Muqtada al-Sadr has fled Iraq

[supercar]

WASHINGTON — Radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr has left his base in Iraq for Iran, two Bush administration officials said Tuesday.

The officials, speaking on condition of anonymity because they were discussing intelligence activities, cited the new Iraqi security crackdown as a reason for the departure of al-Sadr, who leads one of the largest insurgent militias in Iraq.

The leader of the Mahdi Army, al-Sadr has been an outspoken critic of what he calls the American occupation in Iraq and has repeatedly called for withdrawal of U.S. forces.

While and he and his followers have been linked to much of the sectarian violence in Iraq, al-Sadr has in recent months engaged in political negotiations.

The disclosure of al-Sadr's movements comes as Congress debates President Bush's plan to increase the U.S. troop level in Iraq by up to 21,500.

Al-Sadr's militia is widely seen as the main threat to Iraq's unity and high on the list of targets for the Baghdad security operation.

A ragtag but highly motivated militia that fought U.S. forces twice in 2004, the Mahdi Army is blamed for much of the sectarian strife shaking Iraq since a Shiite shrine was bombed by Sunni militants a year ago. U.S. officials have for months pressed Shiite Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki to move against the militia, but he has so far done little to comply, largely because he does not want to lose al-Sadr's support.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/20...sadr-iran_x.htm

This article says ' U.S. officials have for months pressed Shiite Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki to move against the militia, but he has so far done little to comply, largely because he does not want to lose al-Sadr's support'

Maliki has already announced he is cracking down on militias:

1/18/07

BAGHDAD, Iraq // Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki promised yesterday to crack down on Shiite Muslim militias and Sunni Arab rebels, warning that no one - not even his political ally, Muqtada al-Sadr - will be above the law.

"We will not allow any politicians to interfere with this Baghdad security plan whether they are Sunnis or Shiites, Arabs or Kurds, militias or parties, insurgents or terrorists," al-Maliki said, in a rare and forceful interview.

The prime minister, a Shiite, also warned that once a military crackdown begins, political negotiations will shut down.

"When military operations start in Baghdad, all other tracks will stop," al-Maliki said. "We gave the political side a great chance and we have now to use the authority of the state to impose the law and tackle or confront people who break it."

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationwor...world-headlines

[supercar]

Al-Sadr's political party ended it's boycott of parliament after one of al-Sadr's top aides was arrested. I guess al-Sadr figured he was next and decided to flee:

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) -- U.S. and Iraqi forces arrested a top aide to radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr on Friday in Baghdad, his office said.

Sheik Abdul-Hadi al-Darraji, al-Sadr's media director in Baghdad, was captured during a 2 a.m. raid on a mosque in the eastern neighborhood of Baladiyat, an official in al-Sadr's office said, speaking on condition of anonymity because of security concerns.

The U.S. military said special Iraqi army forces operating with coalition advisers captured a high-level, illegal armed group leader in Baladiyat, but it did not identify the detainee. It said two other suspects were detained by Iraqi forces for further questioning.

The raid comes as Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki has pledged to crack down on Shiite militias as well as Sunni insurgents in a planned security operation to quell the sectarian violence in Baghdad amid concerns that his reluctance to confront the Mahdi Army of his political backer al-Sadr led to the failure of two previous crackdowns.

The U.S. military accused the main suspect of having ties with the commanders of so-called death squads, which have been blamed for many of the killings that have left dozens of bodies, often showing signs of torture, on the streets of Baghdad.

The suspect was detained "based on credible intelligence that he is the leader of illegal armed group punishment committee activity, involving the organized kidnapping, torture and murder of Iraqi civilians," according to the military statement.

It also said he was reportedly involved in the assassination of numerous Iraqi security forces and government officials.

"The suspect allegedly leads various illegal armed group operations and is affiliated with illegal armed group cells targeting Iraqi civilians for sectarian attacks and violence," the statement said, adding he was believed to be affiliated with Baghdad death squad commanders, including Abu Dura, a Shiite militia leader who has gained a reputation for his brutality.

The official and an Iraqi police officer, who also declined to be identified for fear of reprisals, also said one of the mosque's guards was killed in a firefight during the raid that damaged the mosque walls, while four other people who were with the sheik were arrested.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte..._nation/special

Three weeks ago al-Sadr's militia lost 600 men:

About 600 fighters and 16 leaders of the radical Shia militia, the Mehdi Army, have been captured by security forces in Iraq, the US military says.

The statement said 52 operations had been conducted in 45 days targeting the militia, which is loyal to Najaf-based cleric Moqtada Sadr.

Sunni extremists were also the focus of the crackdown, the US military said.

US and Iraqi forces are currently preparing for a broad offensive in the strife-torn Iraqi capital Baghdad.

"These deplorable outrages again underscore the urgent need for all Iraqis to reject violence and together choose the path of peace and reconciliation," Ashraf Qazi said in a statement.

'Responsible for attacks'

The military said five of the Mehdi Army leaders were detained in the pro-Sadr bastion, Sadr City. One senior figure was killed in a raid.

"The detainees are responsible for attacks against the government of Iraq, Iraqi citizens and coalition forces," the US military said.

"Criminal activities by these individuals propagated instability within Iraq and their removal from the social structure is a critical start to providing the Iraqi populace with a safe and stable environment."

In addition, 33 Sunni extremist cell leaders were detained in Baghdad, the statement said.

The statement said they were "responsible for foreign fighter facilitation, car bomb facilitation, and propaganda operations".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6289891.stm

Timeline:

January 19 - top al-Sadr aide arrested

Janaury 21 - al-Sadr agrees to end his party's boycott of parliament

January 23 - 600 al-Sadr fighters captured

February 14 - it is announced al-Sadr has fled Iraq

Edited February 14, 2007 by supercar

[Pinky Floyd]

We should have taken this guy a long time ago. It's just one of a mulititude of the various tactical errors made in this war.

[louie]

Oh yeah this is a victory, whats the death count there now.

[el midgetron]

isnt "Muqtada al-Sadr" arabic for "CIA asset"?

[EmpressStarXVII]

I figure now that he has supposedly left for Iran, give it another two or three weeks and the media will be jumping on the new headlines:

"al-Sadr organizing an Iranian taliban. Bush to take preemptive strike if al-Sadr doesn't leave the country in 24 hours."

[Conspiracy]

what says he wont come back? lol

[secondhand]

I figure now that he has supposedly left for Iran, give it another two or three weeks and the media will be jumping on the new headlines:

"al-Sadr organizing an Iranian taliban. Bush to take preemptive strike if al-Sadr doesn't leave the country in 24 hours."

Exactly what I was going to say, except far more eloquently put.

It's all moving on with crushing predictability isn't it.

EmpressStar, when Doomsday hits I'll see you in the bar "upstairs" for a natter if you like...pencil it in for the next month...

[Raptor Witness]

isnt "Muqtada al-Sadr" arabic for "CIA asset"?

Exactly. This is a joke. It's all about who the U.S. can buy off. Who cares how many people they have killed. Can they be bought, that's the question? That's how the Devil operates. He plays the world's policeman, while supplying more weapons of violence to that world, than anyone else. It's the definition of evil.

[Fluffybunny]

What a joke. Now that he has "fled to iran" there is yet another reason to go into iran...just as with the WMD's and terrorist links of iraq our government will continue to throw out little tidbits here and there and as usual there will be a base of people that will buy it without question. We will invade iran and the same supporters of iraq will still be touting quotes from our government about how evil iran is...they will bounce up and down and justify every bomb and missle...

Somehow I doubt they will actually enlist and really DO something...

It is a very old, very repetative, very sad story. I hate it.

[supercar]

Exactly. This is a joke. It's all about who the U.S. can buy off. Who cares how many people they have killed. Can they be bought, that's the question? That's how the Devil operates. He plays the world's policeman, while supplying more weapons of violence to that world, than anyone else. It's the definition of evil.

This is the definition of evil:

On that video you can hear the radical Muslims shouting with glee as they are chopping off the guy's head. Evil.

[EmpressStarXVII]

I dont know what that picture has to do with Iran, but Supercar, it seems like your mission is to get us to support this war, and look at Islam in a bad way.

I just dont understand why some are just so pushy to get us all to believe such propaganda.

[supercar]

Somehow I doubt they will actually enlist and really DO something...

It is a very old, very repetative, very sad story. I hate it.

On the subject of old repetitive stories:

If you are so supportive of carpet bombing Tehran then I will help get you enlisted; a good budy of mine is a recruiter and can help you get a great job on the front line. I'll even cover the cab fare to get you to your recruiters office

So does that mean that you need a ride to the local recruiter?

My question to him was that if he were so incredibly gungho about the war in iraw(and iran and syria sooner or later) then why doesn't he head to his local recruiter and help out by signing up for a hitch

I would love to see all of the war supporters go pull a tour or two in iraq

To anyone who thinks that this war is so critical to American safety then by all means sign up and due a tour or two

I am not asking everyone to enlist just the really gungho war happy types

Perhaps if you are so confident in our ability to win, you'd like to head down to your local recruiter to sign up for a tour. or two. or three

[supercar]

I dont know what that picture has to do with Iran

And I don't know what this has to do with Muqtada al-Sadr:

He plays the world's policeman, while supplying more weapons of violence to that world, than anyone else. It's the definition of evil.

I just dont understand why some are just so pushy to get us all to believe such propaganda

Propaganda? It's not propaganda when the radical Muslims videotape themselves chopping off some guy's head. It's the truth.

[Fluffybunny]

There is a lot of evil in the world; the pic you posted and that group is just a part of it. A really sad and scary part you will probably never admit to yourself is that our government does evil things too. I've actually been to iraq, kuwait and Saudi Arabia and for the most part the people there are just normal folks wanting to go about living their life in peace. I got to see some of the stuff the US did to iraqis the first time around, and that was back when we were attempting to be civil. I can't imagine what it is like now. There are a crazy small percentage that look for violence and any reason to cause harm to others, just like there are here in the US, that Doesn't mean that an entire nation needs to be invaded and countless thousands of innocents killed in the process to resolve the issue.

Now your government wants you to believe that iran is the new boogeyman. The "evidence" is starting to be compiled. Do some of the people there do bad things? yes, of course; just like a small percentage of every population of every country. I have seen you post every shred of information about how iran/iraq is at fault for this or that(verified or not, it doesn't really matter), leading up to the inevitable attack that bush has less than 2 years to start. Our country has a p*** poor record when it comes to foreign intelligence. This is the part where you usually copy and paste some article about how many democrats approved the iraq invasion as if it were some kind of justification... I am not a democrat or a republican, so I really don't care about what democrat did what, but it is plain to see that the two parties are doing a poor job of running this country and it seems logical to me that we need to do a bit more thinking before we start threatening yet another country. Do we have the military strength to take out the infrastructure of iran? you bet, is there any reason to? nope.

We are at a point where we need to slow the heck down as a nation and give a bit more thought as to what the folks we elected to run our country are doing for/to us.

I can't be the only one who sees the parallel between the buildup before we went into iraq and what is just starting right now, I just can't; it is too obvious. Of course the iranian president is an idiot, but so is ours. Of course there are some degree of people crossing the border from iran to iraq to assist the fight against their enemies. Of course there are problems between our two nations, but the fact that our president is too stubborn to sit down and talk with their president, and would simply rather start a media blitz as to how horrible the guy may be isn't helping the situation. I guess they don't teach diplomacy in texas.

Somehow we have gotten this hair trigger in regards to foreign relations...I have seen it get worse and worse over the years where the amount of offense it takes to invade another country is so little it is disturbing. Of course at this point someone on the board here would post a photo of the twin towers with a bumper sticker quality blurb as justification for the invasion of iraq. (It is disturbing to see how many people still think iraq caused 9/11, but that is a different thread altogether).

I just don't see how people arent just a tad suspicious at the slow buildup of "evidence" towards iran in the media. Doesn't it ring a bell? just a bit familiar?

I personally think our nation(everyone, not just the leadership) needs to slow down and make sure that we know exactly what we are doing before we actually do it. It is going to take decades to recover the kind of respect that the US used to have in the worlds eyes; invading iraq will have a negative impact on us as Americans for far longer than bush will be alive. What a legacy to leave.

[louie]

Supercar what you are doing is now propaganda, trying to make fluffybunny look bad and sway us over. why dont you just get to a recruiters office and do something instead of talking.

[brave_new_world]

War knows no law except that of might. War can only end with non-violence.

[Fluffybunny]

On the subject of old repetitive stories:

Does that mean that you are actually going to go and serve your country then? Come on, you'll love it; you get to fight against evil terrorists and kill bad guys. What more could you ask for? It just seems to me like you would be the perfect candidate for an 11Bravo. Think of how proud you would be. Nice uniforms, good pay, AND you get to save the free world!!! When I served my country I would have loved to have had someone as gungho as you to take point on a patrol in hostile territory. On your time off you could get on your computer in Iraq and come back here and tell me how wrong I am, and since you would be the one with all of the combat experience your opinion would really have a big effect on the young ones here at UM. Sure it could be scary from time to time, but I bet that with as dedicated as you are to creating a democracy in iraq that you could work past the fear of being injured or killed on a regular basis. I know I keep bugging you about it, but I do it out of love for my country; out of all of the people on this forum, it seems like you are the one best qualified and motivated to do the job...Go for it!

Propaganda? It's not propaganda when the radical Muslims videotape themselves chopping off some guy's head. It's the truth.

Actually that would be propaganda too. Read the definition:

prop·a·gan·da –noun

1. information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread widely to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc.

2. the deliberate spreading of such information, rumors, etc.

3. the particular doctrines or principles propagated by an organization or movement.

Propaganda isn't just what THEY do; we are pretty good at it too. You are really talented at it.

[brave_new_world]

We should have taken this guy a long time ago. It's just one of a mulititude of the various tactical errors made in this war.

You once said that the dropping of nuclear weapons on Japan made them a profitable democracy? Well this is only a half truth. They may have become finanically profitable democracy, but they didnt become one through mutual trust but by forced occupation by the american focres. This period of Japan was called "occupied japan". So it wasn't that the war created a democracy in the true sense of the word, it was the occupation that kept japan in it's place and not mutual trust.

There is this big difference. Non-violence changes the heart or conscience of the enemy to make him want to change his ways for the better of himself and his fellows, whereas if you do so by force then you havn't really reached your enemy but have simply subdued him. He might not necessarily see what he has done is wrong, he is simply complying because he is afraid to do otherwise.

Cultural associations

The phrase has been used by many western writers to describe the ability of the Japanese people to maintain dignity in the face of an unavoidable tragedy or injustice, particularly when the circumstances are beyond their control. Historically, it has been applied to situations in which masses of Japanese people as a whole have been made to suffer, including the Allied Occupation of Japan, and the Japanese American Internment.

In Asian American Women: The "Frontiers" Reader, author Linda Trinh Vo states:

The Japanese phrase shikata ga nai, or "it can't be helped," indicates cultural norms over which one has little control... This notion of suffering in part stems from shikata ga nai: failing to follow cultural norms and social conventions led to a life of little choice but endurance of suffering. [1]

The phrase also can have negative connotations, as some may perceive the lack of reaction to adversity as complacence, both to social and political forces. In a Business Week article, a Western businessman says of Japanese people:

He encourages Japanese not to succumb to the shikata ga nai mentality but to get angry and start behaving like citizens. "Japanese people listen to me because I'm always pushing what the possibilities are and how things can change...to ensure positive economic and political prospects..." [2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shikata_ga_nai

Japanese American Internment was the forced removal of approximately 120,000 Japanese and Japanese Americans (62 percent of whom were United States citizens)[1][2] from the West Coast of the United States during World War II. While approximately 10,000 were able to relocate to other parts of the country, the remainder – roughly 110,000 men, women and children – were sent to hastily constructed camps called "War Relocation Centers" in remote portions of the nation's interior.

President Franklin D. Roosevelt authorized the internment with Executive Order 9066, which allowed local military commanders to designate "military areas" as "exclusion zones", from which "any or all persons may be excluded." This power was used to declare that all people of Japanese ancestry were excluded from the entire Pacific coast, including all of California and most of Oregon and Washington, except for those in internment camps.[3] In 1944, the Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of the exclusion, removal, and detention, arguing that it is permissible to curtail the civil rights of a racial group when there is a "pressing public necessity."[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_Internment

Actually pink floyd owe you a thank you. I have learnt about the American internment camps since debating violence against non-violence. So thank you.

Edited February 15, 2007 by brave_new_world

[el midgetron]

I dont know what that picture has to do with Iran, but Supercar, it seems like your mission is to get us to support this war, and look at Islam in a bad way.

Its a CIA opperation and has nothing to do with Iran. The whole thing is staged. Nick Berg (the victom) was in abu ghraib shortly before this video came out. There he wore the same orange jumpsuits, sat in the same white plastic chairs in rooms with the same "cowardly" yellow paint. He was allready dead when his head was cut off (without spilling a drop of blood).

[supercar]

Supercar what you are doing is now propaganda

Actually that would be propaganda too. Read the definition:

prop·a·gan·da –noun

1. information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread widely to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc.

2. the deliberate spreading of such information, rumors, etc.

3. the particular doctrines or principles propagated by an organization or movement.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

Propaganda is a type of message aimed at influencing the opinions or behavior of people. Often, instead of impartially providing information, propaganda can be deliberately misleading, using logical fallacies, which, while sometimes convincing, are not necessarily valid.

What separates propaganda from "normal" communication is in ways by which the message attempts to shape opinion or behavior, which are often subtle and insidious among other characteristics. For example, propaganda is often presented in a way that attempts to deliberately evoke a strong emotion, especially by suggesting illogical (or non-intuitive) relationships between concepts or objects (for instance between a “good” car and an attractive woman or a sex symbol)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda

'Propaganda is a type of message aimed at influencing the opinions or behavior of people'

Am I trying to influence the opinions or behaviour of people? Nope. I'm presenting the facts.

'Propaganda can be deliberately misleading'

Are my posts deliberately misleading. Nope.

'Propaganda is often presented in a way that attempts to deliberately evoke a strong emotion, especially by suggesting illogical (or non-intuitive) relationships between concepts or objects'

Are my posts deliberately trying to provoke a strong emotion? Nope. Am I suggesting illogical relationships between concepts or objects? Nope

Supercar what you are doing is now propaganda, trying to make fluffybunny look bad

Classic case of psychological projection:

In psychology, psychological projection (or projection bias) is a defense mechanism in which one attributes ("projects") to others, one’s own unacceptable or unwanted thoughts or/and emotions.

* "Projection is the opposite defence mechanism to identification. We project our own unpleasant feelings onto someone else and blame them for having thoughts that we really have."

* "A defense mechanism in which the individual attributes to other people impulses and traits that he himself has but cannot accept. It is especially likely to occur when the person lacks insight into his own impulses and traits."

* "Attributing one's own undesirable traits to other people or agencies."

* "The individual perceives in others the motive he denies having himself. Thus the cheat is sure that everyone else is dishonest."

* "A man harboring attractions for a woman would perceive other men as having the same attractions for her."

* "People attribute their own undesirable traits onto others. An individual who unconsciously harbours his or her aggressive/sexual tendencies may then imagine other people acting in an excessively aggressive or sexual way."

* "An individual who possesses malicious characteristics, but who is unwilling to perceive himself as an antagonist, convinces himself that his opponent feels and would act the same way."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

Your claim that I am trying to make Fluffybunny look bad is a subconscious admission on your part that you are trying to make me look bad.

why dont you just get to a recruiters office and do something instead of talking.

Does that mean that you are actually going to go and serve your country then?

A person doesn't have to serve in the military to have a right to express an opinion on the war. Nice try at suppressing free speech.

Now your government wants you to believe that iran is the new boogeyman. The "evidence" is starting to be compiled

The evidence is 'starting' to be compiled? Bush began making the case against Iran is his State of the Union address on January 29, 2002. The evidence started being compiled five years ago.

Edited February 16, 2007 by supercar

[Fluffybunny]

prop·a·gan·da –noun

1. information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread widely to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc.

Supercar, you fit the definition perfectly regardless of how much you don't want to think you do. You are just fooling yourself; no one else is falling for it.

[Leonardo]

'Propaganda is a type of message aimed at influencing the opinions or behavior of people'

Am I trying to influence the opinions or behaviour of people? Nope. I'm presenting the facts.

'Propaganda can be deliberately misleading'

Are my posts deliberately misleading. Nope.

'Propaganda is often presented in a way that attempts to deliberately evoke a strong emotion, especially by suggesting illogical (or non-intuitive) relationships between concepts or objects'

Are my posts deliberately trying to provoke a strong emotion? Nope. Am I suggesting illogical relationships between concepts or objects? Nope

supercar,

It would be a fact to state that al-Sadr has left Iraq (was this for a conference or a holiday?). It is propaganda to state he has 'fled Iraq, this is a victory for US and Iraqi forces.' Facts are presented with no agenda and no bias. To show bias (as you have done) is to misrepresent the facts and this is misleading (are you doing this deliberately?)

Now it is possible to link the US 'surge' initiative and the Iraqi security clampdown to his departure, but in this case you would have phrased your OP as a question and asked for opinions rather than presenting it as triumphalist 'fact'.

Edit:

Reread the articles and it's not even known for sure if al-Sadr has left Iraq. He may have left his Baghdad base but still be in Iraq.

Edited February 16, 2007 by Leonardo

[AROCES]

Supercar, there are other positive things in Iraq that simply does not interest the media. And this is one positive event that as you can see the liberals , anti Bush and anti war gets quite worried about for the worst thing that could happen for them is for Iraq to be successful. You can see clearly how they reacted to this news, it's like NO! NO! NO! it can't be, we are suppose to loose and the insurgents are suppose to win for war is bad.

[el midgetron]

Supercar, there are other positive things in Iraq that simply does not interest the media. And this is one positive event that as you can see the liberals , anti Bush and anti war gets quite worried about for the worst thing that could happen for them is for Iraq to be successful. You can see clearly how they reacted to this news, it's like NO! NO! NO! it can't be, we are suppose to loose and the insurgents are suppose to win for war is bad.

How exactly is the bad guy getting away good news?