PSI -vs- SCI

[MadMachine]

Why couldn't it simply be a very simple phenomenon that's just unknown to science yet?

What's funny is that this phenomenon IS known to science already!

Are you sure you read the post you quoted closely enough?

[Jjbreen]

What's the big deal about calling it supernatural, psychic, magic or anything else? Why couldn't it simply be a very simple phenomenon that's just unknown to science yet? Someday it won't be called supernatural anymore, it will be casual at that point.

I just made a site to build stats on PSI abilities and intend to use it as a demonstration. If anyone would care to prove or disprove the existence of will power over random luck, just try it at PSI learner.

Well feel free to post the Psi/Pin Wheel $100.00 Challenge on your site to this link. I continue to doubt anyone will even dare to take the challenge for very obvious reasons - but the challenge is still there. Being strangly IGNORED by the believers - hmm....

I have had two more, now a total of 3 "believers" PM me w/... "Jj - You are right - TK is not real. When I remove the science that does effect this - you are right, it removes the "Psi" powers thought to be there..."

No - I do not have permission to share the names..... (yet) - Though I have encouraged them to come forward. One has admitted he will not - cause they fear retribution from the other believers. Even added that a number of them seem to be p***ed off w/the challenge - because NO ONE can and/or will step forward."

It's easier to talk the talk - then walk the talk.... Oh well....

Edited May 13, 2007 by Jjbreen

[supercharlieb]

Hi i have just joined... so lets start with a bang!

PSI can only exist if the person believe it exists...

SCience is only in its infancy, In the last century we have found so many new things about science, there are bound to be some things that just can't be proven or haven't been proven yet...

Can't you non believers just except that there might be or there is PSI... I practice PSI and i have found quite pleaseant results...

yours with faith

SCB

[Jjbreen]

Hi i have just joined... so lets start with a bang!

PSI can only exist if the person believe it exists...

Well first - Welcome!

Now - talk about totally subjective then!

So if you believe and I don't and you try to show me your 'belief' - my non-belief wins over your belief. (That would show that the facts of science win.

SCience is only in its infancy, In the last century we have found so many new things about science, there are bound to be some things that just can't be proven or haven't been proven yet...

Yes but these so called "Psi" abilities of Spinning a Pin Wheel w/ones thought is easily proven w/science or in this case DIS-Proven.

Can't you non believers just except that there might be or there is PSI... I practice PSI and i have found quite pleaseant results...

yours with faith

SCB

No - for no one has even come close to providing any evidence or proof. Funny that when they try - and take steps to produce their evidence - once they remove the actual science - their powers do not work...

Hey - take my $100.00 challenge - I'd love you too - seems no one else can or will. Wonder why that is....?

Edited May 14, 2007 by Jjbreen

[drakonwick]

I suppose we are going to have to take all of the believers evidence and put it in file 13!

Because, I really don't see any solid proof coming from them any time soon.

Edit: Just remember believers the challenge is always there!

Edited May 14, 2007 by Dragonwick

[Jjbreen]

This $100.00 challenge will be open to any and all takers easily until Dec. 31, 2007.

I'm also talking to a couple of educators in the Science Field on a Psi Ball Challenge as well.

Here in lies the clear cut challenge w/the Pin (Psi) Wheel:

As stated to Matt's attempt -

I will put up $75.00 to anyone that can create an HONEST video using the PIN WHEEL to show Psi (TK):

Not using any Remote Control devices or Hidden Devices:

Illussions

Secondary "Power Sources", ie:

----- Electronic Pumps,

----- Motors,

----- Fans,

----- Heater,

----- Coolers and such.

----- Any IR (Inferred) Control Devices

----- Any Laser or Light technology.

In other words be Accountable to be HONEST.

This test must be done w/the following conditions:

A.

Clear see through table top.

B.

Feather, Tolet paper strips or other super light weight material placed loose on the table inside the bowel w/the Pin Wheel.

C.

Nothing under the bowl except the clear table top. Thus seeing all the way through at all times.

Edited: - Because of the above post w/light - heaters and such. I thought this was listed here and realized I 'mixed' the two posts up:

** The paper pin wheel must be white 100% paper. NO speciality paper.

On person just IM'd me showing me his video w/Tracing Paper. That would be fine.

Rule of thumb -

You must be accountably HONEST. Dis-Honesty intended or not - will void this agreement and seen as an act of fraud.

** Cannot be near any Spot light, heat lamps, heater vents, windows. Must be protected as is possible from these sources.

D.

Your Face and Both hands MUST be visible in the video at all times.

E.

Your hands must be 12 inches or more from the bowl during the TK Demo.

F.

Volume on the video must be ON. So we can hear what is taking place.

There must be NO pause or Edit 'blips' during the demo.

This will be reviewed for this by a local expert that I know and trust. He knows what to look for - he does this for a living for the past 25 years.

G.

You must give at least a 5+ foot FOV (Field Of View) of the Table during the demo.

H.

You must give before the test a 360 degree view of the room where you are before the test.

I.

IF there is anyone else w/you during the video and demo - they MUST be made known.

J.

You must tell us which direction the pin wheel will spin and it MUST spin in that direction. Then Stop it via TK and spin it in the oposite direction.

... Then show the video online to the group ... This is the first phase of the video.

After it has been viewed and validated that you met all the above:

** I will deposit $25.00 in your PayPal or other online Account for gas to do the next part.

You will give me your City & State where you live.

I will contact local High School or Community College to find a Science teacher that will have you come in and video the EXACT demo w/the exact same equipment. They will inspect it and then you are to do the video as you presented above. The teacher at the end will validate that NO Tricks or "side steps" were taken and that indeed this was done by no other explination then "TK".

** If this video then passes you will recieve the remainder of the $75.00 into your PayPal or other online account.

*** BUT - If it is found that you used any kind of tricks or other acts of dishonesty - You will need to pay back the $25.00 and apologize to the group for your act of Fraud.

It has been asked of me in private:

"Jj - do I have to state in public forum that I am taking this challenge?"

The answer is: YES

- I've put the challenge up in public. So anyone taking the challenge have to state so in public as well. This way everyone here knows, "I've been 'called on the challenge'." With everything clearly documented here will be watched, espeically me. Should someone meet ALL the above requirement, then I have to PAY OUT THE MONEY. (Which I have every intention of doing so.)

- But also it gives us a clear accounting of the person doing the challenge. So that we all see: Did they meet the Check List?

Do I expect anyone to take the Challenge?

NO - I honestly do not.

For this simple reason: When one removes the actual science behind it - you remove what you thought was TK. So no one will dare risk proving I and others were right all along - it's just science being passed off as Psi. The "believers" know this only all too well. Thus they cannot step up - for then they too will prove - it's just Science and not Psi.

Ok, I've thought it through and have changed the $50.00 to be awarded AFTER the teacher demo part of the challenge to $75.00. Which means the award has been rounded off to $100.00.

Now it has been questioned as to my acceptance of the video:

I can only say this once.

ANYONE that meets ALL the above conditions, I HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO ACCEPT IT! What part of that do you NOT understand?? It really is JUST THAT SIMPLE... Because other wise I look the fool and Con-artist. I have to much respect for my reputation than to play that kind of stupid game. If you "do it" - hey I will honestly be super impressed and will be HAPPY to pay you the money, if for no other reason - YOU DID IT! YOU PROVED YOUR WORDS W/CLEAR ACTIONS!!

Edited May 14, 2007 by Jjbreen

[Jjbreen]

UPDATE TO PIN WHEEL aka PSI WHEEL CHALLENGE.

The "prize" is now set to $200.00.

Another UM Member has added $100.00 of his own money to the challenge.

He agrees to everything I have noted in the challenge - but adds just this final add-on of his own:

UM Memeber: Arthur Vandolay -aka- Anothony.

Stated the following to me in a PM. I do have his permission to post this w/his name:

As for the science, I dont remember any of that from high school or junior high. But I have real a bad memory involving my younger years as it is (heh as if I'm old) So I thank you for the crash course, you have made me smarter and I owe ya one!

As for your $100.00, Im willing to throw in another! Same rules you stated prior HOWEVER, I am a videographer, so if at all possible I would like a copy of the orriginal (i will pay for shipping etc) So I can check it for edits, and other 'tricks'. If you let me do that, then I throw in 100 dollars to the cause. Make it the $200 challenge, maybe that will wet their whistles.

(feel free to disclose anything you wish about me and this IM, I've been mulling on whether or not to post in the forums, and I could use a push )

Again, thank you for your insights, and know that you did explain it perfectly, at least to me. From post #1 in the Psi/Sci I knew what was going on.

Anthony

So for his part - he will pay for the postage of the ORGINAL VIDEO TAPE. Which is more than fair.

Here is the challenge now set at $200.00.

Here in lies the clear cut challenge w/the Pin (Psi) Wheel:

As stated to Matt's attempt -

I will put up $75.00 to anyone that can create an HONEST video using the PIN WHEEL to show Psi (TK):

Not using any Remote Control devices or Hidden Devices:

Illussions

Secondary "Power Sources", ie:

----- Electronic Pumps,

----- Motors,

----- Fans,

----- Heater,

----- Coolers and such.

----- Any IR (Inferred) Control Devices

----- Any Laser or Light technology.

In other words be Accountable to be HONEST.

This test must be done w/the following conditions:

A.

Clear see through table top.

B.

Feather, Tolet paper strips or other super light weight material placed loose on the table inside the bowel w/the Pin Wheel.

C.

Nothing under the bowl except the clear table top. Thus seeing all the way through at all times.

Edited: - Because of the above post w/light - heaters and such. I thought this was listed here and realized I 'mixed' the two posts up:

** The paper pin wheel must be white 100% paper. NO speciality paper.

On person just IM'd me showing me his video w/Tracing Paper. That would be fine.

Rule of thumb -

You must be accountably HONEST. Dis-Honesty intended or not - will void this agreement and seen as an act of fraud.

** Cannot be near any Spot light, heat lamps, heater vents, windows. Must be protected as is possible from these sources.

D.

Your Face and Both hands MUST be visible in the video at all times.

E.

Your hands must be 12 inches or more from the bowl during the TK Demo.

F.

Volume on the video must be ON. So we can hear what is taking place.

There must be NO pause or Edit 'blips' during the demo.

This will be reviewed for this by a local expert that I know and trust. He knows what to look for - he does this for a living for the past 25 years.

G.

You must give at least a 5+ foot FOV (Field Of View) of the Table during the demo.

H.

You must give before the test a 360 degree view of the room where you are before the test.

I.

IF there is anyone else w/you during the video and demo - they MUST be made known.

J.

You must tell us which direction the pin wheel will spin and it MUST spin in that direction. Then Stop it via TK and spin it in the oposite direction.

... Then show the video online to the group ... This is the first phase of the video.

After it has been viewed and validated that you met all the above:

** I will deposit $25.00 in your PayPal or other online Account for gas to do the next part.

You will give me your City & State where you live.

I will contact local High School or Community College to find a Science teacher that will have you come in and video the EXACT demo w/the exact same equipment. They will inspect it and then you are to do the video as you presented above. The teacher at the end will validate that NO Tricks or "side steps" were taken and that indeed this was done by no other explination then "TK".

** If this video then passes you will recieve the remainder of the $75.00 into your PayPal or other online account.

*** BUT - If it is found that you used any kind of tricks or other acts of dishonesty - You will need to pay back the $25.00 and apologize to the group for your act of Fraud.

It has been asked of me in private:

"Jj - do I have to state in public forum that I am taking this challenge?"

The answer is: YES

- I've put the challenge up in public. So anyone taking the challenge have to state so in public as well. This way everyone here knows, "I've been 'called on the challenge'." With everything clearly documented here will be watched, espeically me. Should someone meet ALL the above requirement, then I have to PAY OUT THE MONEY. (Which I have every intention of doing so.)

- But also it gives us a clear accounting of the person doing the challenge. So that we all see: Did they meet the Check List?

Do I expect anyone to take the Challenge?

NO - I honestly do not.

For this simple reason: When one removes the actual science behind it - you remove what you thought was TK. So no one will dare risk proving I and others were right all along - it's just science being passed off as Psi. The "believers" know this only all too well. Thus they cannot step up - for then they too will prove - it's just Science and not Psi.

Ok, I've thought it through and have changed the $50.00 to be awarded AFTER the teacher demo part of the challenge to $75.00. Which means the award has been rounded off to $100.00.

Now it has been questioned as to my acceptance of the video:

I can only say this once.

ANYONE that meets ALL the above conditions, I HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO ACCEPT IT! What part of that do you NOT understand?? It really is JUST THAT SIMPLE... Because other wise I look the fool and Con-artist. I have to much respect for my reputation than to play that kind of stupid game. If you "do it" - hey I will honestly be super impressed and will be HAPPY to pay you the money, if for no other reason - YOU DID IT! YOU PROVED YOUR WORDS W/CLEAR ACTIONS!!

Ok - there are a lot of talkers of this "power" - so any 'takers' --- or are we still just all talk?

[Arthur Vandolay]

I was waiting for JJ to ammend the rules before I posted, so here I am to validate his claims.

I love 'Magic' and I love 'Science' So either way this is a cool trick. But that is all it is until I am shown differently. Words are beautiful but a demostration is proof.

If a picture paints a thousand words, and there is a 300 character limit (SHOW A PICTURE!)

(This is Anthony by the way)

[rev r]

I have a question Jj.

If the required constant field of vision is 5 feet and the moving portion of the alledged psi-wheel is only 2 1/2 to 3 inches wide, how are you going to confirm that the object is moving in the correct direction?

It just seems to me that movement would be difficult to detect in such a wide shot. Perhaps marking one of the panels on the "wheel"?

Another suggestion would be to amend the table requirement to also include performing the demonstation on a raised piece of clear glass or plexi if a glass-top coffee or dining table isn't available.

[Jjbreen]

I have a question Jj.

If the required constant field of vision is 5 feet and the moving portion of the alledged psi-wheel is only 2 1/2 to 3 inches wide, how are you going to confirm that the object is moving in the correct direction?

It just seems to me that movement would be difficult to detect in such a wide shot. Perhaps marking one of the panels on the "wheel"?

Another suggestion would be to amend the table requirement to also include performing the demonstation on a raised piece of clear glass or plexi if a glass-top coffee or dining table isn't available.

Actually this is an excellent point. So now I'm wondering if I put a size limit that the pin wheel cannot be smaller then - 4" or so?? Or I make the FOV closer which I can see as well.

Yes the plexi glass set up on glass cups or other CLEAR "leg type supports" - to avoid anything that could be hidden. Ok, I can amend this - they are good valid points.

BTW:

A couple of more people PM'd me about donating to the Challenge. YES - just let me know how much you wish to donate to the Challenge and Like Anthony - I'll post the PM agreement so that your name is clearly seen and what it is you are donating to the challenge.

PS: If anyone does this you have to be good to your word. Do NOT make a donation claim and back out. I'm very serious I have the money set aside and it's ready to transfer to a given PayPal or other Online type account when the conditions have been met. I am very true to my word on this and I expect nothing less of anyone else.

PPSS: I also expect this money to set there till it is extremely obvious that these Talkers will just keep talking and talking and walk away from the challenge w/their tail between their legs. I have zero expectation that any of these talkers will 'walk their talk' -

[Arthur Vandolay]

If anyone does this you have to be good to your word. Do NOT make a donation claim and back out. I'm very serious I have the money set aside and it's ready to transfer to a given PayPal or other Online type account when the conditions have been met. I am very true to my word on this and I expect nothing less of anyone else.

If I am not mistaken, if one claims to make a payout such as this, and fails to comply a contract has been broken. And since there is no signature it would have to be a verbal conract (imo), I know that in the US a verbal contract is just as binding as a writtin one. So if you do not 'pay up' so to speak, if I am NOT mistaken, you can be sued. I could be wrong though, (see how easy it is to admit that you can be wrong)

(again, this is 'Anthony')

[Jjbreen]

If I am not mistaken, if one claims to make a payout such as this, and fails to comply a contract has been broken. And since there is no signature it would have to be a verbal conract (imo), I know that in the US a verbal contract is just as binding as a writtin one. So if you do not 'pay up' so to speak, if I am NOT mistaken, you can be sued. I could be wrong though, (see how easy it is to admit that you can be wrong)

(again, this is 'Anthony')

Legal action will never be sought - but they ruine any crediblity they might have had + they would likely be banned from the group.

I'm just asking that IF anyone does this - be credible and accountable. All I ask....

[rev r]

Actually this is an excellent point. So now I'm wondering if I put a size limit that the pin wheel cannot be smaller then - 4" or so?? Or I make the FOV closer which I can see as well.

Ideally 2 cameras would be the way to go. One to confirm set up and a second (shown in the FOV of the first) to record the movement. But that is making the challenge a little difficult.

Since all the requirements have to be met and documented on the video for it to be a valid entry, I suppose zooming into the standard FOV for a Psi-wheel demo would be fine.

How is the Psi-Ball challenge coming? I had an idea for an experiment posted on one of these threads that you could use if you wanted.

[Jjbreen]

Ideally 2 cameras would be the way to go. One to confirm set up and a second (shown in the FOV of the first) to record the movement. But that is making the challenge a little difficult.

Since all the requirements have to be met and documented on the video for it to be a valid entry, I suppose zooming into the standard FOV for a Psi-wheel demo would be fine.

How is the Psi-Ball challenge coming? I had an idea for an experiment posted on one of these threads that you could use if you wanted.

Ok, the Psi Ball is taking a little more thought - so:

ANYONE that has ideas for a credible and valid Psi Ball Test please post your ideas. All are welcomed.

[DakaSha]

there isnt one jj get it into your head. its felt suggestivly

and just because it cannot be PROVEN to you dosnt mean it doesnt exist.

now mabye flaring would work... but that would be almost impossible to prove on video... if it exists

Edited May 19, 2007 by DakaSha

[Jjbreen]

there isnt one jj get it into your head. its felt suggestivly

and just because it cannot be PROVEN to you dosnt mean it doesnt exist.

now mabye flaring would work... but that would be almost impossible to prove on video... if it exists

I understand - thus the challenge....

Trying to come up w/a challenge to allow the 'believers' to 'walk the talk'.... but making so it's credible and accountable. Yes the Psi Ball is going to be a challenge.... no doubt... the Pin (Psi) Wheel was an easier challenge to put together.

[rev r]

The Psi-Ball has an effect that according to what I have read is easier to produce than "flaring", temperature.

I'd say the Psi-ball would have to be a "cold construct" to factor out ambient body temperature causing the effect.

Equipment

1 sealed .5L bottle of water kept at room temperature

1 clear (unpatterened, unmarked) plastic or glass tumbler

1 immersion thermometer (you can get these for about 40.00 online)

1 room thermometer preferably with a digital display

1 video camera

Purpose: Claimant will attempt to create a Psi-Ball cold enough to lower the temperature of a glass of water 3 degrees below room temperature.

Requirements:

1. Demonstration must be performed on a clear table surface (ie, clear glass top coffee/ dining table or raised platform with clear glass or plexiglass top)

2. Claimant's hands must remain 30mm apart

3. Both thermometer displays must be in frame at all times

4. Demonstration must be performed in one take (no edits or pauses)

Process:

1. Water bottle must be opened and poured into tumber on camera

2. Thermometers must be activated and allowed to establish starting temperature

3. Claimant must state name, age, and geographical location

4. Any witnesses must show themselves on camera and state their name

5. Demonstration begins

Just off the top of my head.

[beale947]

We can't let this important tread go off the first page. We still need someone to take it. Come on people prove it! If you can...

[Arthur Vandolay]

We can't let this important tread go off the first page. We still need someone to take it. Come on people prove it! If you can...

I agree beale947, considering almost everyday there is a new thread on how this crap is real. NOTE I AM ONLY REFERRING TO PSI WHEELS. I don't have enough information to offer an opinion on the balls.

Of course my hundred is starting to gather dust like JJ's.

[beale947]

Bump to the top. Seriously, all you believers and people who can do these things. Prove it by actions instead of just words.

[DakaSha]

i can do it. if you dont believe me suck a nut

Edited May 23, 2007 by DakaSha

[drakonwick]

i can do it. if you dont believe me suck a nut

WOW, Let me tell you that right there sure is convincing!

[DakaSha]

who said im here to convince the skeptics?

[Wombat]

who said im here to convince the skeptics?

You, judging by your previous posts. But it doesn't matter wether you are trying to convice anyone or not because you're just a joke.

[DakaSha]

sorry but this deserves an A1 ROFL

edit: haha and also provides proof for the fact that being a skeptic doesnt make you more observant then others ^^

Edited May 23, 2007 by DakaSha