The Black Dahlia mystery

[EmmasMommy]

Thanks for the link dr no. I'll check it out for sure.

[2-B]

I haven't read through this whole thread, so my apologies in advance if this has been discussed. But talk of Cameron's book on Edward Wayne Edwards on another thread here (retired detective Cameron believes serial killer Edwards is responsible for major crimes over a 66-year period, including Elizabeth Short) led me to blackdahliasolution.org, a site Cameron believes was written by Edwards.

I have no idea re the accuracy or truth in any of that, but this has got to be one of the **creepiest** websites I've ever looked at. Starts out rather normal, then descends into some weird kind of madness. Thought I'd throw it out for anyone interested.

Don't say I didn't warn you! :-(

[dr no]

I haven't read through this whole thread, so my apologies in advance if this has been discussed. But talk of Cameron's book on Edward Wayne Edwards on another thread here (retired detective Cameron believes serial killer Edwards is responsible for major crimes over a 66-year period, including Elizabeth Short) led me to blackdahliasolution.org, a site Cameron believes was written by Edwards.

I have no idea re the accuracy or truth in any of that, but this has got to be one of the **creepiest** websites I've ever looked at. Starts out rather normal, then descends into some weird kind of madness. Thought I'd throw it out for anyone interested.

Don't say I didn't warn you! :-(

You're right I've looked at that website before,I got totally lost in what the author was going on about with all the cryptograms and letters carved in Elizabeth Shorts head,most bizarre but he seems convinced

[mbrn30000]

I haven't read through this whole thread, so my apologies in advance if this has been discussed. But talk of Cameron's book on Edward Wayne Edwards on another thread here (retired detective Cameron believes serial killer Edwards is responsible for major crimes over a 66-year period, including Elizabeth Short) led me to blackdahliasolution.org, a site Cameron believes was written by Edwards.

I have no idea re the accuracy or truth in any of that, but this has got to be one of the **creepiest** websites I've ever looked at. Starts out rather normal, then descends into some weird kind of madness. Thought I'd throw it out for anyone interested.

Don't say I didn't warn you! :-(

Cameron claims edwards was out killing women at age 12, traveling around the country. he would have been 13 at the time of the black dahlia murder. Plus who ever killed the black dahlia had to have a car to dump her in an empty lot. Oh I guess he could have had a little red wagon rolling all over LA with a dead body cut in half. I am sure nobody would notice. Cameron is playing a sick joke on a lot of simple minds to sell a worthless book. He made a list of the most publicized murders in the last 70 years and pretends this serial murderer did them all, and unfortunately some people are falling for it. Edwards did not write that page.

http://ladailymirror...sion-in-lunacy/

If you got camerons page and scroll down he has a picture he claims is of edwards with Short taken in a arcade photo booth. Another website identified that as an ed burns a boyfriend, and hodel says its not burns but another man he has spoken to but did not want his named revealed. according to hodel..http://www.defrostin...hodels-answers/

"No, “Ed Burns” had nothing to do with the Black Dahlia murder. The photo is addressed in my updated chapter. I identified and spoke with the person in the photograph who for his privacy sake, I call, “Gerald Moss.” He was with Elizabeth for a few hours and they took that picture in a dime machine. LAPD knows his real name and eliminated him in ’47. The DA Files also know his true name a reference him in their files. The man was never in Los Angeles and met Elizabeth on her travels through Indianapolis after the war."

Here is a link to the pictures of the real edward edwards... http://murderpedia.o...ward-photos.htm

he looks nothing like this man. Remember the man with short if it were edwards would need to be 13 years old if taken in 1947. A earlier picture on camerons scroll of edwards life pretends to be a picture of edwards in OH a little earlier in edwards life and you can easily see he took the same dime store picture with the so called unknown boy and cropped it to pretend it was edwards earlier. How dishonest. Compare the 1955 photo on the above link. On that edwards page it tells edwards joined the marines for a short stint, and drifted in his 20's...but nothing about him wandering the country as a 12-14 year old.

here is another hodel link with more details about that photograph. http://www.blackdahl...m/faq/FAQ23.pdf

Edited June 14, 2014 by mbrn30000

[2-B]

Mbrn and Dr. No--

Thanks for the responses. As I explained, I was throwing the URL out for anyone interested in reading it, not because I endorsed its accuracy. (I had in fact previously read Hodel's take on the ID of Burns/Barnes, though Hodel of course has his own slant/agenda to consider....). I mostly just found it interesting in a very creepy way: someone had a mind demented enough to chastise Short for obsessing over Suzanne Degnan's murder while him/herself obsessing over the photo of Short and the horse via a vis the damage done to Short when she was tortured and killed.

In short (pun intended), if not the killer of the Black Dahlia, this to me is still interesting abnormal psychology, one of the things that draws me to true crime cases. I assume others may also be interested in that aspect.....

Edited June 14, 2014 by 2-B

[Regi]

Cameron claims edwards was out killing women at age 12, traveling around the country. he would have been 13 at the time of the black dahlia murder. Plus who ever killed the black dahlia had to have a car to dump her in an empty lot. Oh I guess he could have had a little red wagon rolling all over LA with a dead body cut in half. I am sure nobody would notice. Cameron is playing a sick joke on a lot of simple minds to sell a worthless book. He made a list of the most publicized murders in the last 70 years and pretends this serial murderer did them all, and unfortunately some people are falling for it. Edwards did not write that page.

http://ladailymirror...sion-in-lunacy/

First, that article is too funny! They'll let "the Zodiac folks dispense and the JonBenet people deal..."...crackpot stuff..."

I appreciate your time and effort to point out the absurdities re: any link between the Zodiac case and Edwards. (Of course, it's a preposterous notion!)

Re: that photo, that's along the same line of crap Cameron presents to link Edwards to the West Memphis, Ak. case.

Among a few other bogus pieces of 'evidence', he claims that Edwards deliberately placed himself in the footage of the first documentary on the case, Paradise Lost. It's a scene where Christopher Byer's parents were at Chris' grave and there's an older man with a cane hanging over his arm and Cameron claims that's Edwards. He claims the cane is the murder weapon and that the man is displaying it as such.

The scene starts @ 38:01.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NNdCP9z2cM[/media]

Edited June 15, 2014 by regi

[EmmasMommy]

Question:

Does anyone know if ES herself was infatuated/obsessed with the Susan Deegan murder a year prior to her own?

[No Censorship]

I haven't read through this whole thread, so my apologies in advance if this has been discussed. But talk of Cameron's book on Edward Wayne Edwards on another thread here (retired detective Cameron believes serial killer Edwards is responsible for major crimes over a 66-year period, including Elizabeth Short) led me to blackdahliasolution.org, a site Cameron believes was written by Edwards.

I have no idea re the accuracy or truth in any of that, but this has got to be one of the **creepiest** websites I've ever looked at. Starts out rather normal, then descends into some weird kind of madness. Thought I'd throw it out for anyone interested.

Don't say I didn't warn you! :-(

I heard two interviews with Cameron. He sounded honest and sincere, but I never believed his theory. Evidently, his fellow police didn't, either. He seemed confused by the fact that they weren't enthused to pursue his theory. Why would law enforcement not be enthusiastic? I think that question answers itself. Maybe they just don't want to waste time and money on linking the Zelig of murders to their jurisdictions' cold cases. Maury Terry made a better case in his connect-the-dots book linking Son of Sam to Charles Manson via a homicidal cult.

[No Censorship]

Among a few other bogus pieces of 'evidence', he claims that Edwards deliberately placed himself in the footage of the first documentary on the case, Paradise Lost. It's a scene where Christopher Byer's parents were at Chris' grave and there's an older man with a cane hanging over his arm and Cameron claims that's Edwards. He claims the cane is the murder weapon and that the man is displaying it as such.

Did Cameron link him him to the JFK assassination too? Was Edwards one of the three mysterious hoboes?

[EmmasMommy]

I haven't read through this whole thread, so my apologies in advance if this has been discussed. But talk of Cameron's book on Edward Wayne Edwards on another thread here (retired detective Cameron believes serial killer Edwards is responsible for major crimes over a 66-year period, including Elizabeth Short) led me to blackdahliasolution.org, a site Cameron believes was written by Edwards.

I have no idea re the accuracy or truth in any of that, but this has got to be one of the **creepiest** websites I've ever looked at. Starts out rather normal, then descends into some weird kind of madness. Thought I'd throw it out for anyone interested.

Don't say I didn't warn you! :-(

OH MY GAWD!! What the he** did I just read?

I was pretty bored so I decided to give this site a look. I read the ENTIRE thing, I couldn't stop and now my brain hurts.

Who ever wrote this had to be on some serious drugs and expects you (the reader) to be on the same. I mean come on! At one point they go as far to say (with pictures, no less) that there are hidden words and symbols CARVER into BD's pubic region UNDER HER PUBIC HAIR!

The Pubic-Area "Suzanne" Data: Definitive Degnan

With the help of carefully exposed, 2:1 magnified Xerox'ing, the morgue photo

of concern shows that the Black Dahlia's pubic region abounded in concealment

cryptography.

To set the symbolic theme, a large "Suzanne" is clearly written and cleverly

hidden in the upper portion of the region.

A "D" and an "N" clearly label two correctly oriented lines/streets as "Degnan"

and "Norton," respectively.

Three readily recognizable symbol-pairs are clearly drawn and utilized in the

encryption: a spike and a star; a diamond and a heart; a hex nut and a clothes-

pressing iron. The spike/star is to the left of the diamond/heart. And the diamond

touches the heart, the heart touches the iron, the hex nut is on the iron. The iron

has a "+" on it.

WOW...I just can't...what is wrong with some people?!

It does make for an interesting read, but WOW.

Edited June 15, 2014 by EmmasMommy

[Regi]

Did Cameron link him him to the JFK assassination too? Was Edwards one of the three mysterious hoboes?

Actually, I find it surprising Cameron didn't pin a few more murders on Edwards. I mean, with his approach, it couldn't be easier to do and so there's really no reason why he couldn't squeeze in a few more murders.

There are the Texarkana 'Moonlight Murders' in the spring of 1946. Of course, Edwards would still be available for the Degnan murder prior (1-46) and the Short murder after (1-47).

There's also the 'Girl Scout' murders in Oklahoma which occurred two months before the first murders Edwards confessed to. (Ohio, 8-77).

Now that I think about it, I'm rather disappointed with Cameron because he could have had an even longer list.

[dr no]

OH MY GAWD!! What the he** did I just read?

I was pretty bored so I decided to give this site a look. I read the ENTIRE thing, I couldn't stop and now my brain hurts.

Who ever wrote this had to be on some serious drugs and expects you (the reader) to be on the same. I mean come on! At one point they go as far to say (with pictures, no less) that there are hidden words and symbols CARVER into BD's pubic region UNDER HER PUBIC HAIR!

WOW...I just can't...what is wrong with some people?!

It does make for an interesting read, but WOW.

The frightening thing is the guy is an ex police detective,does that mean at some point in his career he suspected other people rather than Edwards of committing a crime?

[2-B]

The frightening thing is the guy is an ex police detective,does that mean at some point in his career he suspected other people rather than Edwards of committing a crime?

Mmmm.....the ex-police detective didn't create the blackdahliasolution.org site; he just cites it as allegedly belonging to a certain serial killer (but hasn't demonstrated the ownership, at least in his radio interviews).

[2-B]

Question:

Does anyone know if ES herself was infatuated/obsessed with the Susan Deegan murder a year prior to her own?

I think this is an intriguing question. It's one I also had a few days ago, so I Googled "Elizabeth Short Suzanne Degnan," and at least on a cursory look got only the link at blackdahliasolution.org with a connection between the two.

[Regi]

EmmasMommy, I didn't stay long on that site because I couldn't make heads or tails of the first page ( right?!), so I went directly to the radio interview where he spoke of a case I know very well (WM3) and it was right there where it was clearly evident to me that the man must be delusional!

Anyway, what you've pointed out with the Short case is another way he links the WM case, but what he's doing is using as evidence what has been shown to be the biggest, most detrimental misinterpretations made in that case; 1) that the crime was satanic in nature (police developed a theory of the crime and so their investigation was doomed from there), and 2) that a knife was used in the crime.

The facts are, other than skull fractures, abrasions and bruises, injuries to the bodies of two of the victims were attributed to post mortem animal predation, most likely alligator snapper.

Of course, in the Short case, the mutilation(s) to the body could indicate a lot of different things.

I know that one profiler (John Douglas) speculates that the bi-section was to transport and I agree that that could have been the sole purpose. I'm not sure what difference it really makes though; I mean, there was mutilation (to the mouth) for no practical reason and no matter the reason for the bi-section, the perp evidently had a certain amount of time and privacy with Short/Short's body.

[mbrn30000]

Of course, in the Short case, the mutilation(s) to the body could indicate a lot of different things.

I know that one profiler (John Douglas) speculates that the bi-section was to transport and I agree that that could have been the sole purpose. I'm not sure what difference it really makes though; I mean, there was mutilation (to the mouth) for no practical reason and no matter the reason for the bi-section, the perp evidently had a certain amount of time and privacy with Short/Short's body.

I read John Douglas's book, The Cases That Still Haunt Us, and just dug it out and re-read the Dahlia section. Thanks for reminding me. I had forgotten he actually named a good suspect, Jack Anderson Wilson aka Arnold Smith. Apparently he knew facts about both the Dahlia murder and another murder that could be related but he attributed his knowledge to someone he said was the real killer. Wilson died in a fire before detectives on the case could interview him. He had made a statement regarding the person he alledged was the real killer to Sheriff investigators. THose investigators had set up a meeting with detectives, but because he died it never happened.

I did look into the murder in Chicago, Susan Degnan and it was an interesting case. Apparently the murderer being the lipstick murderer was convicted but later recanted his confessions. I could see if this person was actually innocent, the real lipstick murderer would continue to kill. Not sure how to link that to LA, but it could happen I guess. Problem is i cannot accept a 12-13 year old did these things.

I don't see any real evidence, nor have I ever heard any that elizabeth short knew about or was obsessed about those murders in Chicago more than anyone else alive at that time.

Edited June 15, 2014 by mbrn30000

[EmmasMommy]

I think this is an intriguing question. It's one I also had a few days ago, so I Googled "Elizabeth Short Suzanne Degnan," and at least on a cursory look got only the link at blackdahliasolution.org with a connection between the two.

This is the same conclusion I came to after looking more into it. As far as I can tell that is the ONLY place that makes that allegation. I was just making sure I didn't miss something.

EmmasMommy, I didn't stay long on that site because I couldn't make heads or tails of the first page ( right?!), so I went directly to the radio interview where he spoke of a case I know very well (WM3) and it was right there where it was clearly evident to me that the man must be delusional!

Anyway, what you've pointed out with the Short case is another way he links the WM case, but what he's doing is using as evidence what has been shown to be the biggest, most detrimental misinterpretations made in that case; 1) that the crime was satanic in nature (police developed a theory of the crime and so their investigation was doomed from there), and 2) that a knife was used in the crime.

The facts are, other than skull fractures, abrasions and bruises, injuries to the bodies of two of the victims were attributed to post mortem animal predation, most likely alligator snapper.

Of course, in the Short case, the mutilation(s) to the body could indicate a lot of different things.

I know that one profiler (John Douglas) speculates that the bi-section was to transport and I agree that that could have been the sole purpose. I'm not sure what difference it really makes though; I mean, there was mutilation (to the mouth) for no practical reason and no matter the reason for the bi-section, the perp evidently had a certain amount of time and privacy with Short/Short's body.

I've thought the same thing about the bi-section before. But I'm really not sure. That's one thing that has always bothered me about this case. (Other than the hole savage murder, mutilation, staging for no apparent reason things, of course) I've always felt that the reason for the bi-section is the key to the who,what, when, were, why, and how aspect of the whole case.

When first considering that it could of been done for the transportation, I kept having this nagging feeling that a woman may have been involved. All of the male suspects that I've heard of and/or considered, with the exception of Dr Bayley, would have been more than capable of moving her body in one piece. Where as a female may have had some trouble. I've seen a few other places that suggest a woman, but they all seem to brush them off rather quickly. If the unsub was a woman then that could explain the manner and location on the body of the mutilations.

But that's just another suggestion to throw onto the pile. There are so many possibilities. Its mind blowing.

Edited June 15, 2014 by EmmasMommy

[mbrn30000]

This is the same conclusion I came to after looking more into it. As far as I can tell that is the ONLY place that makes that allegation. I was just making sure I didn't miss something.

I've thought the same thing about the bi-section before. But I'm really not sure. That's one thing that has always bothered me about this case. (Other than the hole savage murder, mutilation, staging for no apparent reason things, of course) I've always felt that the reason for the bi-section is the key to the who,what, when, were, why, and how aspect of the whole case.

When first considering that it could of been done for the transportation, I kept having this nagging feeling that a woman may have been involved. All of the male suspects that I've heard of and/or considered, with the exception of Dr Bayley, would have been more than capable of moving her body in one piece. Where as a female may have had some trouble. I've seen a few other places that suggest a woman, but they all seem to brush them off rather quickly. If the unsub was a woman then that could explain the manner and location on the body of the mutilation.

But that's just another suggestion to throw onto the pile. There are so many possibilities. Its mind blowing.

There are some investigators at the time who thought it might have been a woman. I think bi-secting her would not only make it easier to move, but also easier to conceal. A man might cut her in half if he had to load her into a car or out of one and wanted to conceal the parts inside a box or bag. So weight and bulk would not necessarily be the only reason to bi-sect the body. But given there was not evidence of semen it very well could have been a woman who kidnapped her and tortured her to death.

[dr no]

Mmmm.....the ex-police detective didn't create the blackdahliasolution.org site; he just cites it as allegedly belonging to a certain serial killer (but hasn't demonstrated the ownership, at least in his radio interviews).

Sorry I was getting confused with the Cameron site on Edwards as the topics have overlapped in 2 threads I was thinking Emmasmommy was referring to that.My bad!!

[Regi]

I read John Douglas's book, The Cases That Still Haunt Us, and just dug it out and re-read the Dahlia section. Thanks for reminding me. I had forgotten he actually named a good suspect, Jack Anderson Wilson aka Arnold Smith. Apparently he knew facts about both the Dahlia murder and another murder that could be related but he attributed his knowledge to someone he said was the real killer. Wilson died in a fire before detectives on the case could interview him. He had made a statement regarding the person he alledged was the real killer to Sheriff investigators. THose investigators had set up a meeting with detectives, but because he died it never happened.

I have that same book and I don't recall if I've ever read the Dahlia section. I read Douglas' interpretation in another place just recently and it seems I've only used that book as a reference for another case. Anyway...

I'll have to check that out!

I did look into the murder in Chicago, Susan Degnan and it was an interesting case. Apparently the murderer being the lipstick murderer was convicted but later recanted his confessions. I could see if this person was actually innocent, the real lipstick murderer would continue to kill. Not sure how to link that to LA, but it could happen I guess. Problem is i cannot accept a 12-13 year old did these things.

Whoa! You and I are so often on the same page! I've looked into the Degnan case and yes, it's interesting!

I don't think the convicted committed the Degnan murder and I'm not sure he committed any murders. It sounds to me like the Degnan murder is an isolated case, but I do think those other two murders are connected.

I think it's a case which should have it's own a thread.

[Regi]

I don't see any real evidence, nor have I ever heard any that elizabeth short knew about or was obsessed about those murders in Chicago more than anyone else alive at that time.

(I forgot this part of your post.)

Right, I agree. I don't understand what rationale could possibly be used to even suggest a link between those two cases.

I don't doubt that you know there are different reasons a perp will mutilate a body which are reasons specific to each case, but I think people don't always consider that.

Edited June 15, 2014 by regi

[No Censorship]

Actually, I find it surprising Cameron didn't pin a few more murders on Edwards.

Maybe he's saving that for the sequel. Next, he'll claim that Edwards is a distant cousin of the Hillside Stranglers. "He's the fifth Beatle and the fourth Stooge, but he set the Buonos on their homicidal path." This will be followed by a "Where's Edwards?" children's book, in which kids must find Edwards among the crowds at a hundred varied crime scenes.

[dr no]

I read John Douglas's book, The Cases That Still Haunt Us, and just dug it out and re-read the Dahlia section. Thanks for reminding me. I had forgotten he actually named a good suspect, Jack Anderson Wilson aka Arnold Smith. Apparently he knew facts about both the Dahlia murder and another murder that could be related but he attributed his knowledge to someone he said was the real killer. Wilson died in a fire before detectives on the case could interview him. He had made a statement regarding the person he alledged was the real killer to Sheriff investigators. THose investigators had set up a meeting with detectives, but because he died it never happened.

I did look into the murder in Chicago, Susan Degnan and it was an interesting case. Apparently the murderer being the lipstick murderer was convicted but later recanted his confessions. I could see if this person was actually innocent, the real lipstick murderer would continue to kill. Not sure how to link that to LA, but it could happen I guess. Problem is i cannot accept a 12-13 year old did these things.

I don't see any real evidence, nor have I ever heard any that elizabeth short knew about or was obsessed about those murders in Chicago more than anyone else alive at that time.

That is the suspect John Gilmore put forward in Severed,the only problem with it is that Gilmore was a bit fast and loose with the facts,some of the events and people in his book are completely fictional.If you follow this link you can see some of the falsehoods.

http://lmharnisch.com/home.html

[EmmasMommy]

Well ya'll, this has nothing to do with the topic at hand, but I just wanna say thank you. Even though we may have some different opinions and conclusions in relation to different cases, it seems we are all on the same page. It's so refreshing to be able to come here and have a well rounded conversation/discussion. Being able to bounce ideas and thoughts off one another is really helpful. Communication is the key. I believe so many of these cases could be put to rest if more people would be willing to simply listen and combined their knowledge. I myself have already learned so much. Again, thank you.

[Evan92]

I think casey anthony, jodi arias and oj simpson pooled there money together and built a time machine.