Crete was not Atlantis

[Atlantis Rises]

never has someone typed to much that has meant so little.

This thread is getting a bit silly. There is no evidence for Atanltis existing. None. Yes, there may be evidence for ancient off-shore civilisations, but thats not what we're talking about. We're asked whether Atlantis existed or not. Surely the idea that Atlantis was a metaphor for the whole meditteranian area, and the story itself just a cautionary tale of godless excess? Just because its written in a book, doesnt make it fact.

Quite right, but it has been proven that there is a hidden truth in every written piece of literature. Just because the message isn't clear cut doesn't mean there isn't one. However, people can also make up facts and ideas to give birth to legend. The question of the existence of Atlantis isn't whether it existed, but why it exists at all. Why did Plato write such an indepth story and then fail to finish it? "And Zeus spoke thus:" These are the famous last words to the Atlantis story. Plato could have just as easily written a story half its length to get his point across, why go into such detail about the island if there wasn't a ion of truth to what he was writing down? This is the question we should be discussing.

[Harte]

Why did Plato write such an indepth story and then fail to finish it? "And Zeus spoke thus:" These are the famous last words to the Atlantis story. Plato could have just as easily written a story half its length to get his point across, why go into such detail about the island if there wasn't a ion of truth to what he was writing down? This is the question we should be discussing.

Tower,

The story you're talking about is even longer that you know, I bet.

The Timaeus and The Critias are continuations of the same discussion taking place in The Republic. The same group of people are talking to each other. The story of Atlantis, as told by Critias, is Critias' example of a story that is similar to the one told by Socrates the previous day in The Republic. This is spelled out pretty clearly in The Timaeus, where Critias says (to Socrates):

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. Let us divide the subject among us, and all endeavour according to our ability gracefully to execute the task which you have imposed upon us. Consider then, Socrates, if this narrative is suited to the purpose, or whether we should seek for some other instead.

This may somewhat answer some of your questions. Critias' story of Atlantis was a fleshing-out of Socrate's story of the hypothetical Republic. In both fictional societies, Plato was criticizing the Athens of his day, which to his mind (and to the minds of today's scholars) had lost quite a bit of it's glory, not to mention freedoms and democratic principles. Please remember that the main character in this portion of Plato's dialogues is Socrates, friend, teacher and mentor to Plato, who had been put to death for what Plato saw as merely exercising his capacity for logical thought and exhorting others (his students) to do likewise. IOW, Plato really had a grudge against the Athens of his day, but he didn't want to end up drinking hemlock over it like Socrates did. Hence he couched his criticisms in hypotheticals.

Atlantis' war with Athens was a way for Plato to glorify the Athens "of old" (which didn't actually exist that far back, but Plato didn't know this) while criticizing the Athens of his day by comparison.

Not all that complicated, really.

Lastly, the "famous last words to the Atlantis story," which are to be found at the end of The Critias, are:

Such was the vast power which the god settled in the lost island of Atlantis; and this he afterwards directed against our land for the following reasons, as tradition tells: For many generations, as long as the divine nature lasted in them, they were obedient to the laws, and well-affectioned towards the god, whose seed they were; for they possessed true and in every way great spirits, uniting gentleness with wisdom in the various chances of life, and in their intercourse with one another. They despised everything but virtue, caring little for their present state of life, and thinking lightly of the possession of gold and other property, which seemed only a burden to them; neither were they intoxicated by luxury; nor did wealth deprive them of their self-control; but they were sober, and saw clearly that all these goods are increased by virtue and friendship with one another, whereas by too great regard and respect for them, they are lost and friendship with them. By such reflections and by the continuance in them of a divine nature, the qualities which we have described grew and increased among them; but when the divine portion began to fade away, and became diluted too often and too much with the mortal admixture, and the human nature got the upper hand, they then, being unable to bear their fortune, behaved unseemly, and to him who had an eye to see grew visibly debased, for they were losing the fairest of their precious gifts; but to those who had no eye to see the true happiness, they appeared glorious and blessed at the very time when they were full of avarice and unrighteous power. Zeus, the god of gods, who rules according to law, and is able to see into such things, perceiving that an honourable race was in a woeful plight, and wanting to inflict punishment on them, that they might be chastened and improve, collected all the gods into their most holy habitation, which, being placed in the centre of the world, beholds all created things. And when he had called them together, he spake as follows-

Plato, as far as we know, didn't end the story here. It's assumed, that is, that a complete version of the Critias has just never been found.

Among the scholars that speculate that Plato actually did end The Critias here, it is thought that Plato realized that what he was writing was looking more and more like the story of the Trojan War. These scholars speculate that Plato dropped the dialogue at this point to avoid plagiarizing the well-known story and never picked it up again to make the necessary changes to avoid doing so.

Harte

[M.A.D CapeBretoner]

what if the trojan wars was what was left and in its trun had to fall and surcome to the darkness of forgetfullness.

[Bosanchero]

what if the trojan wars was what was left and in its trun had to fall and surcome to the darkness of forgetfullness.

i am seriously curious if ANYONE knows what he said here.. i really want to write a reply but dont know what i am replying to ...

and here i tought i was ESL...

[Mr Supertypo]

what if the trojan wars was what was left and in its trun had to fall and surcome to the darkness of forgetfullness.

are you using a online translator? maybe like the one in google or perhaps babelfish just to name some....

[Mr Supertypo]

Plato discussed that the island of Atlantis was beyond the Pillars of Hercules. He meant the Atlantic Ocean, not the Mediterranean. Greek story tellers often recite their stories outside the normal boundaries of the known world. Underwater archeaological evidence have found mysterious isolated ruins in and around the Azores (in the Atlantic) that give credit to the story. Granted, this information is old, but it's still being investigated. However, all evidence even to this day about Atlantis, is still speculation and controversial.

the ancient early greeks belived the pillar of Hercules was between Sicily and Tunesia...they didnt know about Spain during Plato.

Later perhaps they moved the pillars to the location they are to day....but not at that time...

[M.A.D CapeBretoner]

never has someone typed to much that has meant so little.

This thread is getting a bit silly. There is no evidence for Atanltis existing. None. Yes, there may be evidence for ancient off-shore civilisations, but thats not what we're talking about. We're asked whether Atlantis existed or not. Surely the idea that Atlantis was a metaphor for the whole meditteranian area, and the story itself just a cautionary tale of godless excess? Just because its written in a book, doesnt make it fact.

never has somtheone that so little typed meant to much.

[aquatus1]

If everyone is done with the snarky comments, we can return to the topic of the possible location (physical location) of Atlantis.

[Bosanchero]

If everyone is done with the snarky comments, we can return to the topic of the possible location (physical location) of Atlantis.

we are sorry aqua we trully are making ur job rather hard and once again my apologies it just kinda hard to talk about something to a room full of people with one guy that keeps jumping up in chaildish manner and screaming nonsence every few minutes...

as for atlantis location its in the "history" even if it ever did exist and indeed did go under water belive it or not with the years that have passed not much could be found anyways and if in fact someone did find atlantis along the line they would never know what they have discovered due to the fact that "WE have no refrence to it other than "the myth" " so once again its a lost cause

[Pax Unum]

If everyone is done with the snarky comments, we can return to the topic of the possible location (physical location) of Atlantis.

WAS Atlantis even a real place? IMO Atlantis has no more evidence of reality than Gondor and Minas Tirith... I think the Atlantean culture was based on Thera/Crete, and the destruction was likely based on Helike, that sank about thirteen years before Plato wrote the story, so it was a believable event still fresh in peoples minds. where was Atlantis located? in Plato's mind...

Edited January 30, 2007 by Pax Unum

[rezna]

i dont think there's enough evidense to say that. there is not enough evidence to say that it DID exist or that it DIDNT exist. There just isn't enough. But the reason we talk about it is from the HUGE amount of cultures that refer to a culture like Atlantis. It is very probable that a much earlier culture than Sumer or Egypt existed. That could be what Atlantis was. And maybe that's what Plato is talking about, this very early culture that started taking things for granted and got punished for it. A metaphor for learning from our past. He supposedly got the story from Egypt. If that's true, why would it be about Crete, and again, he describes Crete for what it is. He does not EVER refer to Atlantis and Crete as one and the same. He definitively points out where Crete is and who inhabited it. He would have said something about the Atlantians if they had been on crete or anywhere around crete.

[Pax Unum]

i dont think there's enough evidense to say that. there is not enough evidence to say that it DID exist or that it DIDNT exist.

Is there 'any' evidence for Atlantis besides Plato's story? I'm not aware of any, except "psychic channeled information" that I think is BS... just wondering

[Four Winds]

Is there 'any' evidence for Atlantis besides Plato's story? I'm not aware of any, except "psychic channeled information" that I think is BS... just wondering

None that I have ever heard of.

[M.A.D CapeBretoner]

Is there 'any' evidence for Atlantis besides Plato's story? I'm not aware of any, except "psychic channeled information" that I think is BS... just wondering

there's mine since i've been told on here this site that i'm the only one that thinks cape breton island is the capital island of atlantis even though she is

located in the heart of the ATLANTIC provs which is in the ATLANTIC ocean which thoughs people of the atlantic were named its only right to say that

plato gave them this name what else would you call those people of the atlantic were they lived.

you would name them after from were they came,and since the ocean was there domane they were rightfully named.

but thats just me and you pax think i'm b.s or full of it ,even though i showed you the make up of cape breton that shows its link to as in heaven as on

earth

by all the terrians on this island in one place makes it heaven because out there on earth there spread to the four corners,like those rivers genessis each

in there time did they come and prosper but were are we now after christ as come and gone were acended to heaven and sits you know the right hand

side but he crossed that great abiss first which the mid-atlantic ridge is a good candatite tobe since it lies at the bottum of that great water abiss .

if you can then you would know and understand but if you could get to know how to walk in the spirit and see the whole truth then there would be no need to argu now would there,you would understand and see.

[Pax Unum]

To whom it may concern: The Atlantic Ocean's name was derived from Greek mythology, it means the "Sea of Atlas." Atlas was one of the primordial Titans...

LINK-> Atlantic Ocean

LINK-> Atlas (mythology)

Edited January 30, 2007 by Pax Unum

[M.A.D CapeBretoner]

To whom it may concern: The Atlantic Ocean's name was derived from Greek mythology, it means the "Sea of Atlas." Atlas was one of the primordial Titans...

LINK-> Atlantic Ocean

LINK-> Atlas (mythology)

owe i forgot we have nothing to say but greek mytholigy has when were looking for atlantis.

[M.A.D CapeBretoner]

pax your in the right direction anyway.

[louie]

i hope Crete was, it looks like im gonna be there for a few months in the summer, i have the days free to do some exploring, but even not it has some beautiful history to check out..

Edited February 1, 2007 by louie

[Harte]

owe i forgot we have nothing to say but greek mytholigy has when were looking for atlantis.

Atlantis does not appear at all in any Greek myth.

Harte

[rezna]

Atlantis does not appear at all in any Greek myth.

Harte

Other than Plato's Timaeus and Critias there is no primary ancient account of Atlantis, which means every other account on Atlantis relies on Plato in one way or another. To this day, no proof for a non-Platonic tradition of Atlantis has been found. However, the Greek logographer Hellanicus of Lesbos wrote a work (now lost), named Atlantis (or Atlantias), about the daughters of the titan Atlas (not the Atlas mentioned by Plato).[1] However, it is unlikely that this work was an inspiration to Plato, since he named Atlantis after the Atlantic Ocean (ancient Greek: Ἀτλαντὶς θάλασσα, "Sea of Atlas"), which already had this name in the time of Herodotus.[2]

Now why would he name Atlantis after the Atlantic Ocean if he didn't mean to imply that it was there? Not in the medditeranean?

Man Im starting to hate Atlantis from these threads on this board. You skeptics make me feel like an idiot for caring about anything that isn't proven. I have to find all kinds of proof for you, and if there isn't any, there's basically no point in talking about anything. Thanks. I will now keep these things to myself.

[aquatus1]

Man Im starting to hate Atlantis from these threads on this board. You skeptics make me feel like an idiot for caring about anything that isn't proven. I have to find all kinds of proof for you, and if there isn't any, there's basically no point in talking about anything. Thanks. I will now keep these things to myself.

Actually, no, you dont. The only time you have to prove something is when you make a claim about it. If you are simply sharing your belief, your opinions, if you accept that there is little to nothing to support it and simply bite that bullet because you truly, honestly, enjoy just thinking about the topic, then there is isn't going to be anyone who is going to be demanding proof from you. Believe it or not, skeptics enjoy a good dream as well as anyone, and if this subject really brings you so much happiness, by all means share it with us.

[Harte]

Although I count myself as one of these skeptics you decry, I still hold out hope that an ancient, previously unknown, civilization will one day be uncovered.

But I don't allow myself to believe at all that Plato's allegorical subplot to his Dialogues was in any way based on this previous civilization. IOW, I firmly believe that modern Man knows far more about the history of the human race than Plato did.

Harte

[rezna]

I firmly believe that modern Man knows far more about the history of the human race than Plato did.

Technically, this is true. I believe we only know around 20% of history. Maybe even less than that. I don't like how anthropologists and historians believe they know everything. I wish they were more humble about the past and that they would concede to not knowing everything yet. Our records have so many holes in them. We cannot say that we know exactly how everything went. I especially don't like it when they label something as "the first [blank]". How do they know it's the first or anything? Anyways, you've made me feel better about my interests and that I don't need to feel any pressure about whatever the truth is, or proving anything that I claim. All the ideas I have that I write on this board are simply ideas, thoughts, conjecture, none of it my attempt at the actual truth. I just like to put my ideas out there and see if any agrees that it could be a possibility.

"My mother gave me a bumblebee pin when I started work. She said: "Aerodynamically, bees shouldn't be able to fly. But they do. Remember that." -Jill E. Barad

[Sym]

There is very little doubt, archeologically speaking, that the *basis* for Atlantis is the great civilization that included Crete and its entire surroundings--a much larger portion of the Mediterranean sea. The people we have come to know as the Minoans.

What they have found in digs over the last few years is absolutely amazing. Three story city buildings constructed more than 3,500 years ago, indoor plumbing (including indoor toilets with "flushing" water), and other technologies centuries in advance of anything else known from that period. A civilization like this, in that time period, rivals the magnitude of Rome, Egypt, and Babylon and Ur at their respective heights. For it to disappear in a major natural event would have left shockwaves in ancient verbal history around the whole civilized world of the middle-east for thousands of years.

And it did, in the form of the legend of the Kefche, as told by the Egyptians.

The evidence is becoming too remarkable to discount it as a basis for Atlantis. Had Plato had known anything about this lost civilization, he would have written about it.

By the time Plato wrote about his Atlantis, this was a civilization long gone, with no trace of them except what had been passed down verbally. Like all verbal legends, accuracy is lost in favor of myth. Everything he said isn't going to be 100% accurate, that would not be possible.

The supervolcano of Santorini is evidence that this incredibly advanced civilization was wiped out "in a single day and night" just as Plato wrote. It happened around 1500 BCE. We're talking about an eruption that occurred right in the middle of their civilization, about ten times as powerful as the Krakatoa eruption in 1883. What happened to Pompei near Vesuvius is nothing compared to this. In addition to mega-earthquakes and volcanic explosions, massive tsunamis swallowed entire palaces and towns.

Plato's tale is based on the Egyptian account of the Kefche.

Edited October 27, 2008 by Sym