Morals and atheists

[IamsSon]

Well, they are seperate. One is based on the fear of an ancient story while the other is based on rational thought.

That's assuming that believers do things--or don't do them-- out of fear. But those of us who believe all of our sins are forgiven, both past and future and, therefore have nothing to fear, feel the same need to be moral that everyone else does. So, it is not a separate reason, if anything there is an enhanced reason: "I will not commit murder because it is a SIN, AND because it violates my personal code of ethics."

So, where someone may argue with himself, "Normally this goes against my code of ethics, but I really want to do it, so I will just violate my PERSONAL code of ethics this time and then forgive myself for it," we also know that we are violating a code of ethics established and maintained by an outside influence which will not be easily swayed to accept the occasional violation.

[Chauncy]

Why not both? Why not "I will not commit murder, for it is a sin, AND it goes against my own personal code of ethics". It's not necessarily an either/or situation

The point being that we do not need a book (bible) to teach us how to live, we do not need a book to lay out what is morally just and what is wrong. Atheists are proof of this fact.

[__Kratos__]

That's assuming that believers do things--or don't do them-- out of fear. But those of us who believe all of our sins are forgiven, both past and future and, therefore have nothing to fear, feel the same need to be moral that everyone else does. So, it is not a separate reason, if anything there is an enhanced reason: "I will not commit murder because it is a SIN, AND because it violates my personal code of ethics."

So, where someone may argue with himself, "Normally this goes against my code of ethics, but I really want to do it, so I will just violate my PERSONAL code of ethics this time and then forgive myself for it," we also know that we are violating a code of ethics established and maintained by an outside influence which will not be easily swayed to accept the occasional violation.

Only forgiven if you ask to be forgiven so may the light of Christ wash over your body and rid you of your awful sins against God and all his creation. To ask to be forgiven means you don't want to be sent to the firey pits of hell for all of eternity with the devil himself!

So then you do see that there are ethics outside of religion for personal reasons and such... That means atheists have morals to by your own logic.

[IamsSon]

Only forgiven if you ask to be forgiven so may the light of Christ wash over your body and rid you of your awful sins against God and all his creation. To ask to be forgiven means you don't want to be sent to the firey pits of hell for all of eternity with the devil himself!

So then you do see that there are ethics outside of religion for personal reasons and such... That means atheists have morals to by your own logic.

Kratos, I never argued they don't. The question I asked was, "Where do atheists get their morals from?" I know atheists can be--and I believe most are-- moral people. I believe that atheists morals are so similar if not exactly the same as those of religious people because they basically are modelling the morals of the society around them, and that society gets it's moral code from religious backgrounds.

Additionally, I did not accept Christ because I wanted to avoid hell. I accepted Christ because I wanted to have the sense of peace, the ability to love and accept, and the just obvious joy that the people I met in that first non-Catholic church I went to had. I understood that the state I was in was leading to eternal death, but it wasn't so much what I was running from than what I was running to that led me to Christ.

[ivytheplant]

So if morals are merely influenced by leftover religious backgrounds, where does that leave atheists who were raised by atheists who were raised by atheists, paleolithic tribes living today which have had limited to no contact until recently, cultures that have a strong religious background but no (apparent) moral code or a moral code that is opposite of ours, etc.

Not to mention societies that existed prior to Abrahamic religions.

[KBA]

Hello all.

My question is for the atheists out there. I have always wondered what role morals play in the life of an atheist. For (most) Christians they try to live their life in accordance with what the bible teaches and try to follow the example of Jesus as best they can. No one is perfect and mistakes are made but that is all part of the learning process. Christians do this for a couple of reasons: 1) because that’s what the Lord has taught and commanded. 2) They believe that when they die they will be judged and held accountable for the choices they made while in this life. And thus we earn our reward or punishment as the various religions believe.

Now don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying, nor do I believe all atheists are some how immoral and evil people, because I know there are a lot of immoral Christians out there. I just think if you believe you die and that’s it, you cease to exist, there are no consequences, why be a “good” person? Why not lie, cheat, steal or do whatever it takes to get ahead in this life? Why follow any laws that originate from a historically religious background? If you are envious of your neighbor’s property, why not kill him and take it? Or is the fear of getting caught and subjected to the laws of the land enough to stop you? If there wasn’t a law against murdering another person, would it be wrong to an atheist? After all, is it not all about natural selection, survival of the fittest?

It's a question of ethics. What is ethical and what is not. It is unethical to murder another person without a VERY good reason to do so. We are not wild men, we have a conscience. But for example, sex is not unethical for atheists. Maybe immoral for christians, but only because their Bible tells them that. It's natural to atheists, (As it is natural for humans) so atheists generally don't think that sex before marriage is wrong. Instead of expecting judgement in the afterlife, we know that what we do affects the real world around us. If I lie to someone, my standing with them will decrease.. Instead of my standing with god decreasing.

[Reincarnated]

I don't need Christianity to teach me morals. I already have them and practice them daily. I don't need to use the bible as a crutch to be a caring person, I can do it on my own. It's called common sense and I follow my own religion, not an organized one. I guess you can call me agnostic.

Edited December 10, 2006 by Reincarnated

[IamsSon]

So if morals are merely influenced by leftover religious backgrounds, where does that leave atheists who were raised by atheists who were raised by atheists, paleolithic tribes living today which have had limited to no contact until recently, cultures that have a strong religious background but no (apparent) moral code or a moral code that is opposite of ours, etc.

Not to mention societies that existed prior to Abrahamic religions.

I am not aware of any society which has no religions. Even the primitive tribes which are still found every now and then seem to have some sort of religious belief. Are there any atheist cultures? I am really not aware of any. Do atheists who live in countries with religious backgrounds other than Christianity have morals which are different from their culture? I am not trying to say atheists can't have separate morals as much as I'm saying that their morals are, just like believers, affected by the morals of their culture/society, so it should not be surprising that an atheist's morals are very similar to a Christian's morals if they are part of the same culture/society.

[Cadetak]

What about before the first religion? There had to be morals before there was a religion and there had to be morals before there was a society/government because religions, societies, and governments are based off of morals.

Religion just adds mythologies to reinforce those morals.

Morals are a survivable trait in all animals because if every animal went around killing and stealing it would lead to the destruction of the species. It may be written into our DNA to have those basic morals, so we can survive. More advanced human morals will differ greatly from person to person and those morals are defeloped from their religion or society...but the basic morals of nature where there before religion and government.

[Kalevipoeg]

Unlike christians I have obtained something called common sense and I also have a thing which people refer to as conscience. People not believing I have morals or not understanding why I have them because I do not read the bible are in my eyes just pathethic and simply plain stupid. Do YOU really need to be told it is not right to kill or harm someone for no reason? Do you believe that you would grow up being an unethical person with no morals if you do not read the bible? In an atheist society people figure these things out themselves and children are taught by their parents. Unlike american parents who think that if they send their kids to church once in a while they will grow up perfect... With these kind of topics I always get a picture of a christian child asking his mother if it is ok to kill the neighbour kid Timmy for the superman toy and the mother replying "I'll look it up in the bible for you in a second honey!"

Religion didn't create morals. People had morals before. Heck, there are even laws found several hundred years BC. Christians just slapped em up into 10 simple commands and took all the glory. And yes, every culture had religion of some sort. Doesn't mean that if they played the drums, ran in circles and made funny noices they actualy created an organised religion which taught them morals. Also doesn't mean they were just killing eachother for fun before that happened...

Religion didn't create morals, it just used them. And before we all start praysing religion for "spreading" morals why don't we read what most religions, including christianity, think about stoning people to death and torturing them and for once realise that religion doesn't know sh** about what is wrong or right...

[Cadetak]

Unlike christians I have obtained something called common sense and I also have a thing which people refer to as conscience. People not believing I have morals or not understanding why I have them because I do not read the bible are in my eyes just pathethic and simply plain stupid. Do YOU really need to be told it is not right to kill or harm someone for no reason? Do you believe that you would grow up being an unethical person with no morals if you do not read the bible? In an atheist society people figure these things out themselves and children are taught by their parents. Unlike american parents who think that if they send their kids to church once in a while they will grow up perfect... With these kind of topics I always get a picture of a christian child asking his mother if it is ok to kill the neighbour kid Timmy for the superman toy and the mother replying "I'll look it up in the bible for you in a second honey!"

Religion didn't create morals. People had morals before. Heck, there are even laws found several hundred years BC. Christians just slapped em up into 10 simple commands and took all the glory. And yes, every culture had religion of some sort. Doesn't mean that if they played the drums, ran in circles and made funny noices they actualy created an organised religion which taught them morals. Also doesn't mean they were just killing eachother for fun before that happened...

Religion didn't create morals, it just used them. And before we all start praysing religion for "spreading" morals why don't we read what most religions, including christianity, think about stoning people to death and torturing them and for once realise that religion doesn't know sh** about what is wrong or right...

You almost said exactly the same thing I said at almost exactly the same time! Are you my twin? Did you read my mind? Do you have a camera in my house?

Edited December 10, 2006 by Cadetak47

[Invader Skoodge]

Something to think about:

If you were taught that God bless you if you die in the act of murdering his enemies, would you?

If society would highly appeciate it if you were a murderer of jewes, handicapped persons and other unwanted people, would you?

If moral is a matter of either faith or intelligence, then that's what it comes down to.

You've all got some good theories about why people behave as they do. But what you're talking about are standards. I think ethics must be something more than this.

I don't see, why it should make a difference if you're a religious person or not.

Why would anybody have morals? And does anybody have morals?

[when.i.am.queen.]

I am not certain if anybody has brought this up, i kind of skim read a couple of pages.

I was thinking about your question Invader, about why anybody would have morals. And also, earlier in the thread, about morals being coded into our genes.

Perhaps we have our morals to help us survive as a WHOLE.

If we were to kill off all people other than your clan/tribe/appartment block, you would be left with a severely limited gene pool. Not only does that cut down your chances of survival (ie because there is generally saftey in numbers), if you do manage to survive and reproduce, there is a fair bet that you would have some pretty....interesting looking children (ie inbreds). Whose chances of survival also would not be exactly soaring.

The same goes for stealing, lying and cheating. All of these have the possibility to lower fellow mans possibility to survive.

I dont think that morals are just for the greater good - in reality they are really just there to protect yourself and your family - isn't that what we are all trying to do?

[DaKong]

Why does every debate like this have to spiral down into a "Christians are uneducated idiots" debate? That's why I stayed clear of UM for a few months... I hoped people would grow some respect for my beliefs instead of prejudicing me and insulting me every 3 posts. I have feelings too, Kalev. I have a brain too, Kalev. If you had the common sense you said you did, Kalev, then you wouldn't be so insulting towards me and so cruel. Many of the skeptics may say religionists have to grow up and open their eyes to the world, but you need to be respectful towards me and stop with your cruelty and arrogance! I beg of you! I'm close to frickin' tears! Do you know what those are? They're what people with feelings have! They're what people who feel pain have! They're- They're what people with morals have!

I'm going to go cry now. I hope you're satisfied.

[+Link of Hyrule]

If ethics come from religion, then what happened before religion? If ethics are a result of religion, where did religion get the views from? Does anyone really expect an empirically viable answer to a question that goes back thousands, possibly millions of years......

Edited December 11, 2006 by Paranoid Android

[ivytheplant]

I am not aware of any society which has no religions. Even the primitive tribes which are still found every now and then seem to have some sort of religious belief. Are there any atheist cultures? I am really not aware of any. Do atheists who live in countries with religious backgrounds other than Christianity have morals which are different from their culture? I am not trying to say atheists can't have separate morals as much as I'm saying that their morals are, just like believers, affected by the morals of their culture/society, so it should not be surprising that an atheist's morals are very similar to a Christian's morals if they are part of the same culture/society.

I didn't say an atheist culture. What I said was "atheists who were raised by atheists who were raised by atheists, paleolithic tribes living today which have had limited to no contact until recently, cultures that have a strong religious background but no (apparent) moral code or a moral code that is opposite of ours, etc." I'm talking about all societies that we've had on the planet. Societies where cannibalism is an acceptable tradition born out of a religious tradition. Societies where killing all the men and children and stealing the women is a daily practice born out of their religion. Societies where people are selected to be sacrifices to a deity. If these "good morals" that atheists have are a product of culture, then an atheist growing up in that society will have no problem helping to choose the sacrifice, eating the flesh of enemies, or murdering another village in the name of whatever and what that atheist passes on to its children is the idea of eating the flesh of enemies, etc.

By "atheists who were raised by atheists who were raised by atheists" I'm talking about a person who was raised atheist by one or more of their parents who were raised atheist by one or more of their parents. The grandparents could have been raised worshipping a ceiling fan for all I care, but at some point, they made a conscious decision to live a different life and passed those ideals down to their children who passed them down to theirs. And no matter what society they're living in, they've rejected the religious norm of whatever is going on in favor of their own value system.

Besides, theism isn't exactly a precursor towards morality. Much suffering has be caused in the name of theism and to expect that all "good" morals arose from theism is to ignore human history.

[DaKong]

*sigh* Yes, much suffering has been caused in the name of theism, but you're letting a group of bad times and events get in the way of everyone else. To me, morals and religion probably stemmed from the same source: People living together in early times and adapting a social contract given to them from a deity or established by mutual agreement... You know?

[IamsSon]

What about before the first religion? There had to be morals before there was a religion and there had to be morals before there was a society/government because religions, societies, and governments are based off of morals.

Religion just adds mythologies to reinforce those morals.

Morals are a survivable trait in all animals because if every animal went around killing and stealing it would lead to the destruction of the species. It may be written into our DNA to have those basic morals, so we can survive. More advanced human morals will differ greatly from person to person and those morals are defeloped from their religion or society...but the basic morals of nature where there before religion and government.

I think I am sill being misunderstood. I am not saying that morals originally come from religion, all I am saying is that in today's world, the morals of atheists are very similar to those of believers because they basically reflect the morals of the society/culture they live in which reflect the morals espoused by the religion of that culture/society.

[ivytheplant]

*sigh* Yes, much suffering has been caused in the name of theism, but you're letting a group of bad times and events get in the way of everyone else. To me, morals and religion probably stemmed from the same source: People living together in early times and adapting a social contract given to them from a deity or established by mutual agreement... You know?

Yes, and theists will be more than happy to point out that Hitler was supposedly an atheist blah blah blah. Then someone will point out that we shouldn't let a group of bad times and events get in the way of everyone else.

Thanks for bothering to pick out one little point of an afterthought I made and responding to it as if I'm just another whiny atheist trying to blame my troubles on religion.

I'm not an atheist. I'm also a big fan of religion. But ignoring what has been done in the name of religion is just stupid and considering this is a discussion involving whether or not morals are a product of religion and therefore even a community that goes to live by themselves as atheists will just be emulating religion, I think it was a point that had to be made.

But go ahead and sigh all you want.

[ivytheplant]

I think I am sill being misunderstood. I am not saying that morals originally come from religion, all I am saying is that in today's world, the morals of atheists are very similar to those of believers because they basically reflect the morals of the society/culture they live in which reflect the morals espoused by the religion of that culture/society.

I say we test it. Let's put a family of Western atheists in a headhunter society and a family of atheist headhunters in Western society and see what happens in a couple generations.

[DaKong]

Yes, and theists will be more than happy to point out that Hitler was supposedly an atheist blah blah blah. Then someone will point out that we shouldn't let a group of bad times and events get in the way of everyone else.

Thanks for bothering to pick out one little point of an afterthought I made and responding to it as if I'm just another whiny atheist trying to blame my troubles on religion.

I'm not an atheist. I'm also a big fan of religion. But ignoring what has been done in the name of religion is just stupid and considering this is a discussion involving whether or not morals are a product of religion and therefore even a community that goes to live by themselves as atheists will just be emulating religion, I think it was a point that had to be made.

But go ahead and sigh all you want.

Whoa, I didn't mean to come across that way at all. I guess we're all a little jumpy Oh, God knows I'm not ignoring it. I know that there are a lot of things bad that have been done to religion. I guess I misstated in my post: Bad things have been done, but don't forget the good people. I'm not ignoring it at all. I'm not trying to emulate religion at all. I'm saying no, they are not. Religion helps push them along. Please don't get that bad impression of me.

[IamsSon]

I say we test it. Let's put a family of Western atheists in a headhunter society and a family of atheist headhunters in Western society and see what happens in a couple generations.

I'm not sure we''l get to see many generations of the Western atheists, but if you can find a family who will volunteer, it should be interesting.

[Cadetak]

Some sort of basic morals has to be written into are genetic code. Animals have similar basic morals that humans do. Without basic morals nature would be chaotic.

[IamsSon]

Some sort of basic morals has to be written into are genetic code. Animals have similar basic morals that humans do. Without basic morals nature would be chaotic.

I think you are confusing instinct with morals. Instinct requires no thought, just reaction. Morals are thought out.

[Kalevipoeg]

Why does every debate like this have to spiral down into a "Christians are uneducated idiots" debate? That's why I stayed clear of UM for a few months... I hoped people would grow some respect for my beliefs instead of prejudicing me and insulting me every 3 posts. I have feelings too, Kalev. I have a brain too, Kalev. If you had the common sense you said you did, Kalev, then you wouldn't be so insulting towards me and so cruel. Many of the skeptics may say religionists have to grow up and open their eyes to the world, but you need to be respectful towards me and stop with your cruelty and arrogance! I beg of you! I'm close to frickin' tears! Do you know what those are? They're what people with feelings have! They're what people who feel pain have! They're- They're what people with morals have!

I'm going to go cry now. I hope you're satisfied.

First of all hoping that people will grow up in 3 months is... Yes, I don't want to make you cry again...

Secondly, the majority of christians ARE uneducated idiots. (Majority means most, not all)

Now about me hurting your feelings. Most of the times when people are hurt by the words of other people it means that there was truth in the words. People don't tend to be hurt by some fool's mindless rants. For example I'm not hurt when a christian calls me a pagan and tells me I'm going to hell. And NO, I do not have to be respectful to all religions, including christianity, if the majority of the religion is unrespectful to other religions, lifestyles and everything else that is different. And respect doesn't mean that I am not allowed to say anything negative about christians if it is true. And I believe what I said to be true. If that hurt your feelings then it does not concern me. Either prove me wrong if you think I was wrong or accept that I was right and don't blame me for insulting you. Truth does often hurt...

I have a feeling you might want to make an "I'm not a regular intolerant uneducated christian" post so I will tell you ahead that then you shouldn't be hurt at all because my post was not about people like you then.