AROCES Posted December 9, 2006 #1 Share Posted December 9, 2006 European Socialist gathering European Socialist very optimistic with the Democrats win. As Campaigned by the Democrats we need to be liked by the world, they just didn't make it clear who they really mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinash_Tyagi Posted December 9, 2006 #2 Share Posted December 9, 2006 So what's your point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AROCES Posted December 9, 2006 Author #3 Share Posted December 9, 2006 So what's your point? If it's too deep for you, don't worry about it then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecreeper Posted December 9, 2006 #4 Share Posted December 9, 2006 If it's too deep for you, don't worry about it then. don't insult the person, no one understands what Europe getting happy about our elections means Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinash_Tyagi Posted December 9, 2006 #5 Share Posted December 9, 2006 If it's too deep for you, don't worry about it then. No you just didn't make any point, so what if Europeans are happy, so are many Americans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecreeper Posted December 9, 2006 #6 Share Posted December 9, 2006 why does Europe even care who we choose for congress, you don't see us making a big deal about there parilmentry(sp?) elections Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AROCES Posted December 9, 2006 Author #7 Share Posted December 9, 2006 don't insult the person, no one understands what Europe getting happy about our elections means I guess you don't get it either, don't worry about it then yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
explorer Posted December 9, 2006 #8 Share Posted December 9, 2006 Who except governments of satellite Western nations with little international sway, along with right wing stalwarts, were ever going to be happy about the brazen foreign policy miscalculations of the Bush Administration? Of course, Europe has it's own self interest to serve, but they'll be thinking, with Rumsfeld and Bolton gone, and Bush booked in to be neutered, there's a better chance to dovetail interests instead of witnessing a 'with us or against us' brick wall approach...which is rapidly toppling itself, pulling everyone into a nightmare. Unless the Democrats get stuck in the deep wedge the Republicans started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baku Posted December 9, 2006 #9 Share Posted December 9, 2006 Democracy in the US should not depend on European happiness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
explorer Posted December 9, 2006 #10 Share Posted December 9, 2006 It did not that long ago. But last century dictatorship in the US was born of European sadness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AROCES Posted December 10, 2006 Author #11 Share Posted December 10, 2006 It did not that long ago. But last century dictatorship in the US was born of European sadness. Dictatorship? I guess when Gore and Kerry lost the Election, to the liberals that is a dictatorship. Correction, Socialist European sadness, but they are not sad anymore for the Democrats have won. Socialistic future looks bright now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecreeper Posted December 10, 2006 #12 Share Posted December 10, 2006 It did not that long ago. But last century dictatorship in the US was born of European sadness. really? we lived in a dictatorship, cause I never saw any signs of it, I mean we have free elections and free speech, how silly of me to think that I lived in a republic. listen do not judge what you do not understand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clocker Posted December 11, 2006 #13 Share Posted December 11, 2006 AROCES, could be please be a bit more specific about the whole point of this? Seeing as your post really hasn't stirred up any conversation, not a lot of people probably see your point? I would guess this has something to do with socialism and how bad it is. Am I right? Now that the democrats are in power, America will of course go all socialist which on top of it equals communism to some people for a reason unknown to me. Really, tell me, is everything so black and white? It's either capitalism or communism? Personally, I believe a combination of the two would be closest to an ideal system and there's plenty of evidence that it works fine. And finally, about why anyone should care what goes on in America? Well, for one, America is the richest, most powerful nation in the world with strong foreign interests. It does cause worry in a lot of countries if the USA adopts a 'with us or against us' policy, which has been going on with the Bush Administration. When America could be the 'leader of the free world' it decides to wage a pointless war in Iraq. That is why many European governments have been so worried, with all the right wing policies, and are now relieved with the democrats in charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AROCES Posted December 11, 2006 Author #14 Share Posted December 11, 2006 (edited) AROCES, could be please be a bit more specific about the whole point of this? Seeing as your post really hasn't stirred up any conversation, not a lot of people probably see your point? I would guess this has something to do with socialism and how bad it is. Am I right? Now that the democrats are in power, America will of course go all socialist which on top of it equals communism to some people for a reason unknown to me. Really, tell me, is everything so black and white? It's either capitalism or communism? Personally, I believe a combination of the two would be closest to an ideal system and there's plenty of evidence that it works fine. And finally, about why anyone should care what goes on in America? Well, for one, America is the richest, most powerful nation in the world with strong foreign interests. It does cause worry in a lot of countries if the USA adopts a 'with us or against us' policy, which has been going on with the Bush Administration. When America could be the 'leader of the free world' it decides to wage a pointless war in Iraq. That is why many European governments have been so worried, with all the right wing policies, and are now relieved with the democrats in charge. Depends on how you see it. There is not much to say and not much to be pointed out for it is pretty clear and can't be denied. It is just something I I wanted to share with everyone here. Capitalism is not communism. But Socialism is structured like communism although it is not entirely. But the big similarity is the government gets control of the life of it's People for they become very dependent on it, and eventually become parasites. When you say many Europeans, you mean the Liberal and Socialist Europeans. I guess there is a point to all this after all... Edited December 11, 2006 by AROCES Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bella-Angelique Posted December 11, 2006 #15 Share Posted December 11, 2006 It was not that long ago that the dominant economic belief of the west was that the only way that the masses of workers would work hard for their pay was if their pay was low and they lived in endless fear of starvation. We now know that it was what they wanted to believe to justify greed and indifference. We have been told that socialism is a failure, but we have never been shown a system yet where the actual systems were not corrupt or mishandled. Perhaps as tech provides us more and more power of observation and follow up on even the smallest actions and details, this is a possibility that needs to be explored more by everyone. We simply cannot go on as we have in the past with finite resources of metal. Tax payers cannot be expected to quietly pay for the long range space mining we will need for more metals only for the sole profit of private corporations. Privacy is gone already if for no other reason than cellphones put out videos on all that goes on in all places. We might as well work with what we have and stop trying to turn the clock back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AROCES Posted December 11, 2006 Author #16 Share Posted December 11, 2006 It was not that long ago that the dominant economic belief of the west was that the only way that the masses of workers would work hard for their pay was if their pay was low and they lived in endless fear of starvation. We now know that it was what they wanted to believe to justify greed and indifference. We have been told that socialism is a failure, but we have never been shown a system yet where the actual systems were not corrupt or mishandled. Perhaps as tech provides us more and more power of observation and follow up on even the smallest actions and details, this is a possibility that needs to be explored more by everyone. We simply cannot go on as we have in the past with finite resources of metal. Tax payers cannot be expected to quietly pay for the long range space mining we will need for more metals only for the sole profit of private corporations. Privacy is gone already if for no other reason than cellphones put out videos on all that goes on in all places. We might as well work with what we have and stop trying to turn the clock back. - No, the belief was if you free people to achieve their desired standard of living then prosperity will come along with it. There will always be those who will be paid the lowest, we can't all make millions. The governments role is to assure everyone a decent and peaceful society regardless of your economic condition. Not to assure everyone gets paid to their desired wages. - Anybody still remember what USSR means? Union of Soviet Socialist Republic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clocker Posted December 12, 2006 #17 Share Posted December 12, 2006 Depends on how you see it. There is not much to say and not much to be pointed out for it is pretty clear and can't be denied. It is just something I I wanted to share with everyone here. Capitalism is not communism. But Socialism is structured like communism although it is not entirely. But the big similarity is the government gets control of the life of it's People for they become very dependent on it, and eventually become parasites. When you say many Europeans, you mean the Liberal and Socialist Europeans. I guess there is a point to all this after all... Alright, fair enough. And granted, socialism is structured like communism which is why I would not want a socialist state. However, most European socialist governments are defined as "centre-left" which means it's not pure socialism. I'd like to say I'm leaning mostly towards the center, though here in the States most people say I'm a bit towards the left, and most people in my home country, Finland, say that I'm leaning towards the right. So go figure My point is, I think we'd get the best result by combining socialism and capitalism, as some European countries do, and as has been done here in the US in the past as well. As to people becoming parasites, I admit that is possible, and partially dependent on the culture. However, like I've said if you do not take strict socialism but blend capitalism with some socialism the parasite problem is not that serious anymore. I take a few parasites over homeless people any day, at least everyone gets a decent standard of living Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AROCES Posted December 12, 2006 Author #18 Share Posted December 12, 2006 though here in the States most people say I'm a bit towards the left, and most people in my home country, Finland, say that I'm leaning towards the right. So go figure My point is, I think we'd get the best result by combining socialism and capitalism, as some European countries do, and as has been done here in the US in the past as well. As to people becoming parasites, I admit that is possible, and partially dependent on the culture. However, like I've said if you do not take strict socialism but blend capitalism with some socialism the parasite problem is not that serious anymore. I take a few parasites over homeless people any day, at least everyone gets a decent standard of living - Well, seems like most people in Finland are in the extreme left then. Maybe, a very little tiny bit of Socialism that is strictly geared only for the Handicapped, Senior Citizens and Orphans. The homeless, I'm not sure for most homeless simply wanted to be homeless, I have seen efforts to get them off the streets and they just go back to be homeless. You expand Socialism in a Society, it becomes a breeding ground for parasites, then you have millions of parasites with a few homeless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Umbarger Posted December 12, 2006 #19 Share Posted December 12, 2006 As to people becoming parasites, I admit that is possible, and partially dependent on the culture. Remember the old "Welfare System"? There were generations of people who just lived off the system and never made an effort to get off it. It was much like the old Soviet system of "Cradle to grave". The government should, and does, provide a safty net. It should never be in the business of building a life "long web" that people cannot or wish not, to get out of. Natoins that are still trying to balance socialism and capitolism are not often successful. France, for instance, has one of the highest unemployment rates in all of Europe. Certainly not a role model for any state. None the less, socialists will always cheer when a less conservitive leadership takes hold in the United States. It gives them the feeling that things are swinging their way. It is precisly why I do not celebrate a democratic victory. It is also good to remember that many in Europe view Bush as a Cowboy and concider it a derogatory image. It is one of the heroic personages of the American frontier culture. It would be the same as telling an American that he was a fireman like person or a European that he was as chiverlous as a Knight in shinning armor. Those who use the "Cowboy image" as an insult are woefully ignorant of American history and certainly not fountains of the better qualities that make the Cowboy a hero of American folklore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinash_Tyagi Posted December 12, 2006 #20 Share Posted December 12, 2006 - Well, seems like most people in Finland are in the extreme left then. Maybe, a very little tiny bit of Socialism that is strictly geared only for the Handicapped, Senior Citizens and Orphans. The homeless, I'm not sure for most homeless simply wanted to be homeless, I have seen efforts to get them off the streets and they just go back to be homeless. You expand Socialism in a Society, it becomes a breeding ground for parasites, then you have millions of parasites with a few homeless. Actually that's not entirely true, take a psych class or two, you'll find that a lot of homeless in fact suffer from mental illness (A study done in Baltimore showed rates around 80%). And you wouldn't necessarily expand parasitism, as long as you structured the system correctly, problem is most politicians don't listen to economists when drafting these programs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AROCES Posted December 12, 2006 Author #21 Share Posted December 12, 2006 Actually that's not entirely true, take a psych class or two, you'll find that a lot of homeless in fact suffer from mental illness (A study done in Baltimore showed rates around 80%). And you wouldn't necessarily expand parasitism, as long as you structured the system correctly, problem is most politicians don't listen to economists when drafting these programs - The borderline of when is someone mentally ill is debatable. But regardless, mentally ill or not, when someone wants to live on the street not much you can do unless you force them out and lock them up. Nothing you can do, parasitism will expand. They they do mostly when it time for the fiscal budget. It is no secret that Social Welfare workers are out recruting dependents to justify their budget. Now why would a Politician listen to an economist on this matter??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clocker Posted December 12, 2006 #22 Share Posted December 12, 2006 - Well, seems like most people in Finland are in the extreme left then. Maybe, a very little tiny bit of Socialism that is strictly geared only for the Handicapped, Senior Citizens and Orphans. The homeless, I'm not sure for most homeless simply wanted to be homeless, I have seen efforts to get them off the streets and they just go back to be homeless. You expand Socialism in a Society, it becomes a breeding ground for parasites, then you have millions of parasites with a few homeless. You are partially correct, many people in Finland are in what you would call the extreme left. Socialism should be geared for students as well, meaning education should be free. The importance and impact of free education just can't be stressed enough. There should be healthcare available for everyone as well...though I'm not sure what would happen if all health care was privatized, theoretically that might drive down the prices but in practice, I don't think it would be such a good idea. How bout child care? There are many issues at hand here, and I just don't think pure capitalism can answer all of them. As to those claims about parasites in a socialist-influenced society, well the whole Scandinavia is living proof that it can actually work and does not create millions of parasites. There's plenty of information on Scandinavia in the Internet if you don't believe me. In fact, for example Finland's economic growth for the past century or so has been far greater than that of the USA. Of course there are various reasons for that. However, why I said it might be dependent on culture is that our culture is significantly less materialistic than that of the US. Which might be why we don't have so many parasites as you would predict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AROCES Posted December 12, 2006 Author #23 Share Posted December 12, 2006 (edited) You are partially correct, many people in Finland are in what you would call the extreme left. Socialism should be geared for students as well, meaning education should be free. The importance and impact of free education just can't be stressed enough. There should be healthcare available for everyone as well...though I'm not sure what would happen if all health care was privatized, theoretically that might drive down the prices but in practice, I don't think it would be such a good idea. How bout child care? There are many issues at hand here, and I just don't think pure capitalism can answer all of them. As to those claims about parasites in a socialist-influenced society, well the whole Scandinavia is living proof that it can actually work and does not create millions of parasites. There's plenty of information on Scandinavia in the Internet if you don't believe me. In fact, for example Finland's economic growth for the past century or so has been far greater than that of the USA. Of course there are various reasons for that. However, why I said it might be dependent on culture is that our culture is significantly less materialistic than that of the US. Which might be why we don't have so many parasites as you would predict. - Free education is alright with me. The problem in America is you pretty much don't have a choice, you have to go to a liberal run school and if you want your Child to have a different value, you got no choice but a private school. And we all know the failures of Government run education we have now here. I am in privatization of health care, or maybe a shared cost. I do believe it is the only way the prices will go down, pressure from the consumers. If it is all free then who would care, right? It could be working now in Scandinavia, although I have a relative in the Netherlands who is pretty much fed up with paying 55% in taxes to support all the government programs and is looking to move to Spain and the daughter wants to move here in the USA for the same reason. Edited December 12, 2006 by AROCES Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clocker Posted December 12, 2006 #24 Share Posted December 12, 2006 - Free education is alright with me. The problem in America is you pretty much don't have a choice, you have to go to a liberal run school and if you want your Child to have a different value, you got no choice but a private school. And we all know the failures of Government run education we have now here. I am in privatization of health care, or maybe a shared cost. I do believe it is the only way the prices will go down, pressure from the consumers. If it is all free then who would care, right? It could be working now in Scandinavia, although I have a relative in the Netherlands who is pretty much fed up with paying 55% in taxes to support all the government programs and is looking to move to Spain and the daughter wants to move here in the USA for the same reason. As I said, it is culture dependent; I on the other hand don't mind paying a lot of taxes if it is for the greater good However, I do understand if someone does not want to pay that much tax. Lucky we have different options for different people! About health care...well, that issue is very complex and I don't even know if there's a right answer to that one. I know 100% public health care creates problems, but then again 100% private health care makes it unavailable to some as long as there are people who cannot afford it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Slayer Posted December 12, 2006 #25 Share Posted December 12, 2006 Honestly, and I've said it many times, it's better for us in the Europe if the Republicans win. Democrats are rats that do the exact same types of things as their 'counterparts', only they do it in the shadows. If I have to choose between two evils, I'd much rather see the openly aggressive right-wing hawks of the Bush junta operating than some Democrat devil in a pansy's dress pretending to love world peace and then do what Clinton did in the 90's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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