A Gaze Into The Hatred

[Mattshark]

One thing you have to get straight is the Qu'ran and the Hadith or Hadeeth. First off whenever I see someone refer to the Qu'ran as the Koran, I know they have a corrupted version. Did you know that many Western people publish versions of the Koran that are slanted to completely take a phrase in the worst possible way?

Make sure you have a version with the American Muslim Associations Stamp of approval.

Second the Hadith.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith

Within Islam itself there is fighting over who wrote the Hadith and the weight of its words. The Hadith was written by the followers of Mohammed and its a set of rules that are to be followed. Most of the oppression of women in Islam comes from interpretation of the Hadith. Just read that link for a basic understanding.

In addition one of the things you are missing in the Qu'ran with regard to women is the way rules were being set up. In other words women were given the right to divorce, child custody issues were dealt with, marriage rights, dowry rights. women's RIGHTS were discussed in the Qu'ran for the first time really in religion. Now many of those rules were corrupted but they weren't written for the reason you say.

You are probably going to ignore this post anyway but I wish you would consider this, The Qu'ran says to do two things before beating the wife. First admonish her, then put her in a separate bed and finally beat her. In this way it actually gets the man to calm down. If you are talking about men that used to beat first and ask questions later, then its a way of warning the woman that she should comply. Not necessarily a good thing by todays standards but religions arose in the time that they arose. Unlike the Bible, they actually have the original writings of Mohammed and you can see as ramster pointed out that it was written giving women desperately needed rights.

When Muslim men follow the Qu'ran the way it was intended the women flourish. But when it is twisted then of course we wind up with Shari law.

Very well said mate.

Kratos, what you are doing is just as much hatred all religous text has outdated ideas in them, not to suprising, but you need to look past the crap spewed out by those with personal agendas and bias' Islam is not a religion of hate, my dad who is christian read the Koran 40 years ago and he thought it quite liberal for a religous text.

No body told me where the figure of 10% if Muslims are killers yet. I will take a stand and say that is a complete pile of bull sh** all together and is infact a lie to perpetrait religous hatred.

[+Sherapy]

True, Relgions the abrahamics are harsh, I hadn't looked at it in quite the way you are presenting it , but baby steps away from beating the wife... violence is taught and beleifs inspire behavior....

[Bella-Angelique]

Portraying all religious people as being fundamentalists is a huge part of the problem and why no real progress seems to be made to help those who are closest to it to fight and eliminate or change it.

It is similiar to the problems in Africa. Instead of actively supporting tolerant and progressive African nations in every way possible, the constant drone put out by the media is that somehow outsiders magically know better and can do more to fix the problems there than the ones who have lived in the middle of it all of their lives.

[+Sherapy]

Portraying all religious people as being fundamentalists is a huge part of the problem and why no real progress seems to be made to help those who are closest to it to fight and eliminate or change it.

It is similiar to the problems in Africa. Instead of actively supporting tolerant and progressive African nations in every way possible, the constant drone put out by the media is that somehow outsiders magically know better and can do more to fix the problems there than the ones who have lived in the middle of it all of their lives.

Bella are you inferring that the media is painting a awful picture of religion ......most who have outgrown relgion were once relgious, the abrahamics are basically the same only differing in cruelty.....I agree with you but the old ideas that are so harmful wouldn't and aren't working , here or in any society that sees itself as civilized, its like saying the way to deal with the bully is to bully him back and it does nothing but create more problems.. years later the same observable outcome the samer approach....when something doesn't work you let it go , recycle it possibly, renew it , relangauge, transcend it it to fit the newer understandings ...but you don't change the costume and call it something else...lol thats so political my friend...... and if we are goona evolve we need to be able to discern value from invaluable and let go of beleifs that are't working......

I too would put little into the opinion of the media...but the effects don't need the media to observe they have been one of hte most harmful ideas to date for mankind, and no one is exempt from this..... maybe it could get worse but i hope not to live to see that......

I feel gids question was a good one why are we supporting constructs that harm even one person why ??that is the question that needs to be looked at.......

Edited January 4, 2007 by Supra Sheri

[truethat]

True, Relgions the abrahamics are harsh, I hadn't looked at it in quite the way you are presenting it , but baby steps away from beating the wife... violence is taught and beleifs inspire behavior....

The reason Mohammed allegedly came is that the beliefs had been corrupted. The way the Qu'ran was written is like this a lot....baby steps. So for example it starts out saying "Don't pray when you are drunk" and then winds up saying "Don't drink"

The process showed the success. If you have an abusive male who was raised in a situation that encouraged him to be violent. If he beats his wife and children and you say "don't beat your wife" then he's going to get defensive. If you say "Don't beat your wife unless you give her a "time out" which is basically what sending her to another bed could be viewed as, it gives a measure of cool down time. It trains the male in a way.

I don't think any of the religious books are the word of God but I do think that Islam is the best among them with regard to how women are treated. Quoting the negative attributes towards women in the Qu'ran totally misses the point. So when someone does this it shows they don't really understand the point of the Qu'ran for women. Kratos is no different than the supporters of Shari law when he shows he can not comprehend the statements but in the most violent way possible.

[+Sherapy]

The reason Mohammed allegedly came is that the beliefs had been corrupted. The way the Qu'ran was written is like this a lot....baby steps. So for example it starts out saying "Don't pray when you are drunk" and then winds up saying "Don't drink"

The process showed the success. If you have an abusive male who was raised in a situation that encouraged him to be violent. If he beats his wife and children and you say "don't beat your wife" then he's going to get defensive. If you say "Don't beat your wife unless you give her a "time out" which is basically what sending her to another bed could be viewed as, it gives a measure of cool down time. It trains the male in a way.

I don't think any of the religious books are the word of God but I do think that Islam is the best among them with regard to how women are treated. Quoting the negative attributes towards women in the Qu'ran totally misses the point. So when someone does this it shows they don't really understand the point of the Qu'ran for women. Kratos is no different than the supporters of Shari law when he shows he can not comprehend the statements but in the most violent way possible.

True , i appreciate your insight , geez girl this is barbaric, Why not jsut eliminate the beleifs that are inspiring the behavior, i see one hand the flow of logic yet on the other the poor women imagine the egg shells she walks on, a time out... true i see this as a form of abuse too, the underlying message is one of inferiority and it infers that the man has no self control and the women is the cause of the violence he unleashes, i can understand it would be a very primitive understandings as they are ruled by relgious law........

"i do feel that your sharing this does shed a lite of understanding and I do think that is a start...

It makes me think of DR. Phil on a show a few nites ago when the parents are beating the doors down of their kids room with baseball bats and the kids are hitting them and stuff... they are all sitting on his show desperate to get rid of these kids that are causing all the conflict, I beleive the parents wanted to divorce the kids.... you know the mentality right...he says "How is this working for you" the parents say "well not real well after all we are on your show," he says listen i can show you how to solve conflict without insane behavior , really there is another way.......

there is a poem that everyone has read: its if you teach a child to hate it will hate etc...we have all read it...

A child is a clean slate there is nothing written on them , the parents write on the childs physce what they will become, by the beleifs they instill , if we want to change behavior we must be honest with ourselves and admit that there are beleifs that just arent' workiing, never gonna work... Now throw in the fact that you don't belive this is from 'god' but True many do and thats when things get real dangerous........and have....and True how about what kind of deity would handle conflict in this manner, "well lets time out the women," see if that dosen't work, this is a very limited diety on ideas and very ineffective, he creates flawed and impaired people and then can't help them...hmmmm I find this very distressing and disturbing......

Edited January 4, 2007 by Supra Sheri

[truethat]

This is a big part of the problem. No slight on you Sheri but comparing an American family on Dr. Phil to women living practically nomadic lifestyles in the deserts of the middle east nearly 2000 years ago is just really the kind of mindset that makes it impossible to understand. For the TIME that these rule were written they were incredible. In the United States women were not allowed to vote until 1920. Think about it. Its all well and good to sit in the comfort of our modern state and assume that everyone would be as enlightened as we supposedly are. Its quite another to look at the reality of how these women lived.

Basically take your Dr. Phil example and make him Mohammed. Take a pattern of men freaking out on their women and being outnumbered by them and just a big mess like that family he described. So Mohammed says OK. The man is in charge, ok, and the woman is like a queen. You have to give her whatever she needs and you have to be obedient to him. Work it out. That's basically what happened. No one told the men to hate the women or to beat them into obediance.

[+Sherapy]

This is a big part of the problem. No slight on you Sheri but comparing an American family on Dr. Phil to women living practically nomadic lifestyles in the deserts of the middle east nearly 2000 years ago is just really the kind of mindset that makes it impossible to understand. For the TIME that these rule were written they were incredible. In the United States women were not allowed to vote until 1920. Think about it. Its all well and good to sit in the comfort of our modern state and assume that everyone would be as enlightened as we supposedly are. Its quite another to look at the reality of how these women lived.

Basically take your Dr. Phil example and make him Mohammed. Take a pattern of men freaking out on their women and being outnumbered by them and just a big mess like that family he described. So Mohammed says OK. The man is in charge, ok, and the woman is like a queen. You have to give her whatever she needs and you have to be obedient to him. Work it out. That's basically what happened. No one told the men to hate the women or to beat them into obediance.

True no offense taken, i enjoy talking with you.....IMO it is very DR. Phillish.... american women have had to work long and hard to be the equals we now are, True i have had extensive converstaions with a muslim she is a get friend the numbers aren't important, you and i are on the same page in essence, I call this lady a hero and many others I have known, America by her words has afforded her oppourtunity she would of never had, her daughter is gay she had to get out.... in getting out they give hope to other women, I don't care what the shari law is no women, no person, under any circumstance should have to submit to such treatement esepcially not forgetting there is no such thing as w god who is commanding these things, one can beleive this all they want whtever but this is obviously the relfected mind of a very primitive udnerstanding.....

all women are our sisters what example are we if we encourgage such absurd ideas on how to handle a abusive situation.....If we fail our sisteres we fail ourselves.......

so what came out of this for you true????Has it inspired you and how if you don't mind me asking?????????

For me a compassion and to make sure i hug my freind the next time i see her..... she is an amazing lady what she has gone through and has transcended....she is a single muslim woman who divorced her husband due to inhumane cruelty.....she also inspired another two to be exact one american and one aisan to leave horribly abusive relationships, one of them never used to smile she was so broken now she smiles all the time and in that we are so happy for her.... true american IMO doesn't mean woman arent' abused......its a serious issue.....wouldn't you agree???

Edited January 4, 2007 by Supra Sheri

[truethat]

See Shari law and Islam are not the same thing. Its like comparing a Catholic to a Protestant. Apples and oranges. People who don't know about the religion will do this and think its all "Christianity"

For me in Islam? If I had to go back to believing I'd chose Islam. I think as I have stated before that the religion is different as practiced by women than it is practiced by men. There are different rules.

One of my impressions with the religion is the way women in American presume so much about these women. We all know someone who was oppressed. But if you take the comparisons all the way through, there's a big difference between the extreme versions of Islam and the regular versions. The regular modern Muslim women who cover are very empowered women because they strip men of their ability to judge them for their bodies and sexuality.

I always see the Muslim women like the Benne Gesserit in the movie Dune.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bene_Gesserit

I think your friend is a strong woman and this is part of why Muslim and Black women are so empowered. These women have been through so much that its in their blood. So to have American women whose biggest challenge seems to be whether to shop at Target or the Gap telling these women they are going to help them become "empowered" just makes me laugh my butt off.

Edited January 4, 2007 by truethat

[+Sherapy]

See Shari law and Islam are not the same thing. Its like comparing a Catholic to a Protestant. Apples and oranges. People who don't know about the religion will do this and think its all "Christianity"

For me in Islam? If I had to go back to believing I'd chose Islam. I think as I have stated before that the religion is different as practiced by women than it is practiced by men. There are different rules.

One of my impressions with the religion is the way women in American presume so much about these women. We all know someone who was oppressed. But if you take the comparisons all the way through, there's a big difference between the extreme versions of Islam and the regular versions. The regular modern Muslim women who cover are very empowered women because they strip men of their ability to judge them for their bodies and sexuality.

I always see the Muslim women like the Benne Gesserit in the movie Dune.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bene_Gesserit

I think your friend is a strong woman and this is part of why Muslim and Black women are so empowered. These women have been through so much that its in their blood. So to have American women whose biggest challenge seems to be whether to shop at Target or the Gap telling these women they are going to help them become "empowered" just makes me laugh my butt off.

I see i forgot that you were a praticing muslim female, hmm i will look at this differntly what would you say in regards to american christian women as far as strong????

go into more detail on the covering if you don't mind......

[truethat]

Well I can pm you more info. I also want to point out though that while I emulated the Muslim women I never felt as powerful as they were. You can see the difference immediately in a convert and a Muslim who has been Muslim through generations in her family.

[+Sherapy]

Well I can pm you more info. I also want to point out though that while I emulated the Muslim women I never felt as powerful as they were. You can see the difference immediately in a convert and a Muslim who has been Muslim through generations in her family.

So in otherwords all women regardless of location relgiion share a common bond a strength that can transcend anything????

i was raised in an extremely abusive enviorment my formative years and i can say i have used it to empower me and forge new ground that could not of been possible had I of not been in a situation to cultivate wisdom, insight, understand forgiveness, change generations of abusive treatment, cultivate understanding (of course i'm in a state of continual growth) etc etc..so if this is what your point is its a good one true and thanks for shaing.... there are no victims . and its great to know you are out herre raising awareness shedding a healing light on things.... yes Pm me i am very interested in looking at things in new ways..

[Bella-Angelique]

Groups that want to wipe out all religion are as narrow minded, cruel, selfcentered, viscious, intolerant, bullying, dangerous as any radical fundamenatlist relgious group in their philosophy, and just as demented in their desires to dominate over others.

They are not part of a solution to any problem, they are problem themselves.

This I am absolutely positive of. They are a threat to all who love freedom.

Edited January 4, 2007 by Bella-Angelique

[truethat]

I too was raised in an extremely abusive environment.

So I get that in the heart of deep oppression one can create a light of power in oneself that can not be extinguished for the rest of your life. You might not always use it but it is there. That is why when the oppressed Muslim woman gets to America say, just watch how they flourish. Its amazing.

Groups that want to wipe out all religion are as narrow minded, cruel, selfcentered, viscious, intolerant, bullying, dangerous as any radical fundamenatlist relgious group in their philosophy, and just as demented in their desires to dominate over others.

They are not part of a solution to any problem, they are are problem themselves.

This I am absolutely positive of. They are a threat to all who love freedom.

Totally agree. Great post

Edited January 4, 2007 by truethat

[+Sherapy]

I too was raised in an extremely abusive environment.

So I get that in the heart of deep oppression one can create a light of power in oneself that can not be extinguished for the rest of your life. You might not always use it but it is there. That is why when the oppressed Muslim woman gets to America say, just watch how they flourish. Its amazing.

Totally agree. Great post

I knew that my freind only one of great wisdom would care about the things you do......and stand for the things you do ...i see you

[+Sherapy]

Groups that want to wipe out all religion are as narrow minded, cruel, selfcentered, viscious, intolerant, bullying, dangerous as any radical fundamenatlist relgious group in their philosophy, and just as demented in their desires to dominate over others.

They are not part of a solution to any problem, they are problem themselves.

This I am absolutely positive of. They are a threat to all who love freedom.

Bella although i donot think all religons should be 'wiped' out jsut grow u, transecnd, evolve ,relanguage...i see nohting free in insisting on holding onto beleifs that are harmful.let alone holding on to beleifs at all by the very statement you are defining slavery.....

patterning yourself around others opinions (bibles etc) is nothing more than a form of slavery...Louanna Blackwell

Freedom of any kind is not being experinced at this time in humanity its a great idea but its not there as of yet nor a comprehensive understanding of freedom eesepcially to think its a freedom to have beleifs that harm in any way, that is fear.......by the very nature of the things that many cherish they define freedom...well i don't think I need to say more do i???

Edited January 4, 2007 by Supra Sheri

[__Kratos__]

One thing you have to get straight is the Qu'ran and the Hadith or Hadeeth. First off whenever I see someone refer to the Qu'ran as the Koran, I know they have a corrupted version. Did you know that many Western people publish versions of the Koran that are slanted to completely take a phrase in the worst possible way?

I actually say koran because it's easier to type. But sadly for your little assuming, I got my koran from cair, one of the biggest pro-muslim groups in the United States.

Second the Hadith.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith

Within Islam itself there is fighting over who wrote the Hadith and the weight of its words. The Hadith was written by the followers of Mohammed and its a set of rules that are to be followed. Most of the oppression of women in Islam comes from interpretation of the Hadith. Just read that link for a basic understanding.

In addition one of the things you are missing in the Qu'ran with regard to women is the way rules were being set up. In other words women were given the right to divorce, child custody issues were dealt with, marriage rights, dowry rights. women's RIGHTS were discussed in the Qu'ran for the first time really in religion. Now many of those rules were corrupted but they weren't written for the reason you say.

You are probably going to ignore this post anyway but I wish you would consider this, The Qu'ran says to do two things before beating the wife. First admonish her, then put her in a separate bed and finally beat her. In this way it actually gets the man to calm down. If you are talking about men that used to beat first and ask questions later, then its a way of warning the woman that she should comply. Not necessarily a good thing by todays standards but religions arose in the time that they arose. Unlike the Bible, they actually have the original writings of Mohammed and you can see as ramster pointed out that it was written giving women desperately needed rights.

When Muslim men follow the Qu'ran the way it was intended the women flourish. But when it is twisted then of course we wind up with Shari law.

I'm going directly from koran though. Muslim men all over read it, it clearly shows in 4:34 that women are less then men.

Very well said mate.

Kratos, what you are doing is just as much hatred all religous text has outdated ideas in them, not to suprising, but you need to look past the crap spewed out by those with personal agendas and bias' Islam is not a religion of hate, my dad who is christian read the Koran 40 years ago and he thought it quite liberal for a religous text.

No body told me where the figure of 10% if Muslims are killers yet. I will take a stand and say that is a complete pile of bull sh** all together and is infact a lie to perpetrait religous hatred.

Outdated ideas, yes but it's the word of their god. Muslims believe that the koran is timeless. So no matter how far the rest of the world goes, islam has to still follow the koran regardless.

I never said 10% where killers, stop putting words in my mouth. I do say however 100% of muslims are potential jihadists.

The reason Mohammed allegedly came is that the beliefs had been corrupted. The way the Qu'ran was written is like this a lot....baby steps. So for example it starts out saying "Don't pray when you are drunk" and then winds up saying "Don't drink"

The process showed the success. If you have an abusive male who was raised in a situation that encouraged him to be violent. If he beats his wife and children and you say "don't beat your wife" then he's going to get defensive. If you say "Don't beat your wife unless you give her a "time out" which is basically what sending her to another bed could be viewed as, it gives a measure of cool down time. It trains the male in a way.

I don't think any of the religious books are the word of God but I do think that Islam is the best among them with regard to how women are treated. Quoting the negative attributes towards women in the Qu'ran totally misses the point. So when someone does this it shows they don't really understand the point of the Qu'ran for women. Kratos is no different than the supporters of Shari law when he shows he can not comprehend the statements but in the most violent way possible.

Doesn't matter if you don't think it's the word of god. Muslims believe it is the word of god. So all of the koran is to be followed.

Women aren't very well treated in the koran. You can quote all the 'good' you really want but it will not cover up the fact that there are many bad verses.

Groups that want to wipe out all religion are as narrow minded, cruel, selfcentered, viscious, intolerant, bullying, dangerous as any radical fundamenatlist relgious group in their philosophy, and just as demented in their desires to dominate over others.

They are not part of a solution to any problem, they are problem themselves.

This I am absolutely positive of. They are a threat to all who love freedom.

I agree. I do though want the downfall and less seriousness of religion. I don't think racism, sexism, discrimination, hatred, ignorance, slavery and more are right. If that makes me 'morally bankrupt' so be it.

[truethat]

You talk alot about what "all Muslims believe" and frankly your ignorance is showing on the matter. I don't think you have a clue what many Muslims believe, let alone "all" and you are simply charged, thinking you can somehow trump everyone by talking about the violence against women.

Not all Muslims follow those passages the way you interpreted them. You interpreted them wrong. If you take all the passages in the Qu'ran regarding women you will see that it speaks to a bigger picture. There are no "good" or "bad" passages in the Qu'ran. Its just your uneducated interpretation of them that causes you to see them this way.

Example

If you read through the traditional delivery procedure of a male in an American Hospital you will see all levels of theories and practices. At some point someone is going to come to the mother and offer to circumcise the baby. If it was you criticizing the procedure you'd be trumpeting all over the place "Look see it says right there to chop off part of the baby's penis! This is what they are told to do" but what you'd be missing is that not all people would elect to do this. Some would and some would not.

It does not ORDER the men to beat their wives. So you are making a ridiculous point. The final act is based on what the husband chooses to do with his wife. You are out of your league speaking on behalf of something you haven't the faintest clue.

[Mattshark]

I never said 10% where killers, stop putting words in my mouth. I do say however 100% of muslims are potential jihadists.

Doesn't matter if you don't think it's the word of god. Muslims believe it is the word of god. So all of the koran is to be followed.

I never said you said that. It is a very disrespectful and biggoted comment you make however. You are confusing politics with religion and you don't seem to able to listen to reason.

However in christian religions is the bible not also supposed to be the word of god? It also advocats hate and violence and various other nasty ideas, yet you don't talk about that in the same way. Is this just not biggotry on your behalf?

[.AKUMA.]

You talk alot about what "all Muslims believe" and frankly your ignorance is showing on the matter. I don't think you have a clue what many Muslims believe, let alone "all" and you are simply charged, thinking you can somehow trump everyone by talking about the violence against women.

Not all Muslims follow those passages the way you interpreted them. You interpreted them wrong. If you take all the passages in the Qu'ran regarding women you will see that it speaks to a bigger picture. There are no "good" or "bad" passages in the Qu'ran. Its just your uneducated interpretation of them that causes you to see them this way.

Example

If you read through the traditional delivery procedure of a male in an American Hospital you will see all levels of theories and practices. At some point someone is going to come to the mother and offer to circumcise the baby. If it was you criticizing the procedure you'd be trumpeting all over the place "Look see it says right there to chop off part of the baby's penis! This is what they are told to do" but what you'd be missing is that not all people would elect to do this. Some would and some would not.

It does not ORDER the men to beat their wives. So you are making a ridiculous point. The final act is based on what the husband chooses to do with his wife. You are out of your league speaking on behalf of something you haven't the faintest clue.

truethat hit the nail right there.

Kratos your anti islam Ranting is getting very annoying.

Truethat knows what he is talking about you simply dont.

[__Kratos__]

You talk alot about what "all Muslims believe" and frankly your ignorance is showing on the matter. I don't think you have a clue what many Muslims believe, let alone "all" and you are simply charged, thinking you can somehow trump everyone by talking about the violence against women.

Not all Muslims follow those passages the way you interpreted them. You interpreted them wrong. If you take all the passages in the Qu'ran regarding women you will see that it speaks to a bigger picture. There are no "good" or "bad" passages in the Qu'ran. Its just your uneducated interpretation of them that causes you to see them this way.

Example

If you read through the traditional delivery procedure of a male in an American Hospital you will see all levels of theories and practices. At some point someone is going to come to the mother and offer to circumcise the baby. If it was you criticizing the procedure you'd be trumpeting all over the place "Look see it says right there to chop off part of the baby's penis! This is what they are told to do" but what you'd be missing is that not all people would elect to do this. Some would and some would not.

It does not ORDER the men to beat their wives. So you are making a ridiculous point. The final act is based on what the husband chooses to do with his wife. You are out of your league speaking on behalf of something you haven't the faintest clue.

So Muslims don't believe in Allah and the koran is the word of Allah?

Actually if you read the first links I posted in this thread, you'll see I'm not going against just the quotes on women but really all those quotes mentioned.

Oh, so now I don't understand It says clearly to beat women, kill infidels and not be friends with nonbelievers, in all those quotes I've posted and even more in the first links I posted... Yet, I am reading those words wrong? Ha ha ha ha ha ha Truely a funny arguement.

No, it's not an order to beat their wifes, I agree. But if they do beat their wifes, it's perfectly fine.

I never said you said that. It is a very disrespectful and biggoted comment you make however. You are confusing politics with religion and you don't seem to able to listen to reason.

However in christian religions is the bible not also supposed to be the word of god? It also advocats hate and violence and various other nasty ideas, yet you don't talk about that in the same way. Is this just not biggotry on your behalf?

No, I'm taking verses out of the muslim holy book, the koran. Read the links on the first post of this thread.

Well christians believe that man wrote the bible that was inspired by god. Muslims believe that the koran is the actual word of Allah. Koran actually means 'recite' from when the angel gabriel recited the koran to Muhammad from Allah.

Even more so, I'm not defending christians in anyway, they have done a whole lot of awful things in the past and even in the present.

Edited January 5, 2007 by __Kratos__

[truethat]

No but the title of your thread suggests this is the ONLY way that Islam is practiced and frankly I don't know anyone who practices it the way you say they do.

The fanatic Muslims are one thing. I do take the Muslim community to task for not being more outspoken.

But you've just flat out stereotyped people. Its kind of a redundant conversation. I'll just say you haven't the faintest clue what you are talking about and its quite evident that you are cherry picking through the book to suit your view.

I won't take this conversation seriously any more.

[__Kratos__]

No but the title of your thread suggests this is the ONLY way that Islam is practiced and frankly I don't know anyone who practices it the way you say they do.

The fanatic Muslims are one thing. I do take the Muslim community to task for not being more outspoken.

But you've just flat out stereotyped people. Its kind of a redundant conversation. I'll just say you haven't the faintest clue what you are talking about and its quite evident that you are cherry picking through the book to suit your view.

I won't take this conversation seriously any more.

Yet, it's perfectly alright according to Allah to hate and all that, that was mentioned.

Oh no, we should only look at the extreme Muslims that follow the koran as it's full and act on it? ... Why? All muslism subscribe to the koran's beliefs, so they can't ignore those passages and niether should we.

I'm not stereotyping them at all, I'm looking at their holy book and pointing out disturbing verses. So you're getting offended that I quote their koran to people?

[truethat]

I'm offended? LOL no darlin I'm not offended.

[exeller]

I'm curious how'd the camel fare in all that!?

If that's a true story about Muhammad, I'd wonder about the camel. I'd imagine in that region transportation was vital to survival. So stealing a mans camel would be tantamount to insuring his demise. Furthermore, cutting off the arms and legs would preclude the need to leave the men in the dessert to starve to death because they would already be dead. Severing the femoral artery in the legs would insure that post haste.

So if it is alleged to be a true story, it's an exaggeration of enormous proportion. Biologically speaking, re: blood loss, making starvation a mute after effect.

Also, consider that in the America's , in the early years of our founding, horse thieves were hanged without trial. Because taking a persons transportation (horse) was tantamount to insuring their death.

Yes you are right, like many other religous stories it was likely exagerated. Though I still believe muhammed had them killed in some sort of way. I'm not sure if that's justice or brutality. In my religion we believe that a human life should be valued above all animal life, so this punishment seems a little harsh for me. Compare the way the justice system treats murderers to the way he treated the thieves. I thought God and his messengers were supposed to be forgiving.