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Cadetak

What Is The Christian View On The Dinosaur?

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controlsx2

The existence of dinosaurs in the earths history contradicts the events in the bible. In the Genisis stories God created earth with modern day animals.

I'm looking for the "oficial" christian explanation on this. I didn't post this in the Skeptic forum because I'm trying to start that debate...just an answer if there is one and if there is not maybe a debate between christians(or bible historians).

Maybe the 7 days arnt actully days just a metaphor for a period of time could be hundereds of thousands of years and i think thebible stats animals were made a day before man [not sure] witch could be a few thousand or millions of years and thus explaining dinosaurs and otehr animals that were before man i cannot swear on this as i have no idea and would like to know what they think it just we has this debate in RE today and this is what came to my head then

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Jor-el

one big problem with christians and their religion is that they try to associate everything with their faith. anything they cant find a solution or answer for, they use their religion as an excuse and this juz screws everything up and makes it all the more ridiculous.

It is not helpful at all to make broad and sweeping statements of this nature, since you're not exactly contributing anything to the discussion but are instead using this forum to express your bias.

If you could be more specific then we could discuss exactly what your objections are within the context of this threads subject.

Edited by Jor-el

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Jor-el

Maybe the 7 days arnt actully days just a metaphor for a period of time could be hundereds of thousands of years and i think thebible stats animals were made a day before man [not sure] witch could be a few thousand or millions of years and thus explaining dinosaurs and otehr animals that were before man i cannot swear on this as i have no idea and would like to know what they think it just we has this debate in RE today and this is what came to my head then

Here we go again, read the posts from thr beginning please, this has been discussed at least 3 times.

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draconic chronicler

I'm a christian and as such have no difficulties in seeing your point of view but that still leaves us with ananwered questions. There is no conspiracy to erradicate this view from christianity since that would mean an active debate in christian circles to the validity of your arguments.

There is none mainly because this line of reasoning doesn't enter most peoples heads when they consider gods servants (angels). This is the 1st time I have encountered this argument and don't have a problem with it as long as you provide me with the studies that show us where our interpretation went wrong. If any person who speaks hebrew has this interpretation then show me written twexts by hebrew scholars stating their reasoning.

Just don't tell me that you have based all this on the very few occurences in the bible where Seraphim are mentioned. That is not enough to interpret things the way you do.

There is much more than just what I have stated here. It fills an over 500 page book. These dragons appear in much other ancient Hebrew and Christian scriptures that are not included in the current Bible.

Jews generally don't have a problem with this. They take it completely for granted that the highest heavenly servants are dragons. As I have already said, they name their helicopters after these creatures, and depict them as winged dragons painted on the sides of the helipopters..

It is only modern Christians that have a hang up about this becasue of their incredible egos and arrogance. This is why they refuse to believe in evolution as well. They cannot accept reptiles being the highest heavenly servants any more than they can accept we are descendents of ape-like primates.

There most certainly is a conspiracy. Every Bible dictionary that portrays the Seraphim as Angels deny the orginal meaning in Hebrew, as well as even Ancient Egyptian. Every piece of chruch artwork in which the seraphim or Cherubim have a human form are also a lie. No angel in the bible has wings.

These theologians cannot ignore the fact the ancient Jews and Christians both translated SEraphim to Drakones, and potrayed them as serpents or dragons guarding the throne of God in heaven and devouring sinners in judgement scenes. They have known these things for centuries but don't want the "common man" to know.

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IamsSon

There is much more than just what I have stated here. It fills an over 500 page book. These dragons appear in much other ancient Hebrew and Christian scriptures that are not included in the current Bible.

Jews generally don't have a problem with this. They take it completely for granted that the highest heavenly servants are dragons. As I have already said, they name their helicopters after these creatures, and depict them as winged dragons painted on the sides of the helipopters..

It is only modern Christians that have a hang up about this becasue of their incredible egos and arrogance. This is why they refuse to believe in evolution as well. They cannot accept reptiles being the highest heavenly servants any more than they can accept we are descendents of ape-like primates.

There most certainly is a conspiracy. Every Bible dictionary that portrays the Seraphim as Angels deny the orginal meaning in Hebrew, as well as even Ancient Egyptian. Every piece of chruch artwork in which the seraphim or Cherubim have a human form are also a lie. No angel in the bible has wings.

These theologians cannot ignore the fact the ancient Jews and Christians both translated SEraphim to Drakones, and potrayed them as serpents or dragons guarding the throne of God in heaven and devouring sinners in judgement scenes. They have known these things for centuries but don't want the "common man" to know.

draconic, you are making a huge assumption about what Christians have a hang up about. I think another Christian on this thread has pointed out this is not a huge topic withing Christian circles and most would probably think it's just interesting, not blasphemous or anything.

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Jor-el

draconic, you are making a huge assumption about what Christians have a hang up about. I think another Christian on this thread has pointed out this is not a huge topic withing Christian circles and most would probably think it's just interesting, not blasphemous or anything.

I heartily agree!

As for theologians and bible dictionaries being subverted I gave you an example of one such that agreed with you. The problem is not in agreeing with you. I am willing to accept what you say, what we would like is for you to give the titles to some of those 500 pages which you say the information would fill. What other books on this subject exist?

As for the artists who painted angels, they are artists and as such have what we all refer to as poetic license. The problem is that you now have a culture that has this image ingrained in its psyche, and that will be hard to fight. It is not a conspiracy! It isn't as important to christians one way or another. They are the servants of God and his messengers, we are simply made to serve him and be his friend. Whether they are dragons or another type of beast is indifferent.

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Cadetak

I'm confused are we saying that angels are dragons?

I'm fine with that theory i'm just not sure whats going on.

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IamsSon

I'm confused are we saying that angels are dragons?

I'm fine with that theory i'm just not sure whats going on.

I think we are saying that some order of angelic beings may be dragons or may be linked with dragons in the same way that some military units are linked to lions, eagles, gryphons, etc. After all, the Bible does mention that the angels are set up in some sort of rank structure.

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draconic chronicler

I think we are saying that some order of angelic beings may be dragons or may be linked with dragons in the same way that some military units are linked to lions, eagles, gryphons, etc. After all, the Bible does mention that the angels are set up in some sort of rank structure.

The Bible is very specific guy. The winged heavenly servant creatures in the bible are referred to as creatures, dragons, or by their offices (Seraphim Cherubim, or Destroyers). Angels are not called creatures because they are simply humans given eternal life. This is why they are mistaken for regular men and why the Bible says they must eat food to survive, even in Heaven. Also, these creatures are clearly referred to as eating humans, both in the Bible, and in more detail in other ancient Judao Christian scriptures. Even Moses, like Jonah was temporarily swallowed by a heavenly dragon becasue he did not circumcise his son. So your notion that the dragon was a symbol of a formation of angels has absolutely no scriptual substance. The seraphim were translated to dragons by both the ancient Christians and Jews, and both cultures depicted dragons surrounding the throne of God in their artwork. They never would have done this if anyone back then believed they were just angels in the "dragon battalion", which is downright silly. Satan is called a dragon, and Jesus warned his disciples that he sought to devour them (the consequences if they sinned), not because it was some silly metaphor, but becasue he really is a dragon, like the 200 million that are supposed to wipe out a third of the human race in Revelation (or in the original text this was based upon).

The original Genesis story from Sumeria, written down over a thousand years before the garbled version passed down by Hebrew shepherds, explain that the dragon servant of God was recruiting young men to become angels and offered this honor to Adape (who would later be called Adam). Others told him not to trust the dragon, so Adam refused the offer. There can be no doubt they were originaly the same story. For the dragon also guards the sacred trees in this garden, the gates of heaven and throne of God, exactly as the Cherubim would. In both stories Adam was not the first man, becasue later in Genesis Caine leaves Adam and Eve to live with "other men", nor was regular man supposed to be immmortal, Thats why we have reproductive organs, age, and die. Adam was offered eternal life, not because he was the first man, becasue man was evolving for millions of years as the fossil record proves. Instead, he was contacted by the dragon to become a heavenly servant, becasuse, while the much older dragon servants were very adept at devouring the unrighteous and raining fire and brimstone on their cities, they are not very good at delivering messages to humans becasue they are so terrifying. That's why God decided to "recruit" angels from mankind. It is all explained in greater detail, with much more historical precedents, in my upcoming book which should be out very soon now.

Edited by draconic chronicler

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M.A.D CapeBretoner

they were a failed attept of creation and had to be destroyed but out of the old came the new.

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IamsSon

The Bible is very specific guy. The winged heavenly servant creatures in the bible are referred to as creatures, dragons, or by their offices (Seraphim Cherubim, or Destroyers). Angels are not called creatures because they are simply humans given eternal life.

Where in the Bible is this found? I have never come across any passage that describes angles as men given eternal life.

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draconic chronicler

Where in the Bible is this found? I have never come across any passage that describes angles as men given eternal life.

Shouldn't it be obvious:

They have no wings and appear exactly like normal men (only the dragons have wings)

They must eat food to survive (in heaven they must eat manna)

They are only as strong as normal men (Jacob out wrestled one). Its the dragons that do the destroying, angels are only messengers as their name implies.

They can be raped by men (Lot feared for their safety in Sodom.)

They lusted after and impregnated human woman (creation of the Nephilim.

These are the REAL Angels of the Old Testmant, the only Holy scripture Jesus actually approved.

The Spirit Angels of the New Testament were created by the blending of the invisible daemon spirit creatures of Pagan Greek Theology (which contaminated Judaism at this time), and the flesh and blood angels of the old testament.

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IamsSon

Shouldn't it be obvious:

They have no wings and appear exactly like normal men (only the dragons have wings)

They must eat food to survive (in heaven they must eat manna)

They are only as strong as normal men (Jacob out wrestled one). Its the dragons that do the destroying, angels are only messengers as their name implies.

They can be raped by men (Lot feared for their safety in Sodom.)

They lusted after and impregnated human woman (creation of the Nephilim.

These are the REAL Angels of the Old Testmant, the only Holy scripture Jesus actually approved.

The Spirit Angels of the New Testament were created by the blending of the invisible daemon spirit creatures of Pagan Greek Theology (which contaminated Judaism at this time), and the flesh and blood angels of the old testament.

But that's a long way from proving they are humans offered immortality. Everything I have read in or about the Bible seems to indicate angels are different from man.

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Jor-el

The Bible is very specific guy. The winged heavenly servant creatures in the bible are referred to as creatures, dragons, or by their offices (Seraphim Cherubim, or Destroyers). Angels are not called creatures because they are simply humans given eternal life. This is why they are mistaken for regular men and why the Bible says they must eat food to survive, even in Heaven. Also, these creatures are clearly referred to as eating humans, both in the Bible, and in more detail in other ancient Judao Christian scriptures. Even Moses, like Jonah was temporarily swallowed by a heavenly dragon becasue he did not circumcise his son. So your notion that the dragon was a symbol of a formation of angels has absolutely no scriptual substance. The seraphim were translated to dragons by both the ancient Christians and Jews, and both cultures depicted dragons surrounding the throne of God in their artwork. They never would have done this if anyone back then believed they were just angels in the "dragon battalion", which is downright silly. Satan is called a dragon, and Jesus warned his disciples that he sought to devour them (the consequences if they sinned), not because it was some silly metaphor, but becasue he really is a dragon, like the 200 million that are supposed to wipe out a third of the human race in Revelation (or in the original text this was based upon).

The original Genesis story from Sumeria, written down over a thousand years before the garbled version passed down by Hebrew shepherds, explain that the dragon servant of God was recruiting young men to become angels and offered this honor to Adape (who would later be called Adam). Others told him not to trust the dragon, so Adam refused the offer. There can be no doubt they were originaly the same story. For the dragon also guards the sacred trees in this garden, the gates of heaven and throne of God, exactly as the Cherubim would. In both stories Adam was not the first man, becasue later in Genesis Caine leaves Adam and Eve to live with "other men", nor was regular man supposed to be immmortal, Thats why we have reproductive organs, age, and die. Adam was offered eternal life, not because he was the first man, becasue man was evolving for millions of years as the fossil record proves. Instead, he was contacted by the dragon to become a heavenly servant, becasuse, while the much older dragon servants were very adept at devouring the unrighteous and raining fire and brimstone on their cities, they are not very good at delivering messages to humans becasue they are so terrifying. That's why God decided to "recruit" angels from mankind. It is all explained in greater detail, with much more historical precedents, in my upcoming book which should be out very soon now.

Ok this is where I take exception to your comments. Angels are not human, they never were and never will be. That is basic theology 101. Humans in heaven do not eat manna either, that isn't in the bible at all. Don't twist things around for your benefit. Angels existed before humanity was created that is a given. The various orders of angels are described in the bible as well as a basic physical description of Seraphim and Cherubim, among others.

Although I may agree with you that at certain times Seraphim may actually transform themselves into Dragon like creatures that can be used by God for specific actions like vengeance and judgement, it is also not the way they are described in the bible. Do I actually have to go search for examples to show you this?

One thing is pressing a theory to a point so that others will understand, I will accept your biblical interpretation of Seraphim at face value, but it is also a given that Spiritual bodies in heaven are also physical and looking at Jesus' tranformed body after his resurrection and its capacities we had better equate it with the basic angelic physical properties. As such they can transform when needed. They can be dragons when needed and they can have human form with wings when needed. That! is also in the bible.

As for the ancient Sumerian legends your theories are based on, where can we see a copy of these legends, if you're writing abook you probably have them close at hand and in digital form. So give us a few excerpts from these legends. As for the bible, it is a different book altogether from these sumerian legends you speak about. is it not possible that their basic theology is also totally different?

Edited by Jor-el

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draconic chronicler

But that's a long way from proving they are humans offered immortality. Everything I have read in or about the Bible seems to indicate angels are different from man.

How can you say they are different? Everything I have said is taken directly from the Old Testament. How can an angel and a human produce offspring if they are not the same species? Magical mumbo jumbo? No. those actual accounts I cited prove that angels are merely immortal, or long lived men. Thats why they must ride dragons in Revelation, and in otehr Angelology accounts. They have no wings and cannot fly on their own.

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draconic chronicler

Wrong, Wrong Wrong, guy. The stuff you are spouting is "modern Christian mythoogy that has nothing to do with the Bible.

JOREL: Ok this is where I take exception to your comments. Angels are not human, they never were and never will be. That is basic theology 101. Humans in heaven do not eat manna either, that isn't in the bible at all. Don't twist things around for your benefit. Angels existed before humanity was created that is a given. The various orders of angels are described in the bible as well as a basic physical description of Seraphim and Cherubim, among others.

DRAC: Angels most certainly do eat manna and the Bible says so. Rather than dig through my notes now, just type manna into the Jewish Encyclopedia and it will tell you. How do you you think angls and humans could mate if they were not the same speciies. Basic Biology 101. And no, the only description of Seraphim is that they have wings and arms and their name in hebrew means fiery flying serpents and jews and christians translated this word into Dracones. That's the truth. Seraphim were always dragons, no ifs, buts, or maybes.

JOREL: Although I may agree with you that at certain times Seraphim may actually transform themselves into Dragon like creatures that can be used by God for specific actions like vengeance and judgement, it is also not the way they are described in the bible. Do I actually have to go search for examples to show you this?

DRAC You will never fin anything to contradicet waht I am saying in the real Bible, only in your distorted, "sunday school mythology" that has no basis in actual scripture.

JOREL One thing is pressing a theory to a point so that others will understand, I will accept your biblical interpretation of Seraphim at face value, but it is also a given that Spiritual bodies in heaven are also physical and looking at Jesus' tranformed body after his resurrection and its capacities we had better equate it with the basic angelic physical properties. As such they can transform when needed. They can be dragons when needed and they can have human form with wings when needed. That! is also in the bible.

DRAC: Jesus did not leave his physical body behind so what you are saying has no scriptural basis. Jesus did acknowledge ghosts/spirits, but these are not angels. They are the souls/spirtis of deceased persons. "Good" spirits may work for God as do angels, but an agnel is not a spirit in the real Bible. No humanoid angel in the Bible has wings, period. This is Christian mythology copied from pagan Greco Roman mythology.

JOREL As for the ancient Sumerian legends your theories are based on, where can we see a copy of these legends, if you're writing abook you probably have them close at hand and in digital form. So give us a few excerpts from these legends. As for the bible, it is a different book altogether from these sumerian legends you speak about. is it not possible that their basic theology is also totally different?

DRAC Of course they are the same strories. Abraham came from Ur where the stories originated. You can find the story yourself, The dragon's name is Nin-Gish-Zida and he guards the tree of life, and Adam was originally Adape. One site that has this I believe is called Bibleorigins.com. if I am not mistaken. Welcome to the "real Bible" they never told you about in Sunday school -- and you haven't heard anything yet!

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Jor-el

Wrong, Wrong Wrong, guy. The stuff you are spouting is "modern Christian mythology that has nothing to do with the Bible.

DRAC: Angels most certainly do eat manna and the Bible says so. Rather than dig through my notes now, just type manna into the Jewish Encyclopedia and it will tell you. How do you you think angls and humans could mate if they were not the same species. Basic Biology 101. And no, the only description of Seraphim is that they have wings and arms and their name in hebrew means fiery flying serpents and jews and christians translated this word into Dracones. That's the truth. Seraphim were always dragons, no ifs, buts, or maybes.

I did as you asked. I went to the Jewish Encyclopedia and searched the word manna. Absolutely nothing related to the topic at hand (dragons and eating manna in heaven) is to be found. I'll post the link:Jewish Encyclopedia.com - Manna

In relation to angels mating, the passage you are refering to is:

Genesis 6:1-4

The Flood

1 When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with [a] man forever, for he is mortal ; his days will be a hundred and twenty years."

4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

Sons of God here is interpreted in many different ways and only one of them is Angels, and specifically as fallen angels (angels expelled from heaven and no longer in the service of God) But it also the only occurence the bible of such a thing.

The Biblical name for angel, , meaning, according to derivation, simply "messenger," obtained the further signification of "angel" only through the addition of God's name, as ("angel of the Lord," or "angel of God" Zech. xii. 8). Other appellations are , or ("Sons of God," Gen. vi. 4; Job, i. 6 [R. V. v. 1]; Ps. xxix. 1 [R. V. margin]); and ("the Holy Ones" [perhaps equivalent to "fiery ones," "unapproachable"; see Holiness. K.], Ps. lxxxix. 6, 8 [R. V. 5, 7]).

Angels appear to man in the shape of human beings of extraordinary beauty, and are not at once recognized as angels (Gen. xviii. 2, xix. 5; Judges, vi. 17, xiii. 6; II Sam. xxix. 9); they fly through the air; they become invisible; sacrifices touched by them are consumed by fire; they disappear in sacrificial fire, like Elijah, who rode to heaven in a fiery chariot; and they appear in the flames of the thornbush (Gen. xvi. 13; Judges, vi. 21, 22; II Kings, ii. 11; Ex. iii. 2). They are pure and bright as heaven; consequently they are formed of fire and are encompassed by light (Job, xv. 15), as the Psalmist says (Ps. civ. 4, R. V.): "Who maketh winds his messengers; his ministers a flaming fire." Although they have intercourse with the daughters of men (Gen. vi.), and eat heavenly bread (Ps. lxxviii. 25), they are immaterial, not being subject to the limitations of time and space.

Angels are referred to in connection with their special missions; as, for instance, the "angel which hath redeemed," "an interpreter," "the angel that destroyed," "messenger of the covenant," "angel of his presence," and "a band of angels of evil" (Gen. xlviii. 16; Job, xxxiii. 23; II Sam. xxiv. 16; Mal. iii. 1; Isa. lxiii. 9; Ps. lxxviii. 49, R. V.). When, however, the heavenly host is regarded in its most comprehensive aspect, a distinction may be made between cherubim, seraphim, ḥayyot ("living creatures"), ofanim ("wheels"), and arelim (the meaning of which term is unknown). God is described as riding on the cherubim and as "the Lord of hosts, who dwelleth between the cherubim"; while the latter guard the way of the tree of life (I Sam. iv. 4, Ps. lxxx. 2, Gen. iii. 24). The seraphim are described by Isaiah (vi. 2) as having six wings; and Ezekiel describes the ḥayyot (Ezek. i. 5 et seq.) and ofanim as heavenly beings who carry God's throne.

For the full commentary see: Jewish Encyclopedia.com - Angeology

As for Seraphim this is what I found:

Class of heavenly beings, mentioned only once in the Old Testament, in a vision of the prophet Isaiah (vi. 2 et seq.). Isaiah saw several seraphim, their exact number not being given, standing before the throne of Yhwh. They were winged beings, each having six wings—two covering their faces, two covering their feet, and two for flying. The seraphim cry continually to each other, "Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory" (vi. 3). The "foundations of the thresholds" (R. V.) of the Temple were moved by the sound of their voices. One of the seraphim flew to Isaiah with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar, and with which he touched the lips of the prophet to purge him from sin. Isaiah gives no further description of the form and appearance of the seraphim; he apparently assumes that his readers are acquainted with them. Nevertheless, it may be concluded from the description that the seraphim were conceived as having human faces, human hands, and human voices. However, one should not too hastily conclude that the seraphim were winged human forms. At least this was not the original conception, although later Judaism pictured them so. The seraphim are frequently mentioned in the Book of Enoch (xx. 7, lxi. 10, lxxi. 7), where they are designated as δράκονες ("serpents"), and are always mentioned, in conjunction with the cherubim, as the heavenly creatures standing nearest to God. In Rev. iv. 6-8 four animals are pictured as standing near the throne of God; each has six wings, and, as in Isaiah, they sing the "Trisagion."

Meaning.

The passages cited furnish conclusive evidence against the idea, popular for a time, that the seraphim belong to the same category as angels. They have nothing whatever to do with the "messengers of God"; in the Jewish conception the two have always been distinguished. Dan. x. 13, the Book of Tobit, and other sources, afford information concerning a series of "chief" angels, but allusions to the seraphim are entirely lacking, and an etymological connection of the name "seraf" with the Arabic "sharif" (to be exalted or distinguished) is equally valueless.

On the other hand, there is a striking similarity between the seraphim and cherubim. Both are winged creatures, half human, half animal; both stand near the throne of God, and appear as its guardians; and, as has already been stated, they are always mentioned together in the Book of Enoch. This, however, by no means proves that the origin of the two was the same; it only shows that in later Jewish conception, as well as in the conception of the contemporaries of Isaiah, these two classes of heavenly beings were closely related.

Some authorities hold that the seraphim had their origin in the Egyptian "seref," a composite, winged creature, half lion and half eagle, which guarded graves, carried dead kings up to heaven, and transmittedprayers thither. The form and office of the seref, however, suggest rather the Jewish cherubim.

Babylonian Origin.

According to other investigators, the conception was of Babylonian origin. Friedrich Delitzsch and Hommel associate the seraphim with the Assyrian "sharrapu," a name which, in Canaan, designated the Babylonian fire-god Nergal. The seraphim, then, would be the flames in which this god manifested himself. An argument against this theory is that until now no one has been able to show that the word "seraph" was ever used as a name of a god. According to a third and more probable theory, the seraphim originally were serpents, as the name implies. Among many peoples of antiquity serpents played an important part in myth and folk-lore. For instance, there were Tiamat in the Babylonian legend of the Creation, and the Uræus serpent in Egypt. Consequently, since the Jews shared the superstitious ideas of surrounding nations in other respects, it should not be a matter of wonder if they adopted this notion as well. That the serpent filled a special rôle among them as a demoniacal being may be seen from the story of Adam's fall (Gen. iii.). In this connection the names "Dragon Spring" and "Serpent Pool" (places in the vicinity of Jerusalem) are worthy of being noted. A brazen serpent brings relief from the effects of the bite of the fiery serpents (Num. xxi. 9 et seq.) which Yhwh sent among his disobedient people in the wilderness. Isaiah (xiv. 29, xxx. 6) speaks of fiery, flying serpents and dragons; and a brazen serpent, Nehushtan, stood in the Temple at Jerusalem, and was an object of worship until the time of Hezekiah, who destroyed it as being idolatrous (II Kings xviii. 4 et seq.). The worship of Nehushtan was plainly a remnant of ancient superstition, and was reconciled with the worship of Yhwh by connecting Nehushtan with the scourge of snakes in the wilderness and the rescue from them (Num. xxi. 9 et seq.). Therefore the theory seems possible, even probable, that the seraphim have their counterpart in the flying serpents of Isaiah (comp. also II Esd. xv. 29). It is only natural that these winged guardians of Yhwh's throne were soon ranked as higher beings and invested with the human form or with some features of the human body; and it was because of the very fact that they were adopted into the Yhwh cult that they were, in process of time, ennobled and spiritualized.E. G. H. I.

Ok, I take back what I said, but you could have provided the link when I asked, you know.

The only item that I have doubts with is in relation to manna. In this the dictionary didn't help your interpretation at all.

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draconic chronicler

I did as you asked. I went to the Jewish Encyclopedia and searched the word manna. Absolutely nothing related to the topic at hand (dragons and eating manna in heaven) is to be found. I'll post the link:Jewish Encyclopedia.com - Manna

In relation to angels mating, the passage you are refering to is:

Genesis 6:1-4

The Flood

1 When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with [a] man forever, for he is mortal ; his days will be a hundred and twenty years."

4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

Sons of God here is interpreted in many different ways and only one of them is Angels, and specifically as fallen angels (angels expelled from heaven and no longer in the service of God) But it also the only occurence the bible of such a thing.

The Biblical name for angel, , meaning, according to derivation, simply "messenger," obtained the further signification of "angel" only through the addition of God's name, as ("angel of the Lord," or "angel of God" Zech. xii. 8). Other appellations are , or ("Sons of God," Gen. vi. 4; Job, i. 6 [R. V. v. 1]; Ps. xxix. 1 [R. V. margin]); and ("the Holy Ones" [perhaps equivalent to "fiery ones," "unapproachable"; see Holiness. K.], Ps. lxxxix. 6, 8 [R. V. 5, 7]).

Angels appear to man in the shape of human beings of extraordinary beauty, and are not at once recognized as angels (Gen. xviii. 2, xix. 5; Judges, vi. 17, xiii. 6; II Sam. xxix. 9); they fly through the air; they become invisible; sacrifices touched by them are consumed by fire; they disappear in sacrificial fire, like Elijah, who rode to heaven in a fiery chariot; and they appear in the flames of the thornbush (Gen. xvi. 13; Judges, vi. 21, 22; II Kings, ii. 11; Ex. iii. 2). They are pure and bright as heaven; consequently they are formed of fire and are encompassed by light (Job, xv. 15), as the Psalmist says (Ps. civ. 4, R. V.): "Who maketh winds his messengers; his ministers a flaming fire." Although they have intercourse with the daughters of men (Gen. vi.), and eat heavenly bread (Ps. lxxviii. 25), they are immaterial, not being subject to the limitations of time and space.

Angels are referred to in connection with their special missions; as, for instance, the "angel which hath redeemed," "an interpreter," "the angel that destroyed," "messenger of the covenant," "angel of his presence," and "a band of angels of evil" (Gen. xlviii. 16; Job, xxxiii. 23; II Sam. xxiv. 16; Mal. iii. 1; Isa. lxiii. 9; Ps. lxxviii. 49, R. V.). When, however, the heavenly host is regarded in its most comprehensive aspect, a distinction may be made between cherubim, seraphim, ḥayyot ("living creatures"), ofanim ("wheels"), and arelim (the meaning of which term is unknown). God is described as riding on the cherubim and as "the Lord of hosts, who dwelleth between the cherubim"; while the latter guard the way of the tree of life (I Sam. iv. 4, Ps. lxxx. 2, Gen. iii. 24). The seraphim are described by Isaiah (vi. 2) as having six wings; and Ezekiel describes the ḥayyot (Ezek. i. 5 et seq.) and ofanim as heavenly beings who carry God's throne.

For the full commentary see: Jewish Encyclopedia.com - Angeology

As for Seraphim this is what I found:

Class of heavenly beings, mentioned only once in the Old Testament, in a vision of the prophet Isaiah (vi. 2 et seq.). Isaiah saw several seraphim, their exact number not being given, standing before the throne of Yhwh. They were winged beings, each having six wings—two covering their faces, two covering their feet, and two for flying. The seraphim cry continually to each other, "Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory" (vi. 3). The "foundations of the thresholds" (R. V.) of the Temple were moved by the sound of their voices. One of the seraphim flew to Isaiah with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar, and with which he touched the lips of the prophet to purge him from sin. Isaiah gives no further description of the form and appearance of the seraphim; he apparently assumes that his readers are acquainted with them. Nevertheless, it may be concluded from the description that the seraphim were conceived as having human faces, human hands, and human voices. However, one should not too hastily conclude that the seraphim were winged human forms. At least this was not the original conception, although later Judaism pictured them so. The seraphim are frequently mentioned in the Book of Enoch (xx. 7, lxi. 10, lxxi. 7), where they are designated as δράκονες ("serpents"), and are always mentioned, in conjunction with the cherubim, as the heavenly creatures standing nearest to God. In Rev. iv. 6-8 four animals are pictured as standing near the throne of God; each has six wings, and, as in Isaiah, they sing the "Trisagion."

Meaning.

The passages cited furnish conclusive evidence against the idea, popular for a time, that the seraphim belong to the same category as angels. They have nothing whatever to do with the "messengers of God"; in the Jewish conception the two have always been distinguished. Dan. x. 13, the Book of Tobit, and other sources, afford information concerning a series of "chief" angels, but allusions to the seraphim are entirely lacking, and an etymological connection of the name "seraf" with the Arabic "sharif" (to be exalted or distinguished) is equally valueless.

On the other hand, there is a striking similarity between the seraphim and cherubim. Both are winged creatures, half human, half animal; both stand near the throne of God, and appear as its guardians; and, as has already been stated, they are always mentioned together in the Book of Enoch. This, however, by no means proves that the origin of the two was the same; it only shows that in later Jewish conception, as well as in the conception of the contemporaries of Isaiah, these two classes of heavenly beings were closely related.

Some authorities hold that the seraphim had their origin in the Egyptian "seref," a composite, winged creature, half lion and half eagle, which guarded graves, carried dead kings up to heaven, and transmittedprayers thither. The form and office of the seref, however, suggest rather the Jewish cherubim.

Babylonian Origin.

According to other investigators, the conception was of Babylonian origin. Friedrich Delitzsch and Hommel associate the seraphim with the Assyrian "sharrapu," a name which, in Canaan, designated the Babylonian fire-god Nergal. The seraphim, then, would be the flames in which this god manifested himself. An argument against this theory is that until now no one has been able to show that the word "seraph" was ever used as a name of a god. According to a third and more probable theory, the seraphim originally were serpents, as the name implies. Among many peoples of antiquity serpents played an important part in myth and folk-lore. For instance, there were Tiamat in the Babylonian legend of the Creation, and the Uræus serpent in Egypt. Consequently, since the Jews shared the superstitious ideas of surrounding nations in other respects, it should not be a matter of wonder if they adopted this notion as well. That the serpent filled a special rôle among them as a demoniacal being may be seen from the story of Adam's fall (Gen. iii.). In this connection the names "Dragon Spring" and "Serpent Pool" (places in the vicinity of Jerusalem) are worthy of being noted. A brazen serpent brings relief from the effects of the bite of the fiery serpents (Num. xxi. 9 et seq.) which Yhwh sent among his disobedient people in the wilderness. Isaiah (xiv. 29, xxx. 6) speaks of fiery, flying serpents and dragons; and a brazen serpent, Nehushtan, stood in the Temple at Jerusalem, and was an object of worship until the time of Hezekiah, who destroyed it as being idolatrous (II Kings xviii. 4 et seq.). The worship of Nehushtan was plainly a remnant of ancient superstition, and was reconciled with the worship of Yhwh by connecting Nehushtan with the scourge of snakes in the wilderness and the rescue from them (Num. xxi. 9 et seq.). Therefore the theory seems possible, even probable, that the seraphim have their counterpart in the flying serpents of Isaiah (comp. also II Esd. xv. 29). It is only natural that these winged guardians of Yhwh's throne were soon ranked as higher beings and invested with the human form or with some features of the human body; and it was because of the very fact that they were adopted into the Yhwh cult that they were, in process of time, ennobled and spiritualized.E. G. H. I.

Ok, I take back what I said, but you could have provided the link when I asked, you know.

The only item that I have doubts with is in relation to manna. In this the dictionary didn't help your interpretation at all.

Just so you know, that greek text is the word Drakon, where we get the word dragon. Sometime they are depiected with wings and legs, sometimes as just enormous serpents.

As far as the reference to the Egyptian Serref, in an egyptian hymn it is called a fiery serpent just like the serephim in Isaiah. You cannot tell from the tiny hieroglyphs if the creature is a reptilian , but this must be implied by the fiery serpent title in the Hymn. So here we have two seperate cultures each beieving this is a winged dragon, NOT an angel.

As for the Manna, sorry, I am quite amazed it wasn't there but you will find other references to manna being the food of the angels. The one account from psalms did mention the "bread from heaven". Whether an angle is fallen or not, the fact that they can impregnate women suggests they are flesh and blood, just as the eating of heavenly bread, which you will find, or I will look for another link.

So do they magically turn from flesh to spirit? You cn believe that, but I suspect the Biblical writers did not understand there were both angels, heavenly/good spirits which were once humans, and then the "dragons" that attended God, and destroyed the unrighteous.

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IamsSon

Just so you know, that greek text is the word Drakon, where we get the word dragon. Sometime they are depiected with wings and legs, sometimes as just enormous serpents.

As far as the reference to the Egyptian Serref, in an egyptian hymn it is called a fiery serpent just like the serephim in Isaiah. You cannot tell from the tiny hieroglyphs if the creature is a reptilian , but this must be implied by the fiery serpent title in the Hymn. So here we have two seperate cultures each beieving this is a winged dragon, NOT an angel.

As for the Manna, sorry, I am quite amazed it wasn't there but you will find other references to manna being the food of the angels. The one account from psalms did mention the "bread from heaven". Whether an angle is fallen or not, the fact that they can impregnate women suggests they are flesh and blood, just as the eating of heavenly bread, which you will find, or I will look for another link.

So do they magically turn from flesh to spirit? You cn believe that, but I suspect the Biblical writers did not understand there were both angels, heavenly/good spirits which were once humans, and then the "dragons" that attended God, and destroyed the unrighteous.

I still don't see where you get the certainty that angels are beings who were once human.

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Jor-el

I still don't see where you get the certainty that angels are beings who were once human.

He takes it from the expression "sons of God" which appears in the old testament in relation to the concept of angels.

Genesis 6:2

the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose.

Genesis 6:4

The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

Job 1:6

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 2:1

Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

Job 38:7

When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

I suppose from the context one can apply this interpretation to the idea that angels were are human beings with extraordinary powers, since only humans can mate with humans. This seems to allow them either to encarnate in flesh and blood and procreate or it means we are not seeing another interpretation that could also be applied. I initially resisted the idea that they are flesh and blood beings but in the end it doesn't really matter one way or the other.

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draconic chronicler

He takes it from the expression "sons of God" which appears in the old testament in relation to the concept of angels.

Genesis 6:2

the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose.

Genesis 6:4

The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

Job 1:6

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 2:1

Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

Job 38:7

When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

I suppose from the context one can apply this interpretation to the idea that angels were are human beings with extraordinary powers, since only humans can mate with humans. This seems to allow them either to encarnate in flesh and blood and procreate or it means we are not seeing another interpretation that could also be applied. I initially resisted the idea that they are flesh and blood beings but in the end it doesn't really matter one way or the other.

Yes, Jor-el, all of those scriptures and the fact that in the oldest Eden story, there were already humans around, but the Seraph-dragon specifically approached Adam to become immortal, but others warned him not to trust the dragon, so he didn't, and lost the chance to become immortal (an angel).

And you are right, it shouldn't really matter. But you would be surprised how many people hate the notion of the Seraphim being "dragons" despite the evidence. This is probably becasue Satan is identified as a dragon, and are oblivious to the fact this merely means he was just another Seraph.

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Jor-el

Yes, Jor-el, all of those scriptures and the fact that in the oldest Eden story, there were already humans around, but the Seraph-dragon specifically approached Adam to become immortal, but others warned him not to trust the dragon, so he didn't, and lost the chance to become immortal (an angel).

And you are right, it shouldn't really matter. But you would be surprised how many people hate the notion of the Seraphim being "dragons" despite the evidence. This is probably becasue Satan is identified as a dragon, and are oblivious to the fact this merely means he was just another Seraph.

Actually the degree of refusal would be minimal, since it is a well established fact that satan was an archangel who rebelled and was thrown out of heaven. The fact that he was thrown out of heaven doesn't stop him from still being an archangel. It also doesn't alter the fact that he was known as the angel of light also known as the morning star. When he appears to humans, he still uses the guise of the angel of light, a being of supreme beauty. Thus is why as a precaution one should always be wary of angels in general, both sides can "appear to be" from either side.

As for actually accepting the second part of your post, (the part about Adam) I'm sorry but that directly contradicts the bible, which you yourself use to give wheight to your statements. In this we must agree to disagree, also you have to consider that even though Judaism and Christianity stem from the same fount, the basic theology of each faith is very different. As such it is my belief that certain ideas that you may uphold stemming from judaic background will at times directly contrast with basic christian beliefs.

I may study other ancient manuscripts for insight into the culture and background of a given civilization, but only the bible holds the spiritual wheight to make decisions on theology.

Edited by Jor-el

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dmurdock36

The existence of dinosaurs in the earths history contradicts the events in the bible. In the Genisis stories God created earth with modern day animals.

I'm looking for the "oficial" christian explanation on this. I didn't post this in the Skeptic forum because I'm trying to start that debate...just an answer if there is one and if there is not maybe a debate between christians(or bible historians).

Well to answer your question in genesis god never said he created modern animals he just referred to animals in general no distinction is made as to what these animals where. It doesnt say anywhere that he didnt create dinosaurs.

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Jor-el

Well to answer your question in genesis god never said he created modern animals he just referred to animals in general no distinction is made as to what these animals where. It doesnt say anywhere that he didnt create dinosaurs.

No one is saying otherwise. God didn't mention dinosaurs in genesis but their fossils exist. The question is how do modern believers face this question and how do they correlate scientific information with the bible.

Depending on who you speak to, there are at least a dozen explanations that come to mind, however one needs to look at all the information available and not ignore some parts in detriment to others. Since all theorie are just that, "theories", it is necessary to present one that will satisfy christians and science as well. Oh by the way read the previous posts as well so the same arguments don't get repeated "ad infinitum".

Edited by Jor-el

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draconic chronicler

No one is saying otherwise. God didn't mention dinosaurs in genesis but their fossils exist. The question is how do modern believers face this question and how do they correlate scientific information with the bible.

Depending on who you speak to, there are at least a dozen explanations that come to mind, however one needs to look at all the information available and not ignore some parts in detriment to others. Since all theorie are just that, "theories", it is necessary to present one that will satisfy christians and science as well. Oh by the way read the previous posts as well so the same arguments don't get repeated "ad infinitum".

The "great monsters" in Genesis, created before man are referred to as Tannyn in Hebrew. This word is translated to dragons in some verses, since they are not always referred to as sea creatures. Obviously the bible won't say the English word dinosaur, as it was invented until the 1840's I believe.

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