.

Sorry to disapointo you, but the tolling of the bells is to call the people to the chruch, much like the call to pray of the muslims. That the modern society have changed its meaning to mark the hours is other thig. Tolling of bells, call to pray, its all the same. What happens is that you want that to be part of the "great american culture", has people in the beggining of the 20 century doenst wanted the italians and the irish to be part of the same.

Lord Umbarger, under a face of knoledge and undertanding, you have the same feeling that a lot of people in the past. Fear to the new and unknow things.

[__Kratos__]

Fear to the new and unknow things.

Could be the fact that people don't want to learn or even accept present culture in any shape or form.

In recent years my area has been flood from Laos immigrants who are hmong. Many don't speak english, are poor, have many children, reject a lot the community despite all the help they were given and still have yet to get into any sort of groove in America. Now you see in parts little asian gangs wandering around in groups weilding knifes and sometimes swords just randomly fighting. I see them and their families and wonder why they came to America in the first place if they didn't want to be part of the community.

Seemly a lot of what Islam is creating/doing in cultures.

If I were to move to Italy for example, I would embrace their culture and learn their language while also keeping my own. But I wouldn't alienate myself by thumbing them and their culture.

[Lord Umbarger]

Sorry to disapointo you, but the tolling of the bells is to call the people to the chruch, much like the call to pray of the muslims

It was originally a call to prayer in many places. It was also a call to class in many small town schools. Bells have been used as dingy locaters in the fog and also as markers of time. Here, where I live it is still used as both on Sundays, a call to prayer and a clock. During the week, there are no baptist services in the middle of the days. The bells chime from 0700 until 1900 everyhour, on the hour, everyday.

"That the modern society have changed its meaning to mark the hours is other thig."

One could go into a long dialog about the origins of things. Just because writting was developed as a means of determining who owned a cow doesn't mean that we have not developed a myriad other uses for it. Are you aware that the first true canons were crafted from bells? Not melted down, but, packed with black powder and lit through a hole in the back. If you heard that sound ringing out, you would be well advised to pray but, it is not in and of itself a call to prayer.

Nonetheless, the U.S was founded primarly to be a somewhat X-tian nation. We have of course, moved away from that in many ways. Some for good, some for bad. We stillput up X-mas lights every year but, even though a growing many of us are not X-tians, we would still miss the tradition.

I don't know that "fear of change" accurately describes the desire to remain a western nation. Perhaps it would be a more apropriate discription of some Middle Eastern nations that will not allow X-tians to distribute their literature in the streets.

Edited October 16, 2006 by Lord Umbarger

[Bella-Angelique]

Wow, doesn't every nation want to regress into a third world dirt hole full of anarchy or fundementalism and death? What is there not to like about that?

[Lord Umbarger]

True, I've always dreamed of being a dirt farmer... watching the little dirt clumps blossum under the blazing sun. Just think of all the good times we could have around a fire of old paintings, concidering that images of the human form are agains the sharia.

Maybe I can get stoned to death for tresspassing into the sky, and polluting the realm of Allah, too!

Ah, yeah, good times.

Edited October 16, 2006 by Lord Umbarger

[odas]

In all likelihood, you were not spontaniously generated. You probably had parents. At some point in history, someone who came before you left thier homeland and had to pick another place to live. They chose the West. Perhaps I'm a little misleading when I refer to the "West". I mean places that exhibit western culture and ideas. This would not discribe China or Saudi Arabia but it would discribe nations such as the U.S. and Great Britain.

I did use the phrase"When they left thier brthplace". I misunderstood you. I assumed that you were implying that you were born there.

Other than that, my point still stands. Somewhere back in your liniage someone left home and came here. When my ancesters left Germany, they could've gone anywhere in the world; South America, Australia.... They chose to come here. Life in the U.S. was better than where they were so they came here. Likewise with your ancesters.

We eventually blended in. I don't wonder the streets in "lederhousin", (Hell, I can't even spell it), and I don't expect the laws to accept my desire to drink massive quanities of beer and play the tuba!

I am Jewish. I have no desire to make Burger King stop selling Cheese Burgers and bacon biscuits. I just don't buy or eat such things. I live a perfectly acceptable American life and even chuckle along with the X-tians when Archie Bunker refers to those "Heebs". I don't go rioting in the streets demanding the culture change.

The United States is a wonderfully fair nation. We disrespect all religeons equally and nobody expects to see a blood bath at the local Catholic church because of the Pope and his senile ramblings.

The tolling of the church bells, that we still hear in my hometown are not a reimnder that I'm not a X-tian, just a reminder that it's getting closer to "Go-Home-Time". Seeing someone wear a cross at the local airport is not an offence to me. Being forced to listen to someone elses call to prayer five times a day, every day is not a religeous offence to me but, it is NOT part of the greater American culture.

Wrong Again. I told you to take some lessons.

My ancestors are bosnians, the bogumils ( they called themself the good christians ), who were under constant pressure of the Vatikan to convert to Catholicism.

Along with the french Cathars and Merovignans, my ancestors were classified heretics.

In around 1420 when the Osmanic Empire conquered Bosnia, my ancestors converted to Islam so about 600 years ago.

My family is in bosnia at least 1500.

According to your statement, only because of my religion my ancestors might have been from the East? hahahahhahahahahaha.

I am a white caucasion with a slavic background, my religion is Islam and my family is in southwest europe since 1500 years.

How long have you or your family been in the West? hahahahahahahahaha.

Edited October 16, 2006 by odas

[odas]

Other than that, my point still stands. Somewhere back in your liniage someone left home and came here. When my ancesters left Germany, they could've gone anywhere in the world; South America, Australia.... They chose to come here. Life in the U.S. was better than where they were so they came here

As a Jewish family I can understand why your family emigrated from Germany, I would guess sometimes in the late 1920'

You should be able to understand then why I emigrated from Bosnia. To save the lives of my children.

Nazis were killing Jews only because they were Jews.

Serbs were killing bosnian moslems only because they were moslems.

The late great Simon Wiesenthal was the first to say that what is happening in bosnia is another Holocoust, this time on inocent moslems.

So, why do I live in Canada now?

Because it is closer to my culture then Arabia.

Simple as that.

[Al Bundy]

Hi Odas and JTM!

Cheers mates!

You have spoken true words my brothers!

[odas]

Hi Odas and JTM!

Cheers mates!

You have spoken true words my brothers!

One for all...

[Michelle]

It's sad that the world thinks of everyone as us and them...

[__Kratos__]

How long have you or your family been in the West?

The west is more commonly used to describe non-Islam and modern day countries. Islamic states often use this term in speeches and their rants.

Peace Be Unto Him

"History is a nightmare from which I am trying to awake." -- James Joyce

If you want to spend a depressing afternoon, try flipping through Robert Spencer's The Truth About Muhammad. It's not a long read, but when you're through you'll have an idea of the monumental task awaiting the West.

Unlike the founders of other religions, whose lives are often shrouded in legend and mystery, Muhammad's rise took place -- as 19th century French scholar Ernest Renan put it -- "in the full light of history." Muhammad himself dictated the Koran. There are numerous other accounts of his life, both from people who knew him personally and from the hadith, a collection of "sayings of the prophet" that scholars collected shortly after his death. There is no great mystery about who Muhammad was or what he stood for. The only mystery is why the West has so much difficulty in recognizing it.

Muhammad was a warlord, pure and simple. He roused a disorganized group of nomadic tribes into a ruthless, fearless army. During his lifetime, he conquered the Arabian Peninsula and his followers eventually extended those conquests from Spain to India. By all rights, he should take his place in history among of Alexander the Great, Genghis Kahn, and Tamerlane the Great as early history's great military leaders.

The difference is that Muhammad was also a prophet -- or maybe just a bit of a psychopath. Probably illiterate, he was nevertheless extremely familiar with Jewish and Christian doctrines that prevailed throughout the Middle East. Realizing that people would not be won over unless they abandoned their religion, Muhammad reinterpreted these faiths, styling them all as forerunners and himself as the "Last Prophet," come to replace both.

Beginning in middle age, Muhammad heard the voice of god -- Allah -- almost daily. His followers took notes and these transcriptions were eventually compiled into the Koran. As Spencer points out, Allah's dictates often went into strange detail and had an uncanny way of aligning themselves with The Prophet's desires. When Muhammad decided to take his own son's young bride for his wife, for example, Allah expressed approval. When several of Muhammad's wives ganged up on him because of his philandering, Allah gave him permission to divorce them -- a Koranic passage that still governs divorce in Muslim societies today.

But it's worse than that. Where Allah and Muhammad occasionally disagreed, Allah was actually more harsh -- a kind of Freudian superego regurgitating the grim fantasies of early childhood. In several instances, Muhammad was ready to forgive his rivals and enemies but Allah wouldn't let him. Instead, they had to be beheaded.

What has survived from Muhammad's eventful life, then, is not just a record of his conquests but a philosophy, a religion, a set of personal attitudes that prevails among more than a billion people of the world today. Those attitudes are not very friendly. Briefly, they prescribe that might makes right, that forgiveness is a sign of weakness, and that no fate is too vile for those who reject the wisdom of The Prophet. Jihadists beheading their captives still quote Koranic scripture -- accurately -- today.

More than anything, Spencer's detailed analysis is a remarkable endorsement of Thomas Carlyle's idea that "History is the elongated shadow of great men." Say what you will about social and economic circumstances, about natural resources and geography, or even -- if you are to believe Jared Diamond's bizarre ramblings -- that climate is the determining factor of history, the fact remains that the ethos of every civilization can be traced to the historical actions of a few individuals.

Confucius was a hermetic scholar who set China on a path of family loyalty, submission to authority, and respect for learning. The authors of The Upanishads and the Bhagavad-Gita were Brahmin scholars who preached supreme detachment and caste divisions. Buddha was the Indian Prince Siddhartha who rebelled against the Hindu caste system but taught extreme patience and withdrawal from the world. Moses was a lawgiver who led his people out of bondage. Jesus was a prophet who taught personal responsibility and the forgiveness of sins. Muhammad was a warrior who led armies into battle and taught that the sword was a proper instrument for converting the unbelievers.

Granted, each of these founders often contradicted himself and the message of each has not always survived in its original purity. But each of these prophets set the tone of a civilization that still reverberates today. The tone of Islam, from its very beginnings, has been intolerance, conflict, and conquest. As a result, Islam now finds itself at war, not just with the West, but with every civilization on its borders. Of course this is everyone else's fault. Muslims are like the boy fighting with everyone in school whose mother comes to the principal's office wanting to know why everyone in the school is fighting with him!

Spencer uses one example after another to bring home the point. In a story from the 9th century hadith of Muhammad Ibn Ismail al-Bukahari, for example, Muhammad confronted a group of Jews about to punish a couple that had committed adultery. Asked to expound their own law, one of the rabbis then began to read from the Torah, but skipped a verse mandating stoning, covering it with his hand. Abdullah bin Salam, a rabbi who had converted to Islam, saw the trick.

"Lift your hand!" Abdullah cried, and the verse duly read, Muhammad exclaimed, "Woe to you Jews! What has induced you to abandon the judgment of God which you hold in your hand?" And he asserted: "I am the first to revive the order of God and His Book and to practice it."

Muhammad ordered the couple to be stoned to death; another Muslim remembered, "I saw the man leaning over the woman to shelter her from the stones."

Compare this to Jesus' prescription in an almost identical situation: "Ye who is without sin, let him cast the first stone."

Muhammad's story belongs to a period when, to quote Mark Twain, "History was one damned battle after another." Most of the world has left this era behind. The rise of civilization has been the history of people learning to live in peace and cooperate with each other on a wider and wider scale. All this requires that people forgive and forget, letting old grudges eventually recede into the past. Islam not only nurtures old grudges, it celebrates them. The Sunni and the Shi'ia are still fighting over the death of Hussein, Muhammad's grandson, at the Battle of Karbala in 680 A.D.

The fruit of Jesus' teaching of tolerance and forgiveness is that Western Civilization has been able to prosper while Islam remains locked in an era of primordial combat. Certainly we have had our wars and religious conflicts, but the overall trend has been toward cooperation and civilization -- especially in America, a land where much of history is virtually forgotten. Confucianism, Buddhism, Hinduism, and the great Eastern religions are also proving that they can prepare people for the modern world.

So why can't we make it clear to Muslims that it is time to forget the desert morality of the 7th century? For one thing, the people defending Western Civilization don't seem very familiar with its accomplishments. Last week the New York Times recounted how the Dutch government is introducing Muslim immigrants to Western values by showing them a DVD of "topless women and two men kissing" ("Across Europe, Worries on Islam Spread to Center," October 11). What would you think of a country that introduced itself by flaunting its pornography? Does the word "decadent" come to mind?

Robert Spencer has outlined the situation very clearly:

The words and deeds of Muhammad have been moving Muslims to commit acts of violence for fourteen hundred years now. They are not going to disappear in our lifetimes; nor can they be negotiated away.

Islam is just as violent and conquest-oriented as the jihadists say it is. The question is not whether Islamic values are incompatible with ours. The question is whether we are going to assert our own values -- or let decadence and submission lead the way.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't agree with the pro-Christian stuff in there to a point but it's showing why people are speaking up and looking at Islam in the light.