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Dave67

The Black Dahlia mystery

178 posts in this topic

I strongly disagree. Those lacerations to the mouth don't appear to me to have been performed with any surgical precision whatsoever... nor performed with a medical instrument designed for surgery/incisions!

The investigators and the ME, not sure they used that term then, were quoted saying the bisection looked like someone had skill. In an earlier post I said it could come from other sources other than medicine, such as mortician, hunter or butcher...someone who knew anatomy or how to cut up an animal. I am just relying on what I have read people observed. I am not sure about the smile being surgical or not. It does look like butchery but maybe that was the intent. I think it is reasonable to think the person had medical training, but not determinate. You would have to believe this person took his time torturing and then draining the blood down some drain I suppose. He or she must have had a private area to commit this crime. I guess it could have been done in a bathtub. They described the bisection as clean and cut between vertabrae in the spine. Only the intestines were bisected in the gut. No hacking thru the organs one might expect from an inexperienced person. I will look later for some of these observations when I get a chance.

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If BD was posed, what direction was she in. Was the head North? Arm pointing East? Place her on a compass rose and see if it makes a statement.

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Posted (edited)

The lacerations across her face and mouth exhibit no sign of surgical skill. The dissection of her body does.

She was dumped as she was for a reason. I've said before, the killer/s could have disposed of her body without anyone knowing but chose to leave her displayed as she was.

She was gone for about a week before her body was found. That amount of time, plus the dumping of her body, leads me to believe she knew her killer/s. She left the Biltmore presumably to meet someone. No way of knowing whether that someone was her killer/s but I believe it's a reasonable supposition. If you read back into the Dahlia threads on this board, Jon Von Erich posted some invaluable info about where her BD's shoes etc were found.

Edited by Antilles

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Posted (edited)

The lacerations across her face and mouth exhibit no sign of surgical skill. The dissection of her body does.

She was dumped as she was for a reason. I've said before, the killer/s could have disposed of her body without anyone knowing but chose to leave her displayed as she was.

She was gone for about a week before her body was found. That amount of time, plus the dumping of her body, leads me to believe she knew her killer/s. She left the Biltmore presumably to meet someone. No way of knowing whether that someone was her killer/s but I believe it's a reasonable supposition. If you read back into the Dahlia threads on this board, Jon Von Erich posted some invaluable info about where her BD's shoes etc were found.

It sounds we agree the dumpsite location meant something to the killer. I did go back and read JVE posts and more. The place where the shoes and such were found could be close to where it happened. If the killer held her captive, tortured her, then dumped her, perhaps he got back and cleaned up, discarding the shoes in a nearby dumpster. Some posts call into question whether Short even owned the purse and shoes that were eventually located in the dump. If it was her shoes and purse, and the police definitely know where they were discarded, I would like to know if any of the suspects lived within walking distance.

Edited by mbrn30000

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Posted (edited)

The lacerations across her face and mouth exhibit no sign of surgical skill. The dissection of her body does.

I just can't imagine what's impressive about the dissection.

She was dumped as she was for a reason. I've said before, the killer/s could have disposed of her body without anyone knowing but chose to leave her displayed as she was.

Well, of course, she was dumped for a reason, Antilles. The question is why there and the answer could be any number of things, including that it could have been near where the perp himself lived!

She was gone for about a week before her body was found. That amount of time, plus the dumping of her body, leads me to believe she knew her killer/s.

It indicates to me that she was held alive for a certain amount of time.

.

She left the Biltmore presumably to meet someone.

I thought the info from the man who'd given her a ride was that she was meeting her sister there. If that's what he told police, I believe him and I think it indicates that Short actually had no plans whatsoever.

Edited by regi

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The place where the shoes and such were found could be close to where it happened. If the killer held her captive, tortured her, then dumped her, perhaps he got back and cleaned up, discarding the shoes in a nearby dumpster. Some posts call into question whether Short even owned the purse and shoes that were eventually located in the dump. If it was her shoes and purse, and the police definitely know where they were discarded, I would like to know if any of the suspects lived within walking distance.

I recall that a purse believed to belong to Short was found but I don't recall the address. :blush:

I do recall that it was a rather significant time later and so- if they were indeed Short's belongings- then considering where they were found, it looks to me like they probably weren't ditched until some later time, a time closer to when they were found.

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I recall that a purse believed to belong to Short was found but I don't recall the address. :blush:

I do recall that it was a rather significant time later and so- if they were indeed Short's belongings- then considering where they were found, it looks to me like they probably weren't ditched until some later time, a time closer to when they were found.

From a post on page 3 of this thread by Jonathan Von Erich

"You are talking about the shoes and handbag ? They were found by the proprietor of a café at 1136 South Crenshaw, just 20 blocks north of 39th and Norton. They were in an incinerator behind the café. Shortly after, a "rubbish" truck removed the shoes and bag along with the trash. After a search of the city dump they were recovered, and Red Manley identified the shoes and handbag as being Beth's. Manley also noted that traces of Beth's distinctive perfume were still discernable inside the bag. However there's some controversy about Manley's statement. Some people believe he wasn't so sure that the items were Beth's, and some claims the authorities had put a lot of pressure on him to say that the items belonged to the Dahlia."

Not sure of his source....

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From a post on page 3 of this thread by Jonathan Von Erich

"You are talking about the shoes and handbag ? They were found by the proprietor of a café at 1136 South Crenshaw, just 20 blocks north of 39th and Norton. They were in an incinerator behind the café. Shortly after, a "rubbish" truck removed the shoes and bag along with the trash. After a search of the city dump they were recovered, and Red Manley identified the shoes and handbag as being Beth's. Manley also noted that traces of Beth's distinctive perfume were still discernable inside the bag. However there's some controversy about Manley's statement. Some people believe he wasn't so sure that the items were Beth's, and some claims the authorities had put a lot of pressure on him to say that the items belonged to the Dahlia."

Not sure of his source....

Yeah, I'm not sure about some of that info. I mean, those items were actually found twice? Right off the bat, that strikes me as a bit odd.

Anyway, that street name/add. doesn't ring a bell. It's definitely not what I've read elsewhere.

I'll go back and see if I can find it and I'll note the source.

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Posted (edited)

Yeah, I'm not sure about some of that info. I mean, those items were actually found twice? Right off the bat, that strikes me as a bit odd.

Anyway, that street name/add. doesn't ring a bell. It's definitely not what I've read elsewhere.

I'll go back and see if I can find it and I'll note the source.

I looked at the map. I could not find South Crenshaw. It appears, at least today, Crenshaw blvd is just Crenshaw Blvd..no north and south. But Crenshaw is near the dump site on Norman. If you were to return north towards hollywood, you would go from Norman to Crenshaw and take it all the way back to the vicinty of the Biltmore and Dr. Bayley's office btw. Douglas mentions the purse was found at a dump on E 25th...I think that must be where the waste hauler dropped the garbage from the restaurant. Its not really near the other locations. Douglas says that address shows the murderer could have been traveling north, but his address shows the murderer would be heading east. I think Douglas confused the E 25th dump with the Crenshaw address. I guess the owner of the restaurant saw the items but thought nothing of it, other than he either put them in his trash or the murderer did. The garbage truck took it away and I guess he reported it later. I think the murder could have occurred North of the dumpsite and the murderer was returning after he dumped the body. I looked at the cause of Dr. Bayley's death. He died of pneumonia and apparently had heart attacks. His death cert also listed Encephalomalacia, softening of the brain, as a secondary factor. Don't expect me to explain that... :no: It can occur as a result of stroke or injury among other factors. What if there were two people? One more disorganized who did the torture and one more organized who cleaned up and bisected the body? Just a thought. I am not sure what to make of the letter with the cut out letters returning Shorts things. Antilles I believed pointed out the use of the long word Belongings instead of just saying things....he suggested it could indicate a person whose second language was english. remember Dr. Bayleys female partner, mistress was from Austria. I am theorizing the two doctors, with bayley being the one with the rage, the one that carved the body up, perhaps killed her...and the Austrian doctor methodically cleaning up the body, cutting it in two but given the staging and disrespectful posing, I would have to think Dr, Bayley would be the one who actually dumped the body. He may have forgotten to leave the shoes and purse and stopped along the way to dump them...ok I will admit....I am way out on a limb. I will not defend this theory to the death...but maybe its not these two but two others....or maybe there was one and the torture and disfigurement was during a rage and the more methodical bisection and cleaning was after that person settled down.

Edited by mbrn30000

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I just can't imagine what's impressive about the dissection

Apparently the police thought it was done by somebody skilled

Fact: Her bisection was a clean, professional job, according to one investigator who was at the crime scene. In sworn testimony before the Los Angeles County Grand Jury, Detective Harry Hansen said he believed the bisection was done by "a very fine surgeon."

from the FAQs

http://lmharnisch.com/home.html

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Posted (edited)

Apparently the police thought it was done by somebody skilled

Fact: Her bisection was a clean, professional job, according to one investigator who was at the crime scene. In sworn testimony before the Los Angeles County Grand Jury, Detective Harry Hansen said he believed the bisection was done by "a very fine surgeon."

from the FAQs

http://lmharnisch.com/home.html

I found another reference for the medical training theory from an FBI memo... https://www.awesomes.../bf7b1c8fa3.pdf

From this website.. https://www.awesomes...ew/Black-Dahlia

This website has a few pages from grand jury testimony. Might answer some of our questions. Have not read it all.

Here's creepy thought. Never heard of this. Just ran across it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasgow_smile

Edited by mbrn30000
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Apparently the police thought it was done by somebody skilled

Fact: Her bisection was a clean, professional job, according to one investigator who was at the crime scene. In sworn testimony before the Los Angeles County Grand Jury, Detective Harry Hansen said he believed the bisection was done by "a very fine surgeon."

from the FAQs

I don't agree that's a fact. It doesn't matter to me what those investigators thought and/or swore to re: such an issue and it's beyond me why anyone would take their opinions on such as fact. They're investigators!

I found another reference for the medical training theory from an FBI memo... https://www.awesomes.../bf7b1c8fa3.pdf

I still don't know what observances at autopsy could have suggested such speculation.

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I looked at the map. I could not find South Crenshaw. It appears, at least today, Crenshaw blvd is just Crenshaw Blvd..no north and south. But Crenshaw is near the dump site on Norman. If you were to return north towards hollywood, you would go from Norman to Crenshaw and take it all the way back to the vicinty of the Biltmore and Dr. Bayley's office btw. Douglas mentions the purse was found at a dump on E 25th...I think that must be where the waste hauler dropped the garbage from the restaurant. Its not really near the other locations. Douglas says that address shows the murderer could have been traveling north, but his address shows the murderer would be heading east. I think Douglas confused the E 25th dump with the Crenshaw address. I guess the owner of the restaurant saw the items but thought nothing of it, other than he either put them in his trash or the murderer did. The garbage truck took it away and I guess he reported it later.

It would be helpful to know when those items were first observed at the restaurant because now I'm questioning whether they actually belonged to Short. Or...maybe they did, but since they were recovered from the dump where there were other similar items, then they might could have come from some other location... unless they were identified by the restaurant feller as the ones he'd seen.

Yeah, it seems Douglas would have been referring to the restaurant when he surmised that the perp was "returning", but for that to be accurate, 1136 Crenshaw would indicate south, not north. :hmm:

Also, he didn't mention anything about a restaurant as the initial location. :unsure2:

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Posted (edited)

I don't agree that's a fact. It doesn't matter to me what those investigators thought and/or swore to re: such an issue and it's beyond me why anyone would take their opinions on such as fact. They're investigators!

I still don't know what observances at autopsy could have suggested such speculation.

Just spitballing here, but have you ever watched someone skilled at carving a turkey work vs. an inexperienced first-time turkey hacker, the first producing nice, even slices of meat while the second serving up ragged chunks of bird? How about a skilled butcher behind a meat counter with the proper tools vs. an inexperienced cook with a dull knife, each trying to cut 1X1 squares of stew beef?

I don't want to dehumanize Beth Short by that comparison, but the human cadaver poses similar challenges in dissection--fat, sinew, tendons, bone, etc. Someone familiar with anatomy and practiced in cutting it will make different looking cuts than someone unfamiliar with the anatomy and unpracticed in cutting. I think that is likely all they are saying.

Edited by 2-B
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I don't agree that's a fact. It doesn't matter to me what those investigators thought and/or swore to re: such an issue and it's beyond me why anyone would take their opinions on such as fact. They're investigators!

I still don't know what observances at autopsy could have suggested such speculation.

It seems to me a doctor doing an autopsy would know if somebody had anatomical knowledge by the cut they made.To avoid hacking through internal organs I would expect takes a degree of skill.Would they really ask for a list of medical students from the University of Southern California on a whim?

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I don't agree that's a fact. It doesn't matter to me what those investigators thought and/or swore to re: such an issue and it's beyond me why anyone would take their opinions on such as fact. They're investigators!

I still don't know what observances at autopsy could have suggested such speculation.

I think it was the straight clean cut around the abdomen, and the way the intestines were cut cleanly. I guess a non medical professional could have achieved this, but as in most things in life humans rarely get things right the first time. I would have expected many starts and stops as he tried to find the best way to cut her in half if it were his first experience. There was a discussion i saw once about restaurant owners, not sure if they are the same people who found the purse and shoes in the trash or others. Restaurant owners would certainly have an icebox and knive skills. They thought she was iced down for a time. I don't know about the restaurant owners that people mentioned on blogs. I don't know who they are. Also that letter about the belongings....the outside if I found the right one, sounds more like a helpful letter than a taunt. Wonder if the sender was not the killer but someone who found the items and wanted the police to have them without getting involved directly.

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Posted (edited)

It would be helpful to know when those items were first observed at the restaurant because now I'm questioning whether they actually belonged to Short. Or...maybe they did, but since they were recovered from the dump where there were other similar items, then they might could have come from some other location... unless they were identified by the restaurant feller as the ones he'd seen.

Yeah, it seems Douglas would have been referring to the restaurant when he surmised that the perp was "returning", but for that to be accurate, 1136 Crenshaw would indicate south, not north. :hmm:

Also, he didn't mention anything about a restaurant as the initial location. :unsure2:

The post on this thread page 3 said 1136 crenshaw was a restaurant. Not sure what the original source was. I show 1136 crenshaw blvd is north of the body dumpsite and about is heading north toward the biltmore area.

Edited by mbrn30000

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Unless any of you people have actually read the damned autopsy report, then kindly back off.

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Unless any of you people have actually read the damned autopsy report, then kindly back off.

I cannot find it. But i found links to testimony before the grand jury and the photos of the body. It looks like a pretty clean cut to me. The quotes from the autopsy i have found, just describe it without comment about skill of the killer.

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Unless any of you people have actually read the damned autopsy report, then kindly back off.

We have provided evidence that law enforcement believed it was a skilled cut.You have provided your opinion which is fair enough but don't get an attitude just because we don't agree with you.

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We have provided evidence that law enforcement believed it was a skilled cut.

Yes, and I replied that I don't give a flying flip about what LE believed!

You have provided your opinion which is fair enough but don't get an attitude just because we don't agree with you.

I don't care if you or anyone else agrees with me. I meant what I said and I expressed why I said it. Re: that issue, it's end of story.

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Posted (edited)

well if its alright, others may continue to discuss the medical experience theory. I think just by looking at the clean cut around the center of the body, it shows some level of knowledge. As I said earlier, it could come from other ways other than from being a doctor. Given in 1947 the killer could not google how to do it. I have seen cases where other bodies were cut up, but most of those involve cutting the body into pieces, basically hacking away. Kind of like the scene from Fargo and the wood chipper. This perp did carve around on the body, but that was purely for his enjoyment. When he decided to move the body, he just thought cutting it in half was good enough.

Edited by mbrn30000
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well if its alright, others may continue to discuss the medical experience theory. I think just by looking at the clean cut around the center of the body, it shows some level of knowledge. As I said earlier, it could come from other ways other than from being a doctor. Given in 1947 the killer could not google how to do it. I have seen cases where other bodies were cut up, but most of those involve cutting the body into pieces, basically hacking away. Kind of like the scene from Fargo and the wood chipper. This perp did carve around on the body, but that was purely for his enjoyment. When he decided to move the body, he just thought cutting it in half was good enough.

I agree,even if it wasn't a medically trained person I believe it was somebody skilled in at least butchery.It doesn't seem to me she was crudely hacked in two,she was bisected in the manner of somebody with familiarity with anatomy,there must have been a reason for the police to suspect this and to seek leads amongst medical students

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Last night I was reading a bit of Corroborating Evidence by William T Rasmussen

In the section on the Black Dahlia he says that.Harry Hansen was one of the only two people allowed to view at the autopsy,Dr Newbarr told Hansen that" the surgery was meticulous" and "couldn't have been done in fifteen minutes,half hour or even an hour"

The killer had hit the exact spot between the second and third lumbar vertebrae which is the easiest point in the spinal column to sever.

Another point on this,the author Mary Pacios, who wrote Childhood Shadows about the Black Dahlia asked, Det St. John who worked on the case whether the killer had any medical training or used medical equipment?

"I can't go into that" he laughed and then said "Our job is to get information not give it......the perpetrator may have had some knowledge of anatomy,but he wasn't necessarily in the medical profession"

I think this kinda confirms what me and mbrn30000 were thinking

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