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Leonardo

Would you Believe?

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Leonardo

Premise: The bible was written 50 or so years ago by various authors who all claimed to have heard the voice of a god and wrote this down. Jesus was an anti-government revolutionary in the Middle East. He had been tried, found guilty and executed. Someone (maybe many people) compiled all these writings into the book you know. Assume you had no religion upon reading the book.

Question: Would all those who are Christian today still be believers?

If someone wants to follow this up with the torah/quran the results might be interesting.

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AmantdesEtoiles

that theory would be impossible because the bible has been circulating the globe and being translated into multiple languages before medieval times.

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Leonardo

Amant,

Welcome to UM.

Yes, I am aware of the antiquity of the Bible. This is an exercise in rational thinking. I want those who are believers to suspend that belief (temporarily) and look at the bible as if it had been written recently. This was inspired (a little) by the thread about the woman who threw her children off a pier or bridge. Everyone condemns this behaviour (rightly) but she claims it was because god told her to do this. Who are we to question this? We might say she is insane but that wouldn't prove her claim wrong.

I want people to look at the bible and use these modern thought processes to decide whether they would believe such claims as it makes if they were made today (or recently).

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brave_new_world

Would make no difference, because true christians and spiritual followers dont worship to actual personality of jesus, but the perennial philosophy which he preaches. The perennial philosophy is a philosophy that has been around since mankind has had rational thought. Jesus(if he existed) taught it, the hindus thousands of years earlier taught it, buddha(if he existed) five hundred years earlier taught it. Same philosophy but different contexts that reflect the culture and language of the time it was preached or when the mystic had his/her experience(not all mystics wrote down their experiences of mystical enlightenment or the means to gaining it).

Many of the indoctrinated christians who believe that jesus was exclusively the one and only son of god would probably stop believing according to your theory leonardo because they are not concerned with eternal universal truths but are proccupied with events in time. But the true spiritual seekers who only look upon the bible as containing symbolic and universal truths wouldn;t stop practicing the message.

The perennial message in the bible still holds true today and has helped people transcend their ego of the world of sin or creaturely life(the life of self-will) to become one with the Godhead which is the ground of all existence.

Abbot John Chapman said this about St John of the cross who was a christian mystic(actually did exist 1542-1591)

The Abbot (Chapman is apparently referring to Abbot Marmion) says St John of the Cross is like a sponge full of christianity. You can squeeze it all out, and the full mystical theory(in other words the pure perennial philosophy) remains. Consrquently for fifteen years or so I hated St John of the Cross and called him a Buddhist. I loved St Teresa and read her over and over again. She is first a Christian, only secondarily a mystic. Then I found I had wasted fifteen years, as far as prayer was concerned.

HAHAHAHAHA funny and beautiful!!! So yeah. It is only the mystical teachings in the bible that have any real practical value anyway. And these mystical teachings are the same throughout all cultures with or without the bible.

Edited by brave_new_world

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rev r
Premise: The bible was written 50 or so years ago by various authors who all claimed to have heard the voice of a god and wrote this down. Jesus was an anti-government revolutionary in the Middle East. He had been tried, found guilty and executed. Someone (maybe many people) compiled all these writings into the book you know. Assume you had no religion upon reading the book.

Question: Would all those who are Christian today still be believers?

If someone wants to follow this up with the torah/quran the results might be interesting.

It's difficult to say. I seriously doubt that the book would even exist in the form we know it. More likely it would be a collection of Jesus' own writings, with other books featuring commentaries and extrapolations.

I don't think the belief would be as widespread, but it might be stronger in those who did.

Good question.

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Wolf MacCanine

I have to point out here that there is a good example which can answer the query in the original post.

Just look at Scientology.It was founded during the 1950's,and has a surprisingly large amount of adherents.Even though it was originally started because of a bet,people have fallen for it.

So,it's very likely that if the Bible was written 50 years ago...you can easily bet that there would be a large amount of people who would believe in it.

People are so gullible...

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Sherapy
Premise: The bible was written 50 or so years ago by various authors who all claimed to have heard the voice of a god and wrote this down. Jesus was an anti-government revolutionary in the Middle East. He had been tried, found guilty and executed. Someone (maybe many people) compiled all these writings into the book you know. Assume you had no religion upon reading the book.

Question: Would all those who are Christian today still be believers?

If someone wants to follow this up with the torah/quran the results might be interesting.

Leo, this may be of interest to you, in reading bible storys to a child say of 8 years rasied in a open minded home meaning there is value in all paths, taught compassion and emphathy by example , no segregation due to any difference in beleifs, it is of the utmost interest to hear the opinion of the child, so in that I would say no actaully given a choice no, one would not choose relgion based on the content, some who have no choice also choose to go another path no matter the cost often the family will disown them and they will be shunned more than they won't......... a kid who is limit free relatively not completely...My son says the most interestiing things, such as the devil is a much nicer kinder guy compared to god, the noahs ark made my son laugh hysterical, Adam and eve he didn't find it palusable... he does think Jesus is a wise dude he trys to be kind..etc etc.......

IMO the religous construct is designed to rape one of the joy of life, to have no fun what so ever , to hate everything, to worsship tha twhich is harmful and hurts others....I think the one who decided what books to put in was very jealous of those that in spite of maiinstream dogma enjoyed life celebrated sexuality and saw beyond the limits of the day..this person hated women, hated everyone, kids, life himself and its relflected in the bible and he had a lust for kiilling........... clearly this is not god inspired........by any stretch of the imagination .....

Edited by Supra Sheri

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IamsSon
Premise: The bible was written 50 or so years ago by various authors who all claimed to have heard the voice of a god and wrote this down. Jesus was an anti-government revolutionary in the Middle East. He had been tried, found guilty and executed. Someone (maybe many people) compiled all these writings into the book you know. Assume you had no religion upon reading the book.

Question: Would all those who are Christian today still be believers?

If someone wants to follow this up with the torah/quran the results might be interesting.

So, in your premise this anti-government revolutionary, was he seen alive on the Sunday after he was killed by crucifiction? Was he seen to ascend into Heaven by witnesses? Or was he just a guy who spoke nice things, and died horribly?

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Beckys_Mom

I'd still believe in God..as for the bible...LMAO those who know me ...no prizes guessing what my answer would be :innocent:

On a lighter note I was watching South Park last night...it was about a new kid that comes to South Park, who just happens to be a Mormon...he brings Stan back to meet his folks, they sit Stan down and tell him about John Smith, the guy who claims he heard voices from God.. John Smith prayed and prayed to God asking God to tell him what religious group to follow....he later claimes, God told him to be a mormon, cuz the other religions where wrong lol

As the mormon family read on to lil Stan..they told the story on how some white native Indian - (yea I said white lol..cuz appartently the white indian told J.Smith that the reason there where Red Indians, was some kind of punishment from God lol)...

.....Anyhoo.........the white native indian told him where to find gold plated tablets that had messeges written from God...but no one was allowed to see these tablets...and John Smith was to translate what was written on them...so when one of the town folk asked if he could re-translate the script from the gold tablets...John Smith made up excuses saying. - God was angry at him for translating the scripts before and he wasnt to do it again!!! :w00t:...it was so funny how the test of the people all sucked in what John Smith was saying...

It goes to show you...anyone could pretend to hear voices from God..claim they saw visions, and write whatever springs to mind, thus creating a new religion..and i'll bet it would get a number of followers!!

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Sherapy
So, in your premise this anti-government revolutionary, was he seen alive on the Sunday after he was killed by crucifiction? Was he seen to ascend into Heaven by witnesses? Or was he just a guy who spoke nice things, and died horribly?

son i have trouble with the idea that this is a hoilday the crucifixtion and ressurection....what happened to jesus isn't anything to laugh about, or the god that sent his kid in for this needs help IMO....... not worship and holidays......

Humans are very strange on the way they look at things.....the symbol is a guy with a thorny laurel on his head, blood drippiing down ; nailed to a cross and people wear this around thier necks ......he was sent in by his Dad, to be mauled by his own creations , I'm sorry i see nothing wonderous in this, to die for the sin of eating a apple. nad all humans that come after, this is beyond harsh....... bottom line is this is a diety that has serious issues......

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truth's last stand
son i have trouble with the idea that this is a hoilday the crucifixtion and ressurection....what happened to jesus isn't anything to laugh about, or the god that sent his kid in for this needs help IMO....... not worship and holidays......

Humans are very strange on the way they look at things.....the symbol is a guy with a thorny laurel on his head, blood drippiing down ; nailed to a cross and people wear this around thier necks ......he was sent in by his Dad, to be mauled by his own creations , I'm sorry i see nothing wonderous in this, to die for the sin of eating a apple. nad all humans that come after, this is beyond harsh....... bottom line is this is a diety that has serious issues......

Holidays have always had odd beginnings. The Easter holiday, as with Christmas, correspond to pagan holidays, and the early church fathers apparently saw fit to celebrate the resurrection by sticking the holiday during the time of pagan resurrection festivals. Holidays are largely symbolic (consider July 4, which is not really significant other than that a piece of paper was signed; independence for the American colonies did not actually come until much later), and considering that the bulk of non-Jewish converts to Christianity came from some sort of pagan faith, it is not surprising that the holidays responded to that. The beliefs Christianity hinge on are that of God coming to the earth in the person of Jesus, and the designation of Jesus as the "son" is largely a matter of translation and tradition (I don't think this is really the place for a theological discussion of Trinitarian belief).

It is peculiar to have a religious symbol to be a mean of execution, but again, it's all about symbolism. On the note of symbolism, the Garden of Eden narrative is largely symbolic as well (and the problem of sin would necessarily be solved by one without sin), and the crescendo of Christianity is not about an apple, per se. Take the actual beliefs for what you please, but I think this is a gross simplification of doctrine.

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Sherapy
Holidays have always had odd beginnings. The Easter holiday, as with Christmas, correspond to pagan holidays, and the early church fathers apparently saw fit to celebrate the resurrection by sticking the holiday during the time of pagan resurrection festivals. Holidays are largely symbolic (consider July 4, which is not really significant other than that a piece of paper was signed; independence for the American colonies did not actually come until much later), and considering that the bulk of non-Jewish converts to Christianity came from some sort of pagan faith, it is not surprising that the holidays responded to that. The beliefs Christianity hinge on are that of God coming to the earth in the person of Jesus, and the designation of Jesus as the "son" is largely a matter of translation and tradition (I don't think this is really the place for a theological discussion of Trinitarian belief).

It is peculiar to have a religious symbol to be a mean of execution, but again, it's all about symbolism. On the note of symbolism, the Garden of Eden narrative is largely symbolic as well (and the problem of sin would necessarily be solved by one without sin), and the crescendo of Christianity is not about an apple, per se. Take the actual beliefs for what you please, but I think this is a gross simplification of doctrine.

yes I'm aware of the metaphorical meanings....actually it is simple the first woman ate a apple , a snake talked her into it and god has been p***ed ever since...sent in his osn he got mauled by gods defective creations god is still p***ed...

sin is made up, as is the majority of the bible, people in those days were very desperate and it reflects in the writings......Looking forward to death because life is so horrible.....That not a fun time.....IMO.... After they killed off the pagans by burning them they adopted their hoildays.......

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ramster83

Hmmm you see i often read these books on mysteries that are supposedly based on "true events" and "witness accounts" and i do question them...Thats when it comes down to what you WANT to believe. I choose to believe that the Bible is part truth. I choose to believe what i think is truth in the Bible. I choose to believe Jesus existed. If i were to have this situation where it was written 50 years ago by people that claimed to have been divinely inspired i'd have to look at the origins of what is "divine" - to me God is good...I decide to view God in a positive light...If these people wrote the Bible 50 years ago, about a dude named Jesus who was a great man and followed God- i'd choose to believe it. Then again even what i choose to believe is true may not be true- but it all comes down to perspective. My perspective of God is a good one- so what i believe to be Godly - i'd see as possibly being divinely inspired. Its a matter of choice and thats the point of someones belief or lack of.

Edited by ramster83

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mailboy

The reason Christian holidays are so similar to the pagans is easy to understand. The at the begining of christianity the followers were heavily persecuted by the those in charge, the pagans. To keep continue there celebrations without persecution they had to do them along the same time as pagan holiday with similar celebrations so that nothing seemed suspitious. Nero used christians as live torches for his parties. Not an easy price to pay so I can't blame them for hiding their celebrations behind pagan ones.

Supra, you have an interesting view of the the pascal mystery. I have never looked at it that way because i have never looked at it from simply a historic perspective. You obviously don't understand the metaphor of the story because you keep saying they this all happened because of an apple. Far less simple than that. You acurately described the symbol, but fell far short of describing its meaning.

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Paranoid Android

The Bible if it were written 50 years ago would be a very different book to the one we have today. The BIble was written over a period of 1400 years, it wasn't all started by a small group of people within the same generation. a Bible written 50 years ago would not suffer from the cultural differences that it does. It would not have the Old Testament prophets and prophecies, and historical narrative of the Israelite people. It may very well have originally been written in English, thus not being subject to translational differences of opinions that a text from another language can entail. And even if it wasn't written in English, it certainly wouldn't be written in a language hardly in modern-day use.

So it's impossible to have the exact same Bible we have today, or even one similar, by account of the target audience. That said, assuming there was no Bible as we know it, and 50 years ago a group of someone's wrote an account of some dude who died (and presumably rose again), I can honestly say I don't know how I'd consider it, and i'd have to read the text to make a judgement on that one, just as I read the Bible text and made a judgmenet on it.

Regards, PA

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dougadam

The Gutenberg Bible (also known as the 42-line Bible, and as the Mazarin Bible) is a print of the Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible that was printed by Johannes Gutenberg, in Mainz, Germany in the fifteenth century. The printed bible is a possible imitation of a Mainz illuminated manuscript, the so called Giant Bible of Mainz (Biblia latina), whose 1300 pages were written in two years, 1452-5

A little older than 50 years!

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GIDEON MAGE

Let's see. If the N.t. had been written 50 years ago, then, to follow the same time line, the Church Councils would be rewriting it to their tast around 2350. By that time, the "real guy" would have been forgotten, and people would be asked to believe in the mythical rewrite. Yes, I think people would fall for it, just like they did in real life. Probably some dictator would take it up as a tool for mass murder again.

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