Powers

[rev r]

Does ESP count as a "power" or something? That's all I have. And I've been trying to control it. Of course I've always gotten frustured over it. ^^

To some people yes, Extra Sensory Perception is a "power." However in terms of learning to "control" it, I wouldn't worry too much. A couple of things I do suggest.

1. Do some research into the phenomena, but use your best judgement in determining which information is valid. As you plainly see there are many conflicting opinions concerning the subject. Don't try to fit yourself to the belief, but pay attention to how things are presented (ie, what are they claiming and what are they offering to back it up.)

2. (This should probably be number 1) Always look for the natural explaination first. A headache is just a headache rather than some type of attack, and a "vision" could be just daydreaming.

3. Keep notes. It's not very scientific, but blogs and journals can be useful tools. Record your experiences, dreams, impressions...just document everything in as much detail as you can. If things start getting really weird, start snapping photos. It's better (IMO) to approach these types of things like a detective or a journalist.

4. If you come across an experiment you can participate in, do so. You don't really have anything to lose.

cheers

[Princess Serenity]

To some people yes, Extra Sensory Perception is a "power." However in terms of learning to "control" it, I wouldn't worry too much. A couple of things I do suggest.

1. Do some research into the phenomena, but use your best judgement in determining which information is valid. As you plainly see there are many conflicting opinions concerning the subject. Don't try to fit yourself to the belief, but pay attention to how things are presented (ie, what are they claiming and what are they offering to back it up.)

2. (This should probably be number 1) Always look for the natural explaination first. A headache is just a headache rather than some type of attack, and a "vision" could be just daydreaming.

3. Keep notes. It's not very scientific, but blogs and journals can be useful tools. Record your experiences, dreams, impressions...just document everything in as much detail as you can. If things start getting really weird, start snapping photos. It's better (IMO) to approach these types of things like a detective or a journalist.

4. If you come across an experiment you can participate in, do so. You don't really have anything to lose.

cheers

Thank you. I wanted to "understand" what it was. And how to control if I could.

I'm pretty sure I have "ESP," since I felt something terrible was going to happen. And it did. =/

But thanks again.

[rev r]

Thank you. I wanted to "understand" what it was. And how to control if I could.

I'm pretty sure I have "ESP," since I felt something terrible was going to happen. And it did. =/

But thanks again.

Having a bad feeling then something bad happening isn't a very strong case for having ESP. It could just mean that you have very strong intuition or it could be a case of synchronicity.

Are these feelings consistent? Or did it just happen that one time?

[Princess Serenity]

True.

I'm listening to my feelings now. This feelings come & go really. I don't know.

[rev r]

True.

I'm listening to my feelings now. This feelings come & go really. I don't know.

That's one of the reasons I suggested a journal. That way you will know the frequency of these feelings and the circumstances in your life when you get these feelings. Establishing a pattern to your experiences may help you understand how to control them.

[Araezel]

"Knowing" when or what is going to happen before it does, or 'feeling' something is wrong, that type of thing is usually known as the 'intuition' and/or 'instincts.'

[ArchVile68]

i doubt that premonition is considered a power but it seemes related to this topic.

i have had a few, usually moments before they happen. it is kind of hard to provide proof of a thought, so you'll have to take my word for it. either you believe or you don't.

usually my predictions come as an unconscious thought, not enough to know what it means, only enough to know that it is there and it's going to happen very soon.

[Seraphyr]

Wow,

So many conflicting thoughts and opinions. I am glad that I was able to cause a ripple in the oceans of thought. Now, let us say for now that I agree with the so called " Skeptics" and said that if the so named "Believers" could produce no evidence of these powers then they should be disbarred and removed as naive immaturity. And this is good reason not to believe the believers. And trust me I have considered everything that I believe I could do to be nothing but an illusion created by my mind to indulge my fantasies of the paranormal. But then I ask myself, why would my mind's tricks and illusions be able to be made physically known to my friends. They do not have the same mind as me and yet some of them have made claims that I was able to do things. One told me that I spoke to her in the storms and wind, the elemental ability I supposedly have. I did not tell her anything of the sort. She called me and asked if I were upset and I told her yes and asked why, she told me that the wind had told her I was. And not only these things but like others here I have seen several dozens of events in my mind all of which later occurred. Yes there is such thing as instinct and intuition, but those cannot allow you to see the entire even like watching a movie or show. All I wish to say that if hundreds of people make these claims then how can they all be wrong. Not everyone has the same mind and shares the same delusions as another. And as for your proof, if you cannot disprove us and we cannot prove to you, then how do you know he are making this all up.

Thank you for either you skepticism or support.

[Atheist God]

Wow,

So many conflicting thoughts and opinions. I am glad that I was able to cause a ripple in the oceans of thought. Now, let us say for now that I agree with the so called " Skeptics" and said that if the so named "Believers" could produce no evidence of these powers then they should be disbarred and removed as naive immaturity. And this is good reason not to believe the believers. And trust me I have considered everything that I believe I could do to be nothing but an illusion created by my mind to indulge my fantasies of the paranormal. But then I ask myself, why would my mind's tricks and illusions be able to be made physically known to my friends. They do not have the same mind as me and yet some of them have made claims that I was able to do things. One told me that I spoke to her in the storms and wind, the elemental ability I supposedly have. I did not tell her anything of the sort. She called me and asked if I were upset and I told her yes and asked why, she told me that the wind had told her I was. And not only these things but like others here I have seen several dozens of events in my mind all of which later occurred. Yes there is such thing as instinct and intuition, but those cannot allow you to see the entire even like watching a movie or show. All I wish to say that if hundreds of people make these claims then how can they all be wrong. Not everyone has the same mind and shares the same delusions as another. And as for your proof, if you cannot disprove us and we cannot prove to you, then how do you know he are making this all up.

Thank you for either you skepticism or support.

I will dismiss your claims of the said above elemental stuff etc...Not because I don't want to beleive but I can't beleive based on heresay alone..

Hundreds of people who browse a forum called 'Unexplained-Mysteries'. This is the type of forum that attracts hoaxers and liars trying to play people and also people with mental instabilities who actually beleive this stuff. It's not hard to type something on a keyboard behind a monitor. By that logic until someone steps up to the plate with evidence of para/supernatural powers i conclude that they do not exist.

People with such powers can be scientifically studied with many methods under controlled conditions.

For example telepathy, forsight, telekinesis, magic and many other thing can be studied under controlled conditions. If people here can do such things why not end the skeptics debate they can't and go get that million dollar prize money.

I think the absense of evidence and proof from those making the claims they possess powers is enough to conclude that they do not exist. I really do wish such powers existed cause then i could figure out how to acheive them.

If people cannot validate their claims then they are lying or just plain crazy. Nothing personal here I just want validation which can be acheived. First thing people must accept is that someones word is not enough at least not for me or any credible scientists.

[Psibear]

Whoah Hold the Phone Psibear is here!!!

Okay there is scientific proof of psychic abilities or at least the fact that thoughts directly affect all life and all matter... you know quantum physics... You can try watching "What the bleep do we know" online...they take both scientist and proclaimed psychics mystics and things of the sort and let them sort of talk about thoughts and reality.

Its not a great plot line but the information is very good presesnted in a psychically scientific or a scientifically psychic manner. it goes into a bunch of stuff...you can also read the book all is done by credible people and can be proved by science.

Oh and everyone should just realize that psychics aren't going to generate results you know skeptics if you were really looking for proof you think you would go to a more credible site not one that attracts hoaxes.

Psychics need to understand that skeptics have a point eventually you will have to prove yourself.

Oh and a lot of people here have sort of either moved past 1 million dollars or arent confident enough to try or they are like a teenager and can't exactly convince their parents to let them go. But thats just my thoughts. Oh yeah an absence of proof doesn't mean something doesn't exist. You know the gorilla was thought to be a mythical creature to the whole world except africa until on day an english hunter happened to shoot a large monkey like man creature...you know a gorilla.

Anyway I really recommend everyone to try and watch or read what the bleep do we know...oh and the secret...larry king live had people from the secret come on to talk about how peoples thoughts shape their reality.

<********"http://purple.forumwise.com/" target="_blank">Purple.com...on the left you'll see what the bleep do we know in three part videos...srry its the best i could do.

<********"http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0611/02/lkl.01.html" target="_blank">Larry King Live teanscript from CNN

Edited November 30, 2006 by Psibear

[Atheist God]

Whoah Hold the Phone Psibear is here!!!

Okay there is scientific proof of psychic abilities or at least the fact that thoughts directly affect all life and all matter... you know quantum physics... You can try watching "What the bleep do we know" online...they take both scientist and proclaimed psychics mystics and things of the sort and let them sort of talk about thoughts and reality.

The 'quantum' world if it was a world would be one where everything is unpredictable. Just because you can think it does not make something real. But what quantum physics states is that if it can be thought of then there is a chance of it happening. There is a very slim almost impossible chance that you could walk through a wall if you try enough times. By that logic there is a also a very slim possibility that someone if they try enough could effect reality with there thoughts.

Its not a great plot line but the information is very good presesnted in a psychically scientific or a scientifically psychic manner. it goes into a bunch of stuff...you can also read the book all is done by credible people and can be proved by science.

There has never been a study that concludes psychic phenomenon is real if there was skeptics would not have a basis to argue.

Oh and everyone should just realize that psychics aren't going to generate results you know skeptics if you were really looking for proof you think you would go to a more credible site not one that attracts hoaxes.

Many of us have looked beyond this forum for proof and come up empty handed. This forum is just used as a place for us to discuss whats real and whats not.

Psychics need to understand that skeptics have a point eventually you will have to prove yourself.

That's right if you talk the talk then you certainly have to walk the walk.

Oh and a lot of people here have sort of either moved past 1 million dollars or arent confident enough to try or they are like a teenager and can't exactly convince their parents to let them go. But thats just my thoughts. Oh yeah an absence of proof doesn't mean something doesn't exist. You know the gorilla was thought to be a mythical creature to the whole world except africa until on day an english hunter happened to shoot a large monkey like man creature...you know a gorilla.

I don't care who you are no one is past a million dollars and those who say that know they cannot pass the required tests to acheive this prize money. So many people claim they have these powers yet not one has stepped up and claimed the prize. As for the gorilla we at that point knew other primates besides our selves existed but this thread is not about the discovery of the gorilla it is about psychic powers. Psychic powers cannot be seen or touched they have to be demonstrated and no one has successfully shut done skeptics who doubt them. The gorilla comparrison is really irrelevant in this case, however would be more relevant if you were debating sasquatch or the ogopogo lake monster etc.

Anyway I really recommend everyone to try and watch or read what the bleep do we know...oh and the secret...larry king live had people from the secret come on to talk about how peoples thoughts shape their reality.

I watch the videos when I have time although I would appreciate it if you posted direct links to the videos and not some other forum that i have to copy then paste into my address bar.

[Jjbreen]

I am of the conviction that Science can measure and document - but I also know that science may not be able to explain the dynamics that are at play.

Take the finding that the medical community has admitted that "prayer" does make a differnce.

But they cannot tell you the dynamics that are at play. Just that they have physical, medical and such documentation of before & after prayer.

Now this is prayer in general and not any specific religion.

This can also be done in any and all Psi as well - it can be tested, documented, but the understanding very well could not be there. They could only offer various theories of the dynamics that are at play....

I know two people that tried a test 3500 miles apart with an EEG machine. They thought for sure it would fail - it was a test just for the fun. They expected failure. IF it would work their expectation was little to no EEG measurements. But what did happen is that the electrolyte jell basically 'shorted out'. Not a ll what they expected. This was done several times a month over a years period. Do they know and/or understand what happened? NO - they just know what happened and that it always had to do with "NOW" - when the one 3500 miles away would focus his thoughts on the room. This was done several years back and to this day, they still wonder exactly what happen

So measuring, validating and such is easy to do - understanding the dynamics is another story totally!!

[rev r]

Whoah Hold the Phone Psibear is here!!!

Okay there is scientific proof of psychic abilities or at least the fact that thoughts directly affect all life and all matter... you know quantum physics... You can try watching "What the bleep do we know" online...they take both scientist and proclaimed psychics mystics and things of the sort and let them sort of talk about thoughts and reality.

Yes the research has been done, but the the results are inconclusive. While some subjects did score above chance in small samples, the larger samples showed no deviation from chance. What we are getting from the quantum physics camp is a hypothesis of how consciousness interacts with "physical" reality. In essence, a scientific explaination of things that are often left in the realm of Spirituality and Metaphysics. What I have been reading usually regards non-locality which has experimental data to back it up. Biological use of non-locality is just a hypothesis. If I'm wrong, please provide the experimental data to demonstrate my incorrectness.

Oh and everyone should just realize that psychics aren't going to generate results you know skeptics if you were really looking for proof you think you would go to a more credible site not one that attracts hoaxes.

Far as I can tell they aren't even trying. It's not just up to the skeptics, it's up to the beleivers as well to "police" communities. Any site that is open to the public concerning such phenomena is going to attract hoaxers, self-proclaimed prophets, and kids looking to be special. Any believers who want to be taken seriously should help provide a credible environment and that means being responsible in how claims are presented. Science won't prove the claim, but it will offer more support.

It's like building a house. It has to have a good foundation and support to hold up the structure. What we are getting from the believers is nothing more than a house of cards. Folks like to toss around buzz-words like "quantum mechanics," "meditation," and "the proof is out there," but unless people start providing that proof (I'd even go for a plausible scientific hypothesis) it's just words. The burden is on the claimants in this case.

Psychics need to understand that skeptics have a point eventually you will have to prove yourself.

As such maybe we need to think of a standard of proof. Just saying "well, prove it," isn't good enough in my book. For example PK is supposed to be the mind affecting the physical realm. The effect can be measured. If for example you claim to create a construct that has properties of temperature, then surely you can measure this temperature difference. Let's say chill a glass of water two degrees. This task is easily measured. Besides it's always better to practice with a goal in mind.

Oh yeah an absence of proof doesn't mean something doesn't exist.

Absence of proof means nothing can be said about a topic that isn't speculation. In honesty all we have concerning the subject is opinion. Opinions only have the value you put into them. So far the more convincing arguement lies in the skeptical camp.

You know the gorilla was thought to be a mythical creature to the whole world except africa until on day an english hunter happened to shoot a large monkey like man creature...you know a gorilla.

Exactly it was a myth until proof was presented. Until someone shoots the gorilla of psi, it too will remain myth. An intriguing myth (IMO), but a myth nonetheless.

[brave_new_world]

Yes the research has been done, but the the results are inconclusive. While some subjects did score above chance in small samples, the larger samples showed no deviation from chance. What we are getting from the quantum physics camp is a hypothesis of how consciousness interacts with "physical" reality. In essence, a scientific explaination of things that are often left in the realm of Spirituality and Metaphysics. What I have been reading usually regards non-locality which has experimental data to back it up. Biological use of non-locality is just a hypothesis. If I'm wrong, please provide the experimental data to demonstrate my incorrectness.

Far as I can tell they aren't even trying. It's not just up to the skeptics, it's up to the beleivers as well to "police" communities. Any site that is open to the public concerning such phenomena is going to attract hoaxers, self-proclaimed prophets, and kids looking to be special. Any believers who want to be taken seriously should help provide a credible environment and that means being responsible in how claims are presented. Science won't prove the claim, but it will offer more support.

What skepticism from a buddhist philosopher! Even the buddhists of old recognized the existence of pyshic abitilites and other supernormal powers such as levitation, miraculous healing, clairvoyancy etc... However all these feats have little to do with true spiritualality. hence why buddha showed little interest to them.

In one of the Pali scriptures there is an anecdote recording Buddha's own characteristically dry comment on a prodigious feat of levitation performed by one of his disciples. "This," he said, "Will not conduce to the conversion of the unconverted, nor to the advantage of the converted." Then he went back to talking about deliverance.

[rev r]

What skepticism from a buddhist philosopher! Even the buddhists of old recognized the existence of pyshic abitilites and other supernormal powers such as levitation, miraculous healing, clairvoyancy etc... However all these feats have little to do with true spiritualality. hence why buddha showed little interest to them.

In one of the Pali scriptures there is an anecdote recording Buddha's own characteristically dry comment on a prodigious feat of levitation performed by one of his disciples. "This," he said, "Will not conduce to the conversion of the unconverted, nor to the advantage of the converted." Then he went back to talking about deliverance.

Is mindfulness not skeptical by it's nature?

I've been called many things in my days BNW my friend, but "philosopher" is definately a new one.

I'm not a Buddhist of old.

[Seraphyr]

Alright, I have really enjoyed today's readings. Honestly this thread has lasted about three days longer than I had expected. I am glad to know there are such opinionated people out there and I thank you for your comments. Okay skeptics lets look at your p.o.v. for a minute. You say that there is no credible proof for these claims. Well in my high school library, there are books which have documented and proven occurrences more than that of chance. These of which I have personally read. Now as for the abilities affecting reality. In martial arts it is believed that one can harness the so called chi energy to provide a much stronger and forceful strike. I claim nothing of reality-altering, world-warping powers, but the capability to manipulate this energy. That of which the ancient Chinese, Japanese, Buddhist, Korean, and even Indian cultures believed in, each under a different name but still a universal energy either way. Now for your science. In all science there is talk of forces such as gravity and kinetic forces right? Well it's the same principle. Scientists can manipulate these energies to produce results, well why not the same with ones own mental energy and outside energies from plants, animals and such. I recently watched a documentation of a martial arts master who believed he could manipulate this energy. For proof he had his efforts documented by two skeptical scientists. Both of which watched and documented his classes, envolving children-adults. One of the feats performed in his class was where he would line up a group of random people observing the class. He would then focus and the force his " Chi" into the people and purposely causing only the last one to collapse. He also does this with a single person without actually physical contact. Sure it could ave been tampered with by the camera man but still with people actually documenting these abilities it's hard to say there is no proof. And even more recently a document from the discovery channel on child and twin psychics was aired. A institute for lack of a better term called the "Place of Light" was created as a daycare for supposed psychic children where their attempts where documented. All I am saying is that "there is proof out there" forgive the usage of this certain phrase, but most just neglect it and decide it is useless banter. And so I have decided to neglect and disbar your claims of no proof. I can't wait to hear your responces to this. Thank you for actually helping to keep this thread's heart beating.

[3rd rock resident alien]

I see google stock to breach 500 on Monday.

[brave_new_world]

Alright, I have really enjoyed today's readings. Honestly this thread has lasted about three days longer than I had expected. I am glad to know there are such opinionated people out there and I thank you for your comments. Okay skeptics lets look at your p.o.v. for a minute. You say that there is no credible proof for these claims. Well in my high school library, there are books which have documented and proven occurrences more than that of chance. These of which I have personally read. Now as for the abilities affecting reality. In martial arts it is believed that one can harness the so called chi energy to provide a much stronger and forceful strike. I claim nothing of reality-altering, world-warping powers, but the capability to manipulate this energy. That of which the ancient Chinese, Japanese, Buddhist, Korean, and even Indian cultures believed in, each under a different name but still a universal energy either way. Now for your science. In all science there is talk of forces such as gravity and kinetic forces right? Well it's the same principle. Scientists can manipulate these energies to produce results, well why not the same with ones own mental energy and outside energies from plants, animals and such. I recently watched a documentation of a martial arts master who believed he could manipulate this energy. For proof he had his efforts documented by two skeptical scientists. Both of which watched and documented his classes, envolving children-adults. One of the feats performed in his class was where he would line up a group of random people observing the class. He would then focus and the force his " Chi" into the people and purposely causing only the last one to collapse. He also does this with a single person without actually physical contact. Sure it could ave been tampered with by the camera man but still with people actually documenting these abilities it's hard to say there is no proof. And even more recently a document from the discovery channel on child and twin psychics was aired. A institute for lack of a better term called the "Place of Light" was created as a daycare for supposed psychic children where their attempts where documented. All I am saying is that "there is proof out there" forgive the usage of this certain phrase, but most just neglect it and decide it is useless banter. And so I have decided to neglect and disbar your claims of no proof. I can't wait to hear your responces to this. Thank you for actually helping to keep this thread's heart beating.

It is a good thread. And that was well written and intriguing. It is amazing the passionate skepticism scientists show to all these possibilities. It is just the same as being religiously indoctrinated.

The fact that Newtonian science or classical physics relies on empty space being empty and atoms being solid to validate their model and yet atoms are anything but solid and empty space is anything but empty(dark matter).

People want scientific validation on psychic powers right?? And proof of other potentials of reality shamans and mystics believed in thousands of years ago that quantum physics is tapping into anyway, right??? Ok then I will take me a while but I'll write some pieces of information from a scientific book called "The holographic universe which will hopefully give some people here some info of the crazy world scientists and religious leaders want to make boring with their packaged concepts. Michael Talbot(God Allah bless) is a quantum physicist. So at least the book was written by someone scientific.

Miracles happen, not in opposition to Nature, but in opposition to what we know of Nature.----St. Augustine(christian mystic)

In one series of experiments Jahn and his associate, clinical psychologist Brenda Dunne, employed a device called a random event generator, or REG. By relyingon an unpredictable natural process such as radioactive decay, a REG is able to produce a string like this: 1,2,1,2,2,1,1,2,1,1,1,2,1. In other words, a REG is a kind of automatic coinflipper capable of producing an enormous number of coin flips in a very short time. As everyone knows, if you flip a perfectly weighted coin 1,000 times, the odds are you will get a 50/50 split between heads and tails. In reality, out of any 1,000 such flips, the split may vary a little in one direction or the other, but the greater the number of flips, the closer to 50/50 the split will become.

What Jahn and Dunne did was have volunteers sit in front of the REG and concentrate on having it produce an abnormally large numer of either headsor tails. Over the course of literally hundreds of thousands of trials they discovered that, through concentration alone, the volunteers did indeed have a small but statistically significant effect on the REG's output. They discovered two other things as well. The ability to produce PK effects was not limited to a few gifted individuals but was present in the majority of volunteers they tested. This suggests that most of us possess some degree of PK. They also discovered that different volunteers produced different and consistently distinctive results, results that were so idiosyncratic that Jahn and Dunne started calling them "signitures." Page 123

OK, IM SORRY I CANT BE BOTHERED ANY MORE ON THIS EXAMPLE OR ON OTHER ONES TAKEN IN LABS, TOO MUCH TO WRITE. IM PUTTING ALL MY ENERGY INTO THIS BIG ONE. AN AWESOME READ. IF YOU CAN'T BELIEVE IN THE POSSIBILITY OF THE AFORE-MENTIONED ONE THEN DONT BOTHER WITH THE NEXT ONE IM ABOUT TO WRITE(AND FINISH BY THE TIME YOUS ARE READING IT).

mass psychokinesis in eighteenth-century franceAWESOME READ THIS ONE!!!!!!!!!

Such incidents notwithstanding, one of the most astounding manifestations of psychokinesis, and one of the most remarkable displays of miraculous events ever recorded, took place in Paris in the first half of the eighteenth century. The events centered around a puritanical sect of Dutch-influenced Catholics known as the Jansenists, and were precipitated by the death of a saintly and revered Jansenist deacon named Francois de Paris. Although few people living today have even heard of the Jansenist miracles, they were one of the most talked about events in Europe for the better part of a century.

To iunderstand fully the Jansenist miracles, it is necessary to know a little about the historical events that preceded Francois de Paris's death. Jansenism was founded in the early seventeenth century, and from the start it was at odds with both the Roman Catholic Church and French monarchy. Many of the beliefs diverged sharply with standard chrch doctrine but it was a popular movement and quickly gained followers among the French populace. Most damning of all, it was viewed by both papacy and King Louis XV, a devout Catholic, as Protestantism only masquerading as Catholicism. As a result, both the chruch and the king were constantly maneuvering to undermine the movement's power. One obstacle to these manueverings, and one of the factors that contributed to the movement's popularity, was that Jansenist leaders seemed especiallyskilled at performing miraculous healings. Nonetheless, the church and the monarchy persevered, causing fierce debates to rage throughout France. It was on May 1,1727, at the height of this power struggle, that Francois de Paris deid and was interred in the parish cemetery of Saint-Medard, Paris.

Because of the abbe's saintly reputation, worshipers began to gather at his tomb, and from the beginning a host of miraculous healings were reported. The ailments thus cured included cancerous tumors, paralysis, deafness, arthritis, rheumatism, ulcerous sores, persistent fevers, prolonged hemorrhaging, and blindness. But this was not all. The mourners also started to experience strange involuntary spasms or convulsions and to undergo the most amazing contortions of thier limbs. These seizures quickly proved contagious, spreading like a brush fire until the streets were packed with men, women, and children, all twisting and writhing as if caught up in a surreal enchantment.

It was while they were in this fitful and trancelike state that the "convulsionaires," as they have come to be called, displayed the most phenomenal of their talents. One was the ability to endure without harm an almost unimaginable variety of physical tortures. These included severe beatings, blows from both heavy and sharp objects, and strangulation---all with no sign of injury, or even the slightest trace of wounds or bruises.

What makes these miraculous events so unique is that they were witnessed by literally thousands of observers. The frenzied gatherings around Abbe Paris's tomb were by no means short-lived. The cemetery and the streets surrounding it were crowded day and night for years, and even two decades later miracles were stills being reported(to give some idea of the enormity of the phenomena, in 1733 it was noted in the public records that over 3,000 volunteers were needed simply to assist the convulsionaires and make sure, for example, that the female participants did not become immodestly exposed during their seizsures).

As a result, the supernomral abilities of the convulsionaries became an international cause celebre, and thousands flocked to see them, including individuals from all social strata and officials from every educational, religious, and governmental institution imaginable; numerous accounts, both official and unofficial , of the miracles witnessed are recorded in the documents of the time. Moreover, many of the witnesses, such as the investigators from the Roman Catholic Church , had a vested interest in refuting the Jansenist miracles, but they still went away confirming them( the Roman Catholic Church later remedied this embarrassing state of affairs by conceding that the miracles existed but were the work of the devil, hence proving that the Jansenists were depraved).

One investigator, a member of the Paris Parliament named Louis- Basile Carre de Montgeron, witnesses enough miracles to fill four four thick volumes on the subject, which he published in 1737 under the title La Verite des Miracles. In the work he provides numerous examples of the convulsionaire's apparent invulnerability to torture. In one instance a twenty-year-old convulsionarie named Jeanne Maulet leaned against a stone wall while a volunteer from the crowd, "a very strong man," delivered one hundred blows to her stomach with a thirty-pound hammer(the convulsionaires themselves asked to be tortured because they said it relieved the excrutiating pain of the convulsions). To test the force of the blows, Montgeron himself then took the hammer and tried it on the stone wall against which the girl had leaned. HE wrote, "At the twenty-fifth blow the stone upon which I struck, which had been shaken by the preceding efforts, suddenly became loose and fell on the other side of the wall, making an aperture more than half a foot in size."

Montgeron describes another instance in which a convulsionaire bent back into an arc so that her lower back was supported by "the sharp point of a peg." She then asked that a fifty-pound stone attached to a rope be hoisted to "an extreme height" and allowed to fall with all its weight on her stomach. The stone was hoisted up and allowed to fall with all its weight again and again, but the woman seemed completely unaffected by it. She effortlessly maintained her awkward position, suffered no pain or harm, and walked away from the ordeal without even so much as a mark on the flesh of her back. Montgeron noted that while the ordeal was in progress she kept crying out, "Strike harder, harder!"

In fact, it appears that othing could harm the convulsionaires. They could not be hurt by the blows of metal rods, chains, or timbers. The strongest men could not choke them. Some were crufcified and afterward showed no trace of wounds. Most mind boggling of all, they could not even be cut or punctured with knives, swords, or hatchets! Montgeron cites an incident in which the sharpened point of an iron drill was held against the stomach of a convulsionaire and then pounded so violently with a hammer that it seemed "as if it would penetrate through the spine and rupture all the entrails." Butit didn;t, and the convulsionaire maintained an "expression of perfect rapture," crying "Oh, that does me good! Courage, brother;strike twice as hard, if you can!"

Invulnerability was not the only talent the Jansenists displayed during their seizures. Some became clairvoyant and were able to "discern hidden things. Others could read even when their eyes were closed and tightly bandaged, and instances of lveitation were reported. One of the levitators, an abbe named Bescherand from Montpellier, was so "forcibly lifted into the air" during his convulsion that even when the witnesses tried to hold him down they could not succeed in keeping him from rising off the ground.

Although we have all but forgotten about the Jansenist miracles today, they were far from ignored by the intelligtsia of the time. The niece of the mathematician and philosopher Pascal succeeded in having a severe ulcer in her eye vanish within hours as a result of a Jansenist miracle. When King Louis XV tried unsuccessfully to stop the convulsionaires by closing the cemetery of saint-Medard, Voltaire quipped, "God was forbidden, by order of the King, to work any miracles there." And in his Pilosophical Essays the Scottish philosopher David Hume wrote, "There surely never was so great a number f miracles ascribed to one person as those which were lately said to have been wrought in France upon the tomb of Abbe Paris. Many of the miracles were immediately proved upon the spot, before judges of unquestioned credit and distinction, in a learned age, and on the most eminent theatre that is now in the world."

How are we to explain the miracles produced by the convulsionaires?? Although Bohm is willing to consider the possibility of PK and other paranormal phenomena, he prefers not to speculate about specific events such as the supernormal abilities of the Jansenists. But once again, if we take the testimony of so many witnesses seriously, unless we are willing to concede that God favoured the Jansenist Catholics over the Roman, PK seems the likely explaination.

That some kind of psychic fucntioning was involved is strongly suggested by the appearance of other psychic abilities, such as clairvoyance, during the seizures. In addition, we have already looked at a number of examples where intense faith and hysteria have triggered the deeper forces of the mind, and thesetoo were present in ample portions. In fact, instead of being produced by one individual, the psychokinetic effects may have been created by the combined fervor and belief of all those present, and this might account for the unusual vigor of the manifestations. This idea is not new. In the 1920s the great Harvard psycologist William McDougall also suggested that religious miracles might be the result of the collective psychic powers of large numbers of worshipers.

PK would explain many of the convulsionaire's seeming invulnerabilities. In the case of Jeanne Maulet it could be argued that she unconsciously used PK to block the effect of the hammer blows. If the chains, timbers, and knives, and stop them in their tracks at the prcise moment of impact, it would also explain why these objects left no marks or bruises. Similarly, when individuals tried to strangle the Jansensists, perhaps their hands were held in place by PK and although they thought they were squeezing flesh, they were really only flexing in the nothingness.pAGES 128-132

ANY THOUGHTS??? ANY SKEPTICS TO THAT?? LETS FACE IT, IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN PSYCHIC POWER OR ABILITY YOU MUST BE PRETTY IGNORANT. SO OPEN YOUR MINDS PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!

Edited December 1, 2006 by brave_new_world

[psychosis]

I prefer to think of 'powers' as untapped talents. The mind is a powerful tool, it's just that people don't believe that they (and humans in general) can do certain things. Which is exactly what I have trouble with.

[rantrail]

i can use fire and others i cant name!

[rev r]

Seraphyr:

1. There is an entire thread concerning Geroge Dillman and his "touchless knockouts." We (well G.G. and myself) pretty much agree that it was a case of the Placebo Effect. That in itself says a lot for the ability of the human mind. The worst parts about it though were the lame excuses he offered when it didn't work on the skeptical scientist and the fact that there is danger in the way these techniques are presented. Even the most stalwart believer must admit that flinging chi balls at people is not very practical self-defense.

2. It should be noted, that often I have seen certain Eastern schools of spiritual thought invoked as "proof" that there is some form of mystical energy that powers this phenomena. Modern physics has offered evidence as to the validity of certain Buddhist ideals. However simply because Taoism or Buddhism mentions prana or chi does not present the case for it being real. In fact the Dalai Lama states in his book The Universe in a Single Atom if science provides evidence contrary to Buddhist thought, then Buddhist thought should change to embrace the scientific evidence. Besides, universal energy is not a central concept in Buddhist doctrine. Sorry but that is a weak arguement. Do try again though.

Give me a little time to gather my thoughts concerning the rest of your post.

BNW:

I was wondering when you were going to drop another one of your epics on me. It's going to take some time to delve into the content and give you a good response, but I do have a surface comment.

Believers should take note, this is how to present your case. Don't just say "it's out there," take some time to present the contrary evidence.

[Asbestos]

I find anything involving special powers or psi energy and whatnot to be complete nonsense. I bet over half the people in this forum are little 12-13 year olds coming on here claiming to have a "incredible supernatural ability", but surely enough they are regular children who strive for that extra bit of attention. Plus most of them are into that mango anime stuff, such as super metal alchemist or whatever, which can explain how they convince even themselves into believeing they have "powers".

[brave_new_world]

I find anything involving special powers or psi energy and whatnot to be complete nonsense. I bet over half the people in this forum are little 12-13 year olds coming on here claiming to have a "incredible supernatural ability", but surely enough they are regular children who strive for that extra bit of attention. Plus most of them are into that mango anime stuff, such as super metal alchemist or whatever, which can explain how they convince even themselves into believeing they have "powers".

Did you read my last post?? Can you call that "nonsense".??

[brave_new_world]

2

Give me a little time to gather my thoughts concerning the rest of your post.

BNW:

I was wondering when you were going to drop another one of your epics on me. It's going to take some time to delve into the content and give you a good response, but I do have a surface comment.

Believers should take note, this is how to present your case. Don't just say "it's out there," take some time to present the contrary evidence.

I really look forward to your response!

[rev r]

I really look forward to your response!

Ok so I've been doing some homework on Jahn and Dunne (one thing at a time). Here is a link to one of their papers on the subject.

Correlations of Random Binary Sequences with Pre-Stated Operator Intention: A Review of a 12 Year Program

I haven't gotten to far into it but I think it's the same study you cited from The Holographic Universe.

Just figured I'd drop that for anyone who is interested.