Bush accepts Iraq-Vietnam echoes

[AROCES]

What do we do to beat them?

Well i'd say trying to sway the hearts and minds of the moderate muslims, those who stradle the fence in this conflict

- Their heads are being cut off or being blown away.

So, what do you do?

[Avinash_Tyagi]

- Their heads are being cut off or being blown away.

So, what do you do?

You've got to make the people see you not as occupiers, and prove that you can improve the quality of their living conditions and that you are better than the insurgents (this also means you don't let some of the soldiers rape and kill families, and you don't torture people in prisons).

[UncleSam1776]

How about because Bush is loosing. Did you honestly think after destroying a countries infrastructure and killing people you would be greeted as liberators.

America also had a lot more troops in Nam fighting the NVA as well. At the peak of the war there were 540,000 troops in Nam. In Iraq the US only has 135,000 this is most likely why fatalities are down. Not to mention they actually wear body armor as well which explains the 20,000 or so injuries.

Again the US was actually fighting an Army in Nam and didn't wear body amor back then. They also had almost 4 times the ammount of troops in Nam who for the most part were kids drafted to goto war and never got adequete training.

This is not likely as they are too busy fighting eachother in a civil war.

Ok so to disprove my post about Iraq and Vietnam not being similar you post facts that support my theory?

Unlike Vietnam we actually hold the country.

Vietnam had almost four times as many troops as Iraq.

In Iraq we are wearing body armor, in Vietnam we weren't.

The troops in Vietnam were an army; the insurgents in Iraq are not.

The troops stationed in Vietnam were not the highly trained and organized trooped we are using in Iraq today.

So what exactly makes this war similar to Vietnam? I just don't see it no matter where I follow the information.

God Bless America!

[Atheist God]

Ok so to disprove my post about Iraq and Vietnam not being similar you post facts that support my theory?

Unlike Vietnam we actually hold the country.

I beg to differ if the US was in control of the country then How are the insurgencies and other groups getting guns in...Also there are like 60 million people in Iraq and not enough army to go around. Coalition forces are spread to thin.

Vietnam had almost four times as many troops as Iraq.

Thus higher casualty count then in Iraq.

In Iraq we are wearing body armor, in Vietnam we weren't.

This is another reason casualties are down and wounded up. Though less then 3000 casualties there are still over 20,000 wounded G.I.'s and that is a high number.

The troops in Vietnam were an army; the insurgents in Iraq are not.

They may not be an army but as someone mentioned before in this thread as long as they exist the war is lost. Violence and civil war now riddle that country. fact is for every insurgent you kill they recruit 2 others.

The troops stationed in Vietnam were not the highly trained and organized trooped we are using in Iraq today.

They may be trained but a huge chunk of those troops are still in their teens.

So what exactly makes this war similar to Vietnam? I just don't see it no matter where I follow the information.

God Bless America!

What makes this war similar to Nam is the fact that at this point it seems to be a lost cause. Every attempt the US and it's partners in crime have made has just destabalized that country even more. The more they push the harder they push back....

The US sure has the military to win a war no doubt but this war cannot be won militarily just like Nam could'nt be won militarily. The thing about Iraq is that the only to have won this war, was to capture the hearts and minds of Iraqi civilians and make them rally around your cause. They have failed to do this and so like Nam this war is lost.

=========

In Nam troops were warned not to take food from kids because they could have put razor blades or poisoned it. There was more then one case of troop injury and fatalities due to this. In Iraqi kids throw rocks at Coalition convoys and pretend to shoot them with plastic AK-47's.

[AROCES]

You've got to make the people see you not as occupiers, and prove that you can improve the quality of their living conditions and that you are better than the insurgents (this also means you don't let some of the soldiers rape and kill families, and you don't torture people in prisons).

- We are doing all those thigns in Iraq, but the Terrorist are trying to disrupt or cause chaos as a counter propaganda. And killing the MODERATES.

Of course you don't??? What made you think IF ANY rape or killing of families happened it was an order? If any of those things happened , you simply show them that the guilty ones are punished.

- The torture being done for really is nothing like pulling off their nails or burning them little by little. More of psychological torture to get vital information.

[Raptor Witness]

Yes because all the Public will care about is that they're continuing to kill our soldiers years after the war was supposed to be over and that 10 more coffins are coming back to the states.

The key to this war is Morale, that's what they're targeting

Not true. They care about the success of the effort. There doesn't appear to have been much planning when it came to the what if's. We're losing because these people hate one another, and no American intervention could help them with that. You don't cure hate by introducing violence, you will only add to it. Hence the ultimate motive behind this war may not be what it seems, because how could the smart people we've elected to office not have foreseen this? Being welcomed as liberators is one thing, but what are you liberating? Edited October 20, 2006 by Raptor Witness

[Cinders]

- Their heads are being cut off or being blown away.

So, what do you do?

I thought what this Marine submitted is very good.. I just wish someone would hear him. The article is called: 'In Anbar: 'We do not appear to be winning'

Part of what he mentions in this article:

"More than three and a half years after the war started, the population in Anbar seems to be no better off today than it was then.

The people here will quickly tell you that there is no clean water for them to drink. They will go on to tell you that there is hardly any power if they even get any at all.

The combat outpost that our adviser team occupies with the Iraqi army at times attempts to run off that same national power supply.

Generally, the people can get two, maybe, if they get lucky, four hours of power in any given day. Even when that national power supply is working, it is not enough to turn on more than one light in a room.

There is a gas station 500 meters away from our base, and it has not had fuel in over five months.

The key to winning the counterinsurgency battle is all about winning the people.

If you can win over the people, they will support your effort and you are more likely to be successful. It is with their support, and only with their support, that you will beat an insurgency.

If you cannot provide security for them and if you cannot provide the basics like power, water and fuel, you will never win the people.

The people we interact with on a daily basis have seen no positive change in their daily lives. Things today are no better than they were yesterday or even last year at this time.

The murder and intimidation campaign runs rampant because there are not enough service members to cover all the ground needed.

The bottom line is that there are not enough Iraqi security forces, Marines and soldiers to cover all the areas that need to be covered in order to provide the necessary security for the people to feel comfortable enough to help."

The full article he wrote is found here

I sent this article via email to Cheney and the White House, and hope they will think about it seriously.. I doubt it will be seen, but I at least tried.

[Avinash_Tyagi]

- We are doing all those thigns in Iraq, but the Terrorist are trying to disrupt or cause chaos as a counter propaganda. And killing the MODERATES.

Of course you don't??? What made you think IF ANY rape or killing of families happened it was an order? If any of those things happened , you simply show them that the guilty ones are punished.

- The torture being done for really is nothing like pulling off their nails or burning them little by little. More of psychological torture to get vital information.

We may have had our reasons and may be trying to punish those responsible but the fact remains that those events happened hurt our credibility with the Iraqis

Not true. They care about the success of the effort. There doesn't appear to have been much planning when it came to the what if's. We're losing because these people hate one another, and no American intervention could help them with that. You don't cure hate by introducing violence, you will only add to it. Hence the ultimate motive behind this war may not be what it seems, because how could the smart people we've elected to office not have foreseen this? Being welcomed as liberators is one thing, but what are you liberating.

But one measure of success is continued violence against our troops, but I agree that the invasion was badly planned from the start and without fully understanding the ethnic issues

[Unlimited]

Vietnam was a war being fought over a heroin supply...we lost 157,000+ kids...in iraq weve lost 2700 and the commodity is oil. wheres the comparison im baffled????

[AROCES]

I thought what this Marine submitted is very good.. I just wish someone would hear him. The article is called: 'In Anbar: 'We do not appear to be winning'

Part of what he mentions in this article:

"More than three and a half years after the war started, the population in Anbar seems to be no better off today than it was then.

The people here will quickly tell you that there is no clean water for them to drink. They will go on to tell you that there is hardly any power if they even get any at all.

The combat outpost that our adviser team occupies with the Iraqi army at times attempts to run off that same national power supply.

Generally, the people can get two, maybe, if they get lucky, four hours of power in any given day. Even when that national power supply is working, it is not enough to turn on more than one light in a room.

There is a gas station 500 meters away from our base, and it has not had fuel in over five months.

The key to winning the counterinsurgency battle is all about winning the people.

If you can win over the people, they will support your effort and you are more likely to be successful. It is with their support, and only with their support, that you will beat an insurgency.

If you cannot provide security for them and if you cannot provide the basics like power, water and fuel, you will never win the people.

The people we interact with on a daily basis have seen no positive change in their daily lives. Things today are no better than they were yesterday or even last year at this time.

The murder and intimidation campaign runs rampant because there are not enough service members to cover all the ground needed.

The bottom line is that there are not enough Iraqi security forces, Marines and soldiers to cover all the areas that need to be covered in order to provide the necessary security for the people to feel comfortable enough to help."

The full article he wrote is found here

I sent this article via email to Cheney and the White House, and hope they will think about it seriously.. I doubt it will be seen, but I at least tried.

- What about those servicemen who see progress and even complain why the progress is not being reported by the media? Do we then just listen to those who thinks we are failing?

[AROCES]

We may have had our reasons and may be trying to punish those responsible but the fact remains that those events happened hurt our credibility with the Iraqis

- I see no massive Iraqi dislike for the Americans inspite of those reports. So far those incident has only been beneficial for the ANTI WAR movement, they are the ones saying we are loosing our credidbiltiy, not the Iraqis.

[Cinders]

- What about those servicemen who see progress and even complain why the progress is not being reported by the media? Do we then just listen to those who thinks we are failing?

I understand that.. that Marine also said this in his article:

Habbaniyah, Iraq - Over seven months into my second deployment to Iraq, I feel compelled to express several concerns with the ongoing campaign.

While your average Marine, soldier and sailor on the ground is giving it everything he or she has on a daily basis, we seem to be making little progress against the insurgency in Anbar province.

Progress is being made training the Iraqi army. However, things could be progressing much faster if we would set the trainers up for success from the start and if we better supported the Iraqi army.

The area that I am most intimately familiar with is just a small piece of terrain tucked in the heart of the Sunni Triangle called Habbaniyah, between Ramadi and Fallujah.

The generalizations I will make below are based on my experiences in the area and conversations with my fellow Marines who are spread throughout Anbar province.

Like any generalization, there will be issues below that will not be true in every case, but, as a whole, I am confident that these generalizations hold true a vast majority of the time.

The U.S. government continues to focus on the good things happening in Iraq to keep up public opinion, while the media continues to focus on the bad while trying to make money.

Both agencies continue to spin the numbers in their favor, making them say what they want them to say.

I understand that the vast majority of Iraq is progressing and that even certain parts of Anbar have improved over time.

The following discussion represents some of the trials and tribulations that we have faced specifically in Anbar and some that can be applied to the entire country.

-----

Acroes, it is really hard for us to find out anything- and if it is true or not. I was just interested in what he had to say because it seems very honest and not trying to BS anyone. Know what I mean?

[Avinash_Tyagi]

- I see no massive Iraqi dislike for the Americans inspite of those reports. So far those incident has only been beneficial for the ANTI WAR movement, they are the ones saying we are loosing our credidbiltiy, not the Iraqis.

Quite the contrary, Iraqis have said they would prefer us to leave and that they view us as an occupying force, they may not hate us yet, but they don't like us.

[AROCES]

Quite the contrary, Iraqis have said they would prefer us to leave and that they view us as an occupying force, they may not hate us yet, but they don't like us.

- That is normal for them to want us to leave and not be there forever. Heck, we rather not be there ourselves.

Like I said, the ANTI WAR are the ones saying the Iraqis don't like us. Not the Iraqis.

[Avinash_Tyagi]

- That is normal for them to want us to leave and not be there forever. Heck, we rather not be there ourselves.

Like I said, the ANTI WAR are the ones saying the Iraqis don't like us. Not the Iraqis.

No they're also saying they don't like us and want us to leave (they don't hate us yet, but they don't like us either)

[Cinders]

Acroces,

I understand your point... I really do

But when we first went to Iraq, we were thought of as "Liberators" but now we are thought of as "occupiers" .. I heard this sort of thing in various videos, and documentaries as well as in various articles. I don't know how the government feels on that, but I know most Americans do not want to be known as "occupiers" *sigh*

I've been trying like h#ll to get the Fox News videos to work on their site today.. no matter what browser I use, videos just won't load!

This morning, I watched a Live News report TV on Fox news a story out of Ramadi.. I wished I had recorded it! I did find a bit about it on Fox, but it does not have a video nor any pictures (very frustrating) , but the article talks about what I was watching (my son-in-law is in Ramadi right now)

(This is what I saw on Live TV this morning - but what it says does not sound as frightening as what I watched) :

Iraqi Insurgents Stage Defiant Parades

Friday, October 20, 2006

Like the audacious show of force by up to 60 insurgents in the city of Ramadi on Wednesday, the latest parades _ including two less than a mile from U.S. military bases _ were staged in support of an announcement this week by a militant Sunni Arab group that it had created an Islamic state in six of Iraq's 18 provinces, including the capital, Baghdad.

Full article found HERE

I also tried to go to the VIDEO posted on Fox's main page under:

"Iraqi Soldiers Re-Take Southern CityAnti-American cleric Muqtada al-Sadr's militia briefly seized city of Amarah, laying siege to local police headquarters | VIDEO"

But I am only able to read the article, I can't play the video.. *sigh*

The article is about:

Al-Sadr's Shiite Militia Briefly Seizes Control of Southern Iraq City

Friday, October 20, 2006

BAGHDAD, Iraq — The Shiite militia run by the anti-American cleric Muqtada al-Sadr briefly seized control of the southern Iraqi city of Amarah on Friday in one of the boldest acts of defiance yet by the country's powerful, unofficial armies.

Full article found HERE

So with no luck on FOX web site, I headed off to Youtube in hopes that someone may have uploaded anything that Fox was reporting this morning.. and haven't found anything..

BUT, I did find something that brought me a smile.. well I actually LAUGHED! With so much bad news coming out of Iraq, and we are so very worried about DJ (my son-in-law) and his friends there in Ramadi, well this video made our day! It is sort of a relief to see this video..

This was uploaded October 8th, 2006 called:

Edited October 20, 2006 by Cinders

[AROCES]

No they're also saying they don't like us and want us to leave (they don't hate us yet, but they don't like us either)

YES! They want us to leave. But they want us to leave when they say so! Not when the liberals and the terrorist say so.

[AROCES]

BAGHDAD, Iraq — The Shiite militia run by the anti-American cleric Muqtada al-Sadr briefly seized control of the southern Iraqi city of Amarah on Friday in one of the boldest acts of defiance yet by the country's powerful, unofficial armies.

- The BOLDEST act of defiant that happened in Iraq is when the Iraqis voted defying the threat from the terrorist of killing anyone who votes!

- These groups of protesters are the very reason we are in there. They are the breeding grounds of the Terrorist. It's the typical Bin Laden NEST!

There are those who prefer to leave the Nest alone, build a fortress and hope they don't get in.

Edited October 20, 2006 by AROCES

[Cinders]

- The BOLDEST act of defiant that happened in Iraq is when the Iraqis voted defying the threat from the terrorist of killing anyone who votes!

- These groups of protesters are the very reason we are in there. They are the breeding grounds of the Terrorist. It's the typical Bin Laden NEST!

There are those who prefer to leave the Nest alone, build a fortress and hope they don't get in.

Yea.. I know.. but then I see videos like these

FOUND HERE posted October 8th, 2006 (takes a bit to load even if you are on broadband connection)

And see other things and read other things since their election well over a year ago, and it's just going from bad to worse.. Or maybe it seems like that because it's Ramadan. Last years Ramadan in Iraq was not this bad though.

That is why I think if someone does not come up with a better strategy soon (and not Bakers band-aide suggestion either!) .. all will be lost for Iraq as well as for America.

Edited October 21, 2006 by Cinders

[UncleSam1776]

What makes this war similar to Nam is the fact that at this point it seems to be a lost cause. Every attempt the US and it's partners in crime have made has just destabalized that country even more. The more they push the harder they push back....

The US sure has the military to win a war no doubt but this war cannot be won militarily just like Nam could'nt be won militarily. The thing about Iraq is that the only to have won this war, was to capture the hearts and minds of Iraqi civilians and make them rally around your cause. They have failed to do this and so like Nam this war is lost.

There you go relevant points. Viewing the two wars from this angle make them seem similar. The only problem with your view is that this is the first relevant points you made. IMO. These are not the only things which will decide the outcome. These points are the only similarities which have been expressed so far, and come a long way from convincing me, and it would appear several others.

God Bless America!

[Atheist God]

There you go relevant points. Viewing the two wars from this angle make them seem similar. The only problem with your view is that this is the first relevant points you made. IMO. These are not the only things which will decide the outcome. These points are the only similarities which have been expressed so far, and come a long way from convincing me, and it would appear several others.

God Bless America!

To be honest it doesn't matter if i convince you or not that this war like Nam appears to be a lost cause. The facts are America and it's partners are loosing the war in Iraq. Everytime an insugent dies they recruit 10 others to their cause.

If the Iraq war was going smooth there would'nt be so much bad news. If America wouldn't torture it's prisoners, kill innocent people and actually tried to set a good example for everyone like they used to, the world would not have so much hostility towards the USA.

Why is it the world seems to be so anti-america these days? I mean there has to be a reason right? If you say it's because they are better think again it's not true. America these days puts itself at the top of the pyramid and views itself as far superior and more civilized then everyone else. This type of mentality is a dangerous one have.

========

America should have never went to Iraq and made a big mess in the name of oil and profits. Instead they should have stayed in Afghanistan and completed their objective. Iraq was never a threat to US. For those who would say Saddam Hussein had Al Queda connections, I say otherwise. Saddam would have never givin any power to a foriegn force in HIS country when he was in power.

[The Silver Thong]

- I see no massive Iraqi dislike for the Americans inspite of those reports. So far those incident has only been beneficial for the ANTI WAR movement, they are the ones saying we are loosing our credidbiltiy, not the Iraqis.

I find this diturbing.

"So far those incident has only been beneficial for the ANTI WAR movement"

Umm could you point me to the group that is pro war movement? I don't think anyone is PRO WAR ! oh wait maybe it could be the one waging war right now and think it's just?

This "war" could take a very long time to solve, the death toll by the military the civilians and the insurgants ! that don't want america there could be much higher then if Sadam was going to attack the Kurds.

Ya I'm sure the people of iraq love Americans and the freedoms they have brought, it would be nice though if they could walk out there front doors and buy a paper with out being blown up or shot. Guess what, under Sadam they could do just that. Sadam is a monster, but who created that monster? Hmmm how did Sadam gain power? The U.S. gave him power. It's like Marry Shelly's Frankinstien. He created the monster and then must destroy it.

[supercar]

if you dont bring it then theres no debate, i win.

So in addition to making up rules for this message board,you have now declared yourself the 'winner'?

OK then prove the Iraq war has divided the US.

1.) 'you're either with us or against us' - a statement that divides.

2.) there are only two options ours, stay the course, which is right. and 'cut and run', which is everyone elses who doesn't agree with me, which is wrong. - a bunch of bs.

What. That's your proof? Hahahaha! You didn't prove anything!

his way is in year 3 and things are still getting worse

People have been saying things were getting worse since the day we invaded.

Edited October 21, 2006 by supercar

[supercar]

You're stuck in the old war mentality (this is anything but), the insurgency wins as long as it can survive and inflict casualties on allied forces.

All US/Coalition forces have to do to 'win' is stay in Iraq. So we're winning.

[supercar]

Did you honestly think after destroying a countries infrastructure and killing people you would be greeted as liberators.

American soldiers being greeted as liberators: